Guest essay by David Archibald
In the time before the current period of faith-based science, much good work was done on the role of the Sun in controlling climate. One of the best monographs from that time of innocence is Hoyt and Schatten’s The Role of the Sun in Climate Change, published by Oxford University Press in 1997. That book starts with this paragraph:
About 400 years before the birth of Christ, near Mt. Lyscabettus in ancient Greece, the pale orb of the sun rose through the mists. According to habit, Meton recorded the sun’s location on the horizon. In this era when much remained to be discovered, Meton hoped to find predictable changes in the locations of sunrise and moonrise. Although rainy weather had limited his recent observations, this foggy morning he discerned specks on the face of the sun, the culmination of many such blemishes in recent years. On a hunch, Meton began examining his more than 20 years of solar records. These seemed to confirm his belief: when the sun has spots, the weather tends to be wetter and rainier.

So the idea that sunspots and the solar cycle control climate is at least 2,400 years old. In the modern era, the appreciation of sunspots started again in 1610 with telescopic observations by Galileo, Thomas Harriot and others. The solar cycle was discovered by Samual Schwabe in 1843 after 17 years of observations, though William Herschel’s correlation of sunspots and the wheat price in England dates from 1801. A 2003 paper by Pustilnik and Din entitled Influence of Solar Activity on State of Wheat Market in Medieval England confirmed Herschel’s observation.
The idea that the Sun controls climate is easy enough to understand. In fact the Earth’s climate is exquisitively sensitive to changes in solar output, as shown in Nir Shaviv’s 2009 paper Using the Oceans as a Calorimeter to Quantify the Solar Radiative Forcing. Professor Shaviv found that the total radiative forcing associated with solar cycles variations is about 5 to 7 times larger than just those associated with the TSI variations.
We know what causes individual sunspots – something to do with magnetic flux tubes rising to the solar surface due to bouyancy. But the cause of the solar cycle itself had remained a mystery until the recent publication of the second edition of Evidence-Based Climate Science, edited by the indefatigable Don Easterbrook. The first edition, published in 2011, contained a paper by Ed Fix, retired B-52 pilot from Ohio, entitled The Relationship of Sunspot Cycles to Gravitational Stresses on the Sun: Results of a Proof-of-Concept Simulation, which demonstrated the modulation of the solar cycle by the gas planets. The second edition expands on that with a co-authored paper (Ed and myself) entitled Aspects of Solar Variability and Climate Response which details the relative contribution of those planets.
It has long been suspected that the solar cycle is largely influenced by Jupiter due to the closeness of the average length of the solar cycle of 11 years and the orbital period of Jupiter of 11.86 years. In 1984, Schwentek and Elling noted that “the clearly dominant spectral band in sunspot number, the solar cycle of 10.8 years, is given by the configuration period of Jupiter and Saturn (19.859 yr) times the ratio of their distances from the Sun (0.545).” Just over a decade later, Attila Grandpierre confirmed that whatever was causing the solar cycle must be extrinsic to the Sun – which leaves the planets as the causative agent.
Ed Fix’s 2011 paper was important because it provided a physical explanation for solar cycle behaviour. Many of the then observation-derived rules for explaining the fundamental properties of the sunspot cycle had not been quantified until that paper. To a large extent, existing solar science is based on non-mathematical observation, evidenced by Dikpati’s and Hathaway’s various predictions of solar cycle amplitude. The 2011 paper’s treatment of the sunspot cycle as an ideal spring driven by changes in radial acceleration provided a new paradigm. At the same time, this new model is consistent with the solar dynamo theory.
Ed Fix’s model explains why, for extended periods, successive increases in solar cycle amplitude are seen before the system gets out of phase and phase destruction occurs. Individual Hale cycles are not discrete magnetic events. The quantum of flux preserved in the system is the basis for the amplitude of the following cycle. Thus the sunspot cycle memory effect is explained.
The model also explains the Waldemeir effect – that strong cycles reach a maximum of amplitude in the shortest period of time. It also explains the amplitude-period effect (the anti-correlation between the peak amplitude of a cycle and the length of the preceding cycle) and the amplitude-minimum effect (the correlation between cycle amplitude and the activity level at the previous minimum). Ed Fix’s model hindcasts almost perfectly and that very close match, despite the model’s simplicity, suggests that a lot of confidence could be placed in what it is predicting.
Some have doubted the planetary basis of the solar cycle due to the weak effects of the individual planets on the Sun. That is certainly borne out by the work done for the 2016 paper. Figure 1, from that paper, shows that by itself Jupiter has little effect on solar variability:
Figure 1: Simulation model with Jupiter only compared to the full model
Similarly, Figure 2 running the model with only Saturn shows a similarly low amplitude response though with Saturn’s 29 year orbital period instead of Jupiter’s 12 years:
Figure 2: Simulation model with Saturn only compared to the full model
So, if Jupiter and Saturn have little effect on the Sun by themselves, as predicted by many, what does cause the solar cycle? This is the mystery that has not been explained until now.
It turns out that the interaction of Jupiter and Saturn causes most of the solar cycle. The effect on the Sun of these two planets is synergistic rather than additive as shown by Figure 3. It has been said that mathematics is the language of physics. What has been elucidated by this paper is the mathematical basis of the solar cycle.
Figure 3: Simulation model with Jupiter and Saturn compared to the full model
The red line shows the full model which includes Uranus and Neptune as well as Jupiter and Saturn. The difference between the red and blue lines is the effect of Uranus and Neptune. This can be additive or subtractive. In Solar Cycles 18 and 22, Uranus and Neptune increased the amplitude of the solar cycles relative to the model output of Jupiter and Saturn alone. In Solar Cycles 20 and 24, Uranus and Neptune had the effect of reducing the size of those solar cycles. Thus the cold period of the 1970s cooling period associated with Solar Cycle 20 may have been due to the influence of Uranus and Neptune.
Where to from here? Well, there is another big mystery remaining about the Sun. The hemispheres have different activities that are preserved on a multi-cycle basis. That is shown in the following figure:
Figure 4: Sunspot area by solar hemisphere
For the last three cycle, the southern hemisphere has had more sunspot area than the northern hemisphere. Its peak has also been later than that of the northern hemisphere. What could be causing that? It is likely to be the inclination of the orbits of the gas giant planets to the Sun’s equator. Those inclination are:
Jupiter 6.09%
Saturn 5.51%
Uranus 6.48%
Neptune 6.43%
It seems that the next step will be to make a 3D version of Ed Fix’s model.
David Archibald is the author of Twilight of Abundance (Regnery).
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Well, of course the sun has an impact on climate…
It is just that the main driver of current climate changes – i.e. warming – is human CO2.
(heavy sigh) The AGW religion of the IPCC is well known, Griff. It’s just that most of us stick to real science.
One thing is for certain though, If you remove either one from the equation, the Earth gets Cold and Dead.
Even if you lower either one the earth gets colder and death begins to take hold. Just look at the LIA and the famine in Europe
Griff did a nice job of hijacking this thread. I’d like to see this article reposted and let people comment on the actual content.
..And some day you may actually be able to prove it !!
Griff be able to prove it? C’mon, he probably has Velcro fasteners on his shoes as laces are still a challenge!
…ROTFLMAO…
Hey, go easy on the Velcro fasteners, I’m 57 and love them! Why should I spend my time lacing and tying when Velcro will do a faster job?
Harry I really want some of those sneakers with the flashing LED lights, but my wife refuses to be seen with me if I buy any… 🙁
That doesn’t sound like cancer to me Swanson
If you truly believe that, kindly explain the lack of any significant warming for the last 19 years!
If you use only RSS type data, from a certain start date, that’s what you would get, if you left out 2016…
and if you remove all the adjustments that have been made to the raw data for the purpose of Karl et. al. the climate stability would still be indicated
Welcome to the Adjustocene
The RSS and UAH data sets also have had multiple adjustments, so they fit right in that epoch
The adjustments to satellite data are warranted scientifically. The manipulation of so-called “surface data” sets are not. They’re tendentious and anti-scientific to promote advocacy.
Speaking of faith based science, up jumps the chief acolyte.
To bad the science has shown that CO2 is only a bit player in this drama.
Well Griff, you were the first to comment and the first to disappear without defending your claim. Will you also claim that the CO2 humanity produces is responsible for the next planetary cooling cycle? Reality has debunked the models already, so all you possess is blind faith in the agenda behind those models and their claimed forecasts. The reradiation of infrared by CO2 is dwarfed by that of H2O, and my nursery rhyme still stands:
Mother Goose on Climate Prediction
As record winds blow
Unprecedented snow,
Oh, where is our globe a’ warming?
That depends on the sun
And the ways oceans run,
Plus clouds (with complexity) forming!
Now, and for quite long,
Climate models are wrong.
So, what caused the pause in the warming?
Yes, look to the sun,
The ways oceans run,
And the clouds, in complexity forming.
CO2 is “too small”
To stop temperature’s fall
When the sun, clouds and oceans together,
Begin to cause cold
in a cycle so old…
That no one alive can remember!
So if I do some harm
By just keeping warm,
You’ll have to kindly forgive me!
I find my solution
Is carbon pollution…
Ere this planet will quickly outlive me!
I don’t have infinite time to post comments, like some lucky folk… you’ll have to wait till I can get back.
For certain CO2 has increased, isotopically that CO2 came from human activity, global temperatures continue to climb, arctic sea ice and glaciers continue to decline. The sun is in a cooler phase recently. The only realistic cause of the warming is that CO2, a known greenhouse gas.
Unless you exclude, ignore or claim as fake the surface temp record, there’s evidence of rising temps.
I note also the results of the skeptic funded Berkley Earth programme.
Really, I’d have to go far off the beaten track of science to find evidence otherwise.
You seem to have more time to waste than anyone else posting here, considering all of your comments are meaningless trolling. It must be all the time you save from not reading the articles.
Pop Piasa —
Nice little poem. You are more deserving of the Noble Prize in Literature than Bod Dylan.
Eugene WR Gallun
Sorry Griff,
Not meaning to burst your Climate Alarm Bubble
but your statement is a bit oxy moronic
Sorry Griff,
Not meaning to burst your Climate Alarm Bubble
but your statement is a bit oxy moronic
The bolded portion of your statement is exactly the issue. The surface temperature records have been adjusted to read warmer in the present and cooler in the past. In essence they have been adjusted so much that they do no longer represent the actual data and thus can be viewed as faked
The surface temperature record in the modern error has error bars of somewhere around 5C. These get greater as you go back in time.
The idea that you can tease a signal of a few hundredths of a degree from that record is so ridiculous that only the terminally clueless could accept it.
Griff, and how do you figure in the activity of the most prevalent greenhouse gas: water vapor? Or is that portion of infrared map immaterial?
Also, how are you able to distinguish the difference between human-induced CO2 and natural CO2, the latter of which is 40X larger by volume, and considering that they are intermixed?
Well Bryan if the data is faked, by agencies such as NASA, on such a wide scale, with such a scale of acceptance (‘cover up’) by world scientists, then we’re not talking science but conspiracy theory.
A conspiracy of a level the world has never seen the like… and in 25 years and more, no one has broken the silence, the evidence of faking has not been presented.
Berkley Earth took skeptic money to look at it and found nothing.
If there was that level of conspiracy, this website wouldn’t exist…
MRW – it only matters that we can tell the origin of the increase in CO2 and pin it to human activity…
It is faked Griff, just in the last year NOAA has changed the yearly co2 emmisions ppm/v and the temperature per year. There is absolutely no reason, none whatsoever. I submit a paper with the wrong info on it, I’m ignored as an idiot. I become the one changing the data…
he griff-
“NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center uses satellite data to provide precise weather updates to NORAD as it begins tracking Santa’s progress after sundown every Christmas Eve. One NASA satellite traces the infrared signal from the red nose of lead reindeer Rudolph.
From its base at the Peterson Air Force base in Colorado, NORAD posts real-time updates of Santa’s progress on its website, NoradSanta.org. Updates are provided in eight languages. NORAD also updates Santa’s journey on social media such as Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.”
there’s a google app for that, too.
this is not a conspiracy. everybody truly believes.
and i’m sure you’d be the last one to deny the science.
omniscient distributors of unearned wealth are the backbone of a progressive social order.
Griff,
It’s not a conspiracy theory but a fact, which can be easily demonstrated by comparing previous data sets to those post-adjustment. Also, once formerly secret algorithms were forced into the daylight, the extent of the manipulation became clear.
Griff: “It is just that the main driver of current climate changes – i.e. warming – is human CO2.”
Spoken with such conviction, Griff. Almost as much conviction as you showed last week in your “belief” that hurricanes in Oct are “unusual” and definitely caused by human CO2. Until you were shown the facts. Apparently facts, for you, have a half life of somewhere under a week.
Griff, that is sarcasm, right?
I think Griff is a visiting alien from another planet. No warming for 19 years other than in puter models!
Can we just compromise and agree that the main driver of current climate data changes – i.e. warming – is human?
If by climate data “changes” you mean climate data manipulation or “adjustments”, then sure, we all agree those are human induced. 😉
Yes, let’s call it “Mann Made Global Warming”!
It is just that the main driver of current climate changes – i.e. warming – is human CO2.
Griff, this statement is a conjecture (polite word for wild-assed guess). It is not even a hypothesis, because it is untestable. There is no way of differentiating the signal (presumed AGW) from the noise (what is happening to the climate without the presence of human CO2).
The mathematical models based on this conjecture have no skill in forecasting or hindcasting. They have been “parameterized” (polite word for fudge-factored) to fit the data over a short time period. Any mathematician worth his salt can conjure up an equation that purports to show that an independent variable can predict a dependent variable.
It is warming… things like the sun and milankovitch cycles are not producing additional warming effects.
Griff,the weak warming trend is well within historical trends. There is nothing unusual going on.
Plus there have been many failures of the CAGW conjecture already known,that indicate that CO2 doesn’t drive temperature changes anyway.
Stop hanging onto a trace gas,with a minuscule IR absorption capability.
But, like Goebbels, he’ll keep saying it. Similar psychologies. Similar methods.
Griff,
Whatever warming has actually occurred since the end of the LIA is natural. Earth’s climate warms and cools without any help from humanity, and has always done so.
What has happened since c. AD 1850 is entirely within normal bounds. Much bigger warming cycles have occurred during the Holocene and all prior interglacials. Even bigger swings happened during the glacial intervals.
There is no “human fingerprint” on any warming since the end of the LIA or during the post-war period.
Oh, wow. Sun doesn’t warm the tropical Pacific? I’d like to hear your rationale for ENSO, or is that a toss-away too?
I did it myself once for fun. A simple polynomial with 120 degrees of freedom gave a perfect hindcast fit to the past 120 years of climate. I “proved” that the Earth’s climate follows a polynomial law! 🙂
Fantastic Griff! All these people working night and day and spending billions on this problem and you figured it all out at a glance using only the power of preconceived notions!
Hey, I go to my MD and I don’t figure I have to work out the basics of human physiology before I let her treat me… I take the biological science as fact.
Griff,
Biological science and physiology aren’t settled, either. No science is.
Nutritionists can’t decide on fats, refined sugars, carbs or whatever as the control knob on cholesterol and health.
Where is real world evidence,Griff?
If you don’t like what he’s shown so far, give him a minute and he’ll manufacture some more.
To be fair, I don’t think he’s manufactured anything – he said himself, he doesn’t have time – so he’s just simply repeating every last BS piece of hackwork propaganda/spin that’s fed to him by his puppet-masters. That’s why he always cites some third party.
Manufacturing is an act of creation. Modern Progressivism – particularly where it is most corrupted by eco-fascism – is a philosophy of destruction – incompatible with actual progress and outside the realm of understanding of greenie-types.
That man-made CO2 is the main driver of current climate changes is an evidence-free assertion, not a scientific fact, ie observation. It doesn’t even qualify as an hypothesis, since it’s easily shown false. There is not even a correlation, let alone causation. The null hypothesis, ie that nothing out of the ordinary has happened with climate during the monotonous rise in CO2 since the end of WWII.
For the first 30 to 35 years after the war, earth’s climate cooled dramatically despite steadily increasing CO2, so all that extra beneficial plant food in the air could not possibly have been the main driver of global temperature. Then, for about 20 years, rising CO2 happened accidentally to coincide with apparently rising GASTA. Then, for the 18 years after the 1998 super El Nino, global temperature was flat to falling. Since this year’s El Nino was slightly warmer than the 1998 event, we’re, probably temporarily, back to a slight increase since then, but far below the GIGO climate models’ predictions. And the downtrend is liable to return with a likely La Nina event.
So, while CO2 is a GHG weaker than H2O, increasing its concentration from three to four molecules per 10,000 dry air molecules over a century has had a negligible effect on global temperature and other climatic phenomena. Net feedback effects are probably negative, as indicated by the pronounced cooling for nearly half of the post-war interval.
Null hypothesis has not been rejected. Left off the last phrase.
Griff —
You go ahead and continue to believe your silly little myth about human CO2. The White Queen claimed to be able to believe six impossible things before breakfast. Maybe if you breakfasted on the science you would give up such a silly claim.
Eugene WR Gallun
Ronald Reagan quipped that it was not what his opponents did not know that bothered him: it was all the things they Know that is NOT TRUE that did.
The “Climate Change” theologists knows so much that is not true they have no attention left for evidence and logic.
True or false the collected observations by the Weather Service are the largest and best documented data we have for historic US temps. We literally cannot “adjust” it since we DO NOT have the evidence to improve the raw numbers. Any changes are exactly as likely to be wrong as right.
Its not a myth is it?
There’s a known effect of greenhouse gasses in an atmosphere: we have more CO2: surface temp records and secondary indicators like glaciers show warming. Other climate drivers like Milankovitch cycles can be shown to not be having a warming effect.
I can read any amount of peer reviewed science backing up the theory behind the real world observations.
As Bryan has set out above it would likely involve massive fakery for the science to be wrong.
Or relying on partial data from only RSS type temp data.
Or ignoring the plain evidence of melting arctic sea ice.
what is the contrary evidence?
Its not warming?
Only warming naturally/a bit?
Only the temp evidence from satellites is OK?
The evidence is faked?
Its a UN plot under Agenda 21?
They are only doing it for the grant money?
there is no solid body of evidence against warming: only partial use of evidence and political opinion and, sadly, conspiracy theory.
Poor ole Griff. Still banging in a drum that’s been discarded by real science years ago.
A minutes silence for Griff, and CO2 induced climate change.
I wonder what this real science is? Where can we read it?
WUWT is a good place to start.
Once again a troll jumps in and derails the conversation. Nothing useful to say about the article, just a diversion into nonsense. @Griff, are you paid to do this? Do you also go by the name emsnews? How many other user names do you have?
The best thing to do is ignore trolls, don’t react and they will go away. Trolls get a mental rush out of raising your reaction against them ( self flagellation).
i will second both these comments . one alarmist goon turns up and the discussion thread turns to crap. note how often the goon has one of the first comments on certain threads. either a trust fund overweight greenie permanantly glued to his computer screen or a troll bot. saddest thing is “it” gets the desired response every single time.
Griff,
That’s like saying that hanging your hand out the car window is the main driver in your fuel mileage.
I strongly disagree with that Griff. Man made warming could or has been linked to a number of things; urban heat islands, attic spaces were the volume of heat is actually retained and is dependent on the power formula for raising the temperature ( for example the amount of energy it takes for a car traveling 40 to go to 60 mph), road construction, and actual heat release. Co2 is not a contributor to warming. In fact co2 follows temperature. The IPCC s graphs are not congruent showing the relationship of co2 and temperature.
Grift really enjoys being a pain in the a$$ and getting a reaction. Probably got beat up a lot growing up.
The goon d@nies the scientific fact that CO2 is plant food, apparently just for the sake of having something about which to argue to fill up an empty, meaningless existence.
Never mind that the C in C12H22O11 (sugar made by photosynthesis in plants) comes from carbon dioxide in the air.
Hence, more such plant food has visibly greened the earth and twice or thrice as much as now would be even better for our planet.
The paper is about the effect of the planets on the sun.
Your first sentence is trivial, everyone accepts that as fact.
No Griff, the main driver of the obsession with CO2 as the main driver of current climate change is humans like you. The CO2 thesis has more basis in the notion of original sin than in science. You lot would have lynched Charles Darwin if you got the chance or at least vilified him and everyone who gave any credence to his creation denial. All funding would be diverted to the examination of ‘intelligent design’ and how clever God was.
In my study of cycles in precipitation data few decades back [published in an article], I noticed 60-year cycle. I also found this in astrological calendar used in India and as well in China. In Chinese astrological cycle relates to 12 animal signs and 5 panchabhootas. All these are related to 9 planets which form the basis for Indian astrology. Following this I tried to look at the cycle length of the plants to 60 year cycle in rainfall. All these I made qualitatively.
Dr. S. Jeevananda Reddy
No it isn’t.
Stop making stuff up.
Lacks the Turing test:
a Griff is
a) human
b) a directed fast responding answere machine
Nice theory.
So now consider Proxima Centauri, with an observable cycle and no known planets. Key to this theory is the presence of gas giants, so colour me skeptical that this is a done-and-dusted theory.
Proxima Centauri is, firstly, part of a trinary star system. Secondly, you’re a bit behind the times. In August this year we found a planet orbiting it.
Thanks for the update!
Nice, Phil. Still, it should be possible to study the system’s TSI variation relative to the positions of the two “hot planets,” assuming we can determine their orbits.
Civil Engineer planning for 500 year flood pattern for four dams in South America https://anhonestclimatedebate.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/2982-journal-of-civ-eng-vol-49-no-2.pdf
Beware the ongoing approx 1.4% per decade increase in total precipitable water (TPW) ftp://ftp.remss.com/vapor/monthly_1deg/tpw_v07r01_198801_201609.time_series.txt
Dan, is this a trend or a positive oscillation?
This is an awesome paper. Saw it yesterday and bookmarked it for more a more in depth reading when I have time over Christmas.
The one I’m really looking forward to is what is causing the Earth-facing Solar quiet. We can see from Stereo A and B that the far side of the sun is as active as ever. But for at least the last year there has been some forcing on the Earth-facing disk which causes sun spots to rapidly decay or fail to grow into complexity, reduce flaring and even keep filaments stable until they’re not in geoeffective longitudes.
What is causing that is something I’d love to find out.
I agree, great paper. I’m 57, an engineer and hope to live long enough to see this all play out. In my career I’ve been involved in debunking quite a few held “beliefs” on why things are happening using science. I can see the c02 “belief” concept going down the same path as some of the fervently held ideas my teams and I have unraveled.
Such as??
Just as a note, nobody knowledgeable says that anthropogenic CO2 has no effect, it’s just that the effect is negligible when compared to all of the natural forces involved.
if CO2 was a major forcing function, the Chixalub impact – which set most of the Earth’s forests on fire – should have put us into a Venus-like state long ago.
Chixalub also vaporized quite a bit of limestone.
And created huge ammounts of Water Vapor
It also vaporized a portion of Crust material as well as aquatic lifeforms in the region
‘What is causing the Earth-facing Solar quiet’, good question, Phil. Has any solar physicist bothered to do any research into it?
Neil, just a random thought. What if the plane of PC’s planetary orbit(s) is approximately perpendicular to our line of sight? Might we rather be able to go from solar cycle to planetary deduction?
Okay, so the gas giants affect the solar cycle. It was not mentioned here, but is there any correlation regarding the position or movement of the solar barycenter as it moves around inside and sometimes outside the Sun?
http://semi.gurroa.cz/Astro/Orbital_Resonance_and_Solar_Cycles.pdf
I suspect that the reality is some combination of all of the above.
Agree with this one. For fun, I did a “solar system model” (a few years back) that allowed free movement of everything. It indicated the sun oscillated due to planetary motion in a pattern that correlated with sunspots. I did not take it to the depth of the authors — I like the track they are on.
Does this predict a SC25 as big as SC23? It seems to, from what I see in the graphics. As nice as the theory could be, if it doesn’t succeed in making predictions about the future, it is useless.
I was going to ask the same thing. Predictions please. Maybe that will be next. I hope so because so far it is very fascinating.
What a coincidence. This recent article comes with similar conclusion, except it blames Jupiter, Earth and Venus for it.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161004113753.htm
It has something to it. Venus applies second strongest tidal forces on Sun after Jupiter (about 13% of Jupiter), Saturn and Earth come only after that (both 9% of Jupiter force). Uranus and Neptune are negligible at 0.3% and 0.1%, even Mercury (3%) has more effect than them.
But with all that, even Jupiter’s tidal effect on Sun is very, very weak. Some time ago I read somewhere that on a completely quiet and perfectly spherical Sun, Jupiter would create a tidal wave 6 cm high. Compared that to Sun’s diameter and size of its surface features … no, I’m not really inclined to believing it has any effect.
If you read carefully, it’s not the absolute effect that counts. Rather, it’s a resonance effect where the planets “pump” a regular waveform and reinforce it or diminish it.
Planetary orbits in stable systems are determined in large part by resonance effects anyways.
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~renu/malhotra_preprints/unesco_malhotra_rev.pdf
http://semi.gurroa.cz/Astro/Orbital_Resonance_and_Solar_Cycles.pdf
And resonance depends on the frequency match between the resonator and forcing function.
Planets have tendency to fall into resonant orbits over millions of years because it’s a stable state of the system and impulses needed to achieve that are comparatively very small. But that has nothing to do with sun cycle. The sun resonating at 11 year period would require a “sound” wave propagating through the Sun at 2 m/s speed – I seriously doubt there’s physical principle that could possibly support that.
“It turns out that the interaction of Jupiter and Saturn causes most of the solar cycle.”
The solution does not involve Saturn:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/10/04/new-study-suggests-a-link-between-the-11-year-solar-cycle-and-the-tidal-effects-of-venus-the-earth-and-jupiter/#comment-2313731
Not correct. See papers sited in response to Kasuha above.
Yes it is the correct solution, and it accounts for everything that the Ju-Ea-Ve triplet cannot possibly account for on their own.
When solar activity decreases in the stratosphere show up two centers of low pressure, one over Canada, the other on the eastern Siberia. This is due to the fact that the Earth’s magnetic field in the north has two centers.
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat_a_f/gif_files/gfs_z100_nh_f00.png
http://www.geomag.bgs.ac.uk/data_service/models_compass/polarnorth.html
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat_a_f/gif_files/gfs_o3mr_200_nh_f00.png
From a simple point of view this correlates with the basic physics of the moon and tides.
Fascinating, so the Old Gods still exert their influence, just not the thunderbolts of the passing planets of yore.
Well, if the roman Jupiter, greek Zeus, has an influence on the solar and that influences climate, there may be thunderbolts and lightening:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/j/jupiter.html
Other titles of Jupiter include: Caelestis (heavenly), Lucetius (of the light), Totans (thunderer), Fulgurator (of the lightning).
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/z/zeus.html
Zeus was a celestial god, and originally worshipped as a weather god by the Greek tribes.
While I’m not saying I buy the “if” as being established, it does seems to be the historical belief that Jupiter / Zeus controlled the weather.
“Thus the cold period of the 1970s cooling period associated with Solar Cycle 20 may have been due to the influence of Uranus and Neptune.”
This is where most come unstuck. The global mean surface cooling in the mid 1970’s is literally because of stronger solar wind driving a positive NAO/AO regime, forcing a cold AMO and Arctic, and a multi-year La Nina.
I really don’t see the point in stating ( asserting ) such stuff as fact without any link to an explanation which can be looked into. Not saying you’re wrong, but it’s meaningless to pop up here and on C.E. and spout oddball hypotheses as fact without any proof.
Hypothesizing is hardly meaningless. Mechanism of causation, if it exists, is, so far, beyond our ken.
==========
“Not saying you’re wrong…. and spout oddball hypotheses”
You sound confused, and the hearsay is likely a self confession.
Ulric lyons:
You wrote: The global mean surface cooling in the mid 1970’s is literally because of stronger solar wind driving a positive NAO/AO regime, forcing a cold AMO and Arctic, and a Multi-year La Nina”
No, the cooling in the mid 1970’s was due to the large increase in strongly dimming anthropogenic sulfur dioxide aerosol emissions into the atmosphere, which peaked at 131 Megatonnes in 1972.
From large volcanic eruptions we know that emissions of sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere will cause global cooling, so cooling HAD to occur in the 1970’s because of the SO2 build-up.
Subsequent reductions in the amount of those emissions due to Clean Air efforts is solely responsible for the rising global temperatures since circa 1972
Stratospheric volcanic aerosol cooling of the surface promotes El Nino conditions.
ulric lyons:
You stated “stratospheric volcanic cooling promotes El Ninos”
??There were no El ninos associated with either the El Chichon or the Mount Pinatubo eruptions.
Wrong on 2 counts
1 There wasn’t any cooling in the 1970’s The cooling began in the 1940s and ended in the 1970s.
2. Aerosols are short-lived in the atmosphere. Most are washed out within a few days – or weeks at the most. They are (or were), therefore, most heavily concentrated in the industrialised regions of the NH. If there were a noticeable effect on climate it would have been in those regions. However from GISS data it’s clear it was the high latitude regions (above 64N) which experienced – by far – the largest cooling trend.
While some aerosols will find their way to the arctic, the effect of aerosols in the arctic is WARMING.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_haze
According to Tim Garrett, an assistant professor of meteorology at the University of Utah involved in the study of Arctic haze at the university, mid-latitude cities contribute pollution to the Arctic, and it mixes with thin clouds, allowing them to trap heat more easily. Garret’s study found that during the dark Arctic winter, when there is no precipitation to wash out pollution, the effects are strongest, because pollutants can warm the environment up to three degrees Fahrenheit.
John Finn:
To reply to your comments:
1. There was cooling in the mid-1960’s – early 1970’s. Recall that there was much talk about the possible return of an ice age because of the unusually cold temperatures.at that time.
2. Your comments about aerosols applies ONLY to intermittent or interrupted events.
Most all emissions are from relatively constant sources such as power plants, factories, foundries, vehicle exhausts, and the like, where they are constantly being renewed. As a result, their effective lifetime lasts until they are either modified to reduce emissions, or are shut down.
Average global temperatures ALWAYS rise during a business recession, due to reduced industrial activity, and the consequent fewer SO2 aerosol emissions into the atmosphere.
This could not happen unless there were a “reservoir”of SO2 aerosols in the atmosphere. When plants shut down, the aerosols can then be washed out, as you said, causing temporary warming due to the cleaner, more transparent air.
John GISS “data” is not data, stop calling it data, it is artifact.
Yes there were Burl
http://www.cpc.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/ensostuff/ensoyears.shtml
Burl Henry:
Check the GISS data. The 1950-75 trend is flat (slightly positive). Any post-1940 cooling happened in the first 5 -10 years. Unless you’re saying GISS have manipulated the data then I’m afraid you have to accept it. The 1970s were warmer than the 1960s. (and 1950s)
John Finn:
You wrote:
“There are sharper short-term functions which are caused by ENSO (El Nino & La Nina)”
This is somewhat true, but the MAJORITY of the increases are coincident with business recessions.
Log on to: WoodForTrees.org. Select “interactive”.
The graph that appears is for temperature anomalies.
Adjust it to span 1870-present.
You should print it out, and enlarge it.
Get list of recessions from nber.org/cycles.html
Between 1870 and the present there were 2 depressions and 28 recessions. You will find that all of them are coincident with a temporary increase in average global temperatures.(the one exception, Sept. 02 to Aug. 04 was because of an unusually strong La Nina offset the recession-induced warming)
(Note that the graph does show a steep drop in temperatures mid-1960’s-early 1970’s)
John Finn:
With respect to Sulfate Aerosol forcing, you say that its main effect is to cause cooling.
This is true, as long as it is present in the atmosphere. However, when it settles OUT of the atmosphere, it causes warming due to the cleaner, more transparent air, as is proven after every large volcanic eruption..
(This scientific fact is ignored by the IPCC in its diagram of radiative forcings, making it useless, since the warming due to aerosol removals is so large)
Clean Air efforts have reduced anthropogenic aerosol emissions by more than 30 Megatonnes since 1975, and the warming resulting from their reduction accounts for ALL of the surface warming that has occurred.
John Finn
October 14, 2016 at 12:08 pm
GISS has beyond any shadow of doubt manipulated the data. And that’s putting it mildly.
The ’60s and ’70s were colder than the ’40s and ’50s, plus of course the hot ’20s and ’30s. Compare GISS’ cooked books with the temperature data used by NCAR in the late ’70s to support the global cooling scare.
Jupiter takes 11.90 years to complete one revolution of its orbit Saturn and puts 29,50 years. These two planets is a cycle 19,86. Years of their conjunctions (Sun-Jupiter-Saturn) to the next through an opposition (Jupiter-Saturn-Sun) 9.93. Years after the first conjunction. This cycle is very close to double the Schwabe solar cycle with a duration of 8 to 13 years ie one Hales of the cycle of 22 years. The two other Jovian planets (Uranus and Neptune) pouraient be the cause of the variation in the length of these cycles.
http://system.solaire.free.fr/soleilactivite.htm
Currently, Jupiter and Saturn are close to each other. The activity of the Sun magnetic quite high.
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00829/5vgqw5v7t5w4.gif
In 2020 they begin to recede. Magnetic activity will decline.
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00829/s9c4o5uzfr3m.gif
In 2010, Jupiter and Saturn were in opposition.
http://images.tinypic.pl/i/00829/5lp6994kpytz.gif
Magnetic activity the sun was low.
Weather Action use planetary alignment and magnetics for forecasting and they have a damn good success rate, well ahead of the curve
Thanks for the comment, Mark. Unfortunately, Weather Action is Piers Corbyn. I’ll tell you why they have what you call a “damn good success rate”—Piers will claim anything as a damn good success, even if it is a flat-out failure.
For example, Piers predicted forest fires in Colorado and rated it a total success when there were forest fires in Arizona. He also famously also claimed success when he predicted a 50/50 chance of a cyclone and the cyclone didn’t form … hey, he did predict a 50% chance of it not forming, and in Corbynville that seems to be a big win …
Heck, he challenged people to bet with him regarding rain on the Olympics opening in London, but when I accepted the challenge he chickened out …
See here and here for further details, dates, times, and predictions. From everything I’ve seen (most of his forecasts are private pay-to-play and therefore unavailable) Piers is no better than throwing darts …
w.
Food for thought.
If your predictions are correct, then your science is correct, isn’t that how it works?
Interesting theory. The correlation is strong, but until they can come up with a mechanism, it will have to remain an interesting theory.
What correlation? I do not see anything here except a few pretty graphs about “the full model” without any comparison of what it is supposed to be modelling and how well it works.
There’s a teaser to follow the links but the total absence of anything concrete in this presentation does not lead me to expect much more when I dig. If there was I think it would be here as figure #1.
Indeed Greg, it looks very weak to me, and would fall flat on it’s face in address the Maunder or Dalton minimals
It is a HYPOTHESIS, not a theory.
There is a big difference between the two words.
“Interesting theory. The correlation is strong, but until they can come up with a mechanism, it will have to remain an interesting theory.”
Rather like the “it is natural” hypothesis. Until they can come up with a mechanism it will have to remain an interesting theory
Many causes of natural climate fluctuations are well understood. Others aren’t.
But the hypothesis of catastrophic man-made climate change has been repeatedly shown false, and the models upon which it is based demonstrated to lack skill, to put it mildly.
I would be interested to know how this theory handles things like the Dalton and Maunder minimums.
yep, strange we don’t see how it handles…. well anything.
MarkW,
it is NOT a theory, since it remains to be tested, achieve a level of validation, that allows it to be called a theory. That has not happened at this time, even Davids own post here shows that.
since it remains to be tested, achieve a level of validation, that allows it to be called a theory”
Just like that CO2 warming thought-bubble.
Ruzmaikin, Feynman and Yung. There is more than just one paper from this school of thought.
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Correlating Nile River levels and aurorae. There are long series of data.
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There is correlation without causation, but speculation about causation inevitably leads to other paths than merely Total Solar Insolation, which is remarkably stable.
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with one sun and millions of rivers are you amazed that you think you found something?
have a chat with bonferroni
Only one river with long and reliable records. Only one sun with long and reliable records.
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Your answer to Mosher below at 11:56 am is absolutely spot on. Classic Mosher misdirect. Only one long comparison made, so normal rules about spurious correlation apply.
PS have always loved you work, especially at BH (alas, now dormant)
kim October 13, 2016 at 7:00 am
As I’ve said more than once, if you’ll provide links to the study and the data I’ll be glad to look at it.
In any case, I looked at the nile data and the aurora data that I could find. Correlation of the two datasets during the period of the ovelap (625 to 1285) is 0.37 but is NOT statistically significant (p-value = 0.20). Bizarrely, the fit is better (0.47 vs 0.37) with the Nile LEADING the aurora by ten years … go figure.
In any case, I fear that a decadal count of observations of the aurora in the years e.g. 710 to 720 has an uncertainty running from the floor to the ceiling …
My rule of thumb is that if you have to go into paleo and proxy data to support your hypothesis, you are in deep trouble. After all, if the correlation between aurora records and nile river level records was so good back in the year 856, imagine how good it is now … so why are they not demonstrating the effect using recent records?
w.
What hypothesis, pray tell?
The Nile River series doesn’t run to today, as you would know if you have bothered to read the paper. Also, I suspect that if you read the paper you would be more capable than I am of finding the necessary data.
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But thanks for the cursory analysis you have done. It is helpful.
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Also, that the river levels precede the aurorae is only odd if you are considering that the something about aurorae causes the river levels. If you banish the bias caused by that presumption of causation, you might get curious about what is causative, if anything.
Nonetheless, you’ve been helpful. It may be that despite the length and the reliability of the data, it still may not suffice to be helpful to prove or disprove any hypothesis.
Hmmm, there is about a single half cycle difference in timing between the river levels and the aurorae. Curious, if that is a reliable measure.
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Also, during the Maunder Minimum, sunspots were ‘large, sparse, and primarily southern hemispheric’. I’ve long thought that the asymmetry was a huge clue, the size a smaller clue and the sparsity the smallest clue of the three. Yet most of the focus of the inquiry is upon sparsity.
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Fig.4 above shows the asymmetry of sunspots is increasing
May I remember to Dr. Theodor Landscheidt ?
I do wonder how this model relates to longer term climate effects like the LIA, not just shorter term solar cycles.
Ignore the millennial at your perennial.
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Two thoughts:
1) You could use this model to predict possible locations for any “Planet X”. For instance the polar hemisphere differences could be explained by “Planet X” having a highly inclined orbit. Not that one has to exist, of course, but the possibility cannot be ignored.
2) Sunspots have been observed on other stars.
http://www.solarweek.org/CS/t/1452.aspx
It would be interesting to see if similar cycles can be verified for other stars that have both spots and known planets.
You’re right to assume a gravitational forcing related to a planet with a high orbital angle. The inclinations of the outer planets are rather tiny. Unfortunately, if Planet X were close enough to have much effect, it would PROBABLY have been observed by now.
I’m not sure we have sufficient resolution to do sunspot (starspot?) studies at that distance. Nice, if so.
The post is interesting, but all I see, other than Figure 4, is model outputs and model outputs compared with other model outputs. I was afraid the post would degenerate into wiggle-matching, which is, again, merely interesting. The talk of being “out of phase” disturbs me. Sounds like “epicycles,” again. But more will be revealed, no doubt.
Just to throw this out, a decade ago I did an in depth look at sunspots, magnetism, and planetary orbits, and came to a strong opinion that the 11 year orbital period of Jupiter was a complete coincidence to the 11 year solar cycle.
Noted that the author here presents some graphs, but no basis for what makes the graphs. That is very suspect in my opinion, along side my prior detailed look at the 11 year cycles. The chart of Jupiter or Saturn alone, with nearly no effect, and then amazingly together, a huge effect….just saying, I think it’s plain wrong.
““the clearly dominant spectral band in sunspot number, the solar cycle of 10.8 years, is given by the configuration period of Jupiter and Saturn (19.859 yr) times the ratio of their distances from the Sun (0.545).”
Please explain the significance of using these numbers. And what is the 10.8 year solar cycle? There are actually no cycles of 10.8 years length. Perhaps it is all just self justifying numerology.
So the position of the planets influence the sun, which then influences our climate, which can then influence our lives and perhaps even our happiness. Does this mean Astrology may be onto something?