The Epistemology of Explaining Climate Forecasting so an 8 Year Old Can Understand it

Guest essay by Dr. Norman Page

 1.  Introduction

Dr. Leif Svalgaard said in a comment on a WUWT post:

August 17, 2015 at 2:27 pm    

“If you cannot explain your finding to an [attentive] eight-year old, you don’t understand it yourself.”
I agree entirely.
Miriam – Webster defines Epistemology as
” the study or a theory of the nature and grounds of knowledge especially with reference to its limits and validity “
epistemology
2.  Granddaughter – You asked – Is the world going to burn up and how do we know?
Ava – Lets  think about when  the temperature is warmer and colder outside. It is hotter when the sun shines during the day and colder at night when our part of the earth is turned away from the sun .You know already that it takes 24 hours for the earth to turn around once to make what we call a cycle from warm to cold and back again.
You also know that it is much hotter in summer than winter and that is because the sun shines longer   and is higher in the sky in summer than in winter. Each year there is a cycle  from warm to cold and back again which takes 365 days.Scientists have  measured or estimated in various ways what the earth’s temperature was  back for hundreds and thousands of years and  can see that there are other hot – cold cycles. Two of the most important ones have cycle lengths of about 60 and 1000 years. Here is a picture showing some of the 1000 year cycles.
Fig 1 (http://www.climate4you.com/)  -(See Humlum’s overview section)
To know what is going to happen in the future we first  have to know where the earth is in the 1000 year temperature cycle. Here is another picture that shows what the temperatures were in the northern part of the earth over the last 2000 years. Look especially at what happened during the last 1000 years.
See the warm peak at the year 1000 – then look where we are now at the right hand side of the picture. You can see that the earth is just getting near to, is just at or just past the peak warmth of a 1000 year cycle.
How can we tell which it is. We know that the amount of sunshine which reaches our bit of the earth often changes the temperature by tens of degrees between night and day and as much as 100 degrees sometimes between cold winter nights and the hottest summer days. We also know that the sun itself puts out more energy and its magnetic field is stronger at the activity peaks of its various  cycles.
What is the sun doing now? Here is a picture that shows us what has been going on.
You can see that sun itself also has cycles of activity of 11-12 years in length. When the red line gets nearer to the bottom of the picture the sun is more active, its magnetic field is stronger and fewer Galactic Cosmic Rays hit the earth.

Fig 3 ( http://cosmicrays.oulu.fi/       )

You can see that  solar activity was increasing , that is, the red line  got closer to the bottom of the picture, in each cycle until about 1991 and that the solar  cycle peaks and lows since then are closer to the top of the picture showing a decline in solar activity. This suggests that the 1000 year peak in solar activity may  now be behind us in about 1991.
Because it takes some time for the oceans to warm up and cool down, there is a delay before  the peak in solar activity  shows itself in the earth’s temperature. The best measure we have of global temperatures is made by satellites. Here is a picture of how temperatures have changed in the satellite age.
Fig 4
You  can see how the 1991 peak in solar activity in Fig 3 shows up in the peak in the average global temperatures  ( the green rising  and blue- falling lines) about 12 years later  at 2003 in Fig 4. and that the earth has been cooling slightly since then just as the solar activity declined from 1991 to today.
Ava – you ask.- What about the future.?
Well the simplest and most likely  guess for starters  is that the 1000 year cycle from 2003 – 3003 will have a temperature curve whose general shape is similar to the cycle from 1000 – 2003. see  Fig 2 .
If you look at that Figure again you can see that the Northern Hemisphere average temperature cooled by a bit under 2 degrees from 1000 to about 1635 so that we might expect a similar cooling from 2003 to 2638 – of course with various ups and downs along the way .
The warm peak at about 1000 was a good time for people when the Vikings were able to live  in Greenland.  Harvests  were good and  people in Europe had time  and money to spare to start building cathedrals  The cold period around 1635 – to 1700 is called the Maunder Minimum when the Sun was so quiet that the Sun  spots disappeared. Most people living before about 1850 grew their own food. Before then, if  just a few extra- cold years followed one after the other, millions of people starved to death because their harvests failed.
Man made CO2 had no effect on these temperature changes. In fact President Obama is very wrong to call CO2 a pollutant. It is the absolutely essential plant food. Without it life as we know it could not exist. Plants grow better as CO2 increases. About 25% of the increase in food production in the 20th century was due simply to the increase in CO2 in those years –  a great benefit to mankind.
Ava asks – the blue line is almost flat. – When will we know for sure that we are on the down slope of the thousand year cycle and heading towards another Little Ice Age.
Grandpa says- I’m glad to see that you have developed an early interest in Epistemology. Remember ,I mentioned the 60 year cycle, well, the data shows that the temperature peak in 2003 was close to a peak in both that cycle and the 1000 year cycle. If we are now on the downslope of the 1000 year cycle then the next peak in the 60 year cycle at about 2063 should be lower than the 2003 peak and the next 60 year peak after that  at about 2123 should be lower again, so, by that time ,if the peak  is lower,  we will be pretty sure that we are on our way to the next little ice age.
 That is a long time to wait, but we will get some useful  clues a long time before that.Look again at the red curve in  Fig 3 – you can see that from the beginning of 2007 to the end of 2009 solar activity dropped to the lowest it has been for a long time. Remember the 12 year delay between the 1991 solar activity peak and the 2003 temperature peak, if there is a similar delay in the response to lower solar activity , earth  should see a cold spell from  2019 to 2021 when you will be in Middle School.
It should  also be noticeably cooler at the coolest part of the 60 year cycle – halfway through  the present 60 year cycle at about 2033.
We can watch for these things to happen but meanwhile  keep in mind that the overall cyclic trends can be  disturbed  for a time in some years  by the El Nino weather patterns in the Pacific and the associated high temperatures that we see in for example  1998 and 2010  (fig 2) and that we might see  before the end of this year- 2015.
3. Ava says -It looks like the Earth is going to cool down- Why is my teacher and  President Obama saying the earth is going to get very hot and the Polar Bears are all going to die
unless I walk to school ?
Well Ava – I would have to write a book to explain how so many different people came to be so wrong for so long about so much- sometimes with the best of intentions. Here is a short story telling what happened.
In 1968 a man called Ehrlich published a book called the Population Bomb. He thought the number of people on earth was growing so fast that there soon wouldn’t be enough food to feed everybody, He said in the book.
 In the 1970s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. At this late date nothing can prevent a substantial increase in the world death rate” 
Some people at the time got very worried and put their guesses about such things as future population growth, food production ,oil supplies, industrial production and mineral reserves into a computer program.. They intended to look at possible future problems and also  explore the possibility  that the peoples and governments of the earth could agree on a way of running the worlds economy  that could besustainable, that is, go on for a long time. They put all this in a book called The Limits to Growth published in 1972.
 A very energetic business man called Maurice Strong who knew a lot of very influential people persuaded the United Nations that, as he himself believed and indeed still strongly believes,  this sustainability problem was very serious.The UN and Sweden organized a meeting in 1972 in Stockholm to discus the interaction of humans with the environment. Strong was appointed  by his UN friend U Thant , to be  the General Secretary of the meeting. Strong,  by nature, is very determined and action oriented and he and the conference produced an incredibly detailed 109 point  action plan designed to give the UN input and even control over individual Government environmental  policies world wide. As  one of the actions, the United Nations Environmental Program  ( UNEP) was organized in 1973 with Mr Strong himself as Executive Director.
Ten years later it was obvious that the predictions of imminent death and disaster were wrong. The people at UNEP still wanted to take global control of the worlds economy. They realized that if they could show that the CO2 ( carbon dioxide) produced by burning coal and oil to make electricity and drive our cars might cause a dangerous warming of the earth they would  be able to scare the Governments and people into writing laws giving the UN ( and them) control over the world’s economy by controlling the type of energy used and its price.
UNEP organized a meeting of scientists at a place called Villach in Austria in 1985 to see if they could show that CO2 was dangerous. The scientists said
“Although the observed global-scale warming experienced over the past ~100 years is compatible with model estimates of the magnitude of the greenhouse effect, unequivocal, statistically convincing detection of the effects of changing CO2 and trace gas levels on climate is not yet possible. An important problem in the positive identification of a greenhouse gas effect on climate is to explain the medium to long time scale (~decades or more) fluctuations in the past record. Attempts to model such changes have, to date, suffered from a number of deficiencies.”
Ava – In other words they couldn’t prove  any effects of man made  CO2 on climate.
But whoever  wrote the official summary statement and recommendations said:
“As a result of the increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases, it is now believed that in the first half of the next century a rise of global mean temperature could occur which is greater than any in man’s history. “
The report made two important recommendations. As a result of one ,the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was set up to select from the  evidence and from time to time produce reports which would show that CO2 was the main driver of dangerous climate change and a second recommendation resulted in a meeting in Rio in 1992 chaired by Maurice Strong himself which produced the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change , later signed by 196 governments.
The objective of the treaty is to keep greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere at a level that they guessed  would prevent dangerous man made  interference with the climate system.
This treaty is really a comprehensive, politically driven, political action plan called Agenda 21 designed to produce a centrally managed global society which would control every aspect of the life of every one on earth.
It says :
“The Parties should take precautionary measures to anticipate, prevent or minimize the

causes of climate change and mitigate its adverse effects. Where there are threats of serious or

irreversible damage, lack of full scientific certainty should not be used as a reason for postponing

such measures”

In other words if the models show there  is even a small chance of very bad things happening the Governments who signed the treaty should act now  to stop it. But how good are the  computer Models?

The successive five  reports of the IPCC  in the Summaries for Policymakers written by Government representatives  have clamed increasing certainty for the outcomes of their Model based projections  of future temperature which is not supported by  the Science sections of the reports or the actual data.

Remember the Villach meeting said
 “in the first half of the next century a rise of global mean temperature could occur which is greater than any in man’s history.”
All the models and projections made since 1985  were built in the assumption that CO2 was the main climate change driver- for that and for many other reasons they are in reality useless for forecasting future temperatures.
Here is a picture of what really happened as CO2 levels rose rapidly in the 21st century
As you can see there has been no global warming at all since about 1997.
The climate models on which the entire Catastrophic Global Warming delusion rests are built without regard to the natural 60 and more importantly 1000 year cycles so obvious in the temperature record. The modelers  approach is simply a scientific disaster and lacks even average commonsense .It is exactly like taking the temperature trend from say Feb – July and projecting it ahead linearly for 20 years or so. They back tune their models for less than 100 years when the relevant time scale is millennial. This is scientific malfeasance on a grand scale.
 The temperature  projections of the IPCC –  UK Met office models and all the impact studies which derive from them have no solid foundation in empirical science being derived from inherently useless and specifically structurally flawed models. They provide no basis for the discussion of future climate trends and represent an enormous waste of time and money.  As a foundation for Governmental climate and energy policy their forecasts are already seen to be grossly in error and are therefore worse than useless.
 Here is a picture which shows the sort of  thing  they did when they projected a cyclic trend in a straight line..
 
 A new forecasting method needs to be adopted. For forecasts of the timing and extent of the coming cooling based on the natural solar activity cycles – most importantly the millennial cycle – and using the neutron count and 10Be record as the most useful proxy for solar activity check my blog-post at
(Section 1 has a complete discussion of the uselessness of the climate models.)
“In the Novum Organum (the new instrumentality for the acquisition of knowledge) Francis Bacon classified the intellectual fallacies of his time under four headings which he called idols. The fourth of these were described as :
Idols of the Theater are those which are due to sophistry and false learning. These idols are built up in the field of theology, philosophy, and science, and because they are defended by learned groups are accepted without question by the masses. When false philosophies have been cultivated and have attained a wide sphere of dominion in the world of the intellect they are no longer questioned. False superstructures are raised on false foundations, and in the end systems barren of merit parade their grandeur on the stage of the world.”
Climate science has fallen victim to this fourth type of idol.
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AndyE
August 31, 2015 10:53 am

My 9 year old granddaughter is a extremely bright spot – but I think even she would start yawning before the end! I have, however, sent this to my daughter, her mother. She is a Greenie – whom I have tried to convert for years.

taxed
August 31, 2015 10:54 am

During the ice age they were big swings in temp that effected Greenland and the northern Atlantic.
These swings in temp happened often and were quite fast. Now l can’t understand how CO2 or ocean currents would have caused them. But l can understand how warmth in the Caribbean and the weather patterns over the northern Atlantic could. While still keeping North America and Europe locked in the ice age.

August 31, 2015 10:55 am

There is no evidence whatsoever that the millennial cycle or oscillation (900-1500 years) that appears in numerous proxy records is solar in origin. Gerard Bond suggested a solar origin in one of his papers but it looks he later changed his opinion, perhaps after talking to Leif.
If you are looking at the ≈1150 year cycle that appears in Late Holocene Greenland ice cores, Ole Humlum has an article that indicates that we could be about 150-200 years from the next peak warming. Of course these oscillations are not to be trusted to keep a schedule, so I wouldn’t go as far as to tell an attentive 8 years old that the peak was in 2003.
That millennial cycle is a big enigma. Perhaps is the Holocene cousin of the Dansgaard-Oescher events. The most intriguing theory I’ve read is for a Lunar origin for the 1470 D-O oscillation. Clearly there is a lot more that we don’t know about climate than we do know.

Reply to  Javier
August 31, 2015 11:15 am

I think that the most important point of the article and the one piece of evidence that you should get to your granddaughter is that according to the millennial cycle or oscillation that has been taking place in the Northern Hemisphere paleo records, from mid 19th century to mid 21st century, the world should have warmed, and it has warmed indeed. Therefore we cannot be responsible for all the warming. Evidence coming from the cooling phases of the 60 year oceanic cycle in 1945-1975 and 2005-on, indicate that we are probably responsible for less than half of the warming or those cooling phases would have had warming instead. This is a simple and short enough message and she can even draw the cycles so she sees it by herself. By the way this is what convinced me that AGW was not a solid theory as it did not take into account any climate periodicity from the past. So it should also work with an 8 years old.

Reply to  Javier
August 31, 2015 11:37 am

For those willing to see straws in the wind and explore possibilities. I would point out the Fairbridge and Sanders article
The Suns Orbit AD 750- 2050:Basis for New Perspectives on Planetary Dynamics and Earth Moon Linkage
pp446-471 in “Climate, History Periodicity and Predictability Rampino et al Eds Van Nostrand Reinhold 1987
also note 3 x Saturn/ Jupiter lap beat frequency (19.859) = 59.577 near enough 60
60 x 16 = 960
also USJL = 317.74. x3 = 953 .22
Other things (other planetary orbits) being never equal especially when translated into climate frequencies these are intruigingly suggestive.

Keith
August 31, 2015 10:55 am

Wonderful post. Of course lots of feathers will be ruffled by it.

John Whitman
August 31, 2015 11:05 am

Does a typical eight year old have sufficiently developed conceptual faculty and does he/she have a level of integrated concepts to understand the conceptual content of climate focused science (or quantum mechanics or genetic science or nuclear physics or etc, etc)?
I do not think so.
Instead of eight year old as the criteria for being able to simply explain one’s science to, rather, I think probably the criteria would be explain to a ~18 year old.
John

Patrick
Reply to  John Whitman
August 31, 2015 11:01 pm

I certainly did to the point I had to explain to the teacher and class what a CME was. That’ll teach me for doodling in class.

John Whitman
Reply to  John Whitman
September 1, 2015 7:22 am

Patrick on August 31, 2015 at 11:01 pm

Patrick,
Good on you.
Providing a learning environment for young children that allows for a natural interest in science is a good thing.
John

Patrick
Reply to  John Whitman
September 2, 2015 3:32 am

I was actually laughed at by my class “mates”.

Berényi Péter
August 31, 2015 11:16 am

Except there are no cycles, Dr. Page, so you are misleading poor little Ava. It’s chaotic fluctuations around a self organized critical state with 1/f spectrum (a.k.a. pink or flicker noise).
http://www.tursiops.cc/fm/pink.gif

Reply to  Berényi Péter
August 31, 2015 12:05 pm

I guess you didn’t read this bit “Ava – Lets think about when the temperature is warmer and colder outside. It is hotter when the sun shines during the day and colder at night when our part of the earth is turned away from the sun .You know already that it takes 24 hours for the earth to turn around once to make what we call a cycle from warm to cold and back again.
You also know that it is much hotter in summer than winter and that is because the sun shines longer and is higher in the sky in summer than in winter. Each year there is a cycle from warm to cold and back again which takes 365 days.Scientists have measured or estimated in various ways what the earth’s temperature was back for hundreds and thousands of years and can see that there are other hot – cold cycles. ”
For evidence for the 1000 and 60 year cycles see Fis 5 -9 and 15 at
http://climatesense-norpag.blogspot.com/2014/07/climate-forecasting-methods-and-cooling.html

VikingExplorer
Reply to  Berényi Péter
August 31, 2015 12:44 pm

Berényi, you are misleading poor Ava as well. Chaos mathematical ideas are not a substitute for the laws of physics. Your statement “there are no cycles” is pure BS. Chaotic behavior is an abstract attribute of almost ALL physical systems. Dr. Page may have simplified some things for Ava, and filled in the missing parts with a coherent story, but you have outright lied to her.

Granddaughter Ava
August 31, 2015 11:31 am

Grandpa: Have you been telling me fairy tales about climate change like you did about Santa Claus?
1) I think understand why the earth gets warmer when the sun is shining during the day and shining longer during the summer. Why does it get colder at night and during the winters? If CO2 or something else interfered with cooling, couldn’t that make it unbearably warm?
2) Why are there only three clear 1000-year cycles seen in Greenland in the past 11,000 years? These cycles aren’t exactly 1000 years long and the warming spikes aren’t very tall (only 1-2 degC). The last natural warm spell was only 1 degC warmer (Figure 5). My teacher has told us that CO2 could produce and average warming of 4 degC within 100 years with roughly TWICE as much warming in Greenland. Won’t that melt the Greenland Ice Cap and kill the polar bears even if 1-2 degC of warming every 1000 year is natural?
3) If the solar cycle is important to our climate, why can’t I see 11-year warming cycles in Figure 4 (UAH)?
4) How big is that 60-year cycle you mentioned? My teacher said it was only 0.25 degC.
5) I hear people saying that the stock market, weather and climate are chaotic. What does that mean? Last week, everyone on the news was talking about a repeat of the Great Recession. You told me I didn’t need to worry because there is no way to predict the future of the stock market using past patterns.

ECB
Reply to  Granddaughter Ava
September 1, 2015 5:18 am

“. My teacher has told us that CO2 could produce and average warming of 4 degC within 100 years”
Your teacher needs to study the “pause”. Clearly, no warming or 19 years all the while CO2 went up says that CO2 is not a driver of temperature, or at best, a tiny influence.

Granddaughter Ava
Reply to  Granddaughter Ava
September 1, 2015 2:05 pm

Dear Mr. Watts:
My grandfather, Dr. Page, does not understand that the rate at which energy escapes from the earth is as important as the rate at which is reaches the earth. He thinks three recent “1000-year cycles” of warming in a 11,000 year record constitutes a pattern that must continue into the future. The AMO (amplitude 0.25 degC) is trivial compared with projected warming for the coming century. The 11-year solar cycle has had negligible impact on temperature in the 20th century.
If an 8-year-old can recognized these problems and my grandfather ignores them, why do you host his material at your website.

Reply to  Granddaughter Ava
September 1, 2015 8:23 pm

The amplitude of the last 1000 year cycle in the NH was about 1.7 degrees C. See the moving average line od Fig 2.That is why it is the key periodicity. If you look at Fig 1 there are peaks at about 10000,9000,8000 7000,2000.1000 and the present.
as various beats go in and out of phase.

RACookPE1978
Editor
Reply to  Dr Norman Page
September 1, 2015 8:33 pm

Dr Norman Page
Now, the most serious question about the Modern Warming Cycle is very simple: Is today’s warming peak (2000 – 2010) the peak of the long-term cycle that has been increasing from its low point in 1650?
Or is today’s 2000-2010 merely the latest plateau in an ever-rising series of plateau’s and ramps towards the next 60-year high point in 2060-2070, then we begin the long decline into the Modern Ice Age of 2400-2500?
Or will the actual Modern Warming Period Maximum occur only after 2 more 60-year shirt cycles?
The 1000 – 1250 Medieval Warming Period was NOT a specific single one-year maximum! It was a spread out interval of generally warmer climates worldwide. If anything, it would be convenient to have a nice identifiable single “hot year” … But it did not happen then, nor will it happen the next time.

Granddaughter Ava
Reply to  Granddaughter Ava
September 2, 2015 1:54 am

Dr. Page: Thanks for the reply. I was looking at Figure 2 when I estimated the amplitude of the MWP to be about 1 degC, not 1.7 degC. The amplitude of the cycles in Greenland should be about twice as big due to polar amplification. Furthermore, most reconstructions show that the MWP was cooler than the Current Warm Period with most of the controversy revolving around the confidence interval. We have a good idea of the millennial temperature change at one location in Greenland and a much poorer idea of the change in GMST.
Unforced variability (AMO, ENSO, PDO, MWP/LIA), natural variability (solar), and aerosols are certainly big enough to complicate interpretation of 20th-century warming. How much warming was caused by GHG’s and how much was caused by other factors? However, if climate sensitivity is 3 degC or greater, these factors will be trivial compared with the warming from GHGs. (There are reasons to hope that climate sensitivity is 2 degC or lower, but it certainly isn’t anywhere near zero.)
Focusing on radiative warming and ignoring radiative cooling is an acceptable tactic for opportunistic politicians and ambulance-chasing lawyers. Steve Schneider thinks such one-sided tactics are appropriate for scientists who want to make the world a better place. I don’t.

Granddaughter Ava
Reply to  Granddaughter Ava
September 2, 2015 1:18 pm

Dr. Page: By ignoring the impact of rising CO2 and other GHGs on radiative cooling, you are implying that climate sensitivity is zero. Since you have a Ph.D., you should be capable of understanding the basics of the interaction between GHGs and radiation, particularly the Schwarzschild equation that is used in radiation transfer calculations. (See link below, if this equation is unfamiliar.) The absorption coefficients used in the Schwarzschild equation come from laboratory experiments (and are not tuned like parameters used in AOGCMs). Too many readers of WUWT don’t understand that both radiative forcing and unforced variability are real phenomena, because of post like this one.
http://barrettbellamyclimate.com/page47.htm

John F. Hultquist
August 31, 2015 12:41 pm

Dear Ava,
You have watched the horses in the pasture whirl and run to the far fence when they are startled by a load noise or piece of paper blowing in the wind. Neither of these things will harm them. Still they run.
People are doing this sort of thing. Someone notices a big storm or a high temperature. They panic, run in circles, and make a lot of noise. No harm comes about and they seem foolish. They don’t like looking foolish and so they make up scary stories, saying: Just you wait.
Eva, Earth is a big thing with lots going on. There are big snows, hot temperatures, huge waves, large storms. It is wrong to say nothing bad will ever happen – it will. It is also wrong to say Earth is about to burn up or other such nonsense.
Now, about that ice cream. [ref; rovingbroker @9:40]

John F. Hultquist
Reply to  John F. Hultquist
August 31, 2015 12:44 pm

loud

Gary Pearse
Reply to  John F. Hultquist
September 1, 2015 10:47 am

Yes, that’s what is missing in Dr. Paige’s heart to heart with his granddaughter. I like that you take away the irrational fear. Were I an eight year old looking at all the graphs and elliptical logic, I would say gee thanks gramps, but is anything bad going to happen?

Anders Valland
Reply to  John F. Hultquist
September 1, 2015 2:33 am

+1! To the point, easy to understand and above all – short enough to keep the 8-year old attentive.

August 31, 2015 12:43 pm

Ava: Question reality.

Gary Pearse
Reply to  verdeviewer
September 1, 2015 10:48 am

Question what others say is reality.

Richard M
August 31, 2015 1:04 pm

One of the theories as to the driver of the millennial cycle is ocean currents. The melt water pulses at the end of an ice age creates variability in the MOC by having different density water across the planet. When the current moves faster the planet cools, when the current moves slower the planet warms.
No need for any solar driver. The planet does it all by itself.

August 31, 2015 1:11 pm

Instead of teaching them dubious counter-CAGW explanations on solar influence and historical temperatures that have humongous error bars, teach your child to deal with ambiguity. The world doesn’t care one whit about our binary true/false arguments. There’s no solid evidence to support either side of the CAGW argument. What I teach my kids is is “we don’t know, but the warmists are looking more wrong every year and that means we shouldn’t take expensive drastic action’.
You can also teach them decision theory and show why spending trillions on dubious energy technologies hurts the poor while not helping with C02 very much. This is why I don’t really buy into the best CAGW argument I’ve seen yet – Taleb’s catastrophe theory. The problem is the current attempts to alleviate a potential sudden change in the climate will cause catastrophic changes in the economy (aka the cure is worse than the disease), and economic meddling has very strong historical evidence of causing wars, famine, poverty, disease, etc.
See, you only need decision theory and Popper’s scientific method, both of which are actual core topics in epistemology. You don’t need dubious fancy graphs and theories that an 8 year old wouldn’t understand anyways.
Peter

Dawtgtomis
August 31, 2015 1:38 pm

Dr. Page, thanks (if you’re still watching). Wouldn’t it be wonderful if the generation in school now could be focusing on the real pollution problems that face society instead of this “detour” of ecology into political and religious subversion.
I remember getting up at 2AM to get samples of illegal nighttime batch dumping by a local industry as a high school “field biology” student circa 1970. We got it stopped and monitored by the (then beneficial) EPA.
Hopefully, they will be enlightened enough to take CO2 off the list of polluting substances.

Dawtgtomis
Reply to  Dawtgtomis
August 31, 2015 2:15 pm

You might enjoy this poem:
Mother Goose on Climate Prediction
As record winds blow
Unprecedented snow,
Oh, where is our globe a’ warming?
That depends on the sun
and the ways oceans run,
Plus clouds (with complexity) forming!
Now, for quite long,
the models are wrong.
So, what caused the pause in the warming?
Yes, look to the sun,
the ways oceans run,
and the clouds, in complexity forming.
CO2 is “too small”
to stop temperature’s fall
when the sun and the oceans together,
Begin to cause cold
like cycles of old…
Which no one alive can remember!
So if I do some harm
by just keeping warm,
You’ll have to kindly forgive me!
I find my solution
is carbon pollution…
Or this world will quite quickly outlive me!

Alan McIntire
August 31, 2015 2:23 pm

The header reminded me of a Feynman quote. In the forward to “Feynman’s Lost Lecture-The Motion of Planets around the Sun”, David Goodstein mentioned how he asked fellow Caltech faculty member Richard Feynman to explain why spin one-half particles obey Fermi Dirac statistics. Rising to the challenge, he said, “I’ll prepare a freshman lecture on it.” But a few days later he told Goodstein, “I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t reduce it to the freshman level. That means we really don’t understand it.”

August 31, 2015 2:31 pm

Post hoc explanations for phenomenon such as a thousand year cycle with no obvious mechanism are unconvincing in my mind. Its bad enough when the driver needs to be enhanced such as the case for CO2 and it’s assumed positive feedbacks far greater than the original effect. Climate science is full of them already.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
August 31, 2015 3:17 pm

I’m saying that the 1000 year cycle exists in the temperature data. As to its origin in the sun I am my suitably humble self as to the processes involved I say at
http://climatesense-norpag.blogspot.com/2014/07/climate-forecasting-methods-and-cooling.html
“NOTE!! The connection between solar “activity” and climate is poorly understood and highly controversial. Solar “activity” encompasses changes in solar magnetic field strength, IMF, CRF, TSI, EUV, solar wind density and velocity, CMEs, proton events etc. The idea of using the neutron count and the 10Be record as the most useful proxy for changing solar activity and temperature forecasting is agnostic as to the physical mechanisms involved.
Having said that, however, it is reasonable to suggest that the three main solar activity related climate drivers are:
a) the changing GCR flux – via the changes in cloud cover and natural aerosols (optical depth)
b) the changing EUV radiation – top down effects via the Ozone layer
c) the changing TSI – especially on millennial and centennial scales.
The effect on climate of the combination of these solar drivers will vary non-linearly depending on the particular phases of the eccentricity, obliquity and precession orbital cycles at any particular time.
Of particular interest is whether the perihelion of the precession falls in the northern or southern summer at times of higher or lower obliquity.”

August 31, 2015 3:46 pm

Guest essay by Dr. Norman Page
1. Introduction
Dr. Leif Svalgaard said in a comment on a WUWT post:
August 17, 2015 at 2:27 pm
“If you cannot explain your finding to an [attentive] eight-year old, you don’t understand it yourself.”
I agree entirely.
Miriam – Webster defines Epistemology as
” the study or a theory of the nature and grounds of knowledge especially with reference to its limits and validity “

A perhaps minor disagreement.
For an adult to communicate anything to a child can involve a skill set outside the ability to arrive at what it is desired to communicate.
But the ability to K.I.S.S., yeah, that I can agree with. The more convoluted the explanation of a conclusion gets, the more likely there is something wrong with the conclusion.
(PS “K.I.S.S.” = “Keep It Simple, Stupid”.)

August 31, 2015 3:57 pm

That’s not what you said to your eight year old. Still I appreciate you at least trying to keep things simple. Keep trying. You will get better at it with practice. The original quote is about a six year old by the way, so there is still lots of room for improvement!

August 31, 2015 4:09 pm

You say “Most people living before about 1850 grew their own food. Before then, if just a few extra- cold years followed one after the other, millions of people starved to death because their harvests failed.”
I would add: and this is during a time when there were only a billion people in the world: we have seven times that number alive today.

sturgishooper
Reply to  dwisehart
August 31, 2015 5:32 pm

And about a billion of them can be supported today because of the beneficial increase in plant food, ie CO2, from three molecules per 10,000 dry air molecules to four over the past 160 years.

Gary Pearse
Reply to  dwisehart
September 1, 2015 10:54 am

And doing better than ever before.

Glenn999
August 31, 2015 4:49 pm

Not all eight year olds are built the same. Perhaps some of the folks here just have normal kids.

johann wundersamer
August 31, 2015 5:27 pm

The Epistemology of Explaining Climate Forecasting so an 8 Year Old Can Understand it
Guest essay by Dr. Norman Page
____
So You Really Thought You Might Like To
_____
sell such epistomology to an 8 year old without her grapping the iphone and stare at a point disclosing You.
Nice.
Hans

David
August 31, 2015 8:34 pm

1. Our oldest, at 8yrs, would have understood this.
2. Why does everyone ignore the variable of the internal heat sources of the earth?
3. The science has been so badly corrupted on the AGW side that they’ve no high ground to call-out others.
4. Thanks for sharing this though-provoking piece of work – it inspires a conversation and a desire for exploration versus the brainwashing & bullying common to the self-promoting self-enriching anti-free speech power-lust that dominates the AGW side.

August 31, 2015 11:32 pm

[snip – insulting rant, if you have an issue with the article, name it specifically rather than just implying the author and website are stupid. -mod]

ren
August 31, 2015 11:44 pm

The following graphic shows how the strength of the polar vortex (wind) affects the ice extent in the Arctic. You can see how quickly the wind can change ice extent. The strength of the polar vortex and wind strength decreases when the solar wind weakens. This has a huge impact on the climate, because changing albedo, the jet stream meanders, reduces evaporation over the oceans. This will cause a gradual cooling of the oceans and extreme temperatures in summer and winter, due to the decrease in water vapor over continents.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/antarctic.sea.ice.interactive.html

ulriclyons
September 1, 2015 2:02 am

60 and 1000 year cycles:
It’s close to 69yrs, that happens four times in a row, with an additional 41.5yr period, to complete the 317.7yr Jovian cycle that is driving it. Which is what Desmond King-Hele was looking at while working in my father’s team at Guided Weapons in the 1960’s.
There is no 1000yr cycle, stadial like cold periods through the Holocene such as the LIA, Dark Ages, and previous clusters of deeper-longer solar minima occur on average around every 820yrs, but with intervals varying from around 400yrs to 1200yrs. The next one is through the following 250 years, with a deep protracted solar minimum starting in the 2090’s, and another from around 2200.

Anders Valland
September 1, 2015 2:29 am

It would take an exceptionally attentive 8-year old to stay focused through all this.
Simpler, please.

ren
September 1, 2015 3:37 am

Dr. Norman Page is a scientist whose conclusions confirm the observations. What has happened since 1997 that the temperature trend stopped growing? Is when AMO is a drop in the temperature will rise?
http://woodfortrees.org/graph/esrl-amo/from:1997/plot/rss/from:1997/plot/none

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