A big (goose) step backwards

Dr Tim Ball taking a passage out of Mein Kampf as an illustration of the theory of how a Big Lie can be propagated very successfully throughout society may have been inadvisable but it was certainly not irrelevant or misguided. The use of this passage by Dr. Ball does not directly compare climate scientists with Nazis – the suggestion is plainly absurd. I do not rule out the possibility that, given that Dr. Ball and other sceptics have, for years been directly and maliciously associated with Holocaust deniers by the climate catastrophists working in science, politics and the media, his choice of example here was motivated just a little by resentment and mischief, but that does not render it any less appropriate. We are not talking about Nazism, we are talking about Hitler’s theories on how society can be duped into believing a massive untruth.
Alas, I do not believe that there will be any really meaningful and lasting reconciliation between climate scientists/CAGW advocates and sceptics until such time as the former stop pretending that the evidence for post industrial man-made global warming is “overwhelming” or that it is accepted by the “overwhelming majority” of scientists, therefore is not open to serious doubt or questioning. This is not the case, yet politicians and green groups and renewables industries bigwigs continue to push hard the urgent mitigation route, even though it has proven to be impractical, often ineffective, and economically and socially damaging.

I believe in civil discussion. Let’s talk about the science and politics, but leave out ad hominem, criticising people, talking about opponent’s motives, calling names, and so on. There is a saying that the player of the Nazi-card loses the game.
In less polarized atmosphere it is easier for them to get closer to us. I don’t require full surrender. Just doing the science as it should, fact and evidence based.

Jburrell is totally right. Betts is virtually absent & Edwards makes vacuous comments on this thread. Its plain that its more than their next grant application is worth for them to make any meaningful contribution here. Keep up the good work Dr Ball – I find nothing offensive in your post.

Tim Ball is no better than Lewandsky.
I don’t bother to read any of the articles where person X tries to psychoanlyse the motives about person or group Y.
There is no science involved, just gobbledegook.
I want science based stuff, even i I don’t completely understand the deep mathematical aspects portrayed.
Let the sociologists and such like go fight it out somewhere else.
Mick

While almost everyone here is well-meaning or at least has some understandable axe to grind, it seems to me that a missing concept is causing much misunderstanding and some communication breakdown.
Not all bad (or good, come to that) things that happen in society can be attributed to individuals. In fact powerful runaway cultures kinda sweep individuals along. There is a very real sense in which the culture has an agenda of it’s own, which does not belong to any of the individuals within it. While this agenda is certainly not senitent, nor even agential, it is no less powerful for that. This is not intuitive, BUT explains stumbling blocks like those exposed here. In various historically dire regimes, the vast majority of supporters, frequently including much of the elite, passionately believe they are right and on the side of good (at least until it is too late and fear takes over instead). This is true for the latest cultural belief in the certainty of catastrophe, namely CAGW. Most of those in the Consensus, including most of the climate scientists, are not bad but believers. Misinformation about the scientific level of certainty in catastrophe has gripped their minds (and those of much of society too), causing rampant bias within their science, which causes still stronger belief in a feedback loop. It is well known that most folks caught up in such cultures can be both well-intentioned and genuinely puzzled about challenges, and *not* bad people. Even those involved in emotive campaigning or propagandising will in general be of this type, they are are not knowingly doing anything wrong; quite the reverse, they feel they are fighting inaction and even in some cases, evil!
SO… it has for decades been well-researched that perfectly well-meaning folks can be part of a negative culture, perhaps very negative. The cultural agenda owns them, not vice versa; it’s naive at best to accuse individuals of a big list of injustices as though the reverse is true. In part the law defends against this effect, and ‘the cultural defence’ in law does *not* excuse the influenced from responsibility for their own actions (I agree!). BUT most actions promoting the culture will be inside the law (and in any case a powerful culture will alter the law in its favour), and most individuals will be a tiny subclause somwhere on the list, which list they are themselves also blind to. The point here is fight the culture, NOT the *well-meaning* individuals inside it, who are the best allies in the fight one could hope for; eroding from the inside is a great tactic.
Before folks say ‘this is not logical’ or ‘why don’t they realise?’, who here is caught up in NO such culture of any kind? Not me. Religion, say? Or nationalism? Or for some the more passionate wings of left-right politics? Whatever. Because cultural bias is domain orientated, one can be perfectly logical in such one domain, and yet blind (or at least misty) to logic in another.
I think Dr Ball attempted to point out (in an unfortunately inflationary manner) something along the lines of this cultural runaway. Well I make cultural comparisons to highlight CAGW characteristics too. But I feel Anthony is dead right; if we don’t enage, if those on either side continue to use inflationary language or inflationary comparisons, this reinforces the polarization that will accelerate the runaway culture of catastrophe still more! Attempting to brake the culture with science and common sense (easily the skeptics’ best tactic so far), starve it of emotional fuel, and denude its boundaries by tunneling through the barbed wire to the more reasonable influenced, these will all help. CAGW is already getting to the point where for some, fear is already a partial motivator, though the main drive is still from the *honest* and freely given passion of millions. This is a dangerous time; if fear takes over, then things will get much much worse, and polarization can only drive up both misunderstanding and fear.

TAMSIN i’m not the slightest bit interested in what you think Tim Ball meant or didnt mean with his article . I am interested in the fact that you dip your fingers in my wage packet each month [without my consent] before i get my hands on whats left of my hard earned. So next time you help write an article on this site at least try to justify why you need my money to fund your work and life style. Tell us how much better your climate models are now compared to reality.