Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
So once again, I have donned my Don Quixote armor and continued my quest for a ~11-year sunspot-related solar signal in some surface weather dataset. My plan for the quest has been simple. It is based on the fact that all of the phenomena commonly credited with affecting the temperature, such as cosmic rays, the solar wind, changes in heliomagnetism, changes in extreme ultraviolet (EUV), or changes in total solar irradiation (TSI), all vary in phase with the sunspots. As a result, if there is no sunspot cycle visible in the terrestrial surface weather datasets, then we can assume that none of those phenomena are affecting the dataset.
To date I’ve looked for an 11-year cycle in local sea level datasets, river flow datasets, beryllium datasets, global surface temperatures, lower tropospheric temperatures, global sea levels, Nile River levels, and a bunch more surface datasets. I have looked at literally dozens of measures of the weather, and I’ve found … well … nothing.
Now, does this mean that the sunspot cycles have no effect on the weather? Absolutely not, you can’t prove a negative in any case. It just means, I haven’t found the evidence to support the claims that some weather phenomena somewhere follows the sunspots. It may still be there, and so I continue looking.
I freely admit that I entered upon this quest with a preconception of what I’d find … but not the preconception I’m often accused of having. What many people may not realize is that I thought this quest would be easy. I believed that the evidence of a sunspot-climate connection wouldn’t be hard to find. Back in 2008 I wrote:
There are strong suggestions that cloud cover is influenced by the 22-year solar Hale magnetic cycle.
And given the number of places I’d read the claim that sunspots influence the climate, I figured it would be no problem to find surface weather datasets that showed some correlation with the 11 or the 22-year sunspot cycle. But to my great surprise, I’ve not been able to come up with a single surface weather dataset of any kind which shows such effects.
In this quest, I have relied mostly on a couple of methods to determine if the sunspot cycles are present. One is the cross-correlation analysis. This shows how well correlated two time series are at a variety of time lags. It helps in distinguishing real from random results—for example, if the correlations are as great for sunspots lagging the climate as they are for sunspots leading the climate, you’ve got problems.
Note that there is an inherent problem when looking for correlations with a signal like sunspots, which has a strong cyclical nature and high autocorrelation. This is that you will get what look like real correlations when you correlate sunspots with a wide range of random data. In addition, again because of the strong cyclical nature of sunspots, whatever correlations you find you’ll also find around eleven years later. As a result, you have to include an adjustment for autocorrelation when you calculate the statistical significance of your results, or you need to do a Monte Carlo analysis of the question.
The other method that I rely on is the periodogram. This is an analysis of the underlying cycles in the data itself. For example, here are the sunspots since 1749:
Figure 1. Monthly sunspots since 1749. Pre-1947 values have been increased by 20% to bring them into line with the modern counts, as has been repeated discussed here at WUWT. It makes little difference for the analysis.
And here is the periodogram of the sunspots shown above:
Figure 2. Periodogram of monthly sunspots. A periodogram shows the strength of each of the component cycles. The units are the percentage of the range of the data (range of individual cycle divided by range of the data. Due to popular demand, the data is windowed with a Hanning window.
Note that there is a fairly broad peak with the largest value at 11.2 years, and a secondary narrow peak at 10 years. So if we find these kinds of signals in any surface weather dataset, that would be good evidence that there is a connection to either the sunspots, or to some phenomenon that varies in phase with the sunspot cycle, such as cosmic rays or TSI.
With that as prologue, let me show the latest dataset I’ve been investigating. This is US station records showing the percentage of clouds. The cloud data are from 192 locations scattered around the US. As is my custom, I started out by looking at each and every one of the 192 records in the dataset. Here is a sample of ten of them:
Figure 3. Ten of the individual cloud records in the dataset.
When I looked at that, I was surprised by the trends. To be sure, the scale is different for each panel, which emphasizes the trends. But the same results are visible in the average of the dataset.
Figure 4. Average of all of the 192 cloud datasets. Unfortunately, the data ends in 1987. The data is calculated as the cumulative sum of the means of the first differences (monthly changes) of all available datasets. Note that in this case, this first-difference method shows little variation in the period 1900-1987 from a simple mean of the data (not shown).
Now this is what I call an interesting result. I would never have guessed that the cloud cover in the US was about 10% greater in the 1980s compared with the 1920s. I do find it interesting that in response to the rapid US surface temperature rise during the 1930s and 1940s, the cloud cover acted to minimize the change by increasing quite rapidly.
However, that’s just evidence in support of my hypothesis that the clouds (and other emergent phenomena) act to minimize changes in temperature. It says nothing about whether there is a solar signal there or not. To determine that, I calculated the periodogram for the average cloud percentages shown in Figure 4.
Figure 5. Periodogram, average of US station data.
As you can see, there is very little in the way of power in the range from five to twenty-five years … no sign of a solar signal.
The situation with the individual datasets is much the same. There are a variety of signals, but again nothing in the range from five to twenty-five years exceeds about 5% of the total signal. Here is a typical set of four:
Figure 6. Periodograms showing the strength of the various cycle lengths, for four individual stations.
As you can see, there is quite a bit of variation in the individual records. Some have strong annual cycles, while others have equal-sized annual and six-month cycles. And some show only a six-month cycle, with no clear annual cycle. This is interesting, because it allows us to identify those stations which have strong thermally-driven summer thunderstorms. They show strong six-month cycles.
But to return to the sunspots, none of the stations shows any significant strength in the range from five to twenty-five years, it’s all down in the weeds, and each of them is different.
So I had to conclude once again that the solar signal is simply not visible in these cloud datasets.
Once I was done looking at the solar question, I got to thinking about the fact that the ground station cloud dataset ends in 1987. I realized that the ISCCP satellite dataset started in 1983 … giving a 53-month overlap. So I decided to see what the ISCCP dataset had to say about the US clouds. Since the ISCCP dataset is gridded, it is a matter of extracting just the land data in the area covered by the US stations. I started by looking at the two datasets during the period of the overlap:
Figure 7. Overlap of the two cloud coverage datasets, one being the average of 184 ground station records (green), and one from the ISCCP satellite data (blue). In the raw form, the two are offset by only about one percent. As a result, I have rebaselined the ground station data upwards by about one percent to match the ISCCP data during the period of the overlap.
Now, I have to say that I was very impressed by the agreement between the two datasets. I had expected to find much poorer correlation. But in fact, by and large the two datasets are in surprisingly good agreement.
As a result, I think that we are justified in splicing the two datasets together, so that we can get a long-term record of the US clouds. Here is that record.
Figure 8. Spliced data, with the early data from the ground stations and the late data from the ISCCP satellite. I used the average of the two datasets during the period of the overlap.
Now, this is a fascinating graph containing lots of unanswered question. It puts the ISCCP data (black and red) into a most interesting long-term context. When looking at just the ISPPC data it seems as if the cloud coverage was falling. But in the longer context, it can be seen that this kind of variation has been going on since about 1960.
I draw no great conclusions from this, except that overall, as the US warmed post-1930, the US cloud coverage rose as well. Go figure …
One reason I’m reluctant to draw many conclusions about this graph of the clouds is a curious one. In science, it is very difficult to demonstrate causality. However, a very smart man named Granger realized that we can demonstrate a weaker form of causality, called “Granger causality”.
The essence of the idea of Granger causality is that if having historical information about phenomenon A allows us to significantly improve our predictions of phenomenon B, then A is said to “Granger-cause” B. Makes sense to me. If knowing historical cloud cover allows us to improve our predictions of temperature, then cloud cover would be said to “Granger-cause” temperature.
However, there’s an oddity of Granger causation, which is that there are not just three, but four possible states, viz:
1) Neither variable A nor variable B Granger-causes the other, or
2) Variable A Granger-causes variable B, or
3) Variable B Granger-causes variable A, or finally
4) Variable A Granger-causes variable B AND variable B Granger-causes variable A.
So … care to guess the Granger relationship between temperature and clouds? Yep, you’re right, it’s choice 4) … each one Granger-causes the other one. Clouds affect the temperature, and temperature affects the clouds. Knowing the history of either one helps us to predict the next step of the other one. It’s just another demonstration of Murphy’s Corollary, which is that “Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.” Which definitely makes it hard to draw lots of conclusions.
In any case, that’s all the fun I’m legally allowed to have in one twenty-four-hour period. So to keep the future full of interest, let me put out a request for people to send me a link to a dataset. What dataset? Why, of course, the surface weather dataset that you think most clearly shows the sunspot-related solar influence.
A few notes about the kinds of datasets I’m looking for.
First, I’m asking what you think is the very best dataset, the dataset that actually contains the clearest evidence for the solar signal. Please don’t send me links to ten datasets. I don’t have graduate students or assistants and I do have a day job pounding nails. So please, choose your best evidence to make your best case.
Note that I’m not asking for studies, I’m asking for observational data. I’m not interested in any of the hundreds of studies out there that claim to find a solar signal in some surface climate dataset, like my favorite study. That was the one that found the solar signal … in the ring widths of one single tree in Chile. Seriously, one single tree, the study is out there, and somebody sent it to me claiming it was evidence.
Here’s the issue. Every study that I’ve looked at has had serious and often horrendous problems, and I’m sick of digging through the trash looking for a diamond. In any case, no matter what the study may claim, I’m gonna have to do the analysis myself. And to do that, I don’t need the study—all I need is the link to the dataset.
Next, please provide a link to the exact dataset itself. I don’t want to guess which dataset you are referring to, or choose from among a dozen datasets on some web page, or have to google some obscure name.
Next, please no “reanalysis data” from NCAR or NCEP or anywhere. Let me explain the problem with using what is laughably called “reanalysis data” from NCAR or NCEP in any analysis of solar effects. The “reanalysis data” is not data at all. Instead, it is the output of a computer model. Now, I’m not an opponent of computer models, I’ve both written and also used lots of computer models. The problem is that the current generation of climate models are quite linear … but nature is antilinear.
Now, for some kinds of analyses this is not a big problem, but this flaw makes model output useless for some specific applications. In particular, since the model outputs are some kind of lagged linear transformation of the inputs, in general whatever you put in the front end of a climate model will be visible in the output … and downward solar radiation flux is most assuredly an input to the reanalysis models. Since the models are linear, this means that there is a very good chance that we will find a solar signal in the output of the reanalysis models, that we’ll see a sunspot-related wiggle in the so-called “reanalysis data” … but unfortunately finding that signal in the computer output means absolutely nothing about the extremely non-linear real world. So please, if it says NCEP or NCAR or “reanalysis” anywhere, don’t bother sending it.
Finally, as a radio amateur I’m well aware of the solar effect on the ionosphere. Up there where there is one molecule per cubic ohmmeter or somesuch miniscule number, and it’s not atmosphere as we know it but a plasma of ionized gases, yes, I agree that the sun has effects. However, I can find no evidence that those effects make it down to affect the weather where we live, at the surface. Might do so, but I haven’t seen it yet. This is why I’ve asked for surface datasets, because I’ve never found the claimed 11-year cycles down here at the bottom of the gravity well.
So with those exceptions, you’re free to send any of a host of surface datasets that you think have a sunspot signal—sea level, rainfall, river flow, lake levels, temperature, atmospheric pressure, river flow and many more, the choice is up to you.
Now, there is a commenter who objects strongly whenever I ask people to send me their best evidence. He claims I’m asking him to do the research that I should be doing. But all I’m asking for is a dataset—I am the person who has to do the research. The problem is, there are hundreds and hundreds of datasets out there, and my time is short. I don’t have time to analyze them all. So I’m asking for your assistance in winnowing the wheat from the chaff. If you don’t like my asking for assistance in this process, please, just ignore the post. Raising the same objections once again won’t burnish your reputation.
In addition, I see this as a chance for you guys to definitively show everyone that there actually is a sunspot-related signal that makes it down here to the surface where we live. So I invite you—bring out your best dataset. I’ve just looked at the US cloud record and found nothing … your turn.
Regarding the clouds, I walked this evening with the gorgeous ex-fiancee along the western edge of Bodega Bay. The cold front that brought us welcome rain earlier in the day was just past, and so we got to look east across the Bay at the back side of the cold front. Mostly it was kind of a wiggly stratus, an unusual formation. Out to the west, there was clear sky, and the late evening sun from behind us lit up the clouds above and the hills below. Looking at that blue, clean-washed piece of sky, I was reminded of the scientifically accurate words of the poet about clouds:
I am the daughter of Earth and Water,
And the nursling of the Sky;
I pass through the pores of the ocean and shores;
I change, but I cannot die.
For after the rain when with never a stain
The pavilion of Heaven is bare,
And the winds and sunbeams with their convex gleams
Build up the blue dome of air,
I silently laugh at my own cenotaph,
And out of the caverns of rain,
Like a child from the womb, like a ghost from the tomb,
I arise and unbuild it again.
Best regards to everyone, keep on unbuilding,
w.
MY REQUEST: If you disagree with someone (highly unlikely, I know, but work with me here), please QUOTE THE EXACT WORDS YOU DISAGREE WITH. That will let everyone know just what you think is incorrect.
MY POSITION: Note that I am NOT saying that the sun doesn’t affect the earth. It does affect the earth in a host of ways, and we can see that every dawn.
What I AM saying is that I have never found a significant sunspot-related ~11 year signal in any surface weather-related dataset. Doesn’t mean it’s not there somewhere, just means I haven’t found it yet. If you think it’s there … this is your chance to identify the dataset which contains the signal.
DATA: the ISCCP D2 cloud coverage data is here, the US ground station cloud coverage data is here, and the sunspot data (unadjusted) is here.
CATALOG: all of the ISCCP data is indexed here. Took me a while to find it, because it’s on the NOAA website.
CODE: R computer code, along with some of the collated data, is here as a zipped folder. The code is all there. However, I’d describe it as user-aggressive … and like all of my code, it’s not written to run from top to bottom. It also contains a lot of other things that don’t make it into the final report, various analyses and graphs. I believe that all of the code and functions are there to produce all of the graphics and analyses above. If not, let me know.
dont know, the ssn looks good to me –
http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad158/mobihci/average-change-us-clouds-1900-1987-rebuildssn.png
thats the wood for trees ssn over the US cloud changes
Hmmm.
48 month on temps, 12 month on Sun spots.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/sidc-ssn/mean:12/from:1850/plot/hadcrut4gl/mean:48/offset:1/scale:100
there are obviously more influences than just the one factor. eg if you look at the AMO AND the PDO between 1940 to 1970 they go from max to the min, so one could expect the cloud cover to be different with warm water availability or not. more recently the AMO is different than the PDO, maybe because of the combined effect of water in the atlantic being more affected by (not so)global warming 1980-2000 and the southern oceans not being so.
it is probable that there is more than just the ssn modulating the ocean cycles that determine ocean temps, in fact it would be ridiculous to suggest that all possible effects are accounted for when thinking about how many variables there are in our atmosphere.
Look further up under Leif’s comments for your F10.7 links that you could have easily found yourself in far less time than it took you to write your comments to me.
So, is there something missing from the data?
Example being that we just had the largest spot in some 25 years. It produced 6 X class events. 5 of the 6 produced no CME, none, zip, nada, and the other a minor one. Why?
How long does our relavent data go back relating to CME recognition and intensity as part of a flare event?
To Moshers point, what happened to the climate the 6 years following 1859’s event?
Just wondering if we are missing something.
Willis: “As a result, if there is no sunspot cycle visible in the terrestrial surface weather datasets, then we CAN assume that none of those phenomena are affecting the dataset.”
RGB : “No, we CANNOT.
All that we can state is that there is no direct univariate correlation, and since correlation is not causality, that is insufficient to justify the conclusion ; just as it would be insufficient to draw the conclusion that they are “affecting” (the cause of) observed variations in the dataset ( if there were correlation).”
Nice . We got that sorted “toot sweet”
So tilting at windmills it is. Carry on. 🙂
He was right, I overstepped, but only slightly. Once again, I’m NOT saying that there is no sunspot related effect. I’m saying that I can’t find the evidence. Since lots of folks have claimed to have found the evidence, and since many people believe such evidence exists, this is a significant finding.
w.
O.K. I will let you off just this one time 🙂
Thanks, amigo. I needed that.
w.
If sunspot cycles did affect cloud cover at all, I don’t think you’d expect the strength of that effect to be anywhere near that of yearly or seasonal cycles. In fact, it seems like you’d pretty much expect it to be well under the 5% threshold you mentioned a few times. Why didn’t you put the data through a low pass filter before looking for periods? I don’t have an opinion on whether it would change anything, but it seems like it would give you a better look at the range of periods you’re interested in.
Thanks, Nancy. The key is that people keep claiming that there is some significant effect. The problem is that when you get down to the low levels of a few percent of the signal, those small “cycles” are NOT statistically significant. You will find them in random “red-noise” data, and we have no reason to believe that they are caused by anything but chance.
So it’s not the fact that it only affects say 4% of the data that is an issue … it’s that an effect that small is not reliably distinguishable from random results.
Regards,
w.
IITM Pune published the rainfall data for 32 subdivisions [monthly, seasonal] for 1871 to 1994. You simply take the data of annual Southwest Monsoon data series of All India level and just plot 10 year averages. You get exactly 60 year cycle. Can we call this a random cycle. The same cycle is seen in global temperature, Hurricanes. We must be cautious that each cycle may not be of the same magnitude. It is also true with sunspot cycles, solar flares cycle.
Dr. S. Jeevananda Reddy
Agreed. A blocking high or a low pressure system during a stormy decade running off a storm producing Pacific ENSO scenario will slap the hell out of such tiny solar signals. So why bother. And there are plenty of solar cycles to look at and compare with ENSO conditions to see that no solar cause to ENSO effect correlation exists. And it is rather comical to see both sides of the which-tiny-cause-is-greater debate (solar versus CO2) call upon the same god of induced oceanic conditions to further their argument. Both cannot be right but both can be wrong. Buyer beware.
Dr Norman Page November 1, 2014 at 2:11 pm Edit
Dr Page, thanks for the comment.
I fear I have no trust in the 10Be data as a proxy for solar activity. I discuss the question here. The problem is, there is no sign of an 11-year cycle in the 10Be data.
I’m no happier with the 14C data as a solar proxy either. Although there is an 11-year cycle visible in the 14C data, it only represents about 5% of the swing of the 14C data. This means that 95% of the wanderings of the 14C data occur for an unknown cause, with 5% of the variation due to solar variations … sorry, but that don’t impress me much. So I place no stock in those kinds of hypothetical long-term solar reconstructions.
At the other end of the scale, the problem with looking at 60 year cycles is that our current datasets are far too short to show any cycles that long. We do have some individual datasets, see the Stockholm data above (which doesn’t show a 60-year cycle). But the global datasets are only about 150 years long, and for a 60-year cycle that’s not even three complete cycles.
And I assure you, a man would be wildly optimistic to base anything in climate on finding a mere two and a half cycles of some purported sine wave. Heck, there’s a dataset where we see five sunspot cycles that line up nicely with sea level cycles … but when we add the data before and after that time, there’s no correlation at all.
Finally, I fail to see how an eleven-year cycle is “too short” to see the solar effect. The surface changes temperature quite rapidly on daily, monthly, and annual scales. Obviously, temperature responds very quickly to short-term solar variations. Why would you then assume that eleven years is too short to see a solar effect?
w.
The problem is, there is no sign of an 11-year cycle in the 10Be data.
There is, but it is noisy. See Slide 30 of http://www.leif.org/research/Keynote-SCOSTEP-2014.pdf
The 10Be data is due to McCracken and Beer.
Dr Norman Page November 1, 2014 at 4:23 pm
The Flux measurement adjusts for deposition rate as you well know.
I don’t think that is so. Provide a link if you can. If we could adjust for deposition rate, that rate would be wonderful climate proxy and be debated all over the place. where is that debate?
Thanks, Leif. The graph compares two things, but it’s not clear at all which is what. One is presumably HMF-B calculated from 10Be … but what is the other line, labeled “B13”? It’s not clear what you are comparing.
In any case, you say there is a sign of a solar cycle in 10Be but it is “noisy”. As I pointed out above, suppose the “noise” is three-quarters of the data, and the solar effect is a quarter … since that means that three quarters of the variation in the 10Be record comes from unknown causes, I fear it doesn’t give me a warm fuzzy feeling about the accuracy of a 10Be based reconstruction.
All the best, thanks as always for your comments,
w.
The B13 is also HMF B, but derived from the geomagnetic record as described in the link.
There is general agreement that the 10Be record is contaminated by climate [and other things] as commented on by Webber et al. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1004/1004.2675.pdf
this problem becomes more severe the further back we go as we have little else to compare with.
Leif
For Flux calculation see
http://www.eawag.ch/forschung/surf/publikationen/2009/2009_berggren.pdf
“The flux is the 10Be deposition rate at the surface, and is calculated by multiplying each sample concentration with the snow accumulation of that specific year.
NGRIP 10Be data show high inter-annual variations which are superposed on wider fluctuations of an irregular nature. To some extent periods of high 10Be values correspond to grand solar activity minima, most prominently during the Maunder (1645– 1715 AD) and Dalton(1790–1830 AD) solar minima, while less distinctly during the Sporer minimum (1415–1535 AD). Since snow accumulation varies over time, the 10Be flux and concentration curves differ somewhat. The long term variations are similar in both parameters, except during parts of the Dalton and Maunder minima.”
Matching the 10Be production flux and concentration rates within and between cores and at the top of each core is very problematic. I think it may have something to do with different compaction rates and also different core relaxation rates due to differences in core handling. However as Berggren says in the quote above there is a usable relation between solar activity 10Be data and temperature when looking at longer frequencies and times longer than the 11 year cycle which does turns up sometimes however as you yourself point out.
For the Sporer Dalton and Maunder temperature minima see the NGRIP flux at Fig 1 at the Berggren link above – This is Fig 11 at
http://climatesense-norpag.blogspot.com/2014/07/climate-forecasting-methods-and-cooling.html
See also the later Be10 – temperature trend correlations in the same time series discussed in my 2:11 pm post above .
For another example correlating 10 Be and temperatures see also Steinhilber in Fig 10 C and D at my post linked above.
The snow-accumulation is computed from a model relating the thickness of the annual layers to snow-depth. This, however only work for the past ~300 years where the annual layers are clear enough, and does nothing for the 10000-yr record. So your 1000-yr variation is NOT based on actual measured flux corrected for deposition. Furthermore, there is strong evidence that the whole notation of 10Be being a reliable measure is shaky: e.g. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1004/1004.2675.pdf
“We have made other tests of the correspondence between the 10Be predictions and the ice core measurements which lead to the same conclusion, namely that other influences on the ice core measurements, as large as or larger than production changes themselves, are occurring. These influences could be climate or instrumentally based.”
Dr, Svalgaard The 10Be data is due to McCracken and Beer.
McCracken and Beer now say that not only cosmic rays but the solar activity itself is result of forcing by Jupiter, Saturn etc
“Evidence for Planetary Forcing of the Cosmic Ray Intensity and Solar Activity…”
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11207-014-0510-1
If this is serious science fine, and if it is not, are we suppose to doubt the results on 10Be etc as quoted in their previous publications?
‘Unwashed masses’ including myself, as you put it elsewhere need to know!
Leif – The 1000 year +/- periodicity comes initially from the temperature data not the 10 Be data see Figs 5 and 9 at
http://climatesense-norpag.blogspot.com/2014/07/climate-forecasting-methods-and-cooling.html
However the persistence on this periodicity during the Holocene – based on the10 Be data and in the Miocene – millions of years ago based on lake sediment sequences is well illustrated in Fig 6 in my post – taken from
Fig.6 Kern et al http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003101821200096X
I think this reference would be well worth your time for a careful read.
WMO in its 1966 manual on “climate change” discussed the length of the data required to assess the presence of cyclic variation. The authors of the report were top meteorologists from several countries — one from India Meteorological Department. They suggested minimum of two cycles. If not use other techniques like moving average or auto-correlation. I used to identify cyclic variation in the onset dates of monsoon, moving average technique. Here the filter is important — 5 or 10 year moving average, etc. Recent report by US academy of Sciences and British Royal Society presented a figure — global temperature march, 10, 30 and 60 year moving averages. With the 60-year moving average, the trend is clearly evident.
In the case of Sunspot, there is long time series [more than 400 years, with China] but in meteorological parameters it is around 15 years only.
Dr. S. Jeevananda Reddy
small correction, it is not 15 but it is 150 years.
Dr. S. Jeevananda Reddy
I think the main climate driver is the in radiation balance at the intra-tropical ocean- atmosphere interface. You don’t see generally the 11 year cycle because of the thermal inertia of the oceans . Also regional land responses are very variable because of geography – distribution of continents, elevations ,mountain ranges deserts -forests etc The main trends will be best seen in the ocean data – because we should really be looking at enthalpy which varies widely on land while SST trends approximate enthalpy trends much more uniformly.
Thus as a suggestion while the lag in driver – temperature trends may be as little as 12 years or so- I would expect OHC lag to be longer – 20 – 25years+?
This appears logical. The oceans have immensely greater energy then the atmosphere, and we are talking about small decadal changes in atmospheric
GAT, (.1 to .2 per decade) manifesting in an annual seasonal flux about twenty to forty times that, being influenced by many disparate factors with disparate signs, fluctuating on different time cycles from hourly to daily to seasonal to decadal to multiple centurion. On top of this our capacity to measure said factors and GAT responses to said disparate factors is stretched to the max, and influenced by political agendas.
The fact that the only actual atmospheric GAT change that is clearly and easily observed is of the OPPOSITE in sign to a massive input change (the January cooling of atmospheric GAT despite a plus 90 watt per square meter increase in insolation) is testimony to both the complexity of the system in looking for a consistent signal from one input, and to the great power of the oceans to modulate the timing of energy flux into earths atmosphere. ERB data indicates that despite the atmospheric cooling during this seasonal increase in insolation, the earth is gaining energy. Thus our measurement of a reduced atmospheric GAT , during this time of increased insolation, is exactly an incorrect assessment of what is actually happening to earths energy budget.
So we are measuring the wrong phenomena (atmospheric GAT) when we need to be measuring true GAT including the energy entering the oceans and modulated, regulated and collected by the oceans, and only released to the atmosphere at the interface between the oceans and atmosphere, the surface.
Only at this interface from the oceans to the atmosphere, is a clear signal in atmospheric GAT observed.
What we need to understand and measure is the energy flux that goes into the oceans, and the timing of said release to the atmosphere. Every disparate W/L of insolation entering the oceans has a different residence time, (thus a different capacity to alter the earth’s energy budget depending on the change to background) dependent on how deeply it penetrates the ocean, and where it enters the oceans, and said release timing back to the atmosphere dependent on ocean currents in that area.
As the seasonal cycle demonstrates, measuring atmospheric GAT is using a
rubber ruler to measure the wrong metric, if one wishes to determine the earths energy budget, especially when considering solar energy entering the oceans, where the lag in signal to the atmosphere has great flux.
Dr. Page, as well as the observations indicate multi decadal cycles in the oceans energy release, which may be operating within far longer cycles. (As indicated by each apparent warm period, Roman, to ME to now, possibly being reduced, indicating long term cooling)
End of rant, with the caveat of one question. Do the PDO and AMO flip on different cycle times, and could this timing be regulated by the size of the ocean basins and the shape of the continents around them?
Willis, regarding these changes to surface T. You said, “The surface changes temperature quite rapidly on daily, monthly, and annual scales.” Would it not be logical to add multi decadal scales as well? (A warm blob of water rising from several hundred meters depth, may well impact the surface GAT, but the timing of when said energy entered under the ocean surface, well away from the atmosphere, and how long it took for said energy to form, is not known.)
For more thoughts along this line please consider my post in this thread here…
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/11/01/splicing-clouds/#comment-1777170
A general comment: many people here swear to the Svensmark hypothesis that cosmic rays modulate the cloud cover. Svensmark’s ‘evidence’ was the coincident solar cycle variation of temperature and cosmic rays for some period in the past. Many of those same people seem to argue that the climate system acts a low-pass filter so that a sunspot cycle variation is not to be expected [easy to say as none is observed]. They ignore the disconnect between what they say and what they swear to. This is typical of the level of discourse one sees here.
I like option #4:
4) Variable A Granger-causes variable B AND variable B Granger-causes variable A.
===
If I may repeat a comment by Genghis on another thread that seams pertinent:
Quote:
“Yes, but it is circular logic. Clear skies > warmer temps > more wind > more evaporation > cloudy skies > cooler temps > less wind > less evaporation > clear skies, rinse and repeat. Pick whichever variable you prefer as the driver they are all equally valid.”
The figure showing sunspot cycle presents two peaks, namely one peak at 10 years [smaller] and another at 11 years [larger]. My study on solar radiation presented a principal peak at 10.5 years cycle and its multiples 21 & 42 years. Here solar radiation is a function of sunshine hours. and Sunshine hours is a function of cloud cover.
Dr. S. Jeevananda Reddy
Willis,
“It would be helpful if you could give a real-world example of a climate situation where there is a cyclically varying input which does NOT result in a cyclically varying output, but where nonetheless the input is actually affecting the output.”
= = = = = = = = =
ENSO – the chaotic capacitor:
http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jetstream/tropics/images/soi_nino34.jpg
The Murray Darling Basin covers a large area of SE Australia and floods on a regular basis even though there have been a of of flood mitigation works. It all funnels through the Murray river in SA. Not exactly cyclic but the years are 1870, 1906 (1909), 1917,1921, 1931, 1956, 1973-1975, http://www.murrayriver.com.au/about-the-murray/murray-river-timeline-1951-to-2000/, 2011. They don’t quite line up with minimums in the sunspot numbers but are close.
There is a correlation with SOI, along with droughts http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/ahead/soirain.shtml.
Perhaps a large positive SOI with a low Sunspot Number is the correlation for a large rainfall in the basin?
lsvalgaard
The climate system isn’t the low pass filter ,,, the dissipation rate of the ejecta is …
It isn’t the solar wind passing by, .. its the quantity of material already past us,
How dense, how deep, and as it continues, how long to expand outward losing density
leaving earth more exposed.
The shielding particles are of more than one solar cycle, and it requires more than one wimpy
or short peak to have an effect.
How much material, how dense, and for how long, without replenishment, the cloud of ejecta
will continue to expand outward becoming less dense, less able to intercept anything.
This “low frequency filter effect” has nothing to do with earth, it may effect earth, but it
does not require there to be an earth present.
That’s my understanding of the mechanism.
The solar wind changes all the time on short time scales and the solar cycle and even solar rotation is well observed, so the low-pass filter in not in the ‘shielding’ variables. It takes the ‘ejecta’ about a year to travel through the solar system to finally merge into the interstellar medium, so they don’t hang around long enough to filter anything longer than that in any event.
lsvalgaard
At the heliosphere …
…
The forces acting on a neutral hydrogen atom approaching the Sun are gravity and the radiation pressure. In addition, atoms are lost, mainly as a result of charge exchange with solar wind protons which converts a fast solar wind proton into a fast hydrogen atom.
….
Returning to the interstellar pick-up ions, they have an interesting fate. After entering the heliosphere initially as neutral atoms, being ionized, and then picked up, they are carried out to the termination shock. There, a small percentage are accelerated to cosmic ray energies and then propagate back into the inner heliosphere where they are observed as “anomalous cosmic rays.” This process has recently been confirmed by the observervation on AMPTE and Ulysses that anomalous cosmic rays are, indeed, singly ionized.
http://web.mit.edu/space/www/helio.review/axford.suess.html
So you assume that 100% of the material just keeps going at 400km/h and by then its
not thick enough to affect anything … and on out into interstellar space it all goes.
Well then any cosmic ray interception to be measured at all, or what ever modulation measured
would be in real time with solar wind density going past earth at that moment. or as you
say, effects lingering a year at most … And no lingering cloud of material between us and the heliopause, to the bow shock. et al
so.. singly ionized anomalous cosmic rays are spontaneous events then, and the
heliosheath is an empty void
Heh
No, Ray, that is not how it works. Once the solar wind meets the interstellar medium the wind comes to a screeching halt. The anomalous cosmic rays are such a small part of the cosmic ray flux that they don’t matter in the greater picture.
Bob Weber November 1, 2014 at 5:17 pm
Bob, I’ve given up guessing, and I’m incapable of reading your mind. There is nothing in what you wrote that would lead me to think that you were using Leif’s dataset, whatever that might be.
I note that you still haven’t provided the link to either the solar flux dataset, or to whatever temperature dataset that you think is affected by the solar flux, and I’m not going to guess. If you’re not interested enough to provide the links to your own work, I’m not interested enough to waste any time on it. I provide direct links to the data and code that I use in my work. If you are unwilling to do the same, I’m gone.
w.
Halts … and then spontaneously ceases to exist ?
No, it begins to mix with the interstellar medium and actually piles up in front of the Sun [the hydrogen wall], but is so turbulent that it loses all structure. The solar cycle modulation of cosmic rays takes place inside the solar wind ‘bubble’. The important thing tor you to grasp is that there is a lot of structure of short time scales in the solar wind and we can and do observe these.
Those cosmic rays simply say “something there” .. as in not empty .. of course particles
of that energy level are not going to be hanging around anyway, but . not all the material is that energetic
So .. where does it go after this “halt” (yeah i know it don’t come to a complete stop, its slowed
changes direction,, buffeted around .. more incoming from both sides … its eventually going to be necessarily squeezed out like a fluid pressed between two plates .. between the two pressures of the shock wave ….. so it wont be there forever .. its being pushed on, by more arrivals, so it will all escape eventually, but that also gives rise to thoughts of an accumulation of atoms, a stalled particle
that is no longer energetic isnt going to stay solitary very long. not when there are so many sexy electrons and protons wanting companionship …
Yes i know about the slow particles and fast one bunching up, creating wave like structures ..
Im saying there is a lot of material out there, at there at the halt ,, the slowest moving
portion has the most mass, and at 400km/h it takes about a year to get there
Slow it down and it will accumulate ,, sure, it wont stay around forever, and when the solar wind goes feeble the heliopause would necessarily collapse inward .. how much material … the interstellar pressure isnt going to be equal so it will eventually be lost to the “heliotail.” as they call it …
There is a signal though it is a local one. Look at the data the eleven cities run has been held in Holland. They are practically only organized during sunspot minima.
Egads, is my writing that unclear? Please give me a LINK to the “data for the eleven cities run”, I’m not going to guess what dataset you are talking about.
Thanks,
w.
Willis, Henk is referring to the Elfstedentocht ice skating ‘race’ or tour along ~200Km of frozen canals in the Netherlands. The race can (rather obviously) only be run when the canals are frozen sufficiently for skating.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfstedentocht
There may be a better dataset of dates that it was run than the Wikipedia table,
Thanks, Ian. In that case, the evidence is quite weak:

The real problem is the small size of the sample. In any case, Henk’s claim that
is definitely falsified by the facts. A bootstrap analysis of the results shows that they are not even significant at the 90% level. To do the analysis, I repeatedly selected 15 years at random from the same time interval, and looked at the average value of the sunspots on those dates. Out of 1,000 trials I get 135 which have a lower mean than the mean of the actual data. This shows that we cannot conclude anything from those dates.
w.
er .. thats 400km/s … welp the model i had in my head told me there was a cloud in the “heliosheath”,
it takes a few years for our leaving probes to cross it, one of them might have, we think.
It would be a lot of material ,,, not enough to register as heat on voyager but enough to act as a brake
if you put out a sail, the velocity change was one of the methods proposed i herd about to detect it.
under a hail of particles from both sides and with so much pressure modulation, not a a calm day
to be found, but the matter should be there …. and a lot of it .
Very enjoyable exchange, thanks.
I’m no scientist, but would Sunspot 2192 be an example worthy of investigation? Surely station records would show a weather pattern correlation of some kind. Or not.
Ok … now everybody can take a breather by relaxing and watching the Danish documentary (52 minutes in English) titled “The Cloud Mystery” about the serious research of Dr Henrik Svensmark:
Willis,
I did a regression analysis on HADCRUT 4.3 using CO2, PDO, AMO, NAO, MEI and SOI. TSI pops out of the residuals quite nicely:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1C2T0pQeiaSX1JUa0lYQmN1bVE/view
Brandon,
Excellent work. It’s pretty clear that you’ve finally put this issue to bed. I’m sure that w will color himself unimpressed and come up with even more excuses why this doesn’t pass muster. Now, if we could only show a mathematical correlation between rain and wet sidewalks.
Thanks. Not surprisingly, the response thus far has been crickets and the issue remains wide awake. Besides, everyone knows that cosmic rays cause wet sidewalks, lack of correlation proves it.
RH November 2, 2014 at 5:59 am
Oh, I see, RH. You think that something like “I refuse to answer your questions because you didn’t ask them in the RH approved way” is a legitimate scientific response.
That’s right up there with Phil Jones’s famous response, which paraphrased from memory was “Why should I give you my data, when you only want to find fault with it”? Ummm … because this is science, Phil, not a childhood game of keep-away …
Having the scientist as the gatekeeper for the code and the data is a very bad idea. Maybe the scientist hates women, so he deems all their questions as being posed in some unacceptable manner. Maybe the scientist doesn’t want to give any answers to skeptics because he thinks they are disrespectful. The possibilities for the misuse of power are endless.
Or on the other hand, maybe he quite innocently (or not so innocently) loses the data, like the UEA did. Heck, they were able to convince their Freedom of Information minder that it was justifiable to refuse to answer questions from anyone who posted at Climate Audit! Seriously, that was accepted by the FOI person as a legitimate excuse.
Clearly they were followers of the RH theory at its finest, which seems to be “It’s my data and code, and if I don’t like the way you eat your waffles, I don’t have to give it to you, so there.”
The part you seem to be missing is that if the authors had actually archived the data as used and the code as used, as I and other scientists around the world do as a matter of routine, even for blog posts, I wouldn’t have to ask a single question.
Heck, I’m lucky. I speak the author’s language. What about some kid in Africa who reads the paper after it’s translated into Adangbe, and doesn’t speak English? How is he supposed to ask, politely or not?
The main reason for archiving the data and the code as used is so that nobody has to ask the authors anything, because anybody, anywhere, at any time of the day, has access to exactly what the authors used and the information about exactly what they did. It is nothing but simple scientific transparency, without which … well, you see the results in this thread.
Best regards,
w.
Now it appears to me that there is a correlation between the “plotted data” that is depicted on these two (2) graphs, to wit:
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NASA – Figure 9. Solar irradiance (1975-2010) from composite satellite-based time series.
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/images/solar_irradiance.jpg
Source: http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2011/
——-
Dr Leif Svalgaard has this plot comparing the current cycle 24 with recent solar cycles. The prediction is that solar max via sunspot count will peak in late 2013/early 2014:
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/solar_region_count.png
Source: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/13/like-the-pause-in-surface-temperatures-the-slump-in-solar-activity-continues/
=================
Now unless the aforesaid “correlation” is just a figment of my poor eyesight and/or my imagination …. then I have to assume there is a direct correlation between the maximum quantity of Solar Irradiance (W/m2) …… and the maximum Sunspot Active Region Count
When the Solar Irradiance is “high” (W/m2 ) …. the Sunspot Active Region Count is also “high”, … and vice versa, … when the SI is “low” ….. the SARC is also “low”……. (no pun intended)
Therefore, if the plotted “data” is reasonably correct then one has to assume that “Sunspot numbers” is the driver of Solar Irradiance quantity (W/m2) ….. or ….. the quantity of the “Sunspot Active Region Count” is the “signal” that defines the Solar Irradiance quantity (W/m2).
Now, IMO, the decrease in Solar Irradiance during any given “11+- year Solar Cycle” will have little to measurable effect on earth’s climate.
But now I am reasonably sure that a 100 to 300 year “slow” decrease in the average “maximum” Solar Irradiance will have an observable and measurable effect on earth’s climate.
Thus, if a long-time decrease in Sunspot “numbers” is a “signal” that defines a long-time decrease in Solar Irradiance …… then the hearsay evidence and/or facts about the LIA can not be totally ignored or discredited, to wit:
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“1. Sunspots were rarely recorded during the second part of 17th century. [1645 to 1699]
1a. sunspots all but disappeared from the solar surface
1b. observations of aurorae were absent at the same time.
2. the lack of a solar corona was noted prior to 1715.
3. a renewal of sunspot cycles starting in about 1700.
4. The period of low sunspot activity from 1645 to 1717 is known as the “Maunder Minimum”.
5. The Little Ice Age (LIA) was a period of cooling that occurred from about 1350 to about 1850
6. NASA defines the LIA as a cold period between 1550 and 1850 ”
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And one should not ignore or discredit the effects on earth’s climate ….. that the scientific claims about the Solar Corona or the Solar Winds that are generated by said Solar Corona, to wit:
——————–
“The solar wind is a stream of plasma released from the upper atmosphere of the Sun. It consists of mostly electrons and protons with energies usually between 1.5 and 10 keV. The stream of particles varies in density, temperature, and speed over time and over solar longitude.
In the mid-1950s the British mathematician Sydney Chapman calculated the properties of a gas at such a temperature and determined it was such a superb conductor of heat that it must extend way out into space, beyond the orbit of Earth.
Observations of the Sun between 1996 and 2001 showed that emission of the slow solar wind occurred between latitudes of 30–35° around the equator during the solar minimum (the period of lowest solar activity), then expanded toward the poles as the minimum waned. By the time of the solar maximum, the poles were also emitting a slow solar wind.
The wind is considered responsible for the tails of comets, along with the Sun’s radiation. [Robin Kerrod (2000)]”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_wind
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According to the above, one can not separate the changes in earth’s climate from the changes in Solar Irradiance ….. and one can not separate the Solar Irradiance from the Solar Corona, the Solar Wind and/or the Sunspot numbers.
But one can ignore any or all of it iffen it doesn’t “turn their crank” to what pleases them.