Josh writes: Papal thoughts on the environment have been posted all over the place – here at WUWT, over on Dot Earth, and an excellent Twitter dissection here by JunkScience’s Steve Milloy. You can also read the whole thing in Italian here.
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Jim G1
June 16, 2015 8:33 am
For all of the Catholic bashers, the Catholic Church, for all of its many problems, is still one of the few religions which, at least during my life time, does not and has not preached that it is the only way to God. What many do not understand is that most of its pronouncements and rules are not dogma and have no claim to infallibility and are considered by many in the Church to be just as subject to error as any other human edicts. There are, indeed, very few pronouncements which are dogma of the Church and therefore considered infallible. The clue is when the pope says “We”, that would be him and the Holy Ghost, as in inspired teaching.
Why does God need to talk through the Pope? Surely the God that created the Universe can speak directly to each and every person without the need for some middle-man to interpret the “true” meaning.
Ok, so I need the help of someone who’s catholic and read the pronouncement. The paraphrases that I’ve read seem wildly at odds of what I thought the church stood for. Anti abortion; anti birth control; don’t interfere with God’s work/will….
I know it’s metaphorical but I keep wondering how that conversation between God and the Holy see went:
“Uh Francis, you see, I got off on my headcount …. about 6 billion… can you help me with that?”
Pope Francis has more recently stated that “with regards to the ordination of women, the church has spoken and says no…That door is closed.”[5]
Doesn’t this suggest that the Pope considers the word of the Church to be above the word of God. Otherwise, why pay the slightest attention to what the church has said? Why not simply listen to God on the question of ordination of women?
Why didn’t the Pope simply say “God tells me not to ordain women”? Doesn’t the Catholic Church teach that this is Divine Law, the will of God? That God’s will is that only men may be priests?
David Chappell says “So the Roman Catholic church doesn’t subscribe to the first two of the Ten Commandments”
Incorrect. It may seem like a nit, but the commandment is to not have any of your gods before God, but you can have as many as you like after God. These lesser godlets, also known as saints, are many. You can do what you like with them so long as you keep in mind who is the Supreme Being and that these others are less supreme.
On an individual basis you might sin by placing one of these godlets above/before God, but there is no harm in saying they exist.
chris moffatt
June 16, 2015 8:50 am
Instructive that, like any political document these days the pope’s encyclical had to be leaked to the breathlessly waiting media. One thing I don’t find anywhere is an estimate of the size of the vatican’s carbon footprint. Before I’ll pay attention to this old parasite on climate I’d like to know that and what he personally plans to do about it.
@JimGI: including pronouncements about women priests, same-sex marriage and birth control?…
You forgot “no meat on Fridays and limbo for unbaptised babies” both of which were pronouncements, but not dogma, of the Church which were later changed. Unfortunately the Church is run by human beings who make mistakes. But as I said, unlike many other religions, they do not condemn people of other, or even no faith.
Jim G1
Your statement: “…unlike many other religions, they do not condemn people of other, or even no faith…” needs qualification – the Catholic church may not be condemning now, but they used to (inquisition).
kenw
June 16, 2015 8:52 am
Unfortunately, the more politically liberal Christians are consumed with guilt and tend towards the “let’s feed them fish” mindset rather than the scriptural “teach them to fish/become fishers of men” teachings. Rather than accepting grace, they try to gain forgiveness by pious actions, and of course that has no bearing on salvation. The world’s religiously and politically powerful have created a perpetual underclass that has no hope, only the hope in mankind thru government handouts and is content to trade sustenance for a vote. This is 180 degrees out from true Christianity.
Mark from the Midwest
June 16, 2015 8:55 am
I don’t believe this pope is misguided, I believe that he’s just dumb. The brilliance of John Paul II was his ability to balance the material needs of Catholics with the spiritual strictures of the faith, and present them as a guide to living. This current guy is just a bunch of progressive dribble wrapped up in robes, and wearing a funny hat.
I know….John Paul IIs brilliance and political savoir faire and media astuteness followed by Benedict XVI’s sheer intellectual depth really doesn’t leave much room for a guy who is either dull or misguided. I have been waiting for him to say something, anything profound, but he just keeps on blabbing the same ole liberation theology rhetoric from days gone by…. face in palms…
At least we have confirmed that CAGW is a religious tenent.
Louis Hunt
June 16, 2015 9:24 am
If the Pope’s call for a new global political authority is heeded, it won’t matter what else he said. The poor will be abused along with everyone else. Pope Benedict also called for a global authority — a kind of super-UN — with the power to enforce climate and immigration regulations on all countries. Did they think that idea through? I know these men are highly educated, but to put your trust in a powerful, global, secular entity defies common sense and would likely spell doom for religious freedom.
All practices that pollute our water and air, or allow the topsoil to be stripped away are bad for all of us. Anyone here who would mock those who want to have clean air and water is an idiot of the lowest order. The question is not whether pollution is bad but rather, what constitutes pollution. Cee Oh Two is not pollution…until it lies in the bottom of a caldera and kills all living organisms that breath oxygen. At reasonably high levels it is good for plants and hence good for all things that eat plants or eat plant eaters.
Reasoning challenged folk who think it is their right to light a fireplace in a city of a million and one other fireplaces because no one should be able tell them what to do will be unable to breath the result when the other million fireplaces light up on the same night. Emission controls on cars are a good thing. The air in California is far better than it was 40 or 50 years ago even when we consider that the number of people and cars has more than quadrupled. Real pollution is bad and should be regulated and mitigated, whatever the source.
Some who come here to WUWT seem to have trouble with the concept of conservation of our natural environment and want to use militant libertarianism to foul, not just their own nest, but the neighborhood and the community and the region in which they live. We need to strike some kind of reasonable balance between the efficient and beneficial use of our natural resources and the folks on both extremes who either want to lock up all resources in the name of protecting Gaia and those who want to pillage the land at the cost of clean water, air and the visual blight left behind when no restoration is required of the nature rapists. It is for reasonable folks to establish those boundaries that allow for good usage of both renewable resources like crops, whether trees or corn stalks and non-renewable resources like coal or natural gas.
pbh
RH
June 16, 2015 10:16 am
Yep, global warming and demon possession are real, and this senile old imbecile can cure both.
masInt branch 4 C3I in is
June 16, 2015 11:38 am
Buddha Bowl popcorn ready.
Funny thing. When the Pope visits a “poor” country, or any country for the matter, the “poor” are shoveling out garbage cans filled with cash to the Vatican Bank boys.
Ah. So that is why the Pope “Remembers” the “poor”!
Ha ha
masInt says “When the Pope visits a poor country, … the poor are shoveling out garbage cans filled with cash to the Vatican Bank boys.”
That seems a bit unlikely. The poor have no cash to shovel. That is why they are called poor.
You could more properly say they are shoveling “mites” as in the widow’s mite.
Goreacle
June 16, 2015 12:16 pm
In the “Pope’s Leaked Encyclical: Pope identifies climate deniers as a problem” frame from Steve malloy at JunkScience…. I love this tidbit… “or blind faith in technical solutions”…… just another case of the pot calling the kettle black, I guess… sort of ironic that the Pope jabs at those with “blind faith in tech solutions” because religion is sort of “blind faith” at its core when the questions get hard.
mark
June 16, 2015 1:44 pm
I keep thinking of the origins of religion tied to the worship and personifcation of the sun and stars then fast forward to today. Absolutely blows my mind.
“Brother sun, sister moon…” etc is in homage to St. Francis, patron saint of animals and ecology. This was exactly how St. Francis spoke in his preaching. It has nothing to do with “Gaia”.
The Romans switched their gods of travel, medicine, crops, you-name-it, for saints.
And the process then goes on to include praying to the saints, carrying icons of the saints, and making statues of the saints. It is still Roman polytheism. It is in total opposition to all doctrine in the Old and New Testaments. It breaks the second commandment, and further, John says, “Little children, keep yourselves from idols.”
So go fish because I would rather die than be under this Jesuit horse manure.
And this innocent hat tip to Saint Francis of Assissi is not so innocent when it is linked with a regulatory environmental system. https://twitter.com/JunkScience/status/610546811854569472
Sorry John, we can’t get rid of the Swiss Guard, they would be very angry, and probably go back to Zurich and put a hold on all the Vatican’s cash accounts.
[cross posted from another WUWT article on the leaked encyclical]
The Church, whose Pope this is, has faith based dogma as its raison d’être.
The IPCC centric climate change consensus, whose science this Pope cites, is subjectivity created to serve a socio-economic-political ideology.
Both are completely irrelevant to valid fundamental science which is logically applied reasoning confirmed by objectively corroborated observations of reality.
John
Gonzo
June 16, 2015 4:50 pm
I notice the pope says he’s not in favor of carbon credits. Would the vatican have to pay? I wonder what the vatican’s carbon footprint is? This guy’s al gore in a funny looking bonnet!
Chip Javert
June 16, 2015 7:04 pm
It would be truly impressive to see one (even a single one) of these pope guys go after church/pries child abuse. Then they might have some credibility.
Chip Javert says “Then they [pope guys] might have some credibility.”
I think you overestimate his desire to have credibility with non-followers and underestimate his credibility with his followers.
Robin.W.
June 16, 2015 9:37 pm
The Pope endorsing consensus driven, settled science will have Galileo spinning in his grave
Resourceguy
June 17, 2015 10:34 am
Well, the apparent no-cost enviro move does make a nice diversion from the Irish vote and other disasters for the church. What is the cost of being flat wrong 50 years from now and the ridicule of skeptics?
For all of the Catholic bashers, the Catholic Church, for all of its many problems, is still one of the few religions which, at least during my life time, does not and has not preached that it is the only way to God. What many do not understand is that most of its pronouncements and rules are not dogma and have no claim to infallibility and are considered by many in the Church to be just as subject to error as any other human edicts. There are, indeed, very few pronouncements which are dogma of the Church and therefore considered infallible. The clue is when the pope says “We”, that would be him and the Holy Ghost, as in inspired teaching.
Why does God need to talk through the Pope? Surely the God that created the Universe can speak directly to each and every person without the need for some middle-man to interpret the “true” meaning.
Surely He can and probably does if we are listening. You might like the gnostic gospel of Thomas.
Ok, so I need the help of someone who’s catholic and read the pronouncement. The paraphrases that I’ve read seem wildly at odds of what I thought the church stood for. Anti abortion; anti birth control; don’t interfere with God’s work/will….
I know it’s metaphorical but I keep wondering how that conversation between God and the Holy see went:
“Uh Francis, you see, I got off on my headcount …. about 6 billion… can you help me with that?”
Pope Francis has more recently stated that “with regards to the ordination of women, the church has spoken and says no…That door is closed.”[5]
Doesn’t this suggest that the Pope considers the word of the Church to be above the word of God. Otherwise, why pay the slightest attention to what the church has said? Why not simply listen to God on the question of ordination of women?
Why didn’t the Pope simply say “God tells me not to ordain women”? Doesn’t the Catholic Church teach that this is Divine Law, the will of God? That God’s will is that only men may be priests?
A teaching of the Church, not dogma of the Church.
Do nuns kiddie fiddle?
I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest they do.
Do priests kiddie fiddle?
Is the Pope a catholic?
“….has not preached that it is the only way to God.”
So the Roman Catholic church doesn’t subscribe to the first two of the Ten Commandments?
David,
There is a big difference between believing in something and condemning others for not believing or possibly not even knowing about it.
David Chappell says “So the Roman Catholic church doesn’t subscribe to the first two of the Ten Commandments”
Incorrect. It may seem like a nit, but the commandment is to not have any of your gods before God, but you can have as many as you like after God. These lesser godlets, also known as saints, are many. You can do what you like with them so long as you keep in mind who is the Supreme Being and that these others are less supreme.
On an individual basis you might sin by placing one of these godlets above/before God, but there is no harm in saying they exist.
Instructive that, like any political document these days the pope’s encyclical had to be leaked to the breathlessly waiting media. One thing I don’t find anywhere is an estimate of the size of the vatican’s carbon footprint. Before I’ll pay attention to this old parasite on climate I’d like to know that and what he personally plans to do about it.
@JimGI: including pronouncements about women priests, same-sex marriage and birth control?…
You forgot “no meat on Fridays and limbo for unbaptised babies” both of which were pronouncements, but not dogma, of the Church which were later changed. Unfortunately the Church is run by human beings who make mistakes. But as I said, unlike many other religions, they do not condemn people of other, or even no faith.
Jim G1
Your statement: “…unlike many other religions, they do not condemn people of other, or even no faith…” needs qualification – the Catholic church may not be condemning now, but they used to (inquisition).
Unfortunately, the more politically liberal Christians are consumed with guilt and tend towards the “let’s feed them fish” mindset rather than the scriptural “teach them to fish/become fishers of men” teachings. Rather than accepting grace, they try to gain forgiveness by pious actions, and of course that has no bearing on salvation. The world’s religiously and politically powerful have created a perpetual underclass that has no hope, only the hope in mankind thru government handouts and is content to trade sustenance for a vote. This is 180 degrees out from true Christianity.
I don’t believe this pope is misguided, I believe that he’s just dumb. The brilliance of John Paul II was his ability to balance the material needs of Catholics with the spiritual strictures of the faith, and present them as a guide to living. This current guy is just a bunch of progressive dribble wrapped up in robes, and wearing a funny hat.
I know….John Paul IIs brilliance and political savoir faire and media astuteness followed by Benedict XVI’s sheer intellectual depth really doesn’t leave much room for a guy who is either dull or misguided. I have been waiting for him to say something, anything profound, but he just keeps on blabbing the same ole liberation theology rhetoric from days gone by…. face in palms…
Nobody expects the Climate Inquisition!
Oh?
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/04/21/nobody-expects-the-climate-inquisition-2/
At least we have confirmed that CAGW is a religious tenent.
If the Pope’s call for a new global political authority is heeded, it won’t matter what else he said. The poor will be abused along with everyone else. Pope Benedict also called for a global authority — a kind of super-UN — with the power to enforce climate and immigration regulations on all countries. Did they think that idea through? I know these men are highly educated, but to put your trust in a powerful, global, secular entity defies common sense and would likely spell doom for religious freedom.
All practices that pollute our water and air, or allow the topsoil to be stripped away are bad for all of us. Anyone here who would mock those who want to have clean air and water is an idiot of the lowest order. The question is not whether pollution is bad but rather, what constitutes pollution. Cee Oh Two is not pollution…until it lies in the bottom of a caldera and kills all living organisms that breath oxygen. At reasonably high levels it is good for plants and hence good for all things that eat plants or eat plant eaters.
Reasoning challenged folk who think it is their right to light a fireplace in a city of a million and one other fireplaces because no one should be able tell them what to do will be unable to breath the result when the other million fireplaces light up on the same night. Emission controls on cars are a good thing. The air in California is far better than it was 40 or 50 years ago even when we consider that the number of people and cars has more than quadrupled. Real pollution is bad and should be regulated and mitigated, whatever the source.
Some who come here to WUWT seem to have trouble with the concept of conservation of our natural environment and want to use militant libertarianism to foul, not just their own nest, but the neighborhood and the community and the region in which they live. We need to strike some kind of reasonable balance between the efficient and beneficial use of our natural resources and the folks on both extremes who either want to lock up all resources in the name of protecting Gaia and those who want to pillage the land at the cost of clean water, air and the visual blight left behind when no restoration is required of the nature rapists. It is for reasonable folks to establish those boundaries that allow for good usage of both renewable resources like crops, whether trees or corn stalks and non-renewable resources like coal or natural gas.
pbh
Yep, global warming and demon possession are real, and this senile old imbecile can cure both.
Buddha Bowl popcorn ready.
Funny thing. When the Pope visits a “poor” country, or any country for the matter, the “poor” are shoveling out garbage cans filled with cash to the Vatican Bank boys.
Ah. So that is why the Pope “Remembers” the “poor”!
Ha ha
Your white sheet is showing.
Gerry Shuller says “Your white sheet is showing.”
What were you doing in my bedroom???
masInt says “When the Pope visits a poor country, … the poor are shoveling out garbage cans filled with cash to the Vatican Bank boys.”
That seems a bit unlikely. The poor have no cash to shovel. That is why they are called poor.
You could more properly say they are shoveling “mites” as in the widow’s mite.
In the “Pope’s Leaked Encyclical: Pope identifies climate deniers as a problem” frame from Steve malloy at JunkScience…. I love this tidbit… “or blind faith in technical solutions”…… just another case of the pot calling the kettle black, I guess… sort of ironic that the Pope jabs at those with “blind faith in tech solutions” because religion is sort of “blind faith” at its core when the questions get hard.
I keep thinking of the origins of religion tied to the worship and personifcation of the sun and stars then fast forward to today. Absolutely blows my mind.
https://twitter.com/JunkScience/status/610553419930173440
Thanks for the twitter link, that was interesting.
“Brother sun, sister moon…” etc is in homage to St. Francis, patron saint of animals and ecology. This was exactly how St. Francis spoke in his preaching. It has nothing to do with “Gaia”.
The Romans switched their gods of travel, medicine, crops, you-name-it, for saints.
And the process then goes on to include praying to the saints, carrying icons of the saints, and making statues of the saints. It is still Roman polytheism. It is in total opposition to all doctrine in the Old and New Testaments. It breaks the second commandment, and further, John says, “Little children, keep yourselves from idols.”
So go fish because I would rather die than be under this Jesuit horse manure.
And this innocent hat tip to Saint Francis of Assissi is not so innocent when it is linked with a regulatory environmental system.
https://twitter.com/JunkScience/status/610546811854569472
If I were Pope, I would downsize the Vatican to three people. There would be the Pope, his cook and his butler.
John
Sorry John, we can’t get rid of the Swiss Guard, they would be very angry, and probably go back to Zurich and put a hold on all the Vatican’s cash accounts.
Your butler leaks, Your Holiness.
[cross posted from another WUWT article on the leaked encyclical]
The Church, whose Pope this is, has faith based dogma as its raison d’être.
The IPCC centric climate change consensus, whose science this Pope cites, is subjectivity created to serve a socio-economic-political ideology.
Both are completely irrelevant to valid fundamental science which is logically applied reasoning confirmed by objectively corroborated observations of reality.
John
I notice the pope says he’s not in favor of carbon credits. Would the vatican have to pay? I wonder what the vatican’s carbon footprint is? This guy’s al gore in a funny looking bonnet!
It would be truly impressive to see one (even a single one) of these pope guys go after church/pries child abuse. Then they might have some credibility.
Chip Javert says “Then they [pope guys] might have some credibility.”
I think you overestimate his desire to have credibility with non-followers and underestimate his credibility with his followers.
The Pope endorsing consensus driven, settled science will have Galileo spinning in his grave
Well, the apparent no-cost enviro move does make a nice diversion from the Irish vote and other disasters for the church. What is the cost of being flat wrong 50 years from now and the ridicule of skeptics?