Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
OK, quick gambler’s question. Suppose I flip seven coins in the air at once and they all seven come up heads. Are the coins loaded?
Near as I can tell, statistics was invented by gamblers to answer this type of question. The seven coins are independent events. If they are not loaded the chances of a heads is fifty percent. The odds of seven heads is the product of the individual odds, or one-half to the seventh power. This is 1/128, less than 1%, less than one chance in a hundred that this is just a random result. Possible but not very likely. As a man who is not averse to a wager, I’d say it’s a pretty good bet the coins were loaded.
However, suppose we take the same seven coins, and we flip all seven of them not once, but ten times. Now what are our odds that seven heads show up in one of those ten flips?
Well, without running any numbers we can immediately see that the more seven-coin-flip trials we have, the better the chances are that seven heads will show up. I append the calculations below, but for the present just note that if we do the seven-coin-flip as few as ten times, the odds of finding seven heads by pure chance go up from less than 1% (a statistically significant result at the 99% significance level) to 7.5% (not statistically unusual in the slightest).
So in short, the more places you look, the more likely you are to find rarities, and thus the less significant they become. The practical effect of this is that you need to adjust your significance level for the number of trials. If the significance level is 95%, as is common in climate science, then if you look at 5 trials, to have a demonstrably unusual result you need to find something significant at the 99% level. Here’s a quick table that relates number of trials to significance level, if you are looking for the equivalent of a single-trial significance level of 95%:
Trials, Required Significance Level 1, 95.0% 2, 97.5% 3, 98.3% 4, 98.7% 5, 99.0% 6, 99.1% 7, 99.3% 8, 99.4%
Now, with that as prologue, following my interest in things albedic I went to examine the following study entitled Spring–summer albedo variations of Antarctic sea ice from 1982 to 2009 :
ABSTRACT: This study examined the spring–summer (November, December, January and February) albedo averages and trends using a dataset consisting of 28 years of homogenized satellite data for the entire Antarctic sea ice region and for five longitudinal sectors around Antarctica: the Weddell Sea (WS), the Indian Ocean sector (IO), the Pacific Ocean sector (PO), the Ross Sea (RS) and the Bellingshausen– Amundsen Sea (BS).
Remember, the more places you look, the more likely you are to find rarities … so how many places are they looking?
Well, to start with, they’ve obviously split the dataset into five parts. So that’s five places they’re looking. Already, to claim 95% significance we need to find 99% significance.
However, they are also only looking at a part of the year. How much of the year? Well, most of the ice is north of 70°S, so it will get measurable sun eight months or so out of the year. That means they’re using half the yearly albedo data. The four months they picked are the four when the sun is highest, so it makes sense … but still, they are discarding data, and that affects the number of trials.
In any case, even if we completely set aside the question of how much the year has been subdivided, we know that the map itself is subdivided into five parts. That means that to be significant at 95%, you need to find one of them that is significant at 99%.
However, in fact they did find that the albedo in one of the five ice areas (the Pacific Ocean sector) has a trend that is significant at the 99% level, and another (the Bellingshausen-Amundsen sector) is significant at the 95% level. And these would be interesting and valuable findings … except for another problem. This is the issue of autocorrelation.
“Autocorrelation” is how similar the present is to the past. If the temperature can be -40°C one day and 30°C the next day, that would indicate very little autocorrelation. But if (as is usually the case) a -40°C day is likely to be followed by another very cold day, that would mean a lot of autocorrelation. And climate variables in general tend to be autocorrelated, often highly so.
Now, one oddity of autocorrelated datasets is that they tend to be “trendy”. You are more likely to find a trend in autocorrelated datasets than in perfectly random datasets. In fact there was an article in the journals not long ago entitled Nature’s Style: Naturally Trendy . (I said “not long ago” but when I looked it was 2005 … carpe diem indeed.) It seems many people understood that concept of natural trendiness, the paper was widely discussed at the time.
What seems to have been less well understood is the following corollary:
Since nature is naturally trendy, finding a trend in observational datasets is less significant than it seems.
In this case, I digitized the trends. While I found their two “significant” trends in the Bellingshausen–Amundsen Sea (BS) at 95% and the Pacific Ocean sector (PO) at 99% were as advertised and they matched my calculations, unfortunately I also found that as I suspected, they had indeed ignored autocorrelation.
Part of the reason that the autocorrelation is so important in this particular case is that we’re only starting with 27 annual data points. As a result, we’re starting with large uncertainties due to small sample size. The effect of autocorrelation is to reduce that already inadequate sample size, so the effective N is quite small. The effective N for the Bellingshausen–Amundsen Sea sector (BS) is 19, and the effective N for the Pacific Ocean sector (PO) is only 8. Once autocorrelation is taken into account both of the trends were not statistically significant at all, as both were down around the 90% significance level.
Adding in the effects of autocorrelation with the effect of repeated trials means that in fact, not one of their reported trends in “spring-summer albedo variations” is statistically significant, nor even near to being significant.
Conclusions? Well, I’d have to say that in climate science we’ve got to up our statistical game. I’m no expert statistician, far from it. For that you want someone like Matt Briggs, Statistician to the Stars. In fact, I’ve never taken even one statistics class ever. I’m totally self-taught.
So if I know a bit about the effects of subdividing a dataset on significance levels, and the effects of autocorrelation on trends, how come these guys don’t? Be clear I don’t think they’re doing it on purpose. I think that this was just an honest mistake on their part, they simply didn’t realize the effect of their actions. But dang, seeing climate scientists making these same two mistakes over and over and over is getting boring.
To close on a much more positive note, I read that Science magazine is setting up a panel of statisticians to read the submissions in order to “help avoid honest mistakes and raise the standards for data analysis”.
Can’t say fairer than that.
In any case, the sun has just come out after a foggy, overcast morning. Here’s what my front yard looks like today …
The redwood tree is native here, the nopal cactus not so much … I wish just such sunny skies for you all.
Except those needing rain, of course …
w.
AS ALWAYS: If you disagree with something I or someone else said, please quote their exact words that you disagree with. That way we can all understand the exact nature of what you find objectionable.
REPEATED TRIALS: The actual calculation of how much better the odds are with repeated trials is done by taking advantage of the fact that if the odds of something happening are X, say 1/128 in the case of flipping seven heads, the odds of it NOT happening are 1-X, which is 1 – 1/128, or 127/128. It turns out that the odds of it NOT happening in N trials is
(1-X)N
or (127/128)N. For N = 10 flips of seven coins, this gives the odds of NOT getting seven heads as (127/128)10, or 92.5%. This means that the odds of finding seven heads in ten flips is one minus the odds of it not happening, or about 7.5%.
Similarly. if we are looking for the equivalent of a 95% confidence in repeated trials, the required confidence level in N repeated trials is
0.951/N
AUTOCORRELATION AND TRENDS: I usually use the method of Nychka which utilizes an “effective N”, a reduced number of degrees of freedom for calculating statistical significance.
where n is the number of data points, r is the lag-1 autocorrelation, and neff is the effective n.
However, if it were mission-critical, rather than using Nychka’s heuristic method I’d likely use a Monte Carlo method. I’d generate say 100,000 instances of ARMA model (auto-regressive moving-average model) pseudo-data which matched well with the statistics of the actual data, and I’d investigate the distribution of trends in that dataset.
[UPDATE] I found a better way to calculate effective N. See below.
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Many also forget that there are many other types of error that are not covered by the confidence intervals quoted such as precision of measurement instruments, siting bias in surface temps, and so on.
Willis, is there a typo?
Text states “For N = 10 flips of seven coins, this gives the odds of NOT getting seven heads as (127/128)10, or 92.5%. This means that the odds of finding seven heads in twenty flips is one minus the odds of it not happening, or about 7.5%.”
Should “twenty” be “ten”?
Thank, Taphonomic, fixed.
w.
It’s “averse”, not “adverse”. Wanna bet?
I’d bet you are right, so I fixed my error.
Thanks,
w.
Q: I flip seven coins in the air at once and they all seven come up heads. Are the coins loaded?
A: Probably. Forget the math – it’s because why would you do a crazy thing like that if something funny wasn’t going on?
I’m pretty sure that a competent magician could rig coin flips with apparently normal coins, so I need to see it independently repeated, before I pay any heed. Likewise any scientific experiment where anything significant hangs on the result.
Thanks, Pete. You point out the usual scientific method for avoiding the kinds of errors under discussion—replication of the results. Unfortunately, while we can flip seven coins as many times as we want, we only have one Antarctica …
It’s worth noting that independent replication of the coin experiment would be to flip the same seven coins again. If they come up all heads a second time, replicating the initial findings, I think anyone would agree that the coins are loaded.
However, this is because people intuitively understand the math. In the case of the seven coins, the odds of it happening twice are the product of the individual odds, or (1/128) * (1/128). That’s odds of one in 16,384.
w.
Several bloggers in this thread seem to be under the misapprehension that probability and statistics can be applied to global warming climatology as this field of study is presently constituted. Probability and statistics cannot currently be applied for a necessary ingredient is missing. It is for the functional equivalent of a coin flip to be identified for global warming climatology. The counts that are called “frequencies” cannot be made lieu of identification of this functional equivalent. Thus, there are no relative frequencies, probabilities or probability values. There are no truth-values. The architects of global warming climatology have disconnected it from logic!
Probability and statistics are essential to any scientific study that deals with measuring any aspect of nature. When one measures such things as mass, length, charge, velocity, etc, there are limits to the precision of the measuring device, which can only be derived and understood using probability and stat.
Repeated measurements that constitute a time series become the input to a pattern recognition process. Probability and statistics tell you that the more samples you take, the closer your estimate of the mean is. Not only can probability and stat be applied to climatology, they are essential to ANY study of it.
Probability and statistics cannot be applied to global warming climatology unless the events are identified. I claim they are not yet identified. Do you disagree?
The very definition of climate, namely average temperature, wind speed, wind direction, humidity and precipitation are based on doing a statistical operation on the set of these measurements. Average …..also known in the world of statistics as “expected value,” or the first moment of a random variable.
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So, yes, I disagree with you, as all of my mentioned measurements of climate are defined “events”
Probability and statistics tell you that the more samples you take, the closer your estimate of the mean is.
No. This is based on certain assumptions about the random process. The statistical term for this is ergodicity. There are certain processes that are non-ergodic. The most egregious error in applying statistics to climate “science” is confidence limits. Typically temperatures, or temperature changes, are not independent and identically distributed.so the hypothesis required to invoke the central limit theorem do not apply. You need to know a distribution to deduce confidence limits.
Walt D says: “No. This is based on certain assumptions about the random process”
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Have you ever seen the definition of “Standard Error?”
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https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTC_Mv-Zuk2gndYqSNQeIDqTRnF24MQUoxxOwVFlLBm-ZyehMv0cA
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No assumption of ergodicity involved.
Have you ever seen the definition of “Standard Error?”
This does not work if you are dealing with a distribution where either the mean or the variance are not defined.,For example Cauchy Distribution.
Walt, if the variance is undefined, then the “s” term in the equation is undefined.
Terry, you’ve made this claim a number of times and I’ve never understood it. As near as I can understand it, you think that statistics can only be applied to what you call “events”, and there are no “events” in climatology.
Suppose that I measure the temperature of a 10-cm cube of metal that sits outdoors. I measure its temperature every day at 3:00 in the afternoon.
If I average these measurements, will I get the average 3 PM temperature of the metal cube for the period of the measurements?
You seem to be saying that there is no such thing as an average temperature of the cube, because it doesn’t undergo any “events”.
I say that the measurement itself is an “event”, and that if we measure it ten times at 3:00, we can take the average and it will give us meaningful information about the temperature of the block at 3 PM..
What am I missing?
w.
Willis:
I’m not saying that “there no such thing as an average temperature of the cube, because it doesn’t undergo any ‘events’.” “Event” is a concept of probability theory. In particular, a probability is the measure of an event. Thus, for example, the event of ‘heads” has a probability.
There is a mathematical theory of “measure” that describes some of the properties of a probability. This theory is worthy of study if you wish to attain a command of probability and statistics.
The concept called a “unit event” sits on the theoretical side of science. The concept called a “sampling unit” sits on the empirical side. An axiom of probability theory states that the value of the probability of a unit event is 1. In order for this axiom to be empirically satisfied, corresponding to every unit event must be 1 sampling unit. Thus, the relation between unit events and sampling units is one-to-one.
Its complete set of sampling units is called the “population” of a study. A “sample” is comprised of sampling units that are drawn from a study’s population. If one draws a sample and observes the outcome in each element of this sample one can count the sampling units that correspond to each of the possible outcomes of the corresponding events. These counts are called “frequencies.” The heights of the vertical bars of a histogram are proportional to the frequencies of the various possible outcomes.
I’m not presently able to count the sampling units corresponding to the observed outcomes of the events for the study that is underway in global warming climatology because after eight years of looking for a description of them I have not yet found one. AR4 describes no unit events or sampling units. AR5 describes unit events and sampling units that are not a part of global warming climatology. If you know of a description of the unit events or sampling units of global warming climatology that is provided by an authoritative world body such as the WMO please clue me in. In the meantime, I’ll believe that global warming climatologists have committed the worst possible blunder in the design of a study: for no population to underlie the theory that is a product of this study.
I don’t know what you are missing. You might try to construct a histogram from a global temperature time series of your choice. If you try to do so you’ll find that the things that you need to count in assigning heights to the various bars of your histogram, the sampling units, have yet to be identified.
So Terry, if I called you on the phone tomorrow at 3:00 pm, and asked you what the temperature at you home was, how would you respond? (Let’s assume you have a thermometer hanging outside one of your windows)
Joel D. Jackson:
If I had my wits about me, I’d answer politely that that your request was of the form of an equivocation, there being many different temperatures at my home. I’d point out that if I were to answer your question I would do so by drawing a conclusion from an equivocation and that to do so would be logically illicit.
@terry Oldberg
you say (above) “… there are no relative frequencies, probabilities or probability values. There are no truth-values. The architects of global warming climatology have disconnected it from logic!”
Are you saying that the population distribution of a variable, say T, is not known and therefore “samples” from such an unknown distribution do NOT regress to the mean; that we are not entitled to perform these sorts of statistics because we don’t know the nature of the distribution???
Trying to comprehend your comments as well.
Bubba Cow:
No. I am saying that the value of ‘T’ is not a description of an event in the control of the climate. A univariate model such as this one supplies a policy maker with no information about the outcomes from his/her policy decisions making control of the climate impossible. Given that the model is multivariate a degree of control is a possibility provided that the mutual information of the model is not nil. Try to control to the climate when the mutual information is nil would be like trying to control your car with the steering wheel disconnected from the front wheels.
Let’s try it again…
So Terry, if I called you on the phone tomorrow at 3:00 pm, and asked you what the reading on your outside thermometer is, how would you respond?
Joel D. Jackson
I’d give you the reading.
“I am saying that the value of ‘T’ is not a description of an event in the control of the climate.”
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Classic “straw man” argument.
Nobody in this thread is talking about controlling the climate.
You’ve concluded that my argument is a “strawman argument” by using the the false claim that “Nobody in this thread is talking about controlling the climate” as the premise to an argument. The transcript, however, reveals that I am talking about it.
Terry says, “I’d give you the reading.”
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Thank you. Now I’d take the reading, go to the histogram for the particular date, time and location, and add 1 to the bar directly over the number you provided.
Joel D. Jackson:
Recall that a temperature value is a real number and that in any finite interval the count of real numbers is infinite. Thus, if you were to add 1 to the count for a particular temperature it is extremely unlikely that the count would ever rise above 1. Also, for the vast majority of values, the count would never rise above 0. When you are through with your experiment, the frequency values of your histogram will be almost entirely 0s with a few 1s.
Your argument remains a “strawman”
Terry, I understand that temperature is a real number. However, I doubt that the thermometer hanging outside of your window would provide a precision greater than an integer value over the range of -100 to 150 degrees Fahrenheit. Of course I may be wrong, and you might have a super duper digital precision laboratory class thermometer that gives two digits of significance after the decimal point, but then, in that case the number of readings you can get from it is not infinite, but finite. Lets say it has five digits in the display with two digits after the decimal point and a +/- sign. The range would be +150.00 to -100.00 Fahrenheit. This only gives you 25,000 possible readings, not even close to “infinite”
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PS please see my other post regarding continuous random variables.
Joel:
In our conversation we are currently in a box created by your insistence that a global temperature value is a suitable candidate for use as the outcome of an event. We can carry your idea forward while dealing with the reality of observational error by specifying that the global temperature value is not the true value but rather is the measured value. The resulting histogram is identical to the one for the true value thus sharing all of the shortcomings of this histogram that I identified for you previously. In particular the dearth of sampling units associated with each outcome causes a complete loss of statistical significance.
If you are willing we can escape from this box by abstracting (removing) our description of the global temperature from selected details. we replace the proposition that the global temperature has a particular value (which is a real number) by the proposition that the global temperature has a value that lies within a specified range of values. Reduced to logical terms, this idea can be expressed by the proposition that the global temperature is
T1 OR T2 OR…OR Tn
where T1, T2…TN are alternate values for the global temperature and OR designates the logical operator of the same name. T1 OR T2 OR…OR Tn can be described as an “abstracted state” for it provides a description of the global temperature that is abstracted (removed) from the fine detail. The “macro-state” of statistical thermodynamics is defined similarly and for the same reason.
To make fruitful use of the idea of an abstracted state was achieved recently by Willis Eshenbach in creating his histogram from data in a global temperature time series. Through use of abstracted states the builder of a histogram increases the count of the sampling units that are associated with each vertical bar thus increasing the statistical significance of conclusions that are drawn from the empirical data.
I think that the futility of using “climate science”,and using the predictions or projections that it makes to guide economic policy, is hinged on the belief by some that the climate can somehow be thus controlled.
My observation is that the futility of this is obvious to most skeptics but not most warmistas, and is indeed the subject of much heated discussion in the universe of climate blogging and elsewhere.
For if there is no belief that these policy decisions can or will alter the trajectory of the climate systems of the Earth, then why implement them?
From there the discussions go off in many directions, such as what temperature should policy makers be aiming for, whether they really believe any of this or if it is all just a power and money grab, etc.
Controlling climate, or taking our hands off of the steering wheel and accelerator/brake pedals to let nature take it’s random course, is the central theme of climate alarmism, whether explicitly stated or not.
The concept of uncertainty is similarly central to many articles, and the ensuing conversations and criticisms of them.
Menicholas:
It is conceivable that a degree of control over the climate could be achieved. This is possibility if and only if a model were to provide us with information about the outcomes of events in the period before these outcomes become observable. In a stupendous blunder, global warming climatologists have spent 200 billion US$ and 20 years on a line of research that provide us with no such information. They have aggravated their offense by convincing politicians that today’s climate models already allow governments to control the climate when this is demonstrably untrue.
I am more or less agnostic on the question of whether or not humans may ever exert any degree of influence over the temperature and rainfall trends of the entire globe.
Clearly some influence is achieved already. With changes in land use, installation of surface paving, and cloud seeding, things are not as they otherwise would have been.
I am fairly certain that the weather patterns over the state of Florida have been altered. Large portions of the state that were formerly swamp and marshlands have been drained and converted to other landforms…from cities, to orange groves and pastures, and in general less saturated conditions. Since much of the rain that falls during certain times of years originates as moisture that was evaporated from the land surface, having less saturated conditions has almost surely led to decreased rainfall, or at least altered patterns. (For evidence of this I point to periods of severe drought, when lack of soil moisture begets more drought. During these times, weather fronts can be seen to simply collapse upon crossing the coastline, time after time, for months on end. Other evidence exists that is more rigorous.)
****Asterisk alert**** Another form of control that I suspect may be being used, but have no hard evidence or even any strong conviction, is in disruption of tropical systems as they approach the state. Papers have been written describing or proposing dumping various chemicals or substances (such as hydrogel) into carefully chosen sectors or areas of such systems as they approach land, but there never seems to be any follow up. I suspect if such was being done, it would have to be kept secret for numerous reasons. A storm diverted from one area hits somewhere else, and the somewhere else residents and governments sue, or people sue because not enough was done to prevent damage, or else people just scream and moan because they hate it when governments do stuff like this. Some may simply object because the consequences of such efforts, whether successful, unsuccessful, or partially so, are almost surely poorly understood.
Not a tin foil hat wearer, I am just wondering to myself if such a thing were attempted, would it be revealed? Almost surely not.
Note since the disastrous years of 2004-2005, not a single major hurricane has made landfall as such. We have seen them appear to become ragged, lose strength, develop dry sectors, etc, as they approached. No evidence, no reason to think so, except that the idea to disrupt storms with hydrogel makes sense and we have not heard of it tried, so maybe they do try it and just say nothing.
[If I disappear mysteriously in the near future, or suffer an untimely accident…forget you read this 😉 ] ****End alert****
But the question which is relevant to CAGW is whether regulating fossil fuels in an attempt to prevent or limit further CO2 rise is a worthy goal, or a misguided folly, or somewhere in between.
My best guess is that, between the natural variability of the climate, the uncertainty of how much effect CO2 really has, the difficulty in achieving worldwide compliance (to say nothing of the cost…separate issue), and the highly dubious nature of the proposition that a warmer earth, and an atmosphere with more CO2, is even a thing to be feared, rather than welcomed…between all of these there is zero chance of control, even if we do have an influence. I think any efforts on the part of people to steer the climate in a particular direction have as much chance of succeeding as a troop of drunk monkeys have of piloting a plane to a particular destination, which sitting in a cockpit with the windows painted black and beating on the controls with whiffle bats.
Success being defined as general agreement the world over that things were made substantially better by any efforts and the subsequent changes made to the climate regimes.
A measurement of a temperature is an “event” or a “coin flip” – except that a coin flip is not supposed to influence the next flip of the same coin, but today’s temperature definitely influences tomorrow’s temperature. So we expect a high degree of autocorrelation in most meteorological or climate data.
A measurement of a global temperature is a kind of event but it is the wrong kind of event for the controllability of the climate. My argument is contained in my recent response to Mr. Jackson.
Global temperature is not an “event”
It is an operationally defined calculation based on thousands of measurements separated by space and time.
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I also think that nobody on this blog would consider that it is possible to “control” the climate.
Joel D. Jackson:
You are right in stating that the “global temperature is not an ‘event’.” A value for the global temperature is, however, one of the possible outcomes of a kind of event.
Joel D. Jackson
With reference to the global temperature, the existence of an average implies the existence of a global temperature time series. It does not imply the existence of a description of the unit events or sampling units of a study.
As you implicitly point out, global temperature values could be the elements of a study’s sample space. However, for controllability of the climate, the outcome probabilities must be conditional upon accessible states reached before the outcome of the associated event becomes observable. Thus, in addition to a sample space there must be the set of accessible states, the “conditions” as they are often called. The right kind of event for controllability is described by a pairing of a condition with an outcome.
By climatological tradition, outcomes are averaged over 30 years. The global temperature record then supplies between 5 and 6 independent events going back to the beginning of this record in 1850. On the assumption that there are two possible outcomes in the sample space, independent events are too few for the statistical significance of conclusions from a study by a factor of about 30. Define the outcomes as global temperatures and one reduces the average number of independent events per element of the sample space to nil.
“However, for controllability of the climate”
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You lost me with that. I don’t think “control” of the climate is an issue here.
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Secondly, “On the assumption that there are two possible outcomes in the sample space” is an invalid assumption. Thermometers have more than two readings.
Joel D. Jackson:
I am a critic of methodology. Control of the climate is an issue regarding the methodology of global warming research. That the climate remains uncontrollable after the expenditure of 200 billion dollars on research devoted to establishment of control over the climate and that policy makers continue to try to control the climate though control is impossible indicates that something is seriously amiss with this methodology.
Joel D. Jackson:
As the value of a temperature is a real number, a temperature has an infinite number of values. Given a sample of finite size, for the vast majority of these values, the sample size is nil. Thus, for statistical significance it is necessary to aggregate values via a description that is “coarse grained.” In the coarsest grained of descriptions that is compatible with control of the climate, the sample space contains two possible outcomes. This, however, produces far too few independent events for statistical significance given that the averaging period for the outcomes is 30 years.
“Control of the climate is an issue regarding the methodology of global warming research.”
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OK…..so for example can you tell me how drilling ice cores in glacial ice is going to control the climate.???
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How do ARGO buoy’s control the climate?
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How do orbiting satellites measuring microwave brightness…”control the climate?
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I do believe you have a serious problem understanding what “scientific research” is, as opposed to using the results of said scientific research for making political policy decisions.
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No matter which side of the debate you are on, skeptic or not, neither side advocates “controlling” the climate.
Joel D. Jackson:
To the contrary, the EPA is among the many agencies of government who are attempting to control of the climate through curbs on CO2 emissions.
Terry says: ” Given a sample of finite size, for the vast majority of these values, the sample size is nil..” </b
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I can't understand how a sample of fine size can be nil …..Do you mean that if my sample size is 10 then it is nil?
Joel D. Jackson:
Given that the elements of the sample space are the values of T, the number of values in this sample space is infinite. The number of observed values is finite. Thus, the number of observed values divided by the number of values in the sample space averages nil. It follows that for the vast majority of the values in the sample space, the number of observed values is necessarily nil. For example, if the proposition is that T = 15.26…(to an infinite number of decimal places) the probability value is very close to 1 that no event having this outcome has been observed.
(my typing stinks today)
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Terry says: ” Given a sample of finite size, for the vast majority of these values, the sample size is nil..”
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I can’t understand how a sample of finite size can be nil …..Do you mean that if my sample size is 10 then it is nil?
Terry:
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RE: ” the EPA is among the many agencies ”
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You continually use the wrong word. Try using “influence” instead of “control”
Terry says: “the number of observed values divided by the number of values in the sample space ” which of course any statistician will tell you has no meaning.
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Terry says: “averages nil” wrong again, the limit as x approaches infinity of 1/x is zero. It is not a “average” it is exactly equal to zero
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Terry now says, “It follows that for the vast majority of the values in the sample space, the number of observed values is necessarily nil.” ……this is the most illogical deduction going. If the sample space is five, it is not necessarily nil. In fact it never is nil, it is five.
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Your problem with the proposition of ” T = 15.26 ” is that you never make one like that in the case of a non-discrete random variable. Probability statements in the continuous case are over an interval, not specific values. Try reading this for a refresher on how probability deals with random variables that are continuous (non-discrete) https://onlinecourses.science.psu.edu/stat414/node/88
Regarding continuous random variables, in building a model using this concept the builder claims to know the functional form of a parameterized probability density function. He assigns a value to each parameter, usually through the use of maximum likelihood estimation. MLE is an intuitive rule of thumb aka heuristic one of whose traits is to fabricate information.
The catch is that God does not send to scientists the specifications for parameterized probability density functions. They are fabricated, often by the unwarranted claim that the data are normally distributed. In the creation of a PDF, information is fabricated. People suffer, die and lose their fortunes when scientists fabricate information. For them to do so is unethical.
An ethical alternative to fabrication of information is to avoid fabrication of it. This can be accomplished with the help of modern information theory.
Terry Oldberg:
A person does not provide information by merely stringing together words that have a meaning only understood by their presenter; e.g.
Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
Therefore, I again ask you a question I have repeatedly put to you in past years. It is
Please provide a clear and concise definition of what you mean by an “event” such that anyone can understand what is – and what is not – an “event” as you understand it.
All your comments will remain meaningless nonsense unless and until you answer this question.
Richard
Richard
Love the Jabberwocky quote
and the movie:
Mr. Jackson, I do not wish to criticize you here, but I am trying to follow the points you guys are making. I do not think that one can precisely say that the words “control” and “influence”, whether in broad usage or a specific context, are as completely distinct in their meaning as you are implying.
Just saying…this is muddying the debate.
CONTROL
[ kənˈtrōl ]
NOUN
1.the power to influence or direct people’s behavior or the course of events:
“the whole operation is under the control of a production manager”
synonyms: jurisdiction · sway · power · authority · command · dominance · government · mastery · leadership · rule · sovereignty · supremacy · ascendancy · charge · management · direction · supervision · superintendence
VERB
1.determine the behavior or supervise the running of:
“he was appointed to control the company’s marketing strategy”
synonyms: be in charge of · run · manage · direct · administer · head · preside over · supervise · superintend · steer · command · rule · govern · lead · dominate · hold sway over · be at the helm · head up · be in the driver’s seat · run the show
INFLUENCE
[ ˈinflo͝oəns ]
NOUN
the capacity to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of someone or something, or the effect itself:
“the influence of television violence”
synonyms: effect · impact · control · sway · hold · power · authority · mastery · domination · supremacy · guidance · direction · pressure
VERB
have an influence on:
“social forces influencing criminal behavior”
synonyms: affect · have an impact on · impact · determine · guide · control · shape · govern · decide · change · alter · transform · sway · bias · prejudice · suborn · pressure · coerce · dragoon · intimidate · browbeat · brainwash · twist someone’s arm · lean on · put ideas into one’s head
Menicholas
Well said. The field of engineering contains a theory that bears on the control of a system. This field is called “control theory.” It is not called “influence theory” though the control of a system is usually imperfect.
Terry Oldberg:
The difference between ‘control’ and ‘influence’ is that
(a)
while a controlling factor and an influencing factor may each have an effect,
(b)
a controlling factor can govern an influencing factor
(c)
but an influencing factor cannot govern a controlling factor.
The difference is clearly seen in governments where both politicians and civil servants can affect conduct of the entire populace (including politicians and civil servants) but politicians can establish laws that civil servants must obey while civil servants can only interpret how to apply laws. Politicians are people who like power, and civil servants are people who like influence (as I do).
My having cleared that up for you, I again ask that you answer my question to you that in this thread is here and I remind that it is
Please provide a clear and concise definition of what you mean by an “event” such that anyone can understand what is – and what is not – an “event” as you understand it.
Richard
It seems that there are other questions Terry is evading…
lsvalgaard:
What are the questions that I am evading?
You are evading even to look: richardscourtney June 29, 2015 at 10:53 pm
lsvalgaard:
In the post that you reference by richardscourney at 10:53 pm I find a quibble over one’s definition of “control” plus a demand by Courtney for me to define what I mean by “event.” On numerous previous occasions I’ve responded that my definition of “event” is identical to the definition of this term in the ancient field of probability and statistics. To imply that I have not yet responded is incorrect.
Regarding Courtney’s quibble, you can substitute for “control” what every word that you wish for the process that yields the desired state of nature given the observed state of nature and the meaning will remain the same.
I thought you had gone away, but no, since you are still here then try not to evade the question I asked now several times.
This conversation has gotten ridiculous. So long forever.
Good riddance…
Richard Courtney:
In engineering there is a field of study called “control theory.” There is no field of study called “influence theory.” Control theory encompases situations in which the degree of control is partial as well as situations in which the degree of control is total. It is in this sense that I have used the term “control.”
Regarding your demand that I “provide a clear and concise definition of what you mean by an “event” such that anyone can understand what is – and what is not – an ‘event’ as you understand it…,” probability and statistics is an established discipline within which the term “event” is well defined. My definition of this term is identical to the definition within this discipline. You appear to wish to defame me by painting me as a person who so inept within his own discipline as to misunderstand the term ‘event’. Is this true?
Terry Oldberg:
In this thread I have again repeatedly put to you a question that you have repeatedly evaded in the past; viz.
Please provide a clear and concise definition of what you mean by an “event” such that anyone can understand what is – and what is not – an “event” as you understand it.
And in this thread you have now repeated an evasion you have used in the past; viz.
OK. If that be true, then you can simply provide an answer to my question by copying&pasting the definition from an accepted text book which you reference. Please do.
And you ask me a question ; viz.
I wish you would answer my question which I have yet again put to you in this post.
Please do NOT make untrue accusations concerning my motivation especially when – as in this case – they take the form of ‘Have you stopped beating your wife?’.
You are again failing to answer my question. It is a matter of opinion as to whether your failure defames you; personally, I don’t think it could.
Richard
richardscourtney:
You are as able as I to look up the definition of “event.” To imply that my definition of the word differs from the established definition appears to be an attempt by you to defame me. I demand that you stop this behavior NOW!
Terry Oldberg:
Make all the demands you want: I will treat them with the contempt they deserve.
I will desist from asking you my question if and when you ever answer it. I again remind that it is:
Please provide a clear and concise definition of what you mean by an “event” such that anyone can understand what is – and what is not – an “event” as you understand it.
Richard
richardscourtney:
I understand that UK defamation law places the burden of proof on the defendant in a lawsuit. How do you defend yourself from the charge that you have defamed me?
Terry Oldberg:
You write
richardscourtney:
Please, please, please sue me! I could use the money!
My defence is clear: i.e. I have not defamed you and you have no argument and/or evidence that I have defamed you.
I have asked you, and I am asking you
Please provide a clear and concise definition of what you mean by an “event” such that anyone can understand what is – and what is not – an “event” as you understand it.
You have failed – and you are failing – to answer my question.
Richard
richardscourtney:
You’ve made my case against you. Thanks!
Terry Oldberg:
You don’t have “a case against” me, but if you are so deluded as to think you do then – as I said – please sue me because I could use the money.
Having got the idiocy about suing me out of your system, please now answer my question; viz.
Please provide a clear and concise definition of what you mean by an “event” such that anyone can understand what is – and what is not – an “event” as you understand it.
Richard
richardscourtney
As the term “event” is defined mathematically and in works that are readily accessible to you it would be pointless for me to respond in any other way than to refer you to this literature. One of these works is “Foundations of the Theory of Probability” by A.N. Kolmogorov . The URL is http://www.kolmogorov.com/Foundations.html . I have nothing further to say to you about this topic.
Terry Oldberg:
I looked at your link; (viz. http://www.kolmogorov.com/Foundations.html ) to a paper titled “Foundations of the Theory of Probability” by A.N. Kolmogorov.
I cannot find a clear definition of “event” in that paper.
If you think there is one then why don’t you quote it?
I remind that here in this thread I wrote in reply to your claiming the definition you accept is in “the literature” by saying to you
You have NOT done that.
I yet again repeat my question that you have completely failed to answer.
Please provide a clear and concise definition of what you mean by an “event” such that anyone can understand what is – and what is not – an “event” as you understand it.
Richard
richardscourtney:
If you have passed a course in probability theory then you already know the definition of “event.” If you do not know the definition, you can look it up, take a course or do whatever else turns you on. Please desist from further requests for me define it for you. I’m not your tutor.
Terry Oldberg
If you had attended a course in probability theory then you would be able to provide the definition of “event” that you use.
Clearly, you do not know the definition because you have demonstrated beyond any doubt that you cannot answer my question which is
Please provide a clear and concise definition of what you mean by an “event” such that anyone can understand what is – and what is not – an “event” as you understand it.
As I explained to you in this thread here
And you cannot answer my question because you don’t have an answer.
Richard
richardscourtney:
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to demonstate (once again) that richardscourtney is capable of muddying the climatological waters by drawing a false conclusion from an argument made by him in a climatological blog.
The major premise to richardscourtney’s argument is “A implies B” where in approximate translation A is the proposition “person X completed a course in probability theory” and B is the proposition “person X knows the definition of ‘event’.”
Arguments with true conclusions are of two forms. One is
A implies B
A
Therefore B
The other is
A implies B
NOT B
Therefore NOT A
A implies B is not necessarily true for person X could have completed a course in probability theory and forgotten the definition of “event” after taking and passing the final exam. Let’s assume this premise is true and see where this assumption leads us.
richardscourtney assumes that NOT B is true and draws from this assumption the conclusion that NOT A is true. In reality, A and B are both true. By his argument richardscourtney has burdened the climatological community with a pair of newly minted falsehoods.
Terry Oldberg:
The ON:Y thing this sub-thread has demonstrated is that all your posts are meaningless nonsense because you use terms that have no stated meaning and which you can define.
I give you yet another chance to obtain some small degree of credibility.
Please provide a clear and concise definition of what you mean by an “event” such that anyone can understand what is – and what is not – an “event” as you understand it.
Richard
A better word for this is hysteresis. Climate is a hysteretic system as it’s current state is dependent on its past state. Anyone claiming that more record warm years having occurred recently as proof of AGW either doesn’t understand this or is purposely deceitful.
The event is measuring the temperature. Very fundamentally, by measuring it, you are affecting it. For example, a mercury-in-glass thermometer would emit or absorb energy in order to report the temperature.
I’m damn sure I clicked on Willis’ reply button!
By golly I think you are right Mr Ghost. If you stuck a 2 ounce thermometer that was at 2 degrees C into the Pacific Ocean, would you lower the temperature of the entire Pacific by more or less than 0.00000000000000000000000001 degree ??
Let’s try it and see!
Yup….but then we run into a big problem when we try to do that measurment.
..
We’d need a third thermometer…..which would then require a fourth to offset the third , and a fifth……..
Oh, yeah! Is this like adding value added tax to your annual tax payment?
Annual taxes have a negative value, so you subtract, not add them.
Ah, you’re obviously not British! Here, we have something called Value Added Tax (VAT). If you run a business, you have to collect tax on purchases from your customers, then pay it to the Government. But your purchases (anything you pay out) are tax deductible. So, as you have to pay the tax, if you could deduct VAT from that payment, then it would alter your initial payment, meaning that it would, in turn, alter your deduction. This would go on until you disappeared up your own…
Terry Oldberg, you say:
Suppose I measure the temperature of 1-cm metal cube in a Stevenson Screen every afternoon with an embedded thermistor. I do this every afternoon at 3 PM for a month. At the end of that time, I notice that during that particular month, afternoons when the cube got warmer than 15°C at 3 pm have been much more frequent than afternoons that never got above 15°C at 3 pm.
How is that not a statement about both the “frequencies” and the “relative frequencies” of events?
Again I have to ask … what am I missing? I truly don’t understand your objection.
w.
his posting – http://wmbriggs.com/post/7923/
“No statistical population underlies the models by which climatologists project the amount, if any, of global warming from greenhouse gas emissions we’ll have to endure in the future”.
What I gather rgb is saying when he speaks of spatial correlation is that spatial autocorrelation can also exists in such a radial division case of dividing the 360 degrees into five sectors. If the five ‘spokes’ were all to be rotated plus or minus 20 degrees or so you probably would have completely different results since each adjacent sector tends to carry some of the same characteristics (good or bad) as its two neighboring sectors. That is, do these results only hold their significance levels for just that one particular choice of where the sector divisions were chosen to lie?
A new method to my madness about picking horse races.
Just use my psychic powers to predict winners.
So far, it ain’t working any better than throwing darts, but all it takes is one score to make me a believer 🙂
Willis, you can give the study authors some credit. Look at the last paragraph,
Pretty reasonable I would say.
I drew attention to this above, but it doesn’t save the authors. The problem is they can’t draw any inference from the data even in-sample i.e. they can’t generalize these results to intermediate time periods for example.
What they have done is investigate sea ice and taken some measurements of it. These they report. It is perhaps useful to graph these, report means, standard deviations, trends etc but these remain just descriptive statistics.
However there is no basis for inference or calculating the probability of those inferences (of which confidence limits are one artifact) until a model for the inference is postulated. This is not done in this study (or is only done by inference). Only then can one test if observations independently sourced fit with the hypothesized model.
The much more fundamental problem with this paper and many like it is that it implicitly uses the same data to both create and validate the implicitly hypothesized model.
What is normally done is a relationship is hypothesized. One set of data is used to estimate the parameters of the model and then a separate independently selected set is used to test it.
jeez June 28, 2015 at 1:32 pm says:
Call me crazy, but I fail to see how this paragraph excuses the authors use of improper statistics and bad math to come to a totally unwarranted conclusion. And this is particularly true in todays overheated conditions, with people waiting to print “ANTARCTIC ALBEDO IN DEATH SPIRAL” kinds of headlines.
w.
I just see the words “In the future…more…data…necessary…validate…”, and my brain translates into “We will be needing more money from now until forever.”
And the dark clouds part and the sun shines through the murk.
I ran the birthdays on 100 current sitting Senators. There are 10 pairs of birthdays on the same day; one pair each month except July, May and April; with 2 pair in December and a triple Birthday for May 3rd.
OMG!
What are the odds!
🙂
dipchip, what are the odds of any Senator declaring themselves atheist or agnostic? Should be pretty good, given the general population. So let’s take a look and see how many atheist Senators there are…
Hmm, that’s odd. What are the chances of that?
The title has “Albedot” (with a terminal “t”), though the link uses “albedo.” Is the misspelling of albedo deliberate?
How interesting. All this time and neither I nor anyone else noticed.
Fixed, thanks, well spotted,
w.
I was going to look up your spelling to see if was latin or french perhaps, with the silet t.
But, alas, I never got around to it on this fine Sunday
You have a silent ‘n’ there!
I read this blog every day and had the most fun reading that I have had in a while. I took Statistics in College and only barely passed, so I am learning here. Kinda hard to learn though while laughing so hard!
…Near as I can tell, statistics was invented by gamblers to answer this type of question. …
Er… I think that was Probability. Statistics is a subtly different topic…
That’s correct. Probability theory stands on the theoretical side of science. Statistics stands on the empirical side. Statistics acts as a check on the claims of probability theory.
troll.
davideisenstadt:
In the midst of debate on Earth’s climate it is logically improper to characterize one’s opponent, whether this characterization is written in disparaging terms or flattering ones. This is because there is not a form of logical argument that employs the character of one’s opponent as a premise and leads to a valid conclusion about the climate. If you disagree, I’d like to see your argument. Otherwise, for the future please confine your remarks to ones leading to logical conclusions about the climate.
It seems to be difficult to load coins such that seven simultaneous heads happen reliably. https://izbicki.me/blog/how-to-create-an-unfair-coin-and-prove-it-with-math.html
Terry Oldberg June 28, 2015 at 1:11 pm
Once again, I fear your explanation hasn’t helped. So let me take you up on your suggestion. Here’s the histogram of the HadCRUT4 monthly global average temperatures, from January 1850 to September 2014.
The things that I’m counting in assigning heights to the bars are the number of months in the last century and a half with average temperatures within a certain temperature interval.
As you might notice, the histogram has the shape we’d expect (a sinusoidal distribution), indicating that we’re measuring something real, and in an informative manner.
I’ve done what you asked, I’ve “construct[ed] a histogram from a global temperature time series of [my] choice”.
What’s next?
w.
Willis:
Here is an experiment you can perform in Excel that may help you understand the difference between a finite set of numbers and a statistical/probabilistic model.
Generate 100 sets of 100 numbers formed by taking the ratio of pairs of independent random numbers drawn from a Normal Distribution with mean 0 and standard deviation 1. Calculate the mean and standard deviation of each of these sets. What do you notice? Try increasing the set size to 1000. Then to 10000. What do you notice? Does the Sigma/Sqrt(N) standard error work here?
(From a statistical perspective, you are generating numbers from a Cauchy Distribution, which does not have either a finite mean or variance).
Keep up the good work.
Walt D. June 28, 2015 at 6:59 pm says:
Thanks, Walt, but I think that I’m aware the difference between a finite set of numbers and some probabilistic model. So before assuming that I don’t know, perhaps you could quote whatever I said that gave you the incorrect assumption that I don’t “understand the difference”.
What do I notice? I notice that you haven’t realized that I am familiar with the often perplexing issues surrounding non-stationary datasets. Why on earth would you think otherwise?
Thanks for your good thought. However, please cut back on the assumptions about what I do and don’t know. I’m self-taught, but I’m far from ignorant in these matters.
Finally, it appears that you are replying to my comments and questions to our friend Terry. I fear regarding those questions, the only person on the planet who can answer is Terry or his appointed representative, and I fear you are neither.
All the best,
w.
Histogram says 1950, not 1850.
I love this example because Willis will never understand why samples taken from a Cauchy Distribution fail to disprove his thinking yet it’s the first (any typically the only) example from probability theory that is used to show the limitations of statistical theory.
He doesn’t even understand the difference between probability and statistics until he googles it.
Willis:
The next step would be for you to infer the value of the probability of each of the vertical bars. If you complete this step you will have constructed a univariate statistical model. This is not the kind of model that is needed for control of the climate but is a good place to start to try to build one .
You can make each inference through use of the frequency values you have already recorded. For the time being I suggest use in making these inferences of the intuitive rule of thumb that statisticians call “maximum likelihood estimation.” It assigns the value of the relative frequency of a bar to the corresponding probability. The relative frequency of a bar is the frequency of this bar divided by the sum of the frequencies of all of the bars.
Terry Oldberg June 29, 2015 at 1:35 pm
Terry, the next step would be yours, not mine. You asked me to do something before, and I did it. In your words:
So I did that immediately, in just the manner you’d asked, and guess what? You seemed to think that the “sampling units” would be problematic because you claim that they “have yet to be identified”. You seem incapable of identifying them, at any rate, as you say:
I’m sorry for your lack of ability to identify the “sampling units”, but they were no problem for me. I constructed the histogram that you seemed to think I could only “try to construct”. I identified the sampling units. And I waited for you to come back and explain why your claims regarding un-identified “sampling units” weren’t as significant as a fart in a whirlwhind …
… and instead, you come back with a whole new list of stuff that you want me to do? Dude, you are a real piece of work. Do your friends fall for that kind of nonsense more than once?
Terry, I tried it your way. Once. I did what you asked, and now you’ve bailed on replying, and are trying to hide behind telling me to do more and different mystery tasks that you can run away from commenting on …
I’ll pass on that. Dealing with you is one of the most unpleasant things I’ve done all week. I’m done with it. You can go play your games on someone else, Terry. Tell them they can’t do things and then when they do, ask them to do something else …
Good luck with that,
w.
Willis:
You’ve admitted to ignorance of elementary concepts of probability and statistics. I am up to speed on these concepts. Thus I’ve attempted to tutor you on these concepts, free of charge. The result reminds me of the scenario that resulted from my attempt as an unpaid volunteer in local public schools to teach a Spanish-speaking third grader to read in English. From day one she exhibited hostility to being taught. Sometimes this hostility was expressed by rudeness to me personally. After several weeks of this her teacher and I reached the mutual conclusion that to try to teach her was a hopeless cause because she did not want to learn.
I am crackin’ up watching the St. Louis TV weather make a big deal out of the current rainy conditions like it’s never happened before. The dude just used the term ‘torque’ to describe a slight rotation of the system! Unprecedented melodrama…
yes, highest unprobability too were 50times repeated +-
thankfully the ‘2015 Environ. Res. Lett. 10’ crew did their study not in the real antarctis so no icebreaker needed to return them to save grounds.
Regards – Hans
When you detrend the data, you estimate the trend using the data. This slope estimate is uncertain. How is the slope distributed given autocorrelated data?
You then use the detrended data to estimate the autocorrelation. Even for a single “correct” trend, this is uncertain. How uncertain is the autocorrelation estimate given the uncertain slope estimate?
Willis, I said SOME credit.
The problem of analysis of significance of ‘geophysical’ time series [such as temperatures, pressure, sunspot numbers, etc] has been ‘solved’ long ago. The fundamental variable is the ‘number of degrees of freedom’. Geophysical time series have ‘positive conservation’, meaning that high (low) values are likely to be followed by other high (low) values at least for some time. The classical (and I submit, still valid) treatment of this problem can be found in ‘Geomagnetism’ by Chapman and Bartels (1940). It can be found here: https://ia600600.us.archive.org/30/items/GeomagnetismVol2_29446/Chapman-GeomagnetismVol2.pdf pages 582 ff sections 16.27-16.28 that bear reading. Taking sunspot numbers as an example it, remarkably, turns out that in 1024 days, or nearly 3 years, the number of independent daily numbers (degrees of freedom) is only about 3, and in a full solar cycle, only about 20.
“Geomagnetism” was published in 1940, eight years prior to the publication by Claude Shannon of “A mathematical theory of communication” aka “information theory” and forty years prior to the publication by Ronald E. Christensen of enhancements to information theory that adapted it to scientific theorizing (see for example Christensen’s book “Multivariate Statistical Modeling.”) Prior to the publication of Shannon’s and Christensen’s works scientists employed intuitive rules of thumb in selecting the inferences that would be made by the theories they constructed. There were many rules of thumb each selecting a different inference in a given situation. In this way, the manner in which scientists of this period theorized negated the law of contradiction (LNC). Negation of one of the three classical laws of thought horrified many logicians. It seems to have horrified few scientists.
Today, the opportunity is open to scientists to satisfy the LNC via replacement of rules of thumb by principles of reasoning based in modern information theory. Though this opportunity has been open for 35 years, few scientists have seized it. Among the scientists who have failed to seize it are global warming climatologists.
The modern theory of information has been very useful in dealing with random noise, but [as evidenced by e.g. climate ‘science’] not is dealing with non-random time series.
lsvalgaard:
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
You wrote: “…not is dealing with non-random time series.” I think you meant
to write “…not is dealing with non-random time series.”
Actually information theory works fine with non-random time series. Also, while this approach to theorizing has been used in meteorology, I’m not aware of any uses in global warming climatology. In selecting the inferences that are made by their models global warming climatologists use intuitive rules of thumb and ignore the resulting violations of the law of non-contradiction.
I meant to write “The modern theory of information has been very useful in dealing with random noise, but [as evidenced by e.g. climate ‘science’] not in dealing with non-random time series”
Of course, information theory can deal with non-random series, but is not any more useful than the classical methods. Perhaps you could link to a clear-cut example of the additional usefulness…
lsvalgaard:
Information theoretic model building technology selects the inferences that will be made by the model that is under construction by information theoretic optimization. The classical approach uses intuitive rules of thumb for the same purpose. Theoretically, optimization ought to work as well or better,
The paper entitled “Entropy Minimax Multivariate Statistical Modeling II: Applications” (Int. J. General Systems, 1986, Vol 12, 227-305) contrasts the performances of models built by the classical and information theoretic approaches on identical data sets. Models built by information theoretic optimization exhibited a superior ability to predict the outcomes of events in all cases examined and a greatly superior ability in most of them.
The experience with mid- to long-range weather forecasting models is pertinent to the question of which approach should be used in building global warming models. On predictive tasks for which random chance yielded 50% success in predicting the outcome the comparative success rates were:
Classical Information theoretiC
40% 70%
45% 74%
57% 69%
35% 69%
43% 71%
53% 60%
In 13 studies spread over a variety of fields of study, the classical approach yielded statistically significant accuracy ( at the 0.10 level or better ) in 2 while the information theoretic approach yielded statistically significant accuracy in 10.
A description of a long-range weather forecasting model that was built by information theoretic optimization could be of interest. It forecasts precipitation outcomes at precipitation gauges in the Sierra Nevada east of Sacramento over forecasting horizons of 1-3 years with statistical significance. The URL is http://www.knowledgetothemax.com/The%20model%20that%20revolutionized%20meteorology.htm .
Is not responsive to my request. It is not about ‘building models’, but about analyzing time series.
Terry Oldberg June 29, 2015 at 3:59 pm
That citation is a joke. It gives only one reference to try to figure out which “long-range weather forecasting model” it is babbling about (Christensen et al 1980e), with no corresponding actual information at the bottom of the page. It appears to be some fanboy’s uncited claims about something he read about somewhere.
What are we to make of this claim, for example:
That is meaningless. It doesn’t contain anything near enough information to form an opinion about the results. But my favorite part was this one …
Like the previous statement, this one also has totally inadequate information to even understand what the claim is.
Terry, this citation of yours is just a press release, and not a very good one. It is advertising, not science. Like my laundry detergent, it just says “Use For A Whiter and Brighter Climate!” … but whiter than what? “Extremely wet” sounds great, but wetter than what? Brighter than what? What is “long range weather forecasting”? Ten days? Two weeks? A month? A season? A year?
Like I said, Terry, I fear that your citation is just advertising, and poor advertising at that. The advertising is so poor that they’re advocating a product that to date, despite searching, I’ve been unable to find—the (presumably Christensen) 1980 study that actually made whatever claims your press release is retailing second-hand …
Regards,
w.
PS—Leif is right. Your response was unresponsive to his statement, which (like this thread) is about the analysis of non-random time series, and not the prediction of the future by climate models. Here was Leif’s request:
Willis:
It apparently has escaped your attention that the Web site that contains my description of the long-range weather forecasting model of Christensen et al also contains a citation to a peer-reviewed paper, published by the American Meteorological Society, describing the research that led to this model and the conclusions from it. Will you now retract your disparaging remarks?
Terry Oldberg June 29, 2015 at 9:24 pm
Jeez, you actually wrote that piece of junk description of the Christensen model yourself? Well, I can understand why you didn’t sign it, I wouldn’t want my name associated with that either …
As to whether a citation to the study exists somewhere else, I’m sure it does. Perhaps it even exists somewhere on that web site. But then not being a mind reader, how could I know where it was? You expect me to guess? Doesn’t work that way. I’m very sure I’m not going to go on some snipe hunt for information, for you or anyone else. I did a search for Christensen and found nothing on either google or google scholar, whether on that web site or anywhere else.
Now you tell me it exists somewhere, but you are still not providing us with a link … sorry, Terry, but I’m unwilling to follow your clues as to where something is.
Heck, no, why should I? I was disparaging what turns out to be your work, which is a single-page uncited unreferenced poor description of some model somewhere that even to this date you haven’t identified and linked to. That poor description is still as bad and as vague and as unreferenced as it was when I first read it, so why on earth would I want to retract my remarks? It was junk then, and it’s junk now.
w.
Willis Eschenbach:
Your critique of my description of the Chrisensen et al model begins with an application of the poisoning the well fallacy: “Jeez, you actually wrote that piece of junk description of the Christensen model yourself?” In the future I request that you not apply this or any other fallacy in debating a climatological issue. Applications of fallacies have the capacity to lead people to false or unproved conclusions. In science the aim is to come as close as possible to reaching true conclusions.
In the remainder of your critique you concentrate your fire on the alleged fact that the peer-reviewed article of Christensen et al is not cited. Actually, the article is cited but on a different Web page than the one that you evidently read. The URL of this page is http://www.knowledgetothemax.com/Bibliography.htm . Several articles on meteorological models developed by Chrisensen and his colleagues are cited. The article that you wish to read may be Christensen, R., R. Eilbert, O. Lindgren and L. Rans, 1980e.
By the way, the Web page that you read is a part of a tutorial on the topics of logic and scientific theorizing. In lectures to meetings of the American Nuclear Society, American Chemical Society, American Institute of Chemical Engineers and American Society for Quality I’ve delivered similar messages. A similar message is delivered in the three part article that is entitled “The Principles of Reasoning” and is published in the blog Climate, Etc. “The Principles of Reasoning” was published under the peer-review of the owner-editor of this blog, Judith Curry. As you may know, Dr. Curry is a professional climatologist and is chair of Earth Sciences at Georgia Tech. The last time I checked, Google’s search engine ranked part III of this article #2 among 325,000 citations produced by a search on “The Principles of Reasoning.”
Professor Emeritus Ted Hill of Georgia Tech used to divide up his class in half using a criteria unknown to him. Each member of the class drew a slip of paper. Half the class was assigned to flip a coin 200 times, the other half was to make up coin flip results off the top of their head. Professor Hill guessed right as to whether the student was a coin flipper or made up his or her results over 95% of the time. When flipping coins honestly, there’ a probability over 95% that there will be at least 1 run of 7 -either heads or tails.
When people make up their own results, they are very unlikely to include such long runs.
Sadly, some students got repetitive strain injury and sued the Prof.
For 95% of his annual salary.
http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/feature/1998/4/the-first-digit-phenomenon
Paywalled.
Thanks, Willis. The probabilities of you writing a boring article approach 0.
I need to find something better to do with my life than read this stuff.
Dinostratus:
Well said. Perhaps we could convince Willis to desist from publishing articles that are based upon probability and statistics while he remains ignorant of the basis concepts of probability and statistics.
Regardless, you are still evading my simple request. Perhaps for good reason.
lsvalgaard:
What’s your request? Also, please cut out the innuendo.
Repeating myself:
Of course, information theory can deal with non-random series, but is not any more useful than the classical methods. Perhaps you could link to a clear-cut example of the additional usefulness
lsvalgaard:
I believe that I provided for you a number of clear-cut examples of the additional usefulness. They lie in the realm of scientific theorizing. I gather that your interests lie outside scientific theorizing but do not understand these interests with enough specificity to respond to your request for a clear-cut example of the additional usefulness. Please clarify.
You are not responsive. Your example was about building models, not about analyzing time series.
And BTW, the ‘law of contradiction’ is more than 2000 years old, so hardly qualifies as modern information theory. I don’t need another lecture about how brilliant you are.
lsvalgaard:
I remain in the dark regarding the question to which you say I am unresponsive. In what significant respect does building a model differ from analyzing a time series?
Regarding the law of contradiction, the age of this law is irrelevant as it still applies to situations for which information needed for a deductive conclusion is not missing. Information theory extends logic into the realm in which information for a deductive conclusion is missing. This is the realm in which scientific research is conducted.
That “I don’t need another lecture about how brilliant you are” states an emotional response rather than a reasoned argument. It would be best if you were to stick to the latter.
I remain in the dark regarding the question to which you say I am unresponsive. In what significant respect does building a model differ from analyzing a time series?
Apparently you do.
My question is: in what significant respect is model building equal to analyzing a time series?
And about the emotional response: “please cut out the innuendo” is a emotional response as well as urging me to stick to something. I respond the way I consider appropriate. Who are you to tell me otherwise? So don’t.
Information theory extends logic into the realm in which information for a deductive conclusion is missing. This is the realm in which scientific research is conducted.
Is hogwash. I have been a rather successful and much cited scientist for half a century. So don’t come and tell me that I don’t know the realm in which science is conducted.
lsvalgaard:
You’ve failed to answer my question of “in what significant respect is model building equal to analyzing a time series?” and brushed off my request for you to “cut out the innuendo.” Your lofty reputation is irrelevant. Reasoned discussion with you is evidently impossible. So long for now.
Taking your ball and going home?
in what significant respect does model building differ from to analyzing a time series?
You see, I think they have very little to do with each other. So, it is your task, if you want to be taken seriously, to convince me that I am wrong, and you seem to shrink from that (as I thought you would). And my experience is VERY relevant, whether or not you can see it.
lsvalgaard:
As you have repeatedly evaded this question, I gather that you wish not to responded to the question of “in what significant respect does model building differ from to analyzing a time series?”
You sound like a broken record.
I think those two topics have nothing to do with each other.
Convince me that the have. This should be easy for an expert such as you.
Moderator: I erred. Please strike “basis” and replace it with “basic” in my post of June 29 at 8:58 pm.
terry: youre a troll.
please stop defecating on this discussion thread?
Most of us here appreciate the time lsvalgaard spends here, and look forward to reading his take on issues presented here.
google scholar search him…you will find a myriad of peer reviewed papers, and his research has been cited thousands of times he ha spent his career actually doing the work in the trenches.
As for you…..what do you bring to the table besides equivocation, and “argument clinic” style discourse?
I’ll answer, not much.