Guest Opinion: Dr. Tim Ball
In The Real World
The early Greeks had a better, more basic understanding of weather and climate than the people involved in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Indeed, the word climate derives from the Greek word klima, meaning inclination, referring to the climate conditions created by the angle of the Sun. They paid great attention to the wind, realizing its role in creating local, regional and seasonal conditions. They even erected a tower to the wind in Athens (Figure 1) with sculptures representing each major compass direction.
Figure 1
The Greeks focused on the more important horizontal movement of air, technically called advection or more commonly, wind. In the modern era people like C. W. Thornthwaite understood the role of wind as he considered, surface and air temperatures, insolation and wind speed, major factors affecting the potential for evaporation and evapotranspiration. More recently, Hans Jelbring’s 1998 doctoral thesis, Wind Controlled Climate was one of the few to draw attention to the critical role of wind.
Wind, Water, and Energy Transfer
It is not possible to identify critical points in the complex system that is weather and climate, but that is what the IPCC was set up to do. It began with the limited definition of climate change and continued with the selection of variables and mechanisms used in their computer models. It is possible to identify areas they omit that are critical to understanding, or at least make understanding impossible without their inclusion. Two of them are the phase changes of water and the related energy absorptions and releases involved, and the transport of that energy by the wind.
The IPCC essentially consider only the vertical winds of convection, but by their admission do it inadequately. Convective cells are the major mechanism of vertical energy transfer from the surface to the atmosphere, especially in the tropics. Like so many individual portions of their models it is sufficient alone to explain why their predictions (projections) are consistently wrong. The region where the greatest transfer occurs is along the Inter Tropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ). A major part of the IPCC problem is that the convective cells created and visible as large cumulus clouds around the Equator (Figure 2) are too small to appear in the model grids. Modelers describe them as “sub-grid scale”.
A bigger failure of IPCC analysis of weather and climate involves advection, the horizontal movement of air commonly known as wind.
Phase changes of water and wind are most important right at the surface, but the IPCC only deal with conditions at the Stevenson Screen from 1.25 to 2 meters and above. Traditional climate research involved microclimate studies in the boundary layer, defined as the layer of air within a few meters of the surface. Oliver and Fairbridge in their 1987 Encyclopedia of Climatology define “Boundary layer climatology” as
“the study of the processes that link the surface of the Earth to the lower atmosphere as well as the general features that are established as a consequence.”
“The term boundary layer initially was borrowed from the field of fluid mechanics by micrometeorologists who used it in their investigations of the lower atmosphere.”
Some refer to this layer on the land as the Biosphere because it is where the majority of flora and fauna exist, but they only serve to complicate the dynamics in an already complex area. As Essex and McKitrick explain in Taken By Storm when discussing the relatively less complicated ocean/atmosphere surface,
“The interactions between the air and oceans form a whole universe of impossible complexities of its own.”
“The fluid dynamics and thermodynamics together place such impossible demands on us that we can neither measure nor calculate from either of these two classical theories alone or together.”
The basic physics is extremely problematic, but like everything else for the IPCC the lack of real data is an equally serious problem.
Amount of wind data is as limited in space and time as all other weather variables. Averages have little value as it relates to the work done. A low average may include a few severe gusts that do more work and create extensive damage very quickly. Besides, wind at the weather station doesn’t represent conditions even a short distance away because the station is deliberately exposed. In any other location the season of the year and local features all modify conditions. A body of water will create onshore and offshore breezes almost daily. Wind direction and speed varies with seasons.
The IPCC predictions (projections) are consistently wrong. When you read their Working Group I Physical Science Basis Report, it is easy to understand why. There is a multitude of limitations, omissions, and misrepresentations most of which on their own could explain the failed predictions. They cover this by creating the illusion of certainty in the Summary for Policymakers (SPM). There they fudge, cherry pick, omit, misrepresent and make unjustified speculations about data and evidence that doesn’t fit their agenda.
These actions are necessitated by the constant push to prove their hypothesis. As Richard Lindzen said years ago, the consensus was reached before the research had even begun. From the beginning, evidence has constantly emerged, and almost all of it contradicts the assumptions made and reinforces a null hypothesis, which the IPCC never entertained. Instead, they create explanations that are later proved incorrect. Their claim of a positive feedback from water vapor in the climate sensitivity of CO2 problem is a good example.
IPCC Water Problems
Failure to deal with water in all its phases is a serious limitation in every aspect of weather and climate studies, and the IPCC make it worse. Here is another example that involves water. The rate of evaporation and evapotranspiration has been declining in most parts of the world. This is in apparent contradiction to the IPCC theory that with global warming evaporation will increase. Here is how they try to explain it away in AR5.
AR4 concluded that decreasing trends were found in records of pan evaporation over recent decades over the USA, India, Australia, New Zealand, China and Thailand and speculated on the causes including decreased surface solar radiation, sunshine duration, increased specific humidity and increased clouds. However, AR4 also reported that direct measurements of evapotranspiration over global land areas are scarce, and concluded that reanalysis evaporation fields are not reliable because they are not well constrained by precipitation and radiation.
In summary, there is medium confidence that pan evaporation continued to decline in most regions studied since AR4 related to changes in wind speed, solar radiation and humidity. On a global scale, evapotranspiration over land increased (medium confidence) from the early 1980s up to the late 1990s. After 1998, a lack of moisture availability in SH land areas, particularly decreasing soil moisture, has acted as a constraint to further increase of global evapotranspiration.
The leading excuse is “decreased surface solar radiation” or “dimming” as some call it. It is the primary choice because even if they are wrong it is desirable to have a human cause. The claim that decreasing soil moisture is a problem is offset by their admission that,
Since the TAR, there have been few assessments of the capacity of climate models to simulate observed soil moisture. Despite the tremendous effort to collect and homogenize soil moisture measurements at global scales (Robock et al., 2000), discrepancies between large-scale estimates of observed soil moisture remain.
The most likely explanation is changing wind speed, but that is only listed in the summary. Three factors determine the rate of evaporation: temperature of the water, air temperature, and wind velocity. Simple basic research confirms that wind velocity is the most important. Without adequate wind data, chances of determining the flux accurately are very low.
AR4 Physical Science Report says,
Unfortunately, the total surface heat and water fluxes are not well observed. Normally, they are inferred from observations of other fields, such as surface temperature and winds. Consequently, the uncertainty in the observational estimate is large – of the order of tens of watts per square metre for the heat flux, even in the zonal mean.
The AR5 Report says,
Surface fluxes play a large part in determining the fidelity of ocean simulations. As noted in the AR4, large uncertainties in surface heat and fresh water flux observations (usually obtained indirectly) do not allow useful evaluation of models.
The phrase “usually obtained indirectly” indicates a measure calculated from other variables and usually far removed from actual measures. Often they are estimates from another computer model, input into other models as if it is real data. In the case of a flux, it is a combination of variables that determine the rate of movement of gas or liquid across the interface between the water or land surface and the atmosphere. The accuracy of data and knowledge of mechanisms at this interface are critical in weather and climate studies.
Monsoons are one place where the failure of the data and models to deal with flux and wind are most evident. The Indian Monsoon is one of the largest global transfers of heat and energy. AR4 said,
In short, most AOGCMs do not simulate the spatial or intra-seasonal variation of monsoon precipitation accurately.
AR5 specifies the importance of the monsoons to forecast accuracy.
High-fidelity simulation of the mean monsoon and its variability is of great importance for simulating future climate impacts.
However, they also conclude in as obtuse a language as they can muster that the models don’t work. They claim better results than for AR4, but they still fail to simulate monsoons.
These results provide robust evidence that CMIP5 models simulate more realistic monsoon climatology and variability than their CMIP3 predecessors, but they still suffer from biases in the representation of the monsoon domain and intensity leading to medium model quality at the global scale and declining quality at the regional scale.
The early Greeks didn’t know about fluxes, or phase changes, but they knew about the importance of the sun and the wind in determining weather and climate. Based on their failed predictions the IPCC hasn’t made any advances on what they knew and understood. Aristotle’s student Theophrastus produced the first book On Weather Signs listing empirical observations used to forecast weather. Many are still used today. IPCC computer model forecasts have failed in less than 30 years.
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So thinking back to the article on deforestation and albedo…. do trees take the 2 meter boundary layer and make it 10-30 m thick?
I sometimes refer to Warmists as; ‘water vapour convection cooling deniers’. Not very catchy though!
How about evaporation deniers?
A few years back one of the IPCC AR models predicted a 4.0 C increase in global temperatures by the year 2100. The World Bank published a report on the calamity ensuing from such a temperature rise. In subsequent IPCC reports that rise has fallen to 2.0 C or even 1.5 C. Let’s just stay with the 4.0 C.
1.0 C= 1.8 F 4.0 C = 7.2 F
Suppose the beginning average global temperature to be 60.0 F and 67.2 F by 2100.
According to the psychrometric properties of moist air, an increase in temperature without any increase in water content from 60.0 F to 67.2 F requires the input of 1.74 Btu/lb.
The same 1.74 Btu/lb of heat could be absorbed by evaporating more water into the air, increasing the grains per pound of dry air.
At 60 F, 50% RH water vapor comprises 0.550% of the air. At 60F, 64.4% RH water vapor comprises 0.71% of the dry air.
A relatively small change in RH and water vapor concentration could absorb the same amount of heat with no dry bulb temperature change.
That’s where the missing heat went, into the clouds. Look at both sides, now.
When I first saw he word “advection” I thought you were referring to how we’re constantly vexed in the MSM with ads for CAGW. 😎
Dr. Ball,
When I was a kid taking numerous courses on mathematical methods in geophysics, the professors always went to great lengths to emphasize how limited and modest the various models were. They were forever checking students on running too far with results. It was drilled into us over and over and over that these models, while not without charm and utility, were gross — almost laughable — oversimplifications, and that the real world was infinitely more complex.
So ingrained is this understanding that ‘a stick figure is not a real man’ that I am now constantly flabbergasted, if not appalled, by the extent to which climate models are now presented as near perfect substitutes for real climate. It’s like a bizarre dream.
Please keep posting here! Your articles are invaluable, and I look forward to each and every one.
Max
And for the environmentalists, The problem with the faulty steam generators that caused the shutdown and eventual closure of the San Onofre Nuclear power plant was – wait – – – An inadequate computer analysis of the fluid dynamics in the steam generator, A fairly trivial thing to model compared to trying to model the entire Earths atmosphere.
Excellent comment: “‘a stick figure is not a real man.’
Are your ready for a non-conventional explanation? Other explanations (advection in this instance) are not wrong as much as they are incomplete and lacking in details (sometimes important details) that are necessary to properly conceptualize atmospheric flow.
First some basic facts:
1) Our atmosphere is a big sponge for energy. This is the result of the friction of gases.
2) Consequently there is a large amount of energy in our atmosphere. The molecules are moving very fast, 900 miles an hour. We generally refer to this energy as air pressure. Believe it or not this energy (air pressure) is the source of the energy that powers winds–but maybe not in the way you might first assume:
3) The means or mechanism by which the energy in air (air pressure) is converted to wind involves aerodynamics.
4) Aerodynamics requires a surface that can reflect energy and/or isolate a flow from the friction of gases.
5) Due to the friction of gases, streams, like jet streams, could not exist in our atmosphere unless there was some way to isolate the stream-flow from the friction of gases. Again this involves the existence of a surface that can reflect energy into a stream flow–aerodynamics.
6) At and along boundary layers between moist air and dry air, with the inclusion of energy (wind shear) a plasma phase of H2O emerges. This plasma provides the surface that reflects energy into a stream flow.
(BTW: this “plasma” is plainly observable as the “thick air” that comprises the cone/vortex of tornadoes.)
7) This plasma tends to spin around the central axis of flow producing a tubular structure (a vortex) that further isolates a stream flow (the jet streams) from the friction of gases. This isolation and the above mentioned reflection of energy into a stream flow is the reason for the high winds of the jet stream.
8) The jet stream is located at the boundary between the stratosphere and the troposphere. The reason it is located here is because, as explained in #6 above, the plasma must have a boundary between moist air and dry air and that is what exist between the very dry stratosphere and the relatively moist troposphere.
9) This is not a perfect system in that eventually the moisture falls out and the structure of the jet stream breaks down, this causes winds (advection) that generally track the same direction as the jet stream.
10) Additionally, the energy that would have been contained in the jet stream will tend to track down producing storms. Storms pull more moisture up higher (sometimes all the way up into the lower stratosphere) and this functions to re-establishes the moisture content in the upper troposphere.
11) Sometimes this, above mentioned, down tracking energy will encounter a moist/dry boundary layer in the lower atmosphere. This can result in the re-establishment of a plasma vortex similar to that of a jet stream. This vortex can sometimes grow all the way to the ground to produce a tornado.
12) Mitigating tornadoes can be achieved by interrupting the smoothness, length and integrity of moist/dry boundary layers in the lower troposphere.
It is important to note that without the H2O-based plasma that I mentioned above jet streams (and tornadoes) couldn’t possibly exist because friction of gases would prevent the conservation of energy (wind speed) that makes them possible. And since the jet streams are what powers the winds, the winds too would not exist without this H2O-based plasma. And this is all a good thing because the (usually) relatively calm weather conditions that we experience on this planet also would not exist (theoretically).
The general misconception is that winds are produced by differential air pressure. As I explained above, although this is not completely mistaken in reality this type of flow is generally not able to overcome the sponge effect of the friction of gases.
For more follow this link:
http://www.solvingtornadoes.com
Very interesting comment! Wondering if this plasma also has something to do with the “atmospheric rivers” all the rage in forecasting.
Yes, absolutely. Jet streams and “atmospheric rivers” are one and the same. Here is another post along those lines:
http://wp.me/p4JijN-by
Discover the spin that underlies the twist:
http://wp.me/p4JijN-aE
Thanks for the response!
Jim McGinn
@ur momisugly Solvingtornadoes:
“6) At and along boundary layers between moist air and dry air, with the inclusion of energy (wind shear) a plasma phase of H2O emerges. This plasma provides the surface that reflects energy into a stream flow.”
Totally down with your explanation, but can you comment on the “chicken and egg” issue here where, based on the above, it makes it sound like it took wind to form the plasma that formed the jet streams that make the wind. How did the jet stream get formed in the first place then, and what role do the rotation of the planet and pressure differentials have in that process, whether initially or now?
Also, I would assume that on other planets where H20 is not as common in the atmosphere, the plasma for seeding the jet streams comes from another compound?
Has anyone heard of the period of great winds around 6-7000 years ago that filled in many low-lying areas with vast amounts of sand in places like the Gobi desert and Kyzylkum desert in Uzbekistan where there had been civilizations before?
Great question. As you suggest, the notion that winds can’t result from differentials in pressure is itself not exactly true. A better way to conceptualize it is that differential pressure cannot, in and of itself, produce highly focused, directed winds that bring us to refer to them as “prevailing” winds. So differential pressure doesn’t not produce any wind. It just doesn’t produce the bulk of the winds (how much? I don’t know) in contrast to what people generally assume. The jet streams are the conduits that do most of the work of achieving relative equillibrium. And I agree with you that pressure differentials must have been involved with initiating the first jet streams and, I suspect, that it regularly plays a role in initiating new jet streams even now. (Frankly, I’m somewhat amazed at the insight evident in your question. It’s encouraging to me to know that I’m not the only one that thinks about these things.)
As for your conjectures about alternate forms of plasma on other planets, I don’t know. I do know that one reason H2O is capable of forming a plasma is because of its non-Newtonian properties (related to its polarity and resulting hydrogen bonding). And only under very peculiar and particular conditions (wind shear along moist/dry boundaries) can the plasma phase of H2O emerge.
I had not heard of the “period of great winds,” that you mention. But that sounds fascinating.
I highly encourage you to look further into understanding the plasma phase of H2O. It is the most important concept in all of atmospheric physics and it is almost completely unknown and obscured by superstition from meteorologists and climatologists.
Follow this link for more:
http://wp.me/p4JijN-aE
@solvingtornadoes from Laredo
Thanks for the info. Yes. plasma is just beginning to be understood. M.T. Keshe talks a lot about plasma and magnetic field interaction although I’m not sure how much of it is validated, but it sounds like you may be able to determine if his work sounds legit. I’d love to hear your opinion on it. My friend hosts live online workshops weekly with Mr. Keshe that you may want to check out: http://original.livestream.com/kesheworkshop
Another great book from 1955 that I believe is all about plasma is Karl Schappeller’s work by Davison called “The Physics of the Primary State of Matter,” in which he says that steam production requires a “heat stressfield,” adding to your idea that there is no “cold steam.” The book is at
http://www.free-energy-info.com/Davson.pdf
All I know about the great winds is from the following:
From pg ~290 of Beelzebub’s Tales to his Grandson by G.I. Gurdjieff (ca 1925)
“The cause of the destruction of these ‘centers of culture’ and of the
changes on the surface of the Earth was a new catastrophe, the third for this
ill-fated planet.
“This third catastrophe was entirely local in character, and occurred as a
result of unprecedented accelerated ‘displacements of parts of the atmosphere’
or, as your favorites would say, ‘great winds,’ which lasted several years.
“And the cause of these abnormal displacements, or ‘great winds,’ was
once again those two fragments which had broken off from this planet of
yours during the first great calamity [comet strike] and which later became small
independent planets of that solar system, known today as the ‘Moon’ and ‘Anulios.’
“Strictly speaking, the main cause of this third terrestrial catastrophe was
the larger of the fragments, namely the Moon, the smaller fragment, Anulios,
played no part in it whatsoever.
“The accelerated displacements in the Earth’s atmosphere came about in
the following way:
“When the atmosphere around the small, accidentally arisen planet Moon
had been finally formed, and the Moon was still falling back upon its
fundamental mass, by a path established according to the already mentioned
‘law of catching up,’ and this newly arisen definite presence around the Moon
had not yet acquired its own harmony within the ‘common-system harmony of
movement,’ then the ‘osmooalnian friction,’ as it is called, not being
harmonized with the whole, provoked in the Earth’s atmosphere these
accelerated displacements, or ‘great winds.’
“And by the force of their currents these unprecedented ‘great winds’ began
to wear away the projecting land masses and to fill up the corresponding
depressions.
“Among these depressions were the two regions of the continent of
Ashhark where the process of existence of the first and second groups of the
beings of what is now called ‘Asia’ were chiefly concentrated, that is to say,
the main parts of the countries of Tikliamish [Uzbekistan] and Maralpleicie
[Gobi Desert].
“Certain parts of the country of Pearl-land [India] were also covered by sand, as
well as the region in the middle of the continent of Grabontzi [Africa] where, after the
loss of Atlantis, there was formed the leading ‘center of culture,’ as they called
it, for all the three-brained beings there—a region that in those times was the
most flourishing part of the surface of your planet and is now a desert, known
as the ‘Sahara.’
“Bear in mind that, besides the countries I have mentioned, several other smallish
land surfaces of that hapless planet were also covered by sand as a result of those
abnormal winds.
“It is interesting to note here that your contemporary favorites also learned, by
some means or other, that the three-centered beings of that period changed the
places of their permanent existence, and having attached one of their ‘labels’
to this, namely, the ‘great migration of races,’ they stuck it on to what they call
their ‘knowledge.’
“A number of the ‘learned’ there are now puffing and blowing with all their
might to find out why and how it all occurred, so that they can tell everybody
else about it.
“At the present time there are several theories about this that have nothing
in common and, in an objective sense, are each more absurd than the other,
but are nevertheless recognized there by what is called ‘official science.’
“But in fact, the true cause of the migration of the three-centered beings of
that epoch was that as soon as this process of erosion began, the beings
inhabiting the continent of Ashhark, fearing to be buried by the sands, started
to move to other, safer places. And this migration took place in the following
order:
“Most of the three-brained beings populating Tikliamish moved to the
southern part of the continent of Ashhark, to the country later called ‘Persia,’
while the rest moved north and settled in the regions afterward called
‘Kirghizcheri’ [Russia??].
“As for the beings inhabiting the country of Maralpleicie, some wandered
eastward, while the others, the majority, went toward the west.
“Those who went east, after crossing high mountains, settled on the shores
of a large ‘saliakooriapnian’ space, in the region later called ‘China.’
“And those beings of Maralpleicie who had sought safety by moving to the
west, after wandering from place to place,
ultimately reached the neighboring continent, later called ‘Europe. ‘
“As for the three-brained beings who existed in the middle of the continent
of Grabontzi, they dispersed over the whole surface of the planet.
Blowhards ignoring wind. Go figure.
Is it true that the GCMs model the earth’s radiation balance as on a a disc rather than on a sphere?
Yes, otherwise they’d have to use mathematics.
On wind.
Here is another variation on that theme:
The Fourth Phase of Water:
http://wp.me/p4JijN-5A
http://www.solvingtornadoes.com
Pollock gets some things right. He recognizes that evaporation and atmospheric moisture involves clumps of positively charged H2O that are pulled up by residual negative charges from the other gases in the atmosphere. In and of itself, this conceptualization is a major advance over meteorologists (including Tim Ball) who have self-deluded themselves into believing in convection is the result of “cold steam.”
But Pollock does’t realize that this only explains how moisture gets about 1000 meters (to produce “inversion” layers). And his speculation about electric charges powering wind is wrong. It fails to explain, for example, why the winds generally blow from west to east.
And, what about the importance of wind across ocean surfaces and the uptake on carbon dioxide?
Weather micro climate is already utilized in computers like what you are right now using. It is called “heat-pipe”. It can move heat very fast long distances from the CPU to the heat sink.
Heat pipes moves heat energy very effectively around and now if you think how effective can be globe size heat pipe.
http://www.heatpipe.nl/index.php?page=heatpipe&lang=EN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe#/media/File:Laptop_Heat_Pipe.JPG
But your heat pipe is using sensible heat transfer, not latent heat of evaporation. Spray some water on that CPU and it will lose heat much faster than the heat pipe.
Don’ do this at home!
Latent heat is not applicable. Evaporation is not a phase change.
“Evaporation is not a phase change.”
Please disregard my comments to you below. I had skipped to the bottom of this comments section, and thus was unaware that you are not to be taken seriously.
My apologies.
Only simpleminded twits believe evaporation is a phase change. Why don’t you collective geniuses start a company that makes auto engines that run on the power of evaporation. LOL.
Get an education.
“Only simpleminded twits believe evaporation is a phase change. Why don’t you collective geniuses start a company that makes auto engines that run on the power of evaporation. LOL.
Get an education.”
I regret suggesting you are not a serious person.
Obviously you are serious.
Out of respect for the host of this site and the clearly stated guidelines, I shall decline to engage you further.
Except to wonder if it has ever occurred to you to take your own advice?
All the best to you, sir.
What next? Are you going to invent a time machine?
Can you explain how you get latent heat from a nonexistent phase change?
“Can you explain how you get latent heat from a nonexistent phase change?”
No.
Can you explain why you think that H2O cannot exist in the air as single molecules?
Some demonstration of the factual basis of this claim please.
BTW, does this apply to other molecules with significant hydrogen bonding, such as ammonia, NH4?
No. I cannot explain why it cannot happen. Can you explain why something that, according to you, is so prevalent in the atmosphere has never been observed, measured, or even detected under controlled laboratory conditions?
To solvingtornadoes and Menicholas, I second the questions put by solvingtornadoes and also ask Menicholas to explain meaningfully. I don’t understand why do you worry for the existence of water as a molecule H2O, one way to isolate it into molecular form is by heating to 100 degree centigrade with latent heat, but what is the other way? Thanks! solvingtornadoes, I am honored.
“I don’t understand why do you worry for the existence of water as a molecule H2O,”
I don’t get that either. Why are people so attached to a notion that has zero confirming evidence and for which there is a wealth of evidence that suggests the boiling point of water is unalterable. A guy on Quora stated that all of thermodynamics would have to be thrown out if what I’m saying is true. That’s crazy, of course. But he seemed to think that was a good argument for it being wrong, which is even more crazy. People lose their minds when something they have believed for a long time is revealed as nonsense.
“BTW, does this apply to other molecules with significant hydrogen bonding, such as ammonia, NH4?”
Of course.
“Can you explain why something that, according to you, is so prevalent in the atmosphere has never been observed, measured, or even detected under controlled laboratory conditions?”
Untrue.
The volume of one mole of water at STP is about [22.4] liters, just as it is for other gasses.
This can only be the case if it exists as individual molecules.
Also, the formation of frost as a crystalline form of ice demonstrates that water molecules are being added one at a time.
Why do you think that you know something that every physical chemist has overlooked?
What is your evidence that H2O exists as “H2O x X”?
When students take college levels course in such scientific studies as physics, chemistry etc, they are not simply fed facts from a book. Every class must be taken with a laboratory section, in which things are verified, from the simple and mundane to the complicated.
If you like I can refer you to the proof you state does not exist.
“The volume of one mole of water at STP is about 2.4 liters, just as it is for other gasses.”
STP corresponds to 273 K (0° Celsius) and 1 atm pressure. That is the freezing point of water. How did you manage to make such an obvious mistake?
“This can only be the case if it exists as individual molecules.”
What?
“Also, the formation of frost as a crystalline form of ice demonstrates that water molecules are being added one at a time.”
Really? How so?
“Why do you think that you know something that every physical chemist has overlooked?”
Why do you think I don’t know something that every physical chemist has overlooked?
“What is your evidence that H2O exists as “H2O x X”?”
Hundreds of years of laboratory evidence confirms the boiling point of H2O. You know this, of course.
“When students take college levels course in such scientific studies as physics, chemistry etc, they are not simply fed facts from a book. Every class must be taken with a laboratory section, in which things are verified, from the simple and mundane to the complicated.
If you like I can refer you to the proof you state does not exist.”
You cannot and will not. Because it cannot be done.
This is not just academic. This is why it matters:
http://wp.me/p4JijN-78
“If you like I can refer you to the proof you state does not exist.”
Well . . . ?
“The volume of one mole of water at STP is about [22.4] liters, just as it is for other gasses.”
Pardon my typo. Of course I meant to type 22.4 liters.
I am cooking dinner, and am in a hurry. Among the dishes I am preparing is some steamed rice and veggies!
Impossible you say!
Maybe that is why you aren’t making any sense. You are confused on STP. Just assume 1 ATM and and ambient temps. Do you believe water is a gas at this pressure and temperature? Seriously?
solvingtornadoes wrote: “Do you believe water is a gas at this pressure and temperature?”
So a sealed box containing only water molecules with a temperature maintained at 0 C would have only liquid/solid water at the bottom? No water vapor anywhere in the box? No vapor pressure above the liquid? Just a vacuum?
I think not. Fatal flaw in solvingtornadoes logic.
Are you dense? I indicated 1 ATM. You changed it to 0 ATM (a vacuum). At 0 ATM and 0 degrees celsius the boiling point of water is below -50 Celsius. So any of the ice that melts will instantly turn to gaseous H2O (steam). If you were paying attention you would have seen that right on this same thread there is a chart that indicates just that.
(Of course, the size of the container would also be a factor in that in a smaller container the pressure would go up faster.)
You are not following the logic. The temperature is maintained at 0 C. It cannot change (up or down). By your logic, if you put just H20 molecules in a box, they would all form a liquid/solid at the bottom and a vacuum would form in the rest of the container. In reality (and according to established molecular theory), gaseous H20 forms at all temperatures above absolute zero in the box. If there is 22.4 L of space in the box, the pressure from the water vapor at 0 C would be 1 atm. That is the meaning of the statement “The volume of one mole of water at STP is about 22.4 liters, just as it is for other gasses.”
Stop pretending you understand something you don’t and read the chart I suggested above. At 1 ATM 0 degrees Celsius is the freezing point of liquid water. Its boiling point is 100, at 1 ATM. At 0 degrees Celsius, if air is mixed into the box (which you must have to get 1 ATM) you will also have evaporate. Evaporate is not a gas. It is a liquid. Any vapor pressure in your box will NOT BE THE RESULT OF GASEOUS H2O IT WILL BE THE RESULT OF ELECTRO-STATIC FORCES THAT EXIST BETWEEN THE DROPLETS AND THE AIR MOLECULES.
It’s meaningless–and just plain stupid–to talk about the gas volume of something that is not a gas.
Do not respond to this unless and until you’ve thoroughly considered what I have stated here.
Nope, you are missing point. It is not necessary to add air to get 1 atm of pressure. Any gas can exert pressure. And water does just that, in vapor form, at all temperatures above absolute zero according to both theory and experiment.
Your assertion that water cannot exist in vapor form at 1 C and 1 atm is simply wrong.
OMG, this is surreal. Read the frickin chart you dumb SOB. If you don’t add air then you have a vacuum, 0 ATM. And the boiling point will be below -50, as we already discussed. And, yes, this will produce some GAS pressure (not vapor pressure).
Then, as if to prove you are dumber than dumb, you claim I stated something I didn’t. Yes, I know water can exist as a vapor (evaporate) if there is some air in the container. I FRICKIN JUST EXPLAINED THIS TO YOU. I stated that it cannot/will not be a gas at 1 ATM unless it is over its boiling point temp of 100 Celsius. A vapor (evaporate) is liquid droplets/clusters suspended between air molecules by electrostatic charges. A gas is mono-molecular H2O. H2O only becomes a gas above its boiling point, which at 1 ATM is 100 degrees Celsius.
Pay attention.
For more follow this link:
http://wp.me/p4JijN-6R
[Cut the cursing. .mod]
Oops, 0 C.
If you wish to redefine vapor to suit your needs, that is your decision. But don’t expect the rest of the world to understand your argument. Water vapor (gas) is quite capable of exerting a measurable pressure in the absence of all other gases at 0 C. Your assertion to the contrary is pure fantasy, and contradicts established experiment and theory.
The behavior of water is one of the most deceptively complex and counter-intuitive things known to science. People want to believe it is simple. Consequently what has emerged is a whole cult of beliefs that are not based on anything empirical but on the lowest common denominator–consensus. Consensus based group-think causes people to believe that what other people believe is itself empirical evidence.
As you have demonstated vividly, there is zero empirical evidence to support your fantasy. All you have is a bunch of other fellow believers who, like you, are incapable of being objective about something that seems simple but is not.
http://wp.me/p4JijN-c4
That you would assert a lack of evidence for water vapor (gas) exerting a pressure and that “evaporation is not a phase change” puts you squarely in the “crank” category. I think we are done here.
“That you would assert a lack of evidence for water vapor (gas) exerting a pressure . . . “.
There is no a lack of evidence. There is lack of intelligence in regard to interpreting/explaining it, as you demonstrated vividly.
” . . . and that ‘evaporation is not a phase change puts you squarely in the “crank” category. ‘”
LOL. If you have a hard time distinguishing between what you understand and what you believe you should avoid the water molecule. Because it will kick your ass every time. Don’t blame me. I’m just the messenger. If you are so sure that evaporate is a gas then, by all means, do an experiment and make your methods and results public. If you do you will be the first. And, if you do, the results will demonstrate that what I am saying is right. Then you can expect a whole world of meteorology groupies and global warming advocates to accuse you of falsifying your results and labeling you a science denier–and a crank!
” I think we are done here.”
You were done before the argument began, you fruitloop.
Follow this link for more:
http://wp.me/p4JijN-45s
Will Dr. Tim Take His Own Medicine?
I appreciate Dr. Tim Ball’s scrutiny of IPCC, but I think the same scrutiny when applied to his own paradigm would yield similar disparities with empirical reality. For example, he states: “Convective cells are the major mechanism of vertical energy transfer from the surface to the atmosphere, especially in the tropics.”
Has this notion and its underlying assumptions (the most pertinent being the assumption that moist air is lighter than dry air and its underlying assumption [that the moisture in moist air is gaseous H2O {“cold steam”} and not a much heavier variant of atmospheric H2O, vapor {vapor being clumps/droplets of H2O}]) been tested? Or, for that matter, have meteorologists even thought about the fact that “cold steam” has never been detected in a laboratory — or anywhere!
If one were to look into it, as have I, they would find that the following comment can be more broadly applied: “As Richard Lindzen said years ago, the consensus was reached before the research had even begun. From the beginning, evidence has constantly emerged, and almost all of it contradicts the assumptions made and reinforces a null hypothesis, which the IPCC never entertained.”
Do You Believe in Cold Steam?
http://wp.me/p4JijN-81
A Simple Experiment That Meteorologists Refuse to do
http://wp.me/p4JijN-7G
BREAKING NEWS: Convection has been tested. And it has failed miserably, a long time ago
http://wp.me/p4JijN-6R
Jim McGinn
http://www.solvingtornadoes.com
Reblogged this on Confronting the Storm of Science Denialism in Meteorology, Storm Theory and Tornadogenesis and commented:
Will Dr. Tim Take His Own Medicine?
65 F, 0% RH, 0.0756 lb/cu ft.
65 F, 100% RH, 0.0750 lb/cu ft.
Yes, moist air is lighter than dry air.
IMHO the term “steam” is reserved for water vapor over 212 F at 14.7 psia or 91.5 F at 1.5 “Hga.
“cold steam” is a contradiction in terms.
I think your data is nonsense. Seriously? Where did you get this? What methodology was employed?
Also, (0.0006 / 0.0750) * 100% = 0.8%
Are you really trying to suggest that a difference of less than 1% (at most) is what powers storms and tornadoes? Are you serious?
“Are you really trying to suggest that a difference of less than 1% (at most) is what powers storms and tornadoes? ”
Are you really trying to suggest that the only energy available in the atmosphere is due to the density differential between different air masses?
Air and water have vastly different densities. Do you think that this difference is what causes waves?H
You seem to believe that the substance called water is incapable of a gaseous phase at temperatures below it’s boiling point.
I would imagine you think that the phase diagram of a substance is a ridiculous fiction, invented by clowns to tease the ignorant?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Phase_diagram_of_water.svg/725px-Phase_diagram_of_water.svg.png
It is not my intent to mock or argue, but merely to understand why and how you have arrived at your views?
Whomever instructed you in your no-doubt extensive education in Physical Chemistry must have been a remarkable individual.
Those who instruct such classes have to deal with a great many misconceptions and erroneous ideas from their students, in order to convey the sometimes very challenging principles involved. Most have learned how to avoid the urge to pull their own hair out in clumps, or to drink heavily, or to commit ritual seppuku.
Most I say. But I am wondering…
“You seem to believe that the substance called water is incapable of a gaseous phase at temperatures below it’s boiling point.”
Yes. It’s absolutely impossible. It’s like “time travel impossible,” as I indicated previously. You might as well be telling me that you can flap your arms and fly.
“I would imagine you think that the phase diagram of a substance is a ridiculous fiction, invented by clowns to tease the ignorant?”
I won’t pretend to understand what you think you see. Pretend I am a naive child. Go ahead. Explain what you think you see. Keep in mind, I never stated that the boiling point does not change with pressure. You stated that the boiling point goes below what is indicated on your chart. So, your own chart proves you wrong–or did I misinterpret something. Go ahead. Explain it to me like I’m a child. What are you waiting for?
“It is not my intent to mock or argue, but merely to understand why and how you have arrived at your views?”
My intention is to get you so embarrassed that you snap our of your delusion. I invite you to do the same to me. But, keep in mind, my creative reading skills might not be as well developed as are yours. I have no dispute with anything on your chart. If you think I missed something then please point it out precisely.
“Whomever instructed you in your no-doubt extensive education in Physical Chemistry must have been a remarkable individual.
Those who instruct such classes have to deal with a great many misconceptions and erroneous ideas from their students, in order to convey the sometimes very challenging principles involved. Most have learned how to avoid the urge to pull their own hair out in clumps, or to drink heavily, or to commit ritual seppuku.
Most I say. But I am wondering…”
I’ve had many great teachers. If you can explain the beliefs that are plainly disputed by the chart you presented then you will join the ranks of the many great teachers I have had. Go ahead. Explain it to us.
“My intention is to get you so embarrassed…”
Not there yet.
Let’s see how you feel after you fail to reconcile the very low magnitude of vapor pressure with your belief that it is indicative of “cold steam.”
“Let’s see how you feel after you fail to reconcile the very low magnitude of vapor pressure with your belief that it is indicative of “cold steam.” end quote
Wait, what?
You are a nitwit that can’t follow a mildly complex argument.
IMHO the term “steam” is reserved for water vapor over 212 F at 14.7 psia or 91.5 F at 1.5 “Hga.
“cold steam” is a contradiction in terms.
If you can’t distinguish between a gas or a vapor then you should avoid science.
IMHO is shorthand for “I My Humble Opinion”.
For someone who thinks nothing of tossing out rude insults, while asserting such things as that everyone who takes words to mean as they have been used, by millions of people for hundreds of years (Such as evaporation meaning the change in phase from, liquid to gas), you opinions would seem somewhat less than humble. But that is just my (not quite as humble) opinion.
IMHO is shorthand for “I My Humble Opinion”.
“For someone who thinks nothing of tossing out rude insults, while asserting such things as that everyone who takes words to mean as they have been used, by millions of people for hundreds of years (Such as evaporation meaning the change in phase from, liquid to gas), you opinions would seem somewhat less than humble. But that is just my (not quite as humble) opinion.”
The first step in my attempt to educate you is to get you to admit that what you believe is not based on anything empirical but is, instead, based on consensus and/or tradition. You have achieved that. Even though you have not yet accepted it emotionally, you have made the conceptual breakthrough to the realization that your belief that evaporation involves a, “change in phase from, liquid to gas” is based not on anything substantive or empirical but on consensus and tradition. You probably don’t fully realize that you just admitted/declared that but there it is in black in white. You stated, ” . . . words to mean as they have been used, by millions of people for hundreds of years . . .”. So, you see, my rudeness has had its intended effect. I snapped you out of your delusion so that you can achieve the self-realization that your belief in “cold steam” is not scientifically valid but is, as you just admitted/declared, nothing but an artifact of group think.
I should warn you, however. You have only taken one small step. You must continue down the path if you are to permanently break free from the mind-numbing effects of meteorology’s mythology.
Keep going! Keep struggling! You’ve taken the first step. Do not stop there!
Nick:
You assumed “cold steam” in your calculations and failed to reveal it. That is dishonest. And then, even with the absurd assumption of relative humidity (100% vs. 0%) you only got a 0.8% difference! You must be a meteorologists.
“cold steam” is a contradiction in terms.
This isn’t english grammar we’re discussing here. “Cold Steam,” is physically impossible. You assumed “cold steam” in your explanation. Now you are dodging the issue.
The issue is vapor pressure. The boiling point of a substance is merely the temperature at which the vapor pressure of that substance in liquid phase is equal to the ambient atmospheric pressure.
At lower temperatures, vapor pressure varies, and this variance is non-linear. Do you believe that the vapor pressure of water is zero below 100C? And instantly rises to 1 bar at 100C?
Do you believe in the concept of vapor pressure?
That molecules in a liquid have a range of velocities and that some of the molecules are thus moving fast enough to escape the surface of a liquid (lets skip sublimation until later), even when the temperature of the liquid is far below the boiling point.
Do you have views on molecular forces other than hydrogen bonding?
What do you have to say about London forces and other van der Walls forces?
If there is no such thing as water vapor, is the phenomenon of evaporative cooling a myth too?
What are we looking at here: (they are from a sort of time machine called a “camera”)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPV-R1BcJZc
“The issue is vapor pressure.”
Well, no. I think you need to take caution when it come to defining what separates our respective conceptualization of this issue. It is not the whole ballgame, nevertheless I agree that vapor pressure is one dimension that provides a substantive platform upon which we can both stand. IOW, we both agree that vapor pressure needs to be reconciled with our respective and differring paradigms. I need to explain it in the context of my thinking and you need to explain it in the context of your thinking and if either of us fail then we have not choice but to reject our own thinking/paradigm.
“The boiling point of a substance is merely the temperature at which the vapor pressure of that substance in liquid phase is equal to the ambient atmospheric pressure.”
You are guilty of circular reasoning with this statement. Boiling is a phase change from liquid to gas. The boiling point of water is not something that is flexible. It’s something that has been demonstrated over and over again in laboratories. Vapor is not a gas. Vapor involves clumps of H2O suspended between air molecules as a result of residual electric charges. It is relatively weak. You are dodging this observation because it does not fit with what you choose to believe. That is foolish. That is dumb. That is stupid. You should kick yourself in the ass for failing to recognize the dramatic difference in magnitude of vapor pressure to gas (steam). You can’t explain, for example, why the vapor pressure at 1 degree below the boiling point and the “vapor” gas pressure at one degree above the boiling point is something like 15 to 20 times greater magnitude. You can’t explain it so you pretend it doesn’t exist. You can’t explain it so you delve deeper into your delusion. I have no need to delude myself. I have no need for self-delusion because I understand the residual electric charges that exist between air molecules and clumps of H2O molecules (vapor). Your ignorance causes you to close your mind and broaden your ignorance. My understanding allows me to see evidence for what it is and does not bring me to pretend I understand something that I do not.
“At lower temperatures, vapor pressure varies, and this variance is non-linear. Do you believe that the vapor pressure of water is zero below 100C? And instantly rises to 1 bar at 100C?”
No. As I explained above.
“Do you believe in the concept of vapor pressure?”
Of course. I just don’t believe that it involves “cold steam.” That is your delusion.
“That molecules in a liquid have a range of velocities and that some of the molecules are thus moving fast enough to escape the surface of a liquid (lets skip sublimation until later), even when the temperature of the liquid is far below the boiling point.”
Right. This is evaporation. And you believe evaporation produces “cold steam,” as you just described. You believe this not because you have any evidence to substantiate this. You believe this because you have deluded yourself into thinking that the weak magnitude of “vapor pressure,” is somehow comparable to the high magnitude pressure of H2O gas (steam) pressure and you want to believe this so badly that you pretend not to notice this huge discrepancy.
“Do you have views on molecular forces other than hydrogen bonding?
What do you have to say about London forces and other van der Walls forces?”
Don’t try to change the subject. Address the issue I raised above: You should kick yourself in the ass for failing to recognize the dramatic difference in magnitude of vapor pressure to gas (steam). You can’t explain, for example, why the vapor pressure at 1 degree below the boiling point and the “vapor” gas pressure at one degree above the boiling point is something like 15 to 20 times greater magnitude. You can’t explain it so you pretend it doesn’t exist. You can’t explain it so you delve deeper into your delusion. I have no need to delude myself. I have no need for self-delusion because I understand the residual electric charges that exist between air molecules and clumps of H2O molecules (vapor). Your ignorance causes you to close your mind and broaden your ignorance. My understanding allows me to see evidence for what it is and does not bring me to pretend I understand something that I do not.
“If there is no such thing as water vapor, is the phenomenon of evaporative cooling a myth too?”
Uh, you say that water vapor (clumps/droplets [often so small they are invisible] of H2O molecules) do not exist. You equate vapor to steam. You believe in cold steam. Not me. Leave me out of your delusions. I would never believe such obvious nonsense.
“What are we looking at here: (they are from a sort of time machine called a “camera”)”
I can’t figure out what your point is. You need to slow down and take it one step at a time. The fact that you believe in “cold steam,” does not mean it exists. And the fact that you conceptually conflate the concept of vapor and the concept of gas does not mean that this is what happens in reality. You are just sidestepping the issue.
BTW, thunderclouds are an observation that REFUTES convection. The fact that you can see a cloud proves that it is not comprised of steam, because steam is invisible. And if the moisture is droplets then the air can only be heavier than dry air. In conclusion, thunderclouds are not powered by and have nothing whatsoever to do with convection.
That meteorologists could have for some many years looked at clouds in the distance and said, “look there’s convection,” show what a intellectually dead paradigm meteorology has become.
“The fact that you can see a cloud proves that it is not comprised of steam, because steam is invisible.”
*rolls the eyes*
Address the issue you evasive jackass.
[trimmed. .mod]
My calculation source was the psychrometric properties of moist air, “cold steam” has nothing to do with it. The range of 0% to 100% was illustrative to show that moist air is lighter than dry air.
For real steam properties consult ASME or Keenan & Keyes.
No meteorology, just a BSME and 35 years of power generation using real steam.
“My calculation source was the psychrometric properties of moist air, “cold steam” has nothing to do with it. The range of 0% to 100% was illustrative to show that moist air is lighter than dry air.”
You pretend to understand something that you don’t. You are still being dishonest. You are still concealing the fact that you assumed “cold steam” in the atmosphere (in your calculations). Your books will not protect you. Your books DO NOT indicated that steam can exist below it’s boiling point. That is your own delusion. Generally, engineers make bad scientists, because they lack the intellectual honesty that is necessary to defeat what you want to believe.
Below its boiling point moisture can only exist as a vapor. It can’t exist as a gas. It doesn’t matter how much you wish to believe otherwise.
What is important here is that the 0.8% difference in water vapor added 972 Btus per pound of air without an increase in the dry bulb.
Atmospheric water vapor concentration is 2,500 ppm while CO2 is 400 ppm. CO2 is a bee fart in a hurricane compared to water vapor which is why CO2 has been increasing while the temperature flat lines because water vapor is absorbing that heat isothermally.
Pollock gets some things right. He recognizes that evaporation and atmospheric moisture involves clumps of positively charged H2O that are pulled up by residual negative charges from the other gases in the atmosphere. In and of itself, this conceptualization is a major advance over meteorologists (including Tim Ball) who have self-deluded themselves into believing in convection is the result of “cold steam.”
But Pollock does’t realize that this only explains how moisture gets about 1000 meters (to produce “inversion” layers). And his speculation about electric charges powering wind is wrong. It fails to explain, for example, why the winds generally blow from west to east.
What is important here is that you stop lying to yourself about what you think you understand but only believe. Moist air is heavier than dry air. Consequently the notion that storms are caused by convection is nonsense. There is not such thing as “cold steam.” That is but a myth.
Sir,
” Moist air is heavier than dry air.” is certainly and demonstrably incorrect.
This can be gleaned in any number of ways. Dry air consists mostly of Oxygen, with molecular weight of 32, and nitrogen, with molecular weight of 28. Water has a molecular weight of 18, and thus water vapor is only about 2/3 as dense as dry air.
This is demonstrated to be true by the atmosphere itself, as air masses interact. When moist air is pushed up against dry air, it climbs up over it, and when dry air is pushed into moist air, it pushes it up quite abruptly.
Since most frontal boundaries also have a difference in the temperature of the two (or more) air masses, the picture is complicated somewhat, but not much. And there are fronts which have little temperature difference, but a large difference in the dew point (absolute humidity). The dry lines which give rise to severe weather (Due to the dry air causing the moist air to be lifted rapidly) in the West Texas region attest to this very clearly.
I am not sure why you say what you are saying, but perhaps it is that the humidity makes people think of and describe such air as “heavy”. This is a perceptual reality due to our physiology, not a physical reality.
Dry air is heavier than moist air.
Why do you doubt it?
If something is demonstrably correct or incorrect is must be demonstrated. You have not done that. If you try to work it out rationally and you make one mistake then your whole argument is worthless. That is what you have done. Your argument is nonsense.
The weight of the moisture in moist air is not 18. It is 18 x X. X being the size of the clump of moisture.
You are a victim of the cold steam myth: http://wp.me/p4JijN-5A
The belief that steam (gaseous H2O) can persist at ambient temperatures in earth’s atmosphere is just dumb. The reason moist air feels heavier is because it is heavier. Moist air is *always* 5 to 15% heavier than dry air.
Why you should never trust what a meteorologist tells you:
http://wp.me/p4JijN-7p
You also make claims about moist air “climbing” over dry air. You think this is a result of convection. You are wrong. It is a result of storms. You probably think storms are caused by convection. Once again, you are wrong.
Yes, storms cause moist air to rise above dry air. But the mechanism is not convection. See my explanation above for a better understanding of what the actual mechanism is.
Don’t believe thing just because you were told to believe them.
O2 = 32, N2 = 28 and CO2 = 44 Total 104 Average is about 104/3 = 35 moist air 104 + 18 (H2O) Average = 122/4 = 33 so moist air is lighter than dry air. Surely it is.
You are not paying attention:
The weight of the moisture in moist air is not 18. It is 18 x X. X being the size of the clump of moisture.
H2O is not a gas at ambient temps. It is a liquid.
You are a victim of the cold steam myth: http://wp.me/p4JijN-5A
The belief that steam (gaseous H2O) can persist at ambient temperatures in earth’s atmosphere is just dumb. The reason moist air feels heavier is because it is heavier. Moist air is *always* 5 to 15% heavier than dry air.
Why you should never trust what a meteorologist tells you:
http://wp.me/p4JijN-7p
“O2 = 32, N2 = 28 and CO2 = 44 Total 104 Average is about 104/3 = 35 moist air 104 + 18 (H2O) Average = 122/4 = 33 so moist air is lighter than dry air. Surely it is.”
You are right. Thank you. The above equation is wrong. Water vapour in the air is small droplets floating in the air and that means many many (may be 1000ds of) times heavier than water molecule. SURELY MOIST AIR IS HEAVIER THAN DRY AIR.
Today at 5:35 AM
“O2 = 32, N2 = 28 and CO2 = 44 Total 104 Average is about 104/3 = 35
moist air 104 + 18 (H2O) Average = 122/4 = 33
so moist air is lighter than dry air. Surely it is.”
The above calculation is wrong I agree, moist air is heavier than dry air. water in the air is surely NOT in the form of gas but floating droplets, MEANS THOUSANDS OF MOLECULES.
THANKS solvingtornadoes
You may be the first person in the history of the internet to change his or her mind and admit it. Thank you, indrdev200.
The world is full of science groupies like yourself who take a few facts and run with them to produce a dumb result. Then they spread the dumb result from person to person. Never does one of them ever bother to think about what they are actually saying. When challenged they do nothing but repeat the few facts they understand and declare victory–Just like you are doing here.
If you are right, then you are the smartest person in the world and everyone else is a ignorant fool.
As such, it would be a waste of your time for me to engage you.
If you are wrong, I would be wasting my time.
Thank you for your reply.
Toodles.
There are two kinds of people in the sciences. Those who take other people’s word on things. And scientists.
OK, I am already unable to stick to my guns here.
“There are two kinds of people in the sciences. Those who take other people’s word on things. And scientists.”
Assuming this is true, what would you call a person who took your word on the assertions you are making?
As you suggests, they would be equally shortsighted to take my word. Thus the most correct path would involve being open minded. The correct path would be to look for further insight. Right?
“If you are right, then you are the smartest person in the world and everyone else is a ignorant fool.”
I changed my mind.
indrdev200 is the smartest person alive.
Bravo!
“The world is full of science groupies like yourself”
I wish!
Even insults don’t snap you out of your delusion. You believe because that is what believers do.
The purpose of this little exercise is to illustrate the power of water vapor in controlling the climate’s heat load.
For this example 350 W/m2 is the approximate heat flux at ToA.
A watt is a power unit, energy over time, and equals 3.4 Btu/h.
In 24 hours the entire atmospheric volume will see this example heat flux and accumulate x.xx Btus.
For dry air to absorb this heat would require a temperature increase of 1.34 F.
The evaporation of water into vapor at 950 Btu/lb without any increase in temperature, i.e. isothermal, would increase the atmospheric water content by about 14%, i.e more clouds, more albedo, less heat.
It’s the H2O thermostat that controls the greenhouse, not CO2. It’s the H2O thermostat that controls the simplistic blanket analogy as well.
Heat Input, W/m2 350
Btu/h per W, Btu/h 3.4
Heat Input, (Btu/h)/m2 1,190.0
Earth Cross Sectional Area, m2 1.28E+14
Time, h 24.0
Heat Input over 24 Hours, Btu 3.64E+18
Atmospheric Dry Air, lb 1.13E+19
Dry Air Heat Capacity, Btu/lb-F 0.24
Dry Air Temp. Rise for 24 Hours, F 1.34
Water Vapor Heat Capacity, Btu/lb 950
Water Vapor Increment, lb 3.83E+15
Water Vapor in Atmosphere, lb 2.80E+16
Incremental Water Vapor, % 13.70%
Miatello explains it with calculus.
http://principia-scientific.org/publications/PSI_Miatello_Refutation_GHE.pdf
http://www.writerbeat.com/articles/3713-CO2-Feedback-Loop
Thank you Dr. Ball.
I recently have made comments which raised many of these same issues which you discuss here. I am right on board with your lines of reasoning, observations and conclusions.
How on earth did the cartoon versions of reality used by the IPCC and the GCMs gain any foothold at all, let alone the stranglehold it has achieved on so much of scientific investigation?
“[Cut the cursing. .mod]”
Yes, I know. And I apologize. But when people refuse to think sometimes that is the only way to get through to them. Regards, Jim McGinn