The Globe and Mail claims to have seen a leaked confidential seven billion dollar Ontario master plan, for all new homes to use geothermal or electric heating by 2030, and to provide grants to retrofit older buildings.
Ontario to spend $7-billion on sweeping climate change plan
The Ontario government will spend more than $7-billion over four years on a sweeping climate change plan that will affect every aspect of life – from what people drive to how they heat their homes and workplaces – in a bid to slash the province’s carbon footprint.
Ontario will begin phasing out natural gas for heating, provide incentives to retrofit buildings and give rebates to drivers who buy electric vehicles. It will also require that gasoline sold in the province contain less carbon, bring in building code rules requiring all new homes by 2030 to be heated with electricity or geothermal systems, and set a target for 12 per cent of all new vehicle sales to be electric by 2025.
…
- $3.8-billion for new grants, rebates and other subsidies to retrofit buildings, and move them off natural gas and onto geothermal, solar power or other forms of electric heat. Many of these programs will be administered by a new Green Bank, modelled on a similar agency in New York State, to provide financing for solar and geothermal projects.
- New building code rules that will require all homes and small buildings built in 2030 or later to be heated without using fossil fuels, such as natural gas. This will be expanded to all buildings before 2050. Other building code changes will require major renovations to include energy-efficiency measures. All homes will also have to undergo an energy-efficiency audit before they are sold.
- $285-million for electric vehicle incentives. These include a rebate of up to $14,000 for every electric vehicle purchased; up to $1,000 to install home charging; taking the provincial portion of the HST off electric vehicle sales; an extra subsidy program for low– and moderate-income households to get older cars off the road and replace them with electric; and free overnight electricity for charging electric vehicles.
If I lived in Ontario, I would be deeply concerned about this plan.
Electric home heating is fine, until the electricity fails. When my family lived in Britain, our 6Kw coal burner was indispensable, especially when power lines were damaged by blizzards.
Geothermal systems, heat pumps which take advantage of the relatively constant ground temperature, are expensive, and require electric power to operate.
As for electric cars, a petroleum or diesel car can keep the occupants warm and safe for many hours, if the car is trapped in heavy snow. An electric car, with its much lower energy density, and the susceptibility of batteries to cold, not so much.
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“Geothermal systems, heat pumps which take advantage of the relatively constant ground temperature, are expensive, and require electric power to operate.”
I disagree. Heat pumps are not expensive to run.
I live in Sweden and have a heat pump in my house. Sure, there is a higher installation cost depending on where you want to extract the energy from, air, just below surface or from a drilled hole (150-200m).
My system has a heatpump that generates 5kw heat and any heating power needed above that is made pure electricity. It is usally only during very cold winterdays that is needed. My heat pump has been running on pure electricity due to high energy need about 2-3% of the time according to the log.
To get 5kw heat out of my drilled hole it consumes about 1,5-1,8kw electricity and that is what I pay for.
My system had a pay of time off 7 years based on the oil price in 2003.
So for the first 7 years the cost was about the same as using oil to heat the house. After that the cost of heating my home is roughly 35% compared to if I would use oil.
There is no difference getting a power outage with oil heating or heat pump, both systems will die if they do not have any electricty available.
So basically 65% of the energy I use today is free of charge,
No one disagrees with heat pump basics, if you can justify the payback period vs. outlay cost like you did, good for you (oil is more expensive than gas for heating here). You are missing the point, the government will take MY money and give it to someone else to install a heat pump. That is where the problem lies. What about all the people who paid out of pocket, like you, and now are giving them away. Maybe the Government should help everyone buy Tesla’s too. I am all for energy efficiency, the building codes are decades old and need updating but don’t ask me to help pay for someone’s new furnace that needed to be replaced anyway.
I have relatives in Sweden, say hello from Canada.
Thast how taxes works, take money from someone to be able to give them to someone else. It doesn’t matter if it is improving energy efficency, paying for child care or building new railway. There will allways be things that we have to pay for that we personally have no need for.
For example in Sweden we can currently, since a few years, get reduced cost when renovating our houses. It is paid with taxes. Someone else “pays” for a part of the work cost. No difference really.
The purpose is to make more people hire someone to do the work since it is cheaper and thus creating more jobs.
Thats taxes at work, take from everyone and then aim at specific areas. Sometimes the tax money come back to you, sometimes they don’t. You still have to pay your share for everything even though you do not have need for everything.
The ofcourse you can argue weather the tax money should used to speed up the process making houses more energy efficient.
In my case when installing my heat pump no subsidies where needed since it had a good pay off time due to a big drop in energy costs.
But if the case would be switching from one energy form to another with the same energy cost, not many would do it without subsidies unless they had no other choice.
Where in Sweden do your relatives live? I actually have a cousing who is living in Canada near Toronto. =)
Jerker Andersson commented: “….Thats taxes at work, take from everyone and then aim at specific areas….”
That’s how taxes in a Socialist government work. In a Democratic government tax revenue is supposed to benefit all. Tax revenue for special interests are supported through voting…..in theory anyway.
That’s the problem with “payback period”. Say J A above saves 1000 a year (I’m guessing as he doesn’t say) in electric costs against the maintenance upkeep and life of the unit (mechanical device). If the unit life is only 14 years, then he could be in a loop where the savings have to be applied to maintenance and the next unit replacement (and downtime). Simpler oil or gas units have less mechanics and typically last longer/have less maintenance/costs.
BFL
May 16, 2016 at 1:47 pm
It had 7 year payback time which means I can redo the complete installation every 7th year and it would cost just as much as running on oil, not including the cost that a oilbruner also must be changed eventually.
Oil price is about the same as electricity per kWh currently but I only pay for 35% of the energy with a heat pump, 65% is for free.
Converted to CAD I pay 0,06 CAD/kWh of heat currently. Electricity costs about 0.19 CAD/kWh.
For me it was just a matter of getting as much kWh of heat for the money invested.
Only by cutting my own wood and burning it would give me a lower price but the workload to save a little more would be huge.
My pump has been running for 13 years so far.
When it breaks down I do not have to pay the full price again because I do not have to pay for drilling a 150m deep hole, removing the old oil burner, cleaning and removing the oil tank.
Just replacing the heatpump which is about 50% of the cost. Payoff time for a new heatpump when replacing the existing one would be 3-4 years compared to burning oil or using electricity.
But this thread was about subsidies also. In Sweden there is no need for subsidies to change to heat pumps specifically because you save alot of money doing so compared to oil/electricity,
I understand taxes pay for a needed road bridge that I will never use as example. But there are other road bridges that I do use. Or taxes that pay for needy disabled people to get therapy that I will never use (yet). Or planting trees to beautify the city.
In this case they are MAKING a NEED (opposed to solving an existing problem) in the name of saving CO2. As I don’t believe CO2 is dangerous, the money is not being well spent IMO. They are making a ‘fake’ economy. And don’t fool yourself, Ontario’s dept is $300 billion dollars. That is about $60,000 per working man/woman (non-government). They are not “using tax dollars”, they are using credit that my children will have to pay off (maybe never). How much CO2 will they save? Will it make a difference?
If something is worth doing, you don’t need incentives as was in your case with geothermal. It does matters on your belief system. 7 billion would fix a lot of other actual issues.
Family is in Lerum, near Gothenberg. Good day.
Jerker – Agree with you – see my comment above on my own heat pump that I installed with underfloor heating 13 years ago. However, as propane prices are so low these days, I am adding a propane fueled loop to heat my storage tank so I can used whichever source is cheaper, though most of the time I use wood cut off my land as my primary heat source.
“There is no difference getting a power outage with oil heating or heat pump, both systems will die if they do not have any electricty available.”
The difference is that I can run my gas furnace, lights and etc., from an axillary generator. I could not heat my home with the electricity from the generator.
In the next house I build probably in 5 years or so, I will probably put in a geothermal system. For backup, I would put in a gas fired unit so that the systems can be ran if necessary off a backup generator.
Luckily I don’t live in Ontario because then I would have to help fund subsidies for everyone else to get new geothermal furnaces.
The problem with governments like Ontario’s socialists is that they are very stupid when it comes to economics. Consult experts on what would be an achievable energy efficiency goal that is also economic. Then change the building code for new builds to increase the energy efficiency standards and let consumers figure out how to meet it. For new furnaces that are installed, increase the efficiency standard for those as well.
Most gas furnaces today are high efficiency models that are better than 95% efficiency AFUE. Mine is 97%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_fuel_utilization_efficiency
For an air to air heat pump you only get that kind of COP at ambient temps over +5C, where you hardly need heat unless you live in a cardboard box! Ground source extends the range but has much higher initial costs, such that only ridiculously low interest rates justify it in most cases, and then only if you believe in fairy tales on repair and maintenance. If your heating oil is heavily taxed it might make your economics work but don’t foist that baloney on the rest of us. I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.
Some one call Rush’s show today and get Mark Stein to do his take on this on air, should be a riot.
There is a really good principle of local government that deserves to be enshrined in law: local govt should concern itself only with local issues, so yes to local air pollution, no to attempts to change the global climate. Since Ontario is to clean air what Delhi is to smog then its an open and shut case.
you only say that cuz you can’t see hamilton
and you can’t see hamilton cuz the brown cloud obscures it.
The coldest country is worried about a slight increase in global avg temps. Talk about selling ice to Eskimos. Sheesh, one really does get the government they deserve. When did practical Canadians become so stupid? GK
It’s embarrassing!
When they became culturally obsessed by ‘process’ rather than ‘results’.
This is only about Ontario not the rest of Canada. The Liberal Ontario provincial government is responsible for environment and energy policy in the province and have been making very damaging policies and decisions. Ontari government elections are dominated by the area in and around Toronto where the population has blindly gone along with anything that looks and sounds greenish. Could possibly change in the next 2018 election if some of there draconian policies go ahead.
Make work program for construction contractors. And just wait until all the faux contractors start to defraud the gullible.
Oooo!! Great plan! The more changes in form energy makes, and the longer the distance electricity is transmitted, the more efficient its usage. No, wait. That’s not right.
Maybe this works better: Using smart meter technology, electrically heated homes can be controlled from a central location. Excess energy use (defined by the State) can be prevented by simply rationing the power people get. And, of course, electric cars can be controlled and altered from a distance, as Tesla has proven.
Is that too paranoid? Really?
Okay. How about this: when electricity and home heat fails, when electric cars run out of juice and strand people without heat in the bitter winter cold, those deaths can then be attributed to global warming. After all, if it weren’t for global warming, the people who died of cold exposure from failed electricity would’ve had natural gas for heat, or gasoline for fuel, and they’d still be alive.
Do they have any idea?
Firstly, losing 50% of the energy by creating electricity, before sending that energy to the household user, is a tad wasteful. Why not burn the energy in the household, and get 90% efficiency instead? You could invent a “domestic boiler” to burn the fuel. Its not rocket science.
Secondly, you will need to significantly increase the number of power stations. The UK the energy split in 2011 was:- Electricity 21%. Transport 32%. Heating 37%.
Even if some efficiencies could be made, like car charging only at night when electrical demand is low, it is still clear that the number of power station would have to be doubled or tripled to cope with the extra demand.
And how much would that cost? And what fuel would all these power stations use? Because if they end up using fossil fuels, then why not use those fossil fuels directly for heating and transport, where they can be used much more efficiently?
UK 2011 energy consumption by sector:
http://www.carbondescent.org.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Jonas-1.bmp
Sorry, try this image:
UK 2011 energy consumption by sector:
http://www.carbondescent.org.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Jonas-1.jpg
This is ON where only a small amount of electricity production still comes from fossil fuels. We are mostly nuclear and hydro. <10% from each of gas(falling) and wind (growing fast). samll abount from salarand biogas. 0 from coal. We have siginficant capacity to the point rates are going up because we arent using enough
Phasing out natural gas? The cleanest and most abundant natural, that is: natural, the clue is in the name, energy source?
These people must be mad.
Hey! They spent 2B to NOT build two gas plants! Everything they do now makes more sense than that.
A different and more accurate headline would be “Ontario decides poor will not be allow to heat their homes by 2030”.
It’s a perfect Green recipe for depopulation. Who will remain to keep the elite in the style they’re accustomed to? Will the US build a wall to keep you lot out?
Who is going to build these houses? Lord knows that you won’t be able to sell them for anywhere near as much as a house with forced air gas heating. I can see a sudden drop in the numbers of house builders since we are dealing with a free market (for now). The only way this plan can happen is if the government forces builders to build and forces buyers to buy.
There is not even one good idea in this plan for Canada. Wind turbines ice up and also require electric heating while idle to keep them workable in case the wind does pick up. And the turbine blades ice up big time, losing lots of efficiency, and requiring de-icing, if available. Otherwise, they have to wait until the ice falls off.
Solar that far north is just plain stupid. Not only does it need to be kept clean but ice and snow will be a constant problem, let alone the low angle of solar input during a large part of the year.
I do wonder how they can have less carbon in gasoline. Do they plan to add a lot of alcohol? Above 11% or so, gasohol eats engines, destroying them. If the goal is to destroy wealth, this is exactly how to do it. I bet they also outlaw fireplaces and wood-burning stoves.
Recently moved to WA and was unpleasantly surprised to discover that the original home of cheap electricity now has the same electricity prices as CA. This is thanks to CA, driven by escalating renewables mandates, bidding up the price of WA hydro-power.
Comparing the prices per btu of thermal energy, electricity is now three times as expensive as natural gas in WA (and heading higher still, while fracking advances send gas lower), so I am busily trying to switch everything I can to gas. These Canadians sure must think they are rich, or else they are just planning on freezing. Pretty sure the latter is actually the green plan for humanity.
But Alex, look on the bright side. You probably got enough from your little Palo Alto house to buy a mansion in WA! ☺
Yeah that’s the dirty little secret. PG&E in order to make the AB32 quota buy hydro power from out of state. PG&E are pretty good with hydro but not THAT good! So they cheat.
… and this is where they lose the body politic, when they show how stupid they are, how much sacrifice and suffering they demand.
But still they were smart enough to say that the changes won’t occur until other politicians are in office, to be pilloried by the pitchfork carrying mob.
I must have missed it somewhere, but what is this supposed to accomplish? What is the supposedly temperature effect if one believes in that?
I think back to Archie Bunker, dingbat!
OMG How stupid does the Liberal Gov’t think people are? It is currently costing me in Toronto about $1,300 to Heat with Natural Gas in a home built 22 years ago. If we change to High Efficiency, the cost should drop below $1,000. If we go all electric, it will cost over $3,000 given the cost of Ontario Hydro and the increases already set to come. In addition to this, Ontario does not have sufficient Generation Facilities so they will have to build either Nuclear or Natural Gas. There is no economic valid reason to do this and the Green issue is destroyed by the necessity for additional Generation Facilities.
There seems to be a huge difference in cost/kWh for electricity and Gas in Canada.
What is the total price per kWh for electricity and Gas?
In Sweden we currently pay around 0,18CAD/kWh. (1,18 SEK) but it varies up and down around that price.
Oil price is almost exactly the same if you consider an oil burner with 80% efficiency, not all are brand new.
So going from oil to electricity would not make your wallet thicker here. It would require an energy form with lower price/kWh or equipment that can extract energy that you do not have to pay for in order to lower your energy costs. Natural Gas is not common as an energy source in Sweden.
Electricity varies across Canada. About .10 kW in U.S. dollars where I live. Nat gas is less than half the cost of electricity as there is a surplus of nat gas landlocked in N.A. Heating oil is comparable to electricity. In Ontario, electricity prices are rising due to some very poor past maneuvers which appear to be continuing.
I live in Ontario and my house is all natural gas and my bill is about 900.00 dollars a year with a eighteen thousand foot house in rural ontario. I have only lights and a refrigerator and freeger electric and two people in the house and make sure lighting is only on when necessary with r 50 insulation, new wndows iand doors, and a new 98 ef furnace my electric bill is now over 140.00 a month and I only use average of 16 kwh per day and of that average of 10 kwh off peak hours
How about 1800 sq. ft.?
I have a friend that put a geothermal system into his new house in BC about five years ago, $25,000. This system has a multitude of pipes, a well and an equipment room in the house with enough piping, wiring, valves, solenoids to make a power engineer fall in love. The thing is all this equipment requires maintenance, seems to me lots of maintenance=costly running expense. My gas furnace is fifteen years old, all I do is change filters and dust it off once a year.
You get the prize. I’m a journeyman AC/heating tech with tons of design experience and I can buy wholesale and I wouldn’t put in a heat pump. Even High-E furnaces are doubtful benefit over a mid- efficient. More government coercion.
I just replaced my ancient low efficiency furnace with a two stage high efficiency furnace. The house is a lot more comfortable. That’s worth something.
My theory is that the furnace spends most of its time firing on low. The heat is thus much more even.
Our premier appears to be incompetent.
She is on an eco-religious crusade. She is indifferent to the welfare of the citizens. She knows the path to the New green Jerusalem and she’s dragging you all there whether you understand or don’t want to whatever! By the way, the future is Socialist and rainbow coloured.
I guess she isn’t so “premier” then. Maybe second rate.
I am sure ontario suffers power outages in winter like I do here in maine.
I can fire up the portable generator and run house (well, oil fired hot air furnace,fridge, washing machine, propane heated dryer and oven) and drive on.
would hate to flip the breaker for electric heat when on portable gen..
There are a number of issues, and, in no particular order:
“Mr. Murray also aggravated colleagues with an Economic Club speech last month, in which he chastised auto companies for not doing enough to fight climate change and mused about closing down the province’s nuclear power plants.”
Base load power generation comes from where? Not combined cycle gas turbines as they are forbidden under this policy. Not nuclear. There is no base load power generation in the proposal.
The present windmill farms are in the rural areas, mostly located near the Eastern shore of Lake Huron. The electrical grid needs to be expanded to these farms.
My present Hydro One bill charges $450 CAD per year just for connectivity to the grid. One’s electricity is on top of that: $0.21 CAD/ KWhr.
The proposal is for $ 7 Billion CAD in subsidies over 4 years. After 4 years, no more subsidies and the added electric and infrastructure costs will fall to the rate payers.
The present automobile factory in Oakville (near Toronto) making the Ford Edge would move down South with the full implementation of electric rates 5 times what they pay now. BTW Ford has just invested in their new EcoBoost engine and it is unlikely Ford would build another “world engine” in the very near future as this Ontario administration is suggesting. Emissions and fuel economy improvements are not just a tweak away. Maybe the Canadian branch of the United Auto Workers envision a cleaner environment when their jobs slip through their fingers for ecological reasons.
Speaking of cars, electric cars will be subsidized to the tune of $14,000 CAD per vehicle. There is no subsidy planned for the battery replacement costs in @ur momisugly 3 to 5 years of $5,000 to $6,000/ new set. And for those people who are driving their electric vehicle out of town, having to recharge the batteries every two hours or so, gives one a chance to get out and stretch you legs for 2 to 4 hours; a very healthful feature. And in winter, with the extra electricity draw, when the heater is going and the lights are on and the windshield wipers are going, and…all of a sudden, you’re out of juice; then you become a pedestrian; another very healthful feature.
Well recalling the years I spent in Canada, Canadian citizens have always been totally reliant on electricity during the winter months as the gas central heating furnaces, as I recall, were typically controlled by electricity. Therefore no electricity, no furnace operation leads to freezing ones gonads and the water until spring.
But in the case of Ontario, why not build gas electricity generating plants. Will move the emissions from the home to wherever – just like electric cars will do. Great scheme! Not quite sure of the logic though.
Cheers
Roger
http://www.rogerfromnewzealand.wordpress.com
Its only about 10% of electicity generation left from gas in ON. zero from coal. Irrrespective of cost, its clearly cleaner to move to electric heat
Perhaps, but now it is ludicrously expensive in Ontario especially if you are outside the cities on Hydro1. Nobody in their right mind except Ontario Environment Minister Glen Murray and Energy Minister Bob Chiarelli would even consider switching to electric home heating, but these guys seem to have no right mind at all.
285 Million for EVs
Up to $14,000 subsidy per vehicle
There are 11,438,574 registered vehicles in Ontario ( http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/trade14b-eng.htm )
That looks like about $25 per vehicle not even 1% of 14,000. Of course not every vehicle would be EV subsidized, but you get the point.
On the other hand, there are tons of business opportunities here for the people that want to suck the taxpayers dry.
RiHo08 May 16, 2016 at 2:24 pm wrote:
“Mr. [Glen] Murray also aggravated colleagues with an Economic Club speech last month, in which he chastised auto companies for not doing enough to fight climate change and mused about closing down the province’s nuclear power plants.”
No idiot like an innumerate, scientifically and technologically, ignorant politician.
Bruce Nuclear Power [BNP] Station, the largest in the world, on the shores of Lake Huron, Ontario, Canada generates 45,000 MWh of energy in a year. This is about 30% of Ontario’s total energy requirements. BNP only occupies two large building by the shoreline.
Surrounding BNP, as far as the eye can see and past the horizon, is the Underwood 110 wind turbine facility which produces about only 380 MWh of energy in a year. A drop in the Great Lakes with regards to Ontario’s energy requirements. At any given time, about 1 in 10 wind turbines are down for wear and tear maintenance.
The energy density of wind is too low for it to become cost effective. This is one of the key reasons that our industrial age ancestors stopped using wind power as soon are higher energy density alternative became available.
Four BNP’s could provide all the energy Ontario would require for the forseeable future with additional energy for export.
Ignatz Ratzkywatzky
I drive by BMP about 2 dozen times a year and have watched the evolution of wind turbines. The windmills are not all turning on a windy day. Some have caught fire and stood in silent reminder of things that can and do go wrong. The electrical grid has almost doubled, taking base load and wind turbine generated electricity to Southern Ontario, or, when there is just too much, sent South to the US electrical grid at discounted rates, or free, or paying the US to take it. Starting at Sarnia and heading North on Route 21, there has been an exponential grow of wind turbine farms now all the way up Route 6 into the Bruce Peninsula and the various Provincial Parks along the way.
All these wind turbines are quite attractive I might say, blinking lights, illuminating dark skies where ordinances against street and business night sky lighting (dark sky) give a pass to wind turbines. Really not much light pollution at all, they’re just winking. There is nothing like standing on Lake Huron’s shore on a summer’s evening watching another vivid “Canadian Sunset” set to the music of “whoosh, whoosh, whoosh” of the turbine blades. And lets not forget the jobs these turbines bring to the local area, the riggers, and mechanics, electricians, all…imported from State’s side. Here today, gone tomorrow. So much like… sort of transient poetic justice. And if you look just right through the cedar bush, standing tall, gleaming white on a 350 foot pedestal, white migratory fowl bird mincers at work. The crows that pick at the carcasses, gather in great wheels in the sky, descend to the fields and feast. No fighting as there is plenty for all. But of course, all of this is out of sight for the Toronto-ites who eschew gas turbine electricity, prefer it located in Sarnia. All of the unsightliness of wind turbines and their aftermath are also, almost willfully, out of sight and out of mind.
Remind me of the virtue of these environmentally conscious, nay, fastidious Ontario-ites who voted for this government?
I have not had the pleasure of spending a winter in Canada, but my brother lived in Ottawa for quite some time. He told my about a particular snow storm, some 20 years ago (?) when all the power lines were brought down. Those with electric heating froze. Those with electric control systems on their gas heater froze. Those with manually controlled gas heating managed to stay warm.
Another well thought out initiative by ‘those who know better’. Except this time they will be killing people.
Most natural gas furnaces in Ontario operate with air ducts and floor vents powered through by an electric fan in the furnace housing. Older properties typically in central areas of cities may have water-circulation radiators either an electric pump or sometimes gravity fed in multi-floor buildings. I’m not aware of any “manually controlled gas furnace’ systems. During the freezing ice-storm a few years ago when some many areas lost electric power for days or weeks due to overhead power cables, some practical people were able to operate their heating systems and circulation with their own generator. Others like me with a woodstove and plentiful wood supply were not affected at all.
At least the Ontario energy woes are coming out for an international discussion.
If what the Ontario premier has proposed for Ontario goes through, then this same thing can be put-over elsewhere.