Trump Crackdown on "Politicized Science": NASA Climate Division to be Stripped of Funding

President John F. Kennedy in his historic message to a joint session of the Congress, on May 25, 1961 declared, "...I believe this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the Moon and returning him safely to the Earth."

President John F. Kennedy in his historic message to a joint session of the Congress, on May 25, 1961 declared, “…I believe this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the Moon and returning him safely to the Earth.” By NASA (Great Images in NASA Description) [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons

Guest essay by Eric Worrall

Bob Walker, senior campaign adviser to President-elect Donald Trump, has re-affirmed Trump’s commitment to NASA focussing on space exploration, by stating that NASA’s Earth Science Division would be stripped of funding as part of a Trump crackdown on “Politicized Science”.

Trump to scrap Nasa climate research in crackdown on ‘politicized science’

Nasa’s Earth science division is set to be stripped of funding as the president-elect seeks to shift focus away from home in favor of deep space exploration.

Bob Walker, a senior Trump campaign adviser, said there was no need for Nasa to do what he has previously described as “politically correct environmental monitoring”.

“We see Nasa in an exploration role, in deep space research,” Walker told the Guardian. “Earth-centric science is better placed at other agencies where it is their prime mission.

“My guess is that it would be difficult to stop all ongoing Nasa programs but future programs should definitely be placed with other agencies. I believe that climate research is necessary but it has been heavily politicized, which has undermined a lot of the work that researchers have been doing. Mr Trump’s decisions will be based upon solid science, not politicized science.”

Climate scientists at other organizations expressed dismay at the potential gutting of Earth-based research.

Kevin Trenberth, senior scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, said as Nasa provides the scientific community with new instruments and techniques, the elimination of Earth sciences would be “a major setback if not devastating”.

“It could put us back into the ‘dark ages’ of almost the pre-satellite era,” he said. “It would be extremely short sighted.

“We live on planet Earth and there is much to discover, and it is essential to track and monitor many things from space. Information on planet Earth and its atmosphere and oceans is essential for our way of life. Space research is a luxury, Earth observations are essential.

Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/nov/22/nasa-earth-donald-trump-eliminate-climate-change-research

I remember growing up, reading science fiction authors like Larry Niven, Jerry Pournelle and Michael Flynn, about the great battles for funding, about how Senator William Proxmire (D-Wisconsin) did everything in his power to kill American space research.

His reason for doing so? Like Climate Scientist Kevin Trenberth, Senator Proxmire believed Space exploration was an unnecessary luxury, a waste of taxpayer’s funds. Proxmire wanted to strip the NASA budget to fund welfare programmes.

I never imagined back then that the true enemy of NASA’s original deep space mission would strike from within, slowly eating away an ever increasing share of NASA’s internal space budget like a raging parasitic infection, leaving the original shell intact, but quietly transforming NASA from a space exploration agency into a glorified weather programme.

Perhaps Trump will make NASA great again.

Correction (EW): h/t South River Independent, Jon von Briesen – Senator Proxmire was D-Wisconsin, not D-Illinois, he was born in Illinois.

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Glixx Zontar

Let the bells ring out, let the banners Fly!

Greg

NASA : National Aeronautical and Space Agency.
Is see no reason why they should not be used for launching satellites but where did the study of climate and climate modelling ever get in here?
GISS: NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies
where did the study of climate and climate modelling ever get in here?

Don E

Good point. They can launch satellites and let someone else study the data.

Jbird

Should James Hansen be investigated for committing fraud? Oh yeah. If he did not INTEND to commit fraud I guess he can’t be held accountable.

Second-best news I’ve heard all day.

Scott

What was the best if we may ask?

Alan Robertson

Previously got his dates mixed up and his Powerball ticket still has a chance.

Engineering project took a major step forward.

Janice Moore

Congratulations, Michael! Happy for you!

Bryan A

sounds like you finally got your “Engi” in place and are no longer just “neering project”

GISS should be a data delivery organization so others can analyze the RAW data. This would significantly advance Earth science by making data more accessible. NASA has been collecting tons and tons of this data and we’ve already paid for it. All we get to see for it is a bunch of speculative interpretations where a lot of the raw data the speculations are based on is hidden from view.

Robert from oz

I see your NASA have just debunked our (OZ) Malcolm Roberts claim that it manipulated data !
According to the ABC .

“GISS should be a data delivery organization so others can analyze the RAW data. ”
NASA uses NOAA data
If you want raw data go to NOAA
and there are other sources besides NOAA
Skeptics dont even know who collects the data, who processess it and who analyzes it

Brett Keane

@Steven Mosher
November 23, 2016 at 4:21 pm : Ah Mosh, what a delightful chap you are, ever helpful.

Don E

I think he is referring to satellite data.

Retired_Engineer_Jim

Steve, that’s a pretty broad generalization. Many of us know where the data come from, and who “adjusts”, “corrects”, and “homogenizes” it. You are better than Jon Gruber – stop calling us all stupid.

Skeptics dont even know who collects the data, who processess it and who analyzes it
====================
an arts major that can’t even master a spell checker is hardly a credible authority.

Leonard Lane

co2, the “raw data” may have been corrupted to “politically correct climate data, etc.” Once the databases became a tool of politicized science, how will we ever know what they have done to the “raw data”? There may be no “raw data” in many of the NASA databases.

Chris Riley

There could be some efficiencies in having NASA simply collect the data and leave the conversion of the data into disinformation to NOAA and EPA.

SAMURAI

CO2Isnotevil-san:
What REALLY ticked me off was NASA sitting on their Antarctic ICESAT data for 23 years because it showed Antarctic land ice has been growing at 100+ billion tons/yr since1992, which was not conducive to the CAGW narrative of “unprecedented” land ice loss..
NASA funding is a self-licking ice cream cone. The more dire they make CAGW predictions, the more government funding they get…. Not a bad gig if you can get it..
It’s sickening.
NASA went from “one giant leap for mankind” to “one giant cheat of the funding kind” in just 25 years… Houston…. We have a problem…

Todays Daily telegraph UK,24/11/16states ‘Explorers records show Polar Ice is not retreating’ ,but is the same extent as 100 years ago ,from the records of the polar explorers Scott,Amundsen&Shackleton

Griff

Surely the raw data from GISs is already available?

Paul Penrose

Griff,
No. They have already admitted that the original, really raw, unprocessed, unadjusted, unhomoginized, data has been lost. All they have now is processed (or “value added” as they put it), and slightly less processed.

markl

Paul Penrose commented: “…They have already admitted that the original, really raw, unprocessed, unadjusted, unhomoginized, data has been lost….”
It can be restored. Maybe not from their files but it can be restored.

Forest,
Making this even stranger is that the voltage measured by satellite sensors over a cloudless surface is proportional to the surface radiant emissions that corresponds its temperature. When the satellite is over clouds, this is measuring cloud emissions and hence the cloud temperature. All you need to do is a simple predictor to track the surface temperature when covered by clouds.
The LWIR sensors on satellites are tuned to relatively narrow bands in the transparent region of the spectrum. The photons captured by the sensors have passed directly from the surface to space. In principle, once calibrated to a specific surface temperature, the sensor voltage becomes proportional to where the peak emissions are corresponding to the color temperature of the radiation and Wein’s law can be applied to determine that temperature. The color temperature of the radiation leaving the planet corresponds to the temperature of the emissions source, which of course is either the surface or cloud tops (or some combination thereof).
These temperature are much harder to ‘adjust’ and because of full global coverage, there’s no need to homogenize, which is why GISS doesn’t use them for GISSTEMP. Not enough wiggle room to make the data show what they want it to show.

there is no reason that NASA/GISS should be creating a temperature record based on readings collected from surface based thermometers. this has nothing to do with space exploration.
yet that is precisely what GISS under Gavin is doing. building climate models using airport and ship based temperature data.
while at the same time, NASA/GISS IGNORES the satellite based temperature data. WHY? Why does an agency charged with SPACE STUDIES ignore space and study land and sea based thermometer data?

HomeBrewer

Sooner or later we have to leave earth and travel to other solar systems, I guess we won’t think that deep space exploration was a waste of money at that time.

Chimp

Just colonizing and exploiting asteroids would justify the cost.

William Steven Lanier

Please tell me just why we would want to do that. And, if you believe that travel to another solar system will become necessary, shouldn’t essentially all the money be placed into R&D on how to travel at speeds greater than the speed of light. I don’t see too many promising ideas on that front so why do any funding for this lunacy at all. Also please note that this note is coming from a PhD in Aerospace engineering who fully supports hear earth exploration.

HomeBrewer

I’m not a PhD in Aerospace engineering but I don’t think it sounds like a good idea to just accelerate to the speed of light (and perhaps beyond) in a random direction.

Gary Pearse

Dr. Lanier:
Your professors seem to have neglected to teach you about space-time/general relativity. Imagine a 40yr journey (according to the astronaut’s watch) almost at the speed of light (achieving it by accelerating to maintain 1g on board). They accelerate for 10yrs, then decelerate for 10yrs, turn around and come back. They then accelerate as before and decelerate the final 10yrs. When they get back, things on earth have aged about 600 centuries! How is that for a mission?!

C/g is 354 days. Maintaining 1g for a year is hardly possible.

how to travel at speeds greater than the speed of light
======================
Einstein’s relativity (time dilation and length contraction) shows that the speed of light is not a barrier to space exploration. A constant 1 G acceleration space shift can reach the other side of the observable universe within a human lifetime. The 1 G force of “artificial gravity” on the passengers will remain the same as if they were on planet earth.
To the observers on earth, the space ship will appear to take billions of years to make the journey. But to the observer on the ship, the journey will take some 70 years, while the billions of light years traveled will be length contracted to less than 70 light years, such that the ship will always appear to travel at less than the speed of light.
Thus, the speed of light is not the barrier to space travel. The problem is how to generate sufficient energy to maintain 1 G acceleration, and the fact that you can never return to your “own” time, due to time dilation. While you age some 70 years, the earth will have aged billions of years.

Twobob

I hear that here the minerals needed for expansion are finite.
I hear that out there they are infinite.
I hear a cart before a horse here.

Paul Penrose

Dr. Lanier,
I have no idea where you got the idea that anybody in this conversation was talking about travel to other solar systems, so as far as I’m concerned, that is a non sequitur. As far as exploring our own solar system, that makes sense to me. We know it is only a matter of when, not if, a large object will show up on a collision course with our planet. If that happens, we need the technology to divert it. Such technology will not be developed by just puttering around in earth orbit. And, if we are unable to divert it, we need to have viable colonies off world in order for the human race to survive. For these reasons alone I support exploration of our solar system and eventual colonization of other celestial bodies.

AndyG55

Gavin, what did you say ?? Gav………….. ? ROFLMAO !!!

Chimp

I’d call it a GIGO computer gaming scam rather than a weather program.

colin smith

Gavin In, Garbage Out?

schitzree

>¿<
°
I'm going to have to remember that one ^¿^

joelobryan

I think it is actually the other way around.
The data was “Gavin’d”
But that competes with Karlization, comes into ay before the Gavin transformation.
Just as the voters were Gruber’d in 2012. The GISTEMP record is Karlized, then Gavind. The product is thus total garbage while worth $Trillions to the Green Blob.

dgp

The only reason NASA got into weather and climate was the effect on launches and flights. They don’t need to duplicate the work of NOAA.

Mark Luhman

Exactly!

RAH

They also study the atmosphere, weather, and climate on earth to help them understand more about atmospheres, weather and climate on other planets. Just as studying geology on earth helps them to understand what they are seeing on the surface of Mars and the various moons of the gas giants. And THAT is the application where the GISS climate and weather should have stayed just as the very name Goddard Institute for Space Studies implies. But it didn’t. So the way I see it, the administrative/legal question is how does one permanently limit the NASA climate and weather studies to only those areas directly aimed at advancing space programs and planetary sciences and get them and keep them out of the earth climate scam business for good?

Or Climate scaremongering is where the money was. Could be Gaia-ism too.

About darn time. NASA is not even needed to get the birds on orbit these days.

Latitude

What is this space and weather stuff?….
…I thought NASA’s main objective was muslim outreach
http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2010/aug/01/michael-sullivan/michael-sullivan-says-nasa-administrator-said-main/
(hey Twinbreath….suck it up)

Scott

LOL! +100

Gunga Din

Obama’s NASA appears to spend a bit to much time and money on the star of the “Crescent of Embrace”.
(Where were those Freedom From Religion Foundation guys when this was going down?)

Andrew

Hmmm, quite so. He specifically said “Muslim” countries. I find it useful to change one word and see how it reads – “Prez Trump said NASA’s charter is to reach out to Christian nations blah blah historical contribution to maths and science, for example Newton, Galileo…”

Well you could say that the two cultures are a world apart, so it seems quite natural for NASA to take up the challenge.

There are other US government agencies that do very much the same thing as NASA, but NASA was a sily bit of politics to start with, so as to not “millitarize space”. The Defense department and the CIA/NRO also operate satellites, and overlap what NASA and NOAA also do as far as earth surveilliance and weather reporting.

Janice Moore

It’s a travesty. NOT! Bwah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, haaaaaaaaaaaa!
“Yaaaaaay! ……….. Hello, Bedford Falls!…….. Merry Christmas!”
Jimmy Stewart as George Bailey, “It’s a Wonderful Life”

(youtube)

Janice Moore

But, guess who will end up in jail, Potterinton — heh.

afonzarelli

Ms M, ever see the remake with marlo thomas and cloris leachman as the angel? (“it happened one christmas”)…

Janice Moore

I think I saw part of it. They are good actors, but, the original movie is my favorite movie in the world and, thus, no other version stands a chance against it. I have to let a few years pass, now, between viewings, I know it so well! LOVE that movie! My brother and have fun tossing lines back and forth. “Get this! I’m handin’ out wings” “Oh, why don’t you go away and stop annoying people.” (likely imperfectly recalled, but, still fun! 🙂 )

CodeTech

I have the HD colorized version. That’s as far as a remake could possibly go and still be worth watching.

Janice Moore

Well, CodeTech, that’s all well and good (lol, glad to know you like that show a lot, too 🙂 ).
But, there is something mysteriously lovely about black and white in certain movies that makes them more “magical” for me. “It’s a Wonderful Life” is one of them. Can’t put it into words. It just is.

afonzarelli

my scant memory of it is that leachman made me laugh so hard that my face hurt… (☺)

I think NASA’s annual budget is about $19.3 bn. Assuming they launch 1 weather satellite per year costing $300 million (including launch), that should leave them with $19 bn for actual space exploration. Shouldn’t government climate scientists all be employed by National Center for Atmospheric Research, anyhow? Certainly no need for NASA to employ any climate modelers.

stan robertson

NCAR is just as bad with data manipulation as GISS.

Green Sand

Narrow it down. keep narrowing it down. At present we have adjustment upon adjustment, who knows who does what and why. So lets take as many pout of the loop as we can. For decades I have advocated a data base war. They used to fight as to which method was the best. Now they just fight to ensure they all say them same. In the real commercial world there is a word for it ‘cartel’ – needs breaking, quickly!

GISS doesnt adjust data, except for UHI which COOLS the record

Janice Moore

GISS adjusts data. Please see the following:

*** The pristine data from Mohonk Lake are subject to a number of quality control and homogeneity testing and adjustment procedures. First, data is checked against a number of quality control tests, primarily to eliminate gross transcription errors. Next, monthly averages are calculated from the TMIN and TMAX values. This is straightforward when both values exist for all days in a month, but in the case of Mohonk Lake there are a number of months early in the record with several missing TMIN and/or TMAX values. Nevertheless, NOAA seems capable of creating an average temperature for many of those months. The result is referred to as the “Areal data”. … {Then, o}f course, more NOAA adjustments are needed. ***
Now GISS wants to use the data, but the NOAA adjustments are not quite what they are looking for. So what do they do? They estimate the NOAA adjustments and back them out! *** Even supposedly pristine data cannot escape the adjustment process.

(Source John Goetz, https://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/23/adjusting-pristine-data/ )
Sample Comment:
Mike Bryant: “Thanks John Goetz. This is just mind-boggling. Of course, I’ve read of these adjustments, but to see them laid out like this…”
(https://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/09/23/adjusting-pristine-data/#comment-42485 )

Robert W Turner

“The space agency’s budget includes more than $2 billion for its Earth Science Mission Directorate for global warming science, which is specifically allocated to improve climate modeling, weather prediction and natural hazard mitigation. In comparison, NASA’s other functions, such as astrophysics and space technology, are only getting a mere $781.5 and $826.7 million, respectively, in the budget proposal.”
https://www.cfact.org/2016/02/11/obamas-nasa-budget-is-all-about-global-warming-not-space/

Hivemind

“…NASA’s annual budget is about $19.3 bn.”
Interestingly, Australia’s welfare budget is about $20 B. So if we stopped paying for all the worthless mouths, we would have enough money for a space programme. I’d vote for that.

Andrew

Really? You’re happy to starve a 90yo WWII veteran, or a person not working temporarily after being crashed into by a drunk driver shattering their legs?
You’re happy to deal with the level of crime that would result as unemployed youth fight to survive?
And considering NASA can’t lift a man above 36000′ in their 747, that $US15bn (I assume you won’t want the climate hoax and Muslim outreach functions) won’t buy you much. You would also find Oz a poor location given it’s too ft from the equator.

Michael J. Dunn

Andrew, about half of Australia is closer to the equator than Cape Canaveral. Invest in an atlas.

Janice Moore

What, Me? Worrying? Not. 🙂

An open mind about climate science will lead one to the inevitable truth that the effect CO2 emissions have on the climate, while finite, is too small to be obsessing about. When he says he will have an open mind, I suspect this is in contrast to the closed minded alarmists. This is only good news, as it’s clear he wants to rely on scientific principles to lead the way followed by a cost benefit analysis.

charles nelson

Agreed!
There’s more than one way to skin a cat….as my old Gran used to say!

rogerthesurf

axolotl 🙂

rogerthesurf
Janice Moore

Are you MAD, Roger? lololo Delightful poem. Thanks for sharing.

Janice Moore

And, Roger, thanks for picking up on the MAD deal. Soon after I posted above, I nearly replied to myself, “And I am not mad.” But, was hoping someone would enjoy my “set up” — you went above and beyond!

Robert W Turner

That link isn’t https so the only thing I’d worry about is clicking the link.

Me

Why?

Bubba Cow

Me – just check for yourself – https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policies/
and appreciate that the Donald, like his son-in-law, is not giving away the game before the whistle.

Me

Thanks hope you’re right

Steamboat McGoo

” Donald, like his son-in-law, is not giving away the game before the whistle. ”
Exactly. See also his remarks about a Hillary Prosecution, The Wall, O’BuggerCare, etc.
He’s clearly (and effectively) coaching his words – like any world-class negotiator – to remain non-committal until he FULLY studies the subject and listens to his team of advisors. I am liking what I see, so far.

Latitude

Media falsely spins Trump’s NYT climate comments – Trump cited Climategate, restated skepticism of ‘global warming’ – Read full transcript
http://www.climatedepot.com/2016/11/23/fake-news-update-media-falsely-spins-trumps-climate-comments-read-full-nyt-transcript/

John of Cloverdale, WA, Australia

First I knew Don Trump’s uncle was a MIT engineering professor involved in X Ray and Nuclear research. No wonder he has respect for real science and scepticism.

John M. Ware

That’s a scare story, put out after Trump’s interview with the New York Times. The interviewers tried several times to get Trump to change his mind and support the Paris agreement, but he would merely say, “I’ll be thinking about it” and go on to topics of higher concern, such as golf courses. He was dangling the NYT reporters in mid-air, making them wait for what turned out to be nothing; he never changed his stance, just said he’d think about it, which gained him time to get on to important things like appointing more people to more positions. I don’t expect DT to abandon his stated objectives.

RAH

The fact that during it’s limited time with the president elect that the NYT spent so much time and energy on the subject when there are so many other issues to talk about is a very indicative of just how central the climate change scam is in the scheme of the one world government types

Janice Moore

Up next: the climate division of NOAA! lolololol Oh, BOY. Christmas — every — day!

Janice Moore

Just read below — Correction: “… climate division except for UAH satellite temp. program …” !

It is an embarrassment that the nation that landed man on the moon in the orbit 240.000 miles away, has to depend on Russia to get their scientist to the ISS orbit at just over 220 miles.

So the Earth and Solar sensing activities will be shifted to NOAA . Who else ?
Still highly politicized , but nothing could be as anti-science as GISS .

jclarke341

How much money have we spent in space? ZERO!!! All the money was spent on Earth to send men and machines into space. It went to individuals and companies that had creative genius and technical know-how. It promoted innovation, intelligence, exceptional ability and imagination. It created a vision of America that was positive and forward thinking. It encouraged young children to dream and study, in the hopes that one day they might walk on the moon or Mars, or maybe even travel to the stars. It has always been money well spent. The benefits to the rest of us, just in technical advances alone, are incalculable.
On the other hand, the welfare state and man-made climate change are all about politicians garnering more power. The welfare state creates a dysfunctional co-dependent relationship between whole segments of society, and is destined to cause the same kind of strife as co-dependency does in individual relationships – only on a massive, national scale. Man-made climate change is not a threat to people who can put men on the moon and bring them back again. Such people can easily find solutions to problems and even advantages to a few degrees warming over a hundred years. Too bad the warming isn’t going to happen.

+100. the surest way to destroy people is to give them money for not working.

jsuther2013

Good news at last. Give the boot to that arrogant manipulative barsteward whose name must not be mentioned.

willhaas

The science is settled so there is no need to spend money researching it any longer. In their first report the IPCC published a wide range of possible values for the climate sensivity of CO2. In their last report the IPCC published the exact same values. So after more than two decades of effort the IPCC has learned nothing new that would allow them to narrow or change the range of their guesses one iota. Because the IPCC has been totally ineffective, funding for them needs to stop and the organization needs to be desolved.

SkepticGoneWild

Gavin will have to sit around and play with his abacus.

Scott

Hey Gavin, about that resignation? Do us all a favor and give us a nice Christmas present….

Lance

Lump of Hansen coal….

gnome

You’ll be amazed at how he suddenly becomes indispensable. He’d love to resign in protest but the world needs him to go on suffering.

Ill Tempered Klavier

He may soon be in charge of investigating sea level rise in Wyoming :):)

Max Photon

I’m triggered.

TLM

I see no harm in NASA launching Earth observation satellites and delivering data, but the interpretation of that data should not be in the hands of directly state / federal run institutions (indirect funding of Universities obviously necessary).
I agree that climate science has become far too politicised, as have reports on the subject in the media. Listening to climate related stories on the BBC just makes me cringe. People commenting on the Trump election are described either as “climate deniers” (what is that??) or “pro-science”. The implication being that anybody who has any doubts about the inevitable and imminent immolation of the Earth in a global warming catastrophe is somehow “anti-science” (again – what does that mean?).
I could not be more “pro-science” if I tried. I am not a scientist myself but am an avid reader of the New Scientist and other popular science websites. I would also consider myself to be in most respects an environmentalist as, like most, I am against the destruction of forests, pollution of rivers and sea, despoilation of wild habitats, hunting species to extinction etc etc.
My politics is centrist / libertarian (hence way left of most here!) so am continually frustrated at having to agree with populist right-wing nutjobs like Trump, Farage and co (ducks to avoid major flames) rather than those whose opinions I would otherwise generally agree with.
Anybody else like me out there?

Griff

Well these people analysed the surface temp data, paid for by skeptic money and found it stood up, there was no UHI bias and that humans were warming the planet.
How many more independent investigations finding the data valid do we need?
http://berkeleyearth.org/summary-of-findings/

TLM

Yep, they found that the atmosphere has got warmer. So what? The globe has been warming gradually since the end of the little ice age. Anyway, the magnitude of the warming is not really the big issue. The real bones of contention are:
What is causing the warming (how much of it is due to CO2 emmissions and how much is natural variation / cycles)?
What is the sensitivity of the global average air temperature to rising CO2?
What is the sign and extent of cloud feedbacks?
Why is there no tropical tropospheric hot spot?
Why is there no increase in catastrophic weather events like we were promised? And, biggest of all
Is ploughing gazillions of dollars into windmills and solar panels going to make any difference?
My reading of all this is that most of the warming is natural variation, sensitivity on latest research seems to be more in the order of 1-2c per doubling – well short of catastrophic, cloud feedbacks are probably neutral or maybe even negative, the hot spot does not exist because the models that predicted it are flawed, the weather will carry on much as it always has and windmills and solar panels probably make no difference and may even make the problem worse as we need more gas fired power plants to fill in the gaps in supply.
If we need to do anything it is to improve energy efficiency – which is usually self-funding as it saves lots of cash rather than costing it. My house has all LED bulbs and lots of insulation, all paid back within two years.
We need more empirical research and less computer model projections. We certainly do not need to be making massive budget policy decisions based on seriously flawed model based climate projections.

Griff, you may have believed Mueller was a skeptic.
However his track record in science (with the exception of the lecture lambasting Mann and Jones which in hindsight was an obvious “setup” for things to come) and more importantly his commercial interests with his daughter showed he was a true and invested alarmist.

Anybody else like me out there?
Me. I don’t believe in polluting our own backyard, but I don’t buy into the Chicken Little crap. I’ve seen too much of it in my short lifetime to even bother.
NASA should never have gotten into climate science beyond studying the Earth to apply it to other planets. Weather, climate…etc. all of that HAS an agency–NOAA. Not saying the two couldn’t work together or collaborate–i.e. NASA builds the satellites and launches them for NOAA..but NASA shouldn’t be interpreting those results. That is NOAA’s job.
Why do I feel as if NOAA collectively let out a sigh of relief at Trump’s announcement? Yea! We get to do OUR jobs! kind of thing.
As for Trump, I do agree with him on the politicized science of climate change. I am also finding I partially agree with him on a lot of his other less “key” issues that were obscured during the hate race to the POTUS seat. I am cautiously optimistic about the man. But I do agree with him completely on this issue.

Robert W Turner

I assume this will eventually apply to ecological research by the USGS as well. I’m sure there are other examples of politicized science that could save a lot of money if scrapped.

Bill Illis

Fixing NASA is one thing, but this whole mess is one big mess.
$10.0 billion right there. Everybody’s in on it.
http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/671057.jpg
Note there was an earlier version of this arrangement that made even less sense.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/usgao/19149829681/

bobl

Bill, so there is your answer.
To President Elect Trump:
Take this mess, in the name of efficiency take all the climate activities and house it in it’s own agency or maybe roll it into the DOE – take all the members out of their departments and rehome them there. At that point you have a single budget line item to manage. Rebuild the climate division with real (sceptical) scientists and engineers with a no disadvantage mandate. Sack anyone who refuses to debate science.
Extract the USA from and defund the UNFCCC and the UNHRC shifting that UNHRC funding to a revitalised red cross. Defund any city that donates to ICLEI or tries to skirt the withdrawal from Paris by independently joining the Paris Accord by the projected amount the accord will damage the economy. Cite the afore created climate department as consolidating US effort on climate.
Split out climate science grants from the NSF and establish a subcommittee within the NSF to handle funding requests mentioning climate change – ensure there is an appropriate separate budget line item for these projects. Establish strings attachments that climate NSF grants only go to projects that have at least 50% industry funding to make sure the research is economically sensible. Reserve a small amount maybe only 5% for pure research – after all the science is settled and incontrovertible didn’t you know.
Repeal subsidies for noncompetitive energy technologies, defund any states by the amount they spend on any new subsidies taking care not to break the contracts they already have with consumers – after all the people of the nation entered into these subsidised agreements in good faith, You don’t want to hurt the citizenry.
Discontinue aid to any countries that spend US dollars on climate change mitigation. Real adaptation (eg Cyclone shelters are OK though).
Reverse Obama’s ban on building Coal Power stations in third world nations
Redirect the USA foreign aid program. Start a massive building program of coal mining and associated electricity networks in Africa on a build/operate basis. Alleviating poverty is one of the USAs best ways stopping terrorism in the process you will build weath and customers for American products.
Take the 100 Billion you just saved with all this and make America great again – make sure you send me a proportion equal to CO2 in the atmosphere just 400ppm or 0.04% as royalty for the ideas.
Regards
Bob

Rhoda R

Bob, those are some very sensible suggestions. Mr. Trump has a website where citizens are encouraged to present ideas – have you passed your ideas on because they should be considered by the Trump team.

the red cross is one of the most corrupt NGOs on the planet. an apparat worthy of the old soviet.

Steamboat McGoo

What Rhoda said! +100

James Fosser

A great move by President Trump would be to tell the UN to get out and go somewhere like Paris or Harare!

Mike the Morlock

bobl November 23, 2016 at 3:33 pm
Defund any city that donates to ICLEI or tries to skirt the withdrawal from Paris by independently joining the Paris Accord by the projected amount the accord will damage the economy.”
O’l number three is the deal breaker, the “No State Shall” right in the beginning of the paragraph kind of makes it clear.
Section 10
1: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
2: No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it’s inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.
3: No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.
So no bobl, you don’t mess with any defunding, you send a nice note telling the city fathers to stop or the next communication will be from United States Marshals. And don’t forget to add the customary “Thank you for your co-operation” in closing.
Oh and another treaty we never signed, US Gov can still issue “Letters of Marque and Reprisal”
Now wouldn’t that be fun, getting some congressman to slip it in on a “ear mark” to a bill.
Anyway, too many of the self righteous do not realize that the founding fathers foresaw what types of shenanigans some scoundrels might try to impose on the Republic.
michael

bobl

Rhoda, I’m not a citizen of the USA, I’m a legal non-citizen IE: I live in my own country but you are welcome to submit this in my stead -In return when you get the head swamp drainer job in the Trump Admin don’t forget us little guys…
One more piece of advice to President Elect Trump – Anthony would be nice slipped in as Gavin’s Boss in NASA – would help with your diversity numbers too!
Live long and prosper Rhoda… Corny but what a sentiment!

bobl

To Mike the Morelock.
Despite the US constitution individuals do make agreements with organisations like ICLEI and generally you can’t do anything except tighten the money strings. If the admin sees this then they should remove the funding being wasted on the green boondoggles and let the city find their own money to waste. The Trump admin should do both things, enforce the constitution and defund waste.
Here in Oz for example you have always had a right to groundwater, recently my state started to meter and charge for groundwater which is a theft of a traditional right, it should have been compensated but wasn’t and they will get away with it until someone with the cash takes it to the supreme court. Likewise a lot of what your elected officials do is bluff – look at the Paris Agreement executive ratification completely illegal by my reading – it’s all bluff.

Thank you. He must cut the funding because we need fk stared over.

bobl

@barnyard boss, I did say revitalised, but it doesn’t matter use any transparent NGO you like. No the Clinton Foundation doesn’t count as a transparent organisation. I don’t really care provided they are accountable to someone and have to justify where the money goes – as the UNHRC is particularly NOT!

There is some value in climate science but unfortunately we have to start over. The existing “science” has a completely wrong idea of how to do science and is off in the completely wrong direction.
We don’t need to study computer models of climate. This is a completely impossible path. Everybody spent studying that must be fired. We need to focus on basic science. We need to think about how to prove assumptions they take for granted.
The first step will be to fire everyone involved in the current study and hire from scratch wgain based on real scientific people who don’t Have any political bias and aren’t trying to save the earth but trying to actually figure out how nature works.

Roger Knights

Here’s the link to Trump’s suggestion box, mentioned by Rhoda (click “Share your ideas”):
https://www.greatagain.gov

R. Shearer

And hundreds of $millions at least is spent on travel. NASA and NOAA scientists are among the top 1% emitters of CO2 in that regard.

OMG Bill! An org chart of a swamp.

Chimp

Right you are!
Need to drain the whole swamp and turn the alligators into shoes, belts and handbags.

The Guardian article is very very vague on who said what when. They quote Walked as ” said there was no need for Nasa to do what he has previously described as “politically correct environmental monitoring”.”
When and under what circumstances Walker said other things quoted., as “told the Guardian” is not clear.
I’m not all that sure that this is news.

the Space Shuttle was a program without a real mission and a waste of money. the Space Station is a marginal science research facility with little payback. If 5 people make it to Mars and back by the end of this century I would be surprised (although long gone). Mars will never be colonized. Man will never travel to any other solar system. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with believing there are real limitations in space travel and exploration. The NASA/climate science link is an attempt by vested interests to keep it relevant and the budget growing.

Latitude

I tend to agree with you dave……we’re not that advanced
Face it….we got to those places by strapping an explosion on their butts

michael hart

Before Mars, they should set a prize for how long a bunch of people can live in a sealed capsule in Antarctica with strictly limited resources and no hope of quick re-supply in the event of an emergency. That is, unlike Biosphere 2, that silly experiment in a greenhouse in the Arizona desert where the wild excursions in imagination quickly came up against reality and they were effectively able to ask for pizza deliveries.

@ Michael hart, I believe they did try something like that in Russia. That had people live in isolation for one year I think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500

“I don’t think there’s anything wrong with believing there are real limitations in space travel and exploration.”
The main thing that’s limiting us today is the danger and economics of chemical rockets, reusable or not. Once we figure out how to use EM energy to manipulate space-time, the economics will change dramatically and the danger will drop as well. While it’s fine to be skeptical about whether or not this is practical physics tells us that it’s a theoretical possibility. Even General Relativity infers some kind of relationship between EM energy and space-time curvature. If only we knew the stress energy tensor representation of a photon. Oh wait, we do …

bobl

I agree, it’s possible. For example the speed of light is not an absolute, light travels at different speeds depending on permittivity of the medium it travels through. Think of permittivity as a drag/friction on energy. The permittivity of free space ε0 = 8.8541878176.. × 10−12 F/m. If there was a way to reduce the permittivity of free space then you would theoretically speed up any electromagnetic wave travelling through that space. (Compress space), by successively compressing space, moving through it and then expanding space (even a mm at a time) one can warp from place to place. Do it fast enough and you have a space compression (warp) drive.
Now how can we lower the permittivity of space, well I propose that if you can suppress the zero point flux in a space then that space will collapse (compress) under the pressure of the zero point field outside the void. Can that be done, YES, there are known ways as this is what is currently thought to cause the Casmir Effect.
As surprising as this sounds it has some logic support, when we add mass to space then we bend it (stretch it), removing mass/energy from space then should logically compress space. The only mass/energy to remove is the Zero point virtual flux.
This theory (speculation) does lead to an odd thought, propagation of energy can be represented as waves and particles, what if the whole of existence is particle based, and the movement of energy is actually instantaneous through the voids between the particles of the zero point flux, that is the voids don’t exist in a traditional sense, then light impinging on the beginning of a void emerges instantaneously out the other side, the speed being reduced by the drag of the zero point field. That is the density of the particles in the zero point flux is what sets the maximum speed of light. Near a black hole however gravity clears out the zero point field and light can warp across from the event horizon causing a “Black hole” in space.
Of course this is somewhat theoretical and is probably completely wrong but it gives me hope of a viable warp drive some day…

bobl,
“Now how can we lower the permittivity of space,”
Photons seem to do this, although its accompanied with an equal and opposite increase in the permeability and the amount that it’s changed by is the fine structure constant. The permittivity is about 1/a (137) times lower, while the permeability is about 137 times larger than the equivalent free space occupied by the photon, thus the speed of light is unchanged 1/sqrt(e0u0) and only the characteristic impedance sqrt(u0/e0) will change. In effect the ‘Q’ of a photon’s equivalent resonant circuit relative to the space-time it’s occupying is 1/a.
To derive this, model a photon as a resonant LC circuit, constrained by E=hv and the unit charge. Given that the resonant frequency is 1/sqrt(LC), the energy stored in a capacitor is q^2 / 2C and the velocity is c, the required L and C are easily determined and the resulting impedance at resonance is sqrt(L/C). This tells us that the fine structure constant the ratio of 2 impedances. One is the impedance of free space and the other is the resonant impedance of the aforementioned LC circuit model of a photon. This is about 52K ohms and calculated exactly as, Zp = 2h/q^2 = sqrt(L/C) where the fine structure constant is calculated as, a = Zo/Zp.
Since L and C are functions of geometry, e0 and u0, the only way to modify the resulting L and C so that it conforms to the requirements of Maxwell’s equations (a resonant LC circuit) is to modify the geometry, which effectively requires both curving and un-curving the space-time occupied by the photon relative to the space-time the photon is travelling through and a scalar metric of this curvature is the fine structure constant.
It’s also kind of cool that the importance of the fine structure constant as it unites mass and charge jumps out when you create a system of natural units where the distance unit is the Compton wavelength, the time unit is the Compton period, the charge unit is the charge of an electron and the mass unit is the mass of an electron, the physical constants, u0, e0, c, Z0, Zp, Me, q, h and the Compton frequency, wavelength and period are all either 1, 2 or functions of the fine structure constant. This is not completely surprising since the fine structure constant is a function of h, q and c and u0, but what is interesting is that Me is in the mix and that while we often consider the fine structure constant to be a measure of the strength of EM interactions, it also units EM to mass and space-time curvature.
The counter argument is that photons modelled as a point in space-time don’t obey Maxwell’s equation precisely because of the aforementioned inconsistency with the required L and C. This is really a consequence of when you take a snapshot of a photon at a point in space-time, there’s not enough information to determine its frequency or wavelength. You must look either across time or space. If you consider the photon a 4-d object that spans time and space as a smear proportional to its period and wavelength which is projected into our 3-d perception as a point and explain the inconsistency as a manifestation of the space-time curvature representation of a photon, it all makes perfect sense.
With this model, the photon propels itself by falling into a local curvature gradient, which is one way some have proposed that warp drive might work. If you can make your craft produce a bubble of space-time curvature and fall into a space-time curvature gradient, you have warp drive and it seems that the photon is the existence proof that this is possible and indicates that the energies required are manageable. In other words, warp drive makes your craft look like a photon to the rest of the Universe.
This hypothesis also results in an a few interesting symmetries, one is that the strong force is complementary to the force of gravity (weird, but not unexpected). Another is that matter curves space while charge curves time (negative charge is curved into the past while positive charge is curved into the future, both by half a Compton period), but since space and time are connected through the speed of light, both curve space-time. A corresponding model of particles, where the curved space is on the outside and the un-curved space is on its inside and where anti-particles are the opposite can explain what happens to the space-time curvature (gravity) of matter when it’s annihilated. It’s still there and simply reorganized into photons.

Germinio

“once we figure out how to use EM energy to manipulate space-time” is like saying
“once we learn magic”. There is no experimental or theoretical evidence that such a
thing is possible.

“once we learn magic”
What is technology to some would be magic to a less technologically advanced civilization. Cell phones, tablets, pc’s and even the Internet as we now know it would have been considered magic just 50 years ago and much of the technology we have today wasn’t even in the realm of the science fiction of the day.
You are wrong about the theoretical possibility, but on the experimental side, nobody’s been able to conceive the definitive experiment yet, not that there aren’t some ideas out there …

bobl, I like your thinking, I am no good at that sort of hard science but I have always been fascinated by the same thoughts about light, quantum particles and even our thought process. That thought process is instantaneous, all we do is look at a picture and there we are. Keep it up, I like it.

Brett Keane

@ asybot
November 23, 2016 at 6:04 pm: Stalin did a lot of that sort of experiment to scores of millions. Their bones are on the Steppe.

bobl

co2isnotevil, A rather interesting treatment though what you write fits with what we see, That mass can only increase impedance and not reduce it. That is we can only slow light we cant speed it up. From this I imply that mass (and per your discussion photons) can only stretch space where as for a warp drive we need to compress space – this would require anti-energy or antimatter. We know from Quantum mechanics that it is possible that the universe is seething with particle-antiparticle pairs which is the implied zero point flux, so only on average space is empty. What happens if we suppress the particle-antiparticle flux? Well the Casmir Force implies that there is a force created between the objects, a space-time distortion (compression) occurs that creates a gravitational well forcing the two plates together. I’d wager that the geometric symmetry was broken and the impedance lowered.
Just a little theory of mine.

bobl,
“From this I imply that mass (and per your discussion photons) can only stretch space where as for a warp drive we need to compress space – this would require anti-energy or antimatter.”
My hypothesis (speculative) is that photons both stretch and compress space-time in equal and opposite amounts consequential to a space-time resonance quantified by the Compton frequency and the fine structure constant. For a warp drive, you compress and expand space-time locally around your craft and fall into the compressed space-time in your future leaving the decompressed space-time of your past in your wake. In effect, you make a tiny wormhole that connects a point in time a small amount in the future to one a small amount in the past and ‘tunnel’ through space-time bypassing most of time as you traverse through space while dragging this little wormhole with you.
The requirement for large negative energy/negative mass arises from the singularity model of particles (QCD) relative to space-time curvature (GR) which implies that warping space-time requires you to act on the entire Universe. If instead, the particle singularity is stretched into a surface of space at a single point in time (similar to how string theory works), where the uncurved space is on the inside, the infinities go away, the ‘negative energy’ is already there, neither GR nor QCD breaks, it explains what happens to gravity (curvature) when particles and anti-particles annihilate each other and to warp space-time, net energy only needs to applied locally instead of to the entire Universe. GR now becomes the unified field theory that Einstein thought it could become. With this model, particles contain equal and opposite amounts of curved and uncurved space-time, where the curved space-time on the outside overlaps with the curved components of everything else (gravity) and the uncurved space on the inside is isolated from all other uncurved space (except within atomic nuclei) and which seems to manifest the strong force (anti-particles flip the roles of curved and uncurved). Forces and energy arises because space-time intrinsically resists being curved or uncurved and because curved space-time and uncurved space-time are separated in time, they can not trivially cancel each other out. Photons present curved and uncurved space-time equally to the Universe and as a result are massless relative to the containing Universe. Charge introduces a caveat where negatively charged particles are curved a bit into the past, while positively charged particles are curved a bit into the future (in both cases by half a Compton period). Since photons exist both a little in the past and a little in the future, they can effectively manifest both a positive and negative charge.
The boundary between the curved component and the ‘uncurved’ component that stretches a point in space-time into a surface of space at a point in time can trace its origin back to the nothingness that preceded the Big Bang. The arrow of time originates at this boundary, where the past is outside and all possible futures are on the inside. In this model, the arrow of time is an irreversible filter that selects one future from all possible futures and operates independently for each particle, where the force of charge keeps all the time lines in local sync. In the beginning, a 1 dimensional proto-universe was randomly curving and uncurving as space-time fluctuated around zero. At some point it was inevitable that a random fluctuation would make the original proto-universe so curved it curved in on itself, time separated from space as the arrow of time became committed to a single direction and inflation began. The resulting 2-d Universe (mass) expanded and eventually curved in on itself and a 3-d Universe (EM) arose. After this one expanded and curved in on itself, our 4-d matter Universe (particles) arose and gravity took over. Inflation stopped because the uncurved space-time became isolated from the curved space-time by the resulting 3-d boundaries at a single point in time and that defines particles. I call this hypothesis Dimensional Evolution.
What a warp drive based on this hypothesis must do is to construct one of these nullification boundaries around a craft which effectively isolates it from the space-time of the containing Universe allowing it to slip right through it without regard for SR limitations and then construct a local curvature gradient on top of this for propulsion. In effect, the craft is inside of a photon.

South River Independent

There is some discussion of EM Drive, which may be possible and allow exploration of the solar system, at Jerry Pournelle’s Chaos Manor.

joel

Too bad you weren’t around in 1492 to explain why sailing around in the world in wooden sailing ships just didn’t make sense.

I’m sure this opinion was not in short supply at the time regardless.

James Fosser

You are quite correct. How many sailors who believed that the world was round went out and fell off the edge of the world?

Chimp

Sailors and scholars in 1492 all knew that the world was round, Washington Irving’s fable notwithstanding. The issue was the size of the earth, not its shape.
By that time, Europeans had already sailed farther south than Columbus proposed to sail west. His crew were concerned about the steadiness of the wind from the east, not the distance that they had sailed. They didn’t know, as Columbus did, that at a higher latitude the wind blew just as steadily from the west, to carry them all safely home.

TA

Never say never, Dave.
NASA’s space expenditures did not have to be a waste of money. A lack of vision caused the meager progress. We could aleady have people in orbit around Mars had we handled our resources properly.
Maybe Trump will find a visionary for NASA, and we can get this right this time.

Dave,
I spent 23 years launching Space Shuttles. It wasn’t a waste of money to me.

as Donald Trump noted- the asteroids are the goal, not Mars. the Asteroids are the next frontier- hollowed out for colonies- easily sealed up from space- gigatrillions of money waiting on the exploitation of nearly limitless resources that only need a little shove to fall into near-earth/ lunar orbits. As far as man never traveling to other solar systems- do you really want to state, like the british royal society nebbishes over a hundred years ago that we now actually really no kidding know EVERYTHING about physics and all that science stuff?

TA

“as Donald Trump noted- the asteroids are the goal, not Mars. the Asteroids are the next frontier- hollowed out for colonies- easily sealed up from space- gigatrillions of money waiting on the exploitation of nearly limitless resources”
Speaking of limitless resources, there looks to be a pretty good source of nickel-iron in the asteriod belt, the asteriod 16 Psyche which scientists think might be the exposed core of an ancient planetary body. It’s about 200 kilometers in diameter, and contains all sorts of useful materials.
NASA is thinking about sending a probe to visit 16 Psyche.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche
There are lots of resources in space just waiting for humans to come get.
It may be easier to build an artificial habitable “asteriod” rather than hollowing a real one out. Both are viable options. One or the other is necessary for humans to live safely in space for the longterm.
Humans *must* have Earth-equivalent gravity and protection from lethal radiation. Large rotating, thick-skinned habitats, first in Earth orbit and then beyond, will give us this protection, and our main space program goal should be to develop the infrastructure and the activities that will get us to the point of being able to build these habitats.
Once the first one is built, there will be no looking back for the human race.
We almost have everything hardware-wise that we need to start doing these kinds of things. We just need NASA’s leader to decide that’s what we ought to be doing, and keep everyone focused.

Germinio

There are any number of unsolved problems in physics — quantum gravity, dark energy, dark matter
just to name a few. But none of them are likely to lead to human sized faster than light spaceships. For
that to be possible much of what we know today would be wrong and not only slightly wrong but fundamentally wrong. Plus why choose “EM energy to manipulate space-time” rather than say “once
we learn how to wave a stick about to manipulate space-time” Both would require most of our current
understanding of physics to be wrong before they would be possible.
And in 1492 there were a lot of astronomers who knew the correct circumference of the world and
who therefore could predict that Columbus would starve before he would reach China. Which is why
Columbus has so much trouble getting funded for his trip. And the astronomers were correct but of
course Columbus got lucky. And a more accurate analogy would be explaining why sailing to the moon
in wooden sailing ships didn’t make sense – since that describes the level of improbability better than
sailing around the world.

“Both would require most of our current understanding of physics to be wrong before they would be possible.”
Not necessarily so. Any advances in understanding along these lines will undoubtedly build on what we know and converge in some limit to what we think we know. General Relativity didn’t obsolete Newtonian gravity but just gave is a better understanding of how gravity worked under a wider range of conditions and converged to Newtonian gravity in a limit that at one time we thought was all there was. It’s absolutely certain that any discovery which enables non chemical propulsion sufficient to get us to the stars will be absolutely consistent with General Relativity which already has the analytical richness to support things as crazy sounding as wormholes and warp drive.

Chimp

Geronimo,
IMO Columbus didn’t get lucky, but knew that land lay within sailing distance of Europe. I don’t know whether he really believed that Asia extended as far to the east as he argued or that earth was as small as he claimed, but his experiences in Iceland (Greenland) and the Azores (“non-Christian” bodies washed ashore), plus perhaps secret Basque knowledge of the Newfoundland cod fisheries, told him that land was out there, within reach.

bobl

@co2isnotevil
Agreed, Even the notion that time is a dimension implies that there are solutions for negative time ( we currently ignore negative time solutions to maxwells equations because we don’t have a meaning for negative time). Even a conventional drive can travel instantaneously if the motion in time can be decoupled from motion in space. As I pointed out before classical EM and Quantum mechanics differ on whether space is empty or whether Maxwell was right and there is an ether (in Quantum mechanics the zero point flux). The idea that space is empty is an assumption promulgated by Einstein that is possibly/probably wrong. Space might be only be empty on average, a mix of photons and antiphotons that are on average nothing.
Indeed it can be shown that an em wave can indeed transit a region that has zero energy – 273K, that can’t happen if there is no energy in the region of space. There is too much we don’t know and warping space over small regions is one of the unknown things that might just be possible.

Lil Fella from OZ

People are too quick to forget the benefits to all mankind that space exploration brings. I believe we received battery operated tools for one, every household (western society) probably has at least one. I think another was silastic. If that is true then every car and every house (western society) has some. NASA, get off climate and onto what your mandate is. Leave climate to those who are (dare I say it) qualified. In Australia we lost the world renown CSIRO to climate junk. Every blessing Janice!!

gary turner

How could you leave off your list Corning Ware and the single most important gift to man since duck (from duik, Dutch for linen) tape, WD-40?

TonyL

Dutch for linen

From a canvas-like waterproofing material known as “Cotton Duck”, used in huge quantities during WWII.
“Repels water like water off a duck’s back”

Graemethecat

It’s spelled “Duct” tape, I believe…

schitzree

Yep, Duct tape. For taping the seams in heating and air conditioning ducts (the big sheet metal pipes and boxes that the air is blown through.
One of the relatively few things duct tape DOESN’T work well on. >¿< Which is why we now a days use metal foil tape for that. But Duct tape has proven to be so useful for other uses that it will continue to be produced for decades to come.
Truly one of Mankind's greatest creations.

joel

How could we live without Tang?

PiperPaul

The poon kind?

Gunga Din

😎
I remember when I was a kid we begged our parents to buy us some “Tang”.
They finally did.
We stopped begging them.

or freeze dried ice cream???

How about the advances in computers alone? But that said since we stopped going to the Moon a lot of advances have stopped being as drastic as that last “boom”. Even today’s rocketry has basically stagnated. Yes there are advances in materials but until we make huge steps forward with new propulsion we will not advance very fast. (anti gravity anyone?). Even the next generation “heavy lift” systems are only slightly more advanced than a Saturn V , remember? the late 60’s are now almost 60 year old teck!!! ( of course I like the stationary equatorial elevators I see that as the one way to get asteroid harvesting started)

joelobryan

Moderation standards here have relaxed somewhat over the last 12 months.

Chimp

Joel,
Today it would appear so, but pictures of naked female chancellors and their communist youth comrades are streng verboten.

steve in Seattle

…. must have the poon kind …..

M Seward

What gets me is that it is not NASA that has the satellite or balloon based temperature record but the earth based, UHI polluted or canvas/wooden/metal bucket based thermometer record, the substantive and most contextual part of which record well and truly precedes space exploration. GISSTemp is a joke and its maintenance within NASA is utterly ludicorous. Its something you might expect in the script of an absurdist, spoof movie or play…. or Animal Farm Revisited.

Dave Fair

I’ve always thought it absurd that the U.S. had two different “official” temperature records.

South River Independent

Now that really is ludicorous. Term attributable to M Seward. I claim “fair use” under Copyright to avoid an unnecessary lawsuit.

“I’ve always thought it absurd that the U.S. had two different “official” temperature records.”
It doesnt. there is no such thing as an official temperature record.

Rhoda R

And are either of them the real data or are they both massaged to fit the message?

“GISSTemp” requires about a 1/4 manyear to maintain.
You could defund it and I could still run the code.
1. NOAA produces the data.
2. Giss Ingest that data.
3. The code just runs

Hugs

Oh that’s good news.
But defunding had one profound effect. The head of GISS could no longer speak as the head of GISS. So lets defund.
(In my opinion, Best has done good work and you are personally much more credible person than the head of GISS. However it would help if you just mostly ignored the fake skeptics instead of complaining so often about fake skeptisism. You know, there are crackpots, potheads and regular people, you don’t need to send a oneliner for each of those, right?)

M Seward

My nomination for word of the year folks – “ludicorous” – I claim all copyright.
It means a chorus of craziness, a la GISS excuses for their pause busting NEW, IMPROVED DATA SURFACE TEMPERATURE SET WITH ADDED TRENDINESS AND EAU DE PARIS.
You may substitute ‘ludicrous’ at your leisure to avoid a law suit.
🙂

gary turner

The word, “ludicrosity” is mine, though. ;-P

Alan Robertson

“Climate fearosphere” is widely misunderestimated.

PiperPaul

Trumpocalypse!

schitzree
schitzree

Oh, honestly. >¿< the problem with trying to post from a phone. Nothing works the same. Let's try that again.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oApAdwuqtn8

Emille

Glorified FAKE weather program is what the place is. It’s fraud, all of it. The science of refusing to properly calculate the temperature of the atmosphere is not ‘basically sound.”

Doesn’t NASA fund UAH and RSS for their earth atmospheric temperature profile work? Will that funding go away when the earth science funding goes away? I really like the NASA WorldView webpage. Is that going to be dropped as well?
https://worldview.earthdata.nasa.gov/
Be careful what you wish for.

John Harmsworth

Maybe it’s gone already, lol. Won’t load the page for me!

Hans

If they fund UAH should they not use them instead of their adjusted temperatures?

they measure two different things

Richard M

They don’t fund UAH but they do fund RSS partially with NOAA and NSF. I would drop RSS. With UAH and STAR (NOAA) they already have two data sets.

BruceC

Maybe Dr Roy Spencer is the best to answer that question;

Roy Spencer November 18, 2016 at 3:04 pm
we get no NASA money to support the UAH dataset. I suspect RSS gets a pretty big chunk, though.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/18/rss-resets-former-pause-length-and-2016-record-race-now-includes-september-and-october-data/#comment-2345641

Juan Slayton

Doesn’t NASA fund UAH …
Yeah, I thought of that too. Looked it up, though. UAH microwave sounding satellite funded by NOAA.

commieBob

As I type this there are 38 replies and no mention of President Eisenhower’s farewell address.

The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocation, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.
Yet in holding scientific discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.

It happened.

NW sage

You’re right – it happened because we weren’t listening. It seems we really aren’t very good at listening.
To paraphrase one of the European scholars of the last century [I think it may have been Churchill]: ‘The United States tries every possible wrong solution to a problem before (usually) selecting the correct one.’

I think it was Churchill, but he could easily said this as well‘ The United States tries every possible wrong solution to a problem before using the only one left over.’ But the one nice thing is that mostly the USA gives them to the rest of the planet ( after a tidy profit) except for Chinese they just steal them and Russia who out of principal didn’t buy them.

2hotel9

Ah, no. It is not the United States that “tries every possible wrong solution”, it is the political left in America that has done that. Democrat or Republican, leftists are the problem.

Progressivism poisons everything.

Steward,
Would that be a chorus of Luddites?????

MattN

I do not see this as nearly the positive as many of you here do.

Pop Piasa

Funding is restorable. when the dead wood drops then growth can begin anew (in a better direction).

Javert Chip

MattN
Just a guess – you have never been accurately accused of over-communicating.

Pop Piasa

“Space research is a luxury, Earth observations are essential.”
Sounds like he’s throwing the rest of NASA under the bus to keep from getting eliminated for being redundant among Earth observers.

Pop Piasa

I wonder if he and Gavin are getting that “Lysenko-ing” feeling, yet?

BallBounces

We’ll remember this next time we’re looking to cut the fat.

Bruce Cobb

Oh dear. The climate gravy train appears to be running out of steam. What a shame.

markl

“Mr Trump’s decisions will be based upon solid science, not politicized science.” says it all. Trump is probably already counting on the redirected funding from AGW to fund national infrastructure programs. Just how many organizations do we need to be studying climate? There’s going to be some people looking for work with few available openings in the near future if they aren’t already. I’m also guessing there will be some bitter whistle blowers coming out of this mess claiming they were forced to comply with the AGW meme or lose their jobs.

EternalOptimist

What many people fail to realise, is that once we have people and craft in space, setting up a colony on the moon or mars is free. just like wind and solar power is free

South River Independent

Nothing of value is free.

TA

It’s not free, it’s just a whole lot easier.

railgun launched craft to the asteroids from luna/ lunar orbit is easily within reach with our current technologies. bring back jerry pournelle and larry niven!!! before they are gone !!!

TA

Space Studies Institute has all sorts of good information on making it possible to live permanently in space.
SSI.org

dan no longer in CA

Sorry, but your comment stirred up visions of wind power on the moon. 🙂

Gavin was evidently not well enough funded to respond to any number of standard journalistic queries from yours truly about matters climate over the course of the past 10 years. He or a minion or a like-minded colleague at Real Climate was able to take the time to make a file indicating me as a problem on their delightful realclimatewiki page, however. So, I guess I got that for my tax dollars. He would never, ever adjust a climatological record, although the GISS record for Reykjavik in Don’t Sell Your Coat correctly shows no warming since the 1940s and the one on the GISS website today shows impressive warming. So, I guess I got that for my tax dollars, too.

I would love to see NASA extend it space programmes Hopefully it will never be undermined by politics in the long run. However, talking of politicised science, this is probably the most politicised science website I have ever come across. For eight years we have seen Obama run down, now we see Trump promoted. I can’t count how many times I have seen daft terms like “warmisist and left wing fanatics mentioned about about the most middle of the road politicians. I’ve seen solid right wing politicians idolised and old Tory Lords like Monkton using the site to promote traditional rural class systems and colonialism.
I agree politics and science should stay apart, but people in glass houses should not throw stones (Or people in greenhouses!) Apologies in advance for the apoplectic fits.

Alan Robertson

The whole CAGW topic is 97% politics. Where is your head?

Marcus

..there is a YUUUUGE difference between a non governmental blog and a taxpayer funded research facility…Of course, you knew that didn’t you….Oh look, a squirrel !

PiperPaul
commieBob

PiperPaul November 23, 2016 at 4:09 pm

The image is too hard to read so here’s some text to go with it.

Howard Brookins Jr., the alderman for Chicago’s 21st ward, had publicly spoken out about a toothy menace plaguing the city’s garbage carts: urban squirrels, which in Brookins’s view were “aggressive,” and aggressively damaging the trash cart lids.

Brookins was biking along Cal-Sag Trail on Nov. 13, when a squirrel darted into his path. The squirrel cut Brookins’s bike trip short by wrapping itself in the spokes of the alderman’s bicycle. The alderman flipped over the handlebars and landed with such a severe impact that he fractured his skull, broke his nose and knocked out a handful of teeth, … link

Sorry to enjoy someone else’s misfortune but LOL.

TA

“However, talking of politicised science, this is probably the most politicised science website I have ever come across.”
You mean you don’t consider all those alarmist websites to be politicized? But this one is?

Old Tory Lords created all classical Western Science, you maroon. Newton and pals? you may have heard of them- So whose system is better- rich aristocrats funding actual, real science hobbies, or social justice affirmative action “research” which produces pre-determined “findings” for the global elite, as they collect taxpayer dollars?

Not true.Many academics came from humble backgrounds. The aristocracy tend to go to Oxbridge because they have a better start in life At Eton or similar. A child with a medium level intelligence will do much better in life if he is from a wealthy background than a poor child who is extremely bright.
By the way, Newton funded his studies by working as a valet during his studies at Trinity College. He was from a middle class background, but hardly aristocracy.

schitzree

promote traditional rural class systems and colonialism.

I’d say that was the point you lost all credibility, but frankly you didn’t have much to begin with. ~¿~
COLONIALISM. Much like reactionist or counter-revolutionairy, the Leftists don’t actually know what it means. They just know they’re supposed to shout it at people the don’t agree with.

commieBob

There is a strong correlation between political beliefs and global warming beliefs. It is therefore unsurprising to find many right wingers on this site.
The thing to note, though, is that bad science will get shot down no matter which side of the debate it supports. In other words, bad science that supports the skeptics does not get a free pass. There are enough engineers, scientists, meteorologists, statisticians, etc. that someone will call out any errors, omissions, incompetence, or just plain fraud.

CommieBob, yours is about the only sensible response I had from my post. Many thanks. The point I was trying to make is I know this site is biased towards Conservative and right wing politics, I accept that. But it just seems strange to rage against the politicisation of science, when that is exactly what large section of this site are about.

commieBob

Gareth Phillips November 24, 2016 at 3:58 am
… But it just seems strange to rage against the politicisation of science, when that is exactly what large section of this site are about.

The community that gathers here is quite diverse. In that light, I think it’s laudable that conflicting opinions get posted.

SAMURAI

Commiebob-san:
One’s political ideology is simply a manifestation of one’s epistomolotgy– not the other way around.
Conservatives are, by nature, empiricists, curious, skeptical, individualistic, and have a heathy distrust of government… Leftists, in general, are driven more by emotions and feelings, are group oriented, tend to accept authority, are altruistic, and think the government can solve all problems.
The CAGW ho-x should never have occured. When communism started to implode, the CAGW cult was developed take over the task of destoying capitalism and limited government ideologies.
It was quite sucessful in getting governments to waste $10’s of trillions of taxpayers’ money but its days are numbered…
Leftists don’t realize the blowback the CAGW demise will have against them… Hardworking taxpayers will not be pleased that Leftists wasted so many $trillions of their hard earned money for no reason whatsoever….

That unfortunately is precisely what has not happened.
You have to face the fact that science research has many flaws and among them is a politicized peer review system, where half the science articles are fraud intentional or not and cannot be reproduced. Where funding for science corrupts science itself to promote certain outcomes.
There are dozens of ways to attack the science of global warming it is easily proved that something is horribly wrong with this “science” that the scientists in this field use unscientific methodologies and base falsity upon falsity to build a mountain of garbage that has to be unraveled piece by piece.

South River Independent

A nit pick: Senator Proxmire was from Wisconsin. Famous for his Golden Fleece Awards.

Craig

Hopefully now we can get NASA’s “prime mission” changed from informing the arabs how much they contributed to the space program, back to actually launching missions to space. And get away from constant politically correct “training” (social PC indoctrination) and back to real mission and work related training.

Latitude

..I think this means we’re not going to be sending any muslims to the moon

Latitude

…I think this means we’re not going to be sending any m u s l i m s to the moon……..

@ Latitude, I am glad my mouth was empty ! LOL ( BTW I wonder what the Quran, Koran? says about the “nearer to Allah” thing?)

Pop Piasa

Latitude, you reminded me of a fun song on that subject (sort of):

donb

Who really believes, based on Trump’s many “promises” before the election, that they know for sure what Trump will actually do on any one of them? Trump emulated P.T. Barnum, quoted as saying that there is a sucker born every minute. How many of his “promises” are implemented will depend on the persons he appoints to run his various departments and agencies, and how much “freedom” he gives them in that.

Marcus

Well, so far. he seems to be batting 1,000 ! IMHO…

Latitude

That’s odd…..Hillary lost for those exact same reasons

PiperPaul

I thought I saw a post here at WUWT a while ago from Jerry Pournelle. Maybe it was just “Jerry Pournelle”.

Robert from oz

Here is the ABC article mentioned above about mr Schmidt and claims he manipulated data , he seems to contradict himself .
Print Email Facebook Twitter More
NASA director debunks Malcolm Roberts’ theory on climate data manipulation in polite letter
Updated about an hour ago
From left to right: Malcolm Roberts and Gavin Schmidt
PHOTO: One Nation senator Malcolm Roberts (L) and NASA’s Gavin Schmidt (R). (ABC/Twitter)
RELATED STORY: Behind the scenes with Australia’s newest One Nation senatorRELATED STORY: Q&A showdown: Brian Cox takes on Malcolm Roberts
MAP: Australia
In a politely worded letter, the director of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) has addressed One Nation senator Malcolm Roberts’ concerns that the organisation’s data on climate change has been manipulated.
In a rare occurrence, director Gavin Schmidt personally wrote a letter in response to Senator Roberts’ request for information about the NASA GISTEMP analysis of global surface temperature history.
The GISS Surface Temperature Analysis (GISTEMP) is an estimate of global surface temperature change.
In the letter obtained by Fairfax Media and circulated widely on social media, the NASA scientist directed Senator Roberts to a number of links on the NASA website that published the entirety of NASA’s raw data and the code they use to analyse that data.
“However, you appear to hold a number of misconceptions which I am happy to clarify at this time,” the letter went on.
The first “misconception” noted by Mr Schmidt related to a graph that Senator Roberts had included in his request.
The graph, as Mr Schmidt pointed out, originated from the Global Historical Climatology Network (GHCN), a project run by the National Ocean and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).
“Perhaps you might not be aware, but NOAA is a different US Govt. agency than NASA, and questions relating to their activities or products might be more usefully addressed to them,” Mr Schmidt said.
The second “misconception” pertained to Senator Roberts’ comments on the effect of homogeneity adjustments on Arctic temperatures “from whatever source”.
The NASA climate scientist continued his letter to Mr Roberts by explaining homogeneity adjustments.
“The claim that GISS has ‘removed the 1940s warmth’ in the Arctic is not correct,” he said.
Mr Schmidt explained that temperature records were homogenised.
This, he said, was a “necessary task to ensure that non-climatic influences in the analysis are minimised as much as possible”.
Mr Schmidt urged Senator Roberts if he had any remaining questions, to perform his own analyses.
“Finally, might I suggest that you avail yourself to the resources provided by the Bureau of Meteorology or CSIRO in Australia for further details on this topic,” the letter concluded.
This out-of-the-ordinary step taken by the NASA director was not the first time Senator Roberts has come up against a scientist over climate change.
In August, particle physicist Professor Brian Cox took on Senator Roberts on the ABC’s Q&A program.
Their exchange involved claims by Senator Roberts that climate data had been corrupted by NASA.

Robert from oz

So what’s the difference between homogenised and removed ?

Roberts is just wrong about what NASA does as opposed to NOAA
Just wrong.
We fought hard to get the NASA code released .. it would help if folks actually looked at it

Brett Keane

@ Steven Mosher
November 23, 2016 at 4:32 pm: Unlike Gavin and Mosh, Malcolm is a skilled practical Physicist/Engineer. I back him in the long run…..

bobl

Homogenised is just a Euphamism for Corrupted.
The Homogenisation is a model of how the world is thought to work, they unbelievably think that thermometers over 1000km apart are somehow related. On the whole they are not. So the “data” that the climate models feed from is not the actual grid temperature but a model of temperature smeared over the surface of the planet. Climate models are the model of the output of a model. Because a chosen few reference thermometers represent a substantial chunk of the earth’s surface, cherry picking the right set of references can inflate the temperature trend of a huge chunk of the earths surface for example you can smear UHI from Darwin over a quarter the area of Australia. Indeed the minute you make an adjustment say for station moves, you are making assumptions and the set becomes “It’s a model stupid!”
I call all these “datasets” modeled temperature sets, so one can be scientifically accurate about what they are. GISTEMP is a modeled temperature set RSS and UAH are also modeled temperature sets although the assumptions are much more objective (orbital decay is a pretty good model). Only the raw data is a dataset though. All these modeled sets should always be referenced to the raw data (they should never be displayed without raw data).
Anthony: I think maybe you could take up this on principle – accurate representations of the origins of the various temperature series are important!

“are also modeled temperature sets although the assumptions are much more objective (orbital decay is a pretty good model). ”
Wrong
Lets take RSS
Since Satillites measure difference places at different times all the measurements have to be homogenized for changes in time of observations ( just like TOBS)
To homogenize for this RSS uses a GCM !!!
Second
The satillite reads a return that comes from both the SURFACE and the atmosphere. To Eliminate the surface return both groups have to make an assumption about the emissivity of the planet. They both assume a CONSTANT emmisivity over land..
Third.
in order to invert from brightness at the sensor to temperature at altitude UAH employ a radiative transfer model.. Here is a clue… radiative transfer physics is the physics that ALL of climate science
rests upon.
the structural uncertainty in satillite records is huge.
NOW, NASA has a new satillite that will help to calibrate existing satillites to a single standard.. launches in 2017 and a second bird in 2020.
Of course, skeptics dont like observations so cancel that shit.

Steven,
“The satillite reads a return that comes from both the SURFACE and the atmosphere. ”
It’s much easier to separate then you seem to think. The LWIR sensors are tuned to transparent regions of the emission spectrum and sense photons emitted directly by the surface (or clouds). Separating atmosphere emissions from surface emissions is simply a matter of determining the presence of clouds.
The only parts of the atmosphere that can emit energy in the transparent regions of the spectrum are clouds (and perhaps particulates) since O2 and N2 emit nothing into space. Since the sensors largely ignore absorption bands and in the clear sky, the only emissions originating from the atmosphere comes from GHG’s , atmospheric emissions that don’t originate from clouds are not even measured. The only exception is the water vapor channel which is tuned to a specific and relatively weak absorption band of H2O where the sensor voltage becomes proportional to atmospheric water content. The radiative transfer model (not a full blown GCM) is used to estimate temperature at altitudes other than the surface and to determine total planet emissions whose long term averages can be cross checked to the incident energy which is more directly measured.

bobl

Point taken Stephen, RSS is a model too. That is what I said anyway.

John Silver

“but quietly transforming NASA from a space exploration agency into a glorified weather programme.”
Hey, those are my words. Make up your own sentences.
Well, I guess great minds think alike.

Brett Keane

@ Steven Mosher
November 23, 2016 at 6:49 pm: ” Of course, skeptics dont like observations so cancel that shit” Frankly Mosh, you are getting a bit over the top again. But that is your problem, not ours. As time is revealing..

CRS, DrPH

I agree with Speaker Newt Gingrich’s prior proposals to build a big, honkin’ permanent base on the moon. Once we have boots on the ground up there, we can study anything we want. Keeping an eye on the Earth is a damn good idea, but a moon base paves the way for deep space exploration, advanced manufacturing in low gravity, and who knows what else. http://www.space.com/14411-newt-gingrich-moon-base-cost.html

Robert of Texas

100% agree climate and earth monitoring are not NASA’s job.
Now they need to clean up the other areas whose job it is, so that their results are actually good scientific research based on non-biased data.
The Liberals are going to have conniption fits…
And please clean up the EPA!

“earth monitoring are not NASA’s job.”
Huh,
Landsat has been running since the early 70s

John Miller

I didnt vote for Trump, and agreed with him on very little -except with regards to anthropogenic climate change (or whatever it’s called nowadays). After all is said and done, NASA should thank him for restoring their focus to their original purpose.