Awww… Mike Mann's summer vacation was ruined by the 'spectre of climate change'

“Hockey stick” conjurer Michael Mann’s recent article bemoaned how, even on vacation, he couldn’t get away from his work. He traveled to Glacier National Park and was confronted with the “spectre of climate change” in the form of melting glaciers.

glacier-park-postcardClimatologist David Legates, on the other hand, points out that those glaciers have been melting since around 1860! Instead of crying about Earth’s climate, he spent his vacation much more productively: celebrating the wondrous contributions that hydrocarbon energy has made in our lives and living standards over the last 150 years. He shares his experiences in this informative commentary.

What I did on my summer vacation – another climatologist’s perspective

by Dr. David R. Legates

I recently read an article in which “hockey stick” creator and climatologist Michael Mann discussed his summer vacation. Reporting on his travels to Montana, Dr. Mann lamented the fact that glaciers in Glacier National Park are receding. He blamed this on human-caused climate change. He said he tried to get away from work but just couldn’t, because the “spectre of climate change stares you in the face as you tour the park.”

I likewise did my level best to get away from life, but was no more successful. You see, I’m a not just a climatologist. I am also a human being, and am acutely aware of the life-long struggle for survival experienced by billions of destitute, desperate people on our planet – and of the innovative, determined human spirit that stares you in the face as you peruse the daily news and tour our nation’s museums.

Dr. Mann was viewing glaciers that have actually been receding since the end of the Little Ice Age, back around 1860. He got upset because he thinks (and wants us to believe) that they have been losing ice only since 1975 or so – and it’s our fault, because carbon dioxide emissions from our cars, factories, electricity generating plants, home heating units and other sources are causing “unprecedented” global warming.

I instead visited three museums that are within a one-hour drive from my home: the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasbourg, PA, the Air Mobility Command Museum at Dover Air Force Base in Dover, Delaware, and the Chesapeake-Delaware Canal Museum in Chesapeake City, Maryland.

What I saw underscored how far we Americans have come since the Civil War and Industrial Revolution, in large part because of fossil fuel-driven technology – and how far billions of less fortunate people worldwide still have to go, to achieve a standard of living, health and welfare close to what we enjoy. Unfortunately, and unforgivably, they are being held back by policies that elevate misplaced concern about hydrocarbon energy and “dangerous manmade climate change” above the needs of people.

At the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania you see the impacts the railway had on building this great nation. From simple steam engines that could carry just two people, to huge steam locomotives that connected our country’s two far-flung shores, to the diesel and electric locomotives that built the industrial backbone of this country, the ingenuity of the last 150-plus years sits quietly on display as an historical reminder of our legacy.

The Air Mobility Command Museum is a testimony not just to aviation, but to air cargo transportation.  The amazing machines, and the intrepid men and women who flew them, helped us move equipment and supplies to support troops, provide assistance in areas ravaged by natural disasters or human catastrophes, and keep freedom alive in places like West Berlin during the 1948-49 airlift.

They also stand as marvelous monuments to human innovation – and a testament to our ability and determination to support freedom and democracy, and lend assistance when needed to the plight of those less fortunate, even when located in the far reaches of our planet.

Connecting two important waterways, the Chesapeake-Delaware Canal is truly a miracle of human entrepreneurship. Originally dug by hand, the fourteen-mile-long canal connects the Chesapeake and Delaware Bays, reducing the shipping distance from Baltimore to Philadelphia by nearly 300 miles.

Eventually, the canal was deepened and its locks removed, to allow goods to be shipped directly by ocean-going vessels without having to offload them to a turnpike, or later the railway. This greatly increased the region’s economic viability and encouraged development of the mid-Atlantic area.

But as I looked these monuments, I did so with sadness. This ingenuity was brought about by forward-looking men and women who used their energies to develop machines and enhance their efficiency, with the ultimate goal of helping humankind.

Today, however, there are those who see this effort as wrong and (dare I say it?) even evil. They want to restrict energy and its availability, and thereby limit our ingenuity, innovation and progress by draining the very lifeblood that made these earlier developments possible.  Without coal and oil, there would have been no railroads and no cargo transportation, either by air or by sea.

Democracy would likely have been but a distant memory in most of Europe and Southeast Asia – or maybe not even a memory at all.  The United States would not have developed as it did, and it certainly would not be the world’s leader in innovative thinking that it is today.  It is quite likely that we would not be far removed from the conditions in which Africa currently finds itself.

These three museums only offer a small glimpse at the myriad of marvels produced by human ingenuity, and the role that hydrocarbon energy has played in them since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution. The development of inexpensive energy led to phenomenal, previously unheard of increases in industrial output and worker efficiency, in wages and free time, in living standards and human health and welfare.

They also provided us with the weekend and vacation time, and the physical wherewithal, to experience the wonders of God’s creation — as well as the ability to attend to environmental stewardship.

It is all these opportunities that people in undeveloped and under-developed countries wish to emulate. But for that to happen, we must help keep the cost of energy low and shun policies and practices that make it expensive and unreliable. If we make energy so expensive that only the rich can afford it, the poor and the vulnerable will be denied access, and will be condemned to nasty, brutal and short lives marked by squalor, deprivation, starvation and disease.

I find it immoral to suggest that the abject poverty, disease and malnutrition that still afflict much of the world must be ignored, while we concern ourselves with “saving the planet from global warming.”

Are national park glaciers – whose existence and demise are affected primarily by the same natural forces that repeatedly spawned and melted mile-high, continent-wide Pleistocene ice fields – more important than the more unfortunate inhabitants of our planet? Assuming, of course, that by addressing greenhouse gas emissions we can positively alter the planet’s climate, or that we can know what climate is optimal.

It is ironic that it is our affluence – created by our technological innovations and use of hydrocarbons – which has allowed us to become environmentally conscious. When people are in dire need of food, clothing, shelter and other basic necessities of life, they cannot be concerned with environmental issues. To cite just one example of thousands, because the people of India and Bangladesh are so poor, the Ganges River serves as both their source of drinking water and their cesspool for untreated sewage. Their poverty prevents them from focusing on even the most basic environmental concerns.

Moreover, freedom and energy availability go hand-in-hand. Oppression thrives when subjects are kept poor and deprived of technological advancements. When people have the time and ability to travel and communicate, to be innovative, and to organize to produce a better way of life or fight a common enemy – freedom grows. Inexpensive energy is the key to ending both poverty and oppression.

More than two million people will visit Glacier National Park this year, to marvel at nature. I wonder how they would have gotten there … or whether they would have had the time to do so … if it were not for the transportation innovations that resulted from hydrocarbon fuels.

I would encourage them to visit these museums – or museums like them – to see what humans have built, and ponder what our future will likely be if backward-thinking policies cause their legacy to vanish. May they marvel at the wonders of nature, and perhaps lament the loss of glaciers. But may they also lament the loss of life caused by too little use of fossil fuels, not by too much of such life-enhancing fuels.

__________

David R. Legates, PhD, CCM, is a Professor of Climatology at the University of Delaware in Newark, Delaware, USA.

h/t to Paul Driessen

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Dave

New flash, Mr. Mann. The glaciers in Glacier National Park have been melting for a lot longer than the time humans have been using fossil fuels. Might I suggest a Geology 101 course. If you have the acumen to pass that, perhaps you could try Geomorphology.

Benson

USGS says they reached their maximum size around 1850, when forest clearing and burning was at its heyday: http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/research/glacier_retreat.htm
And I don’t buy the false dichotomy Dr. Legates espouses. Rich countries shifting towards renewables does not mean poor countries have to stop developing, and in fact rich countries can develop technologies that help the poor countries follow a more sustainable development path, learning from past mistakes.

thegriss

Coal fired power is the most sustainable form of power we currently have …
….because it feeds the world’s biosphere, releasing that building block of all life on Earth, CO2, from sequestered carbon deposits.

latecommer2014

Maybe in another couple decades our ability to use solar will be advanced enough to provide some electricity to the third world…. Until then it is extremely immoral to deny funding of fossicle fuel powered energy to those who need it, as banks have done. The false dichotomy is your own since many thousands more will needlessly die prematurely due, primarily, to their inability to produce energy. To say that we can use our present green techknowledgy to help them now is hopelessly naive.

Rich countries shifting towards renewables does not mean poor countries have to stop developing“. That’s not how it works. http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/world-bank-decides-stop-financing-coal-fired-power-plants Obama has pulled the plug on cheap effective energy supply for poor countries, while coal usage worldwide, ie. in developed and developing countries, continues to grow.

johnmarshall

Developing countries have been refused loans by the World Bank for the funds to build coal fired power stations. This happened to Malawi where there is plenty of coal. They continue to struggle.

Nick in Vancouver

Don’t worry the eeevil World (American) Bank has stopped funding fossil fuel plants but the freeedom loving Communist Party of the Peoples Republic of China is ready with the dollars. Any African nation that is willing to give up a little farm land and provide minor access to mineral resources can get a new Ultra- Supercritical Boiler http://www.power-technology.com/projects/yuhuancoal/

Mickey Reno

The USGS is cherry picking if they say the maximum was around 1850. They’re only considering the Holocene. Was Puget Sound being scoured by glaciers in 1850? The Cordilleran ice sheet covered much more area 25,000 years ago, and many times previous to that. God I hate it when government bureaucrats and government funded sucklings ignore geology when talking about climate change.

He might be more suited to Theology. Climate Theology, that is … all glaciers melt, it’s what they do isn’t it, otherwise the whole of the USA would be covered still from the Ice Age.

s.tracton@hotmail.com

Guess the glaciers didn’t melt during the MWP.
..
Must be warmer now then during the MWP

Richard T

The receding Mendenhall glacier has exposed the remains of a thousand year old forest. Warmer temps during the MWP??

DirkH

“Guess the glaciers didn’t melt during the MWP.
..
Must be warmer now then during the MWP”
Because glaciers never move an inch, especially downhill.

s.tracton@hotmail.com

Carbon date the tree stumps at the edge of the melting glaciers in Glacier National Park, then get back to me …

DirkH

“Carbon date the tree stumps at the edge of the melting glaciers in Glacier National Park, then get back to me …”
You haven’t understood. Your idiotic statement would only make any sense if glaciers didn’t move. I was not referring to any trees.

Chip Javert

S.tracton, I’m sitting here waiting for what I’m sure will be your highly educated response to Richard T’s statement…
Waiting…
Still waiting…
Observation: WUWT is a tough place to just spout crap – too many people here really do know what they’re talking about.

s.tracton@hotmail.com

Carbon date the tree stumps at the edge of the melting glaciers in Glacier National Park, then get back to me.
See if you can find any < 3000 years old.

s.tracton
At issue is whether it was warmer in the past than after the industrial revolution.
The exposed tree stumps demonstrate that before the industrial revolution there was a period warmer than now. Whether that warmer period was 1,000 years ago or 3,000 years ago does not alter the fact that there was a period when it was warmer than now before the industrial revolution..
You introduced the irrelevance of WHEN before the industrial revolution it was warmer than now by raising the MWP which everyone assumed to be the Medieval Warm Period 1,000 years ago. But you are not disputing that it was warmer than now 3,000 years ago in the Minoan Warm Period which is also an MWP.
Richard

SandyInLimousin

Does this help, not Glacier National Park but high Andes.
Evidence of a high-Andean, mid-Holocene plant community: An ancient DNA analysis of glacially preserved remains
Methods: We examined remains between 4576 and 5222 yr old, using PCR amplification, cloning, and sequencing of a fragment of the chloroplast trnL intron. We then matched these sequences to sequences in GenBank.
Key results: We found evidence of at least five taxa characteristic of wetlands, which occur primarily at lower elevations in the region today.
Conclusions: A diverse community most likely existed at these locations the last time they were ice-free and thus has the potential to reestablish with time. This is the first genetic analysis of vegetation uncovered by receding glacial ice, and it may become one of many as ancient plant materials are newly uncovered in a changing climate.

Read more here:=
http://www.amjbot.org/content/97/9/1579.full

Chuck L

I wonder what measures Mann has taken personally, to reduce his “carbon footprint.” Like all sneering arrogant hypocritical human-hating elitists, he wants to inflict his “return to the Stone Age” energy philosophy on the rest of us while exempting himself and the other members of the Green Nomenklatura.

Robert of Ottawa

Stone age humans had fire. These eco-bleeps think fire is bad. Clearly they want us to devolve to a state before we had fire. Did we have language then? Were we human then? When was the fall from eco-Eden? When we got fire? Language? Walked upright? Dropped from the trees? Ceased being amoeba?
Sorry for the rant, but I feel strongly about this.

High Treason

You are quite right-the eco-loonies want to return to the Neolithic Era when the planet supported between 1 and 10 million humans, not 7 billion. Funny how they do not tell us their “Utopia” entails we become 99.9% human-free.

Well just so long as they are the “right” people.

Dave VanArsdale

Indeed, the very White House now times its video releases to coincide with Mr. Mann’s musings.

Mike

We were there last week, also. The glaciers are little different visibly them what they were 2001 and 1991, when we visited the park.
I’m glad I didn’t know Mann was there. It might have adversely affected my day.

Richie D

We were there in early August. There is a picture of the glacier above Hidden Lake taken in 1930 — hard to see much difference in extent of glacier then versus now.

David Larsen

The Wisonsononion Glacier [melted] from SE WI to above the arctic circle over 15 THOUSAND years ago. Duh!

Billy Liar

Wisonsononion Duh indeed!
[Butter Wisonsononion than Wisconsion bison’s opinions on onions …. .mod]

Steve P

Actually, The Wisconsin Glacial Episode (Wisconsinan glaciation) reached its maximum southern extent in the (current) states of Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois “…approximately 25,000–21,000 years ago” (Wikipedia)
http://geophysics.ou.edu/geol1114/notes/glaciers/moraines.jpg

Steve P

Credit for map:
http://geophysics.ou.edu/geol1114/
Dr. Judson L. Ahern
[Thank you. .mod]

My Wisonsin dairy farm is smack dab in the middle of that little grey driftless area. On purpose. We are not flat! Never flattened by the previous glaciations either. Figures a good place to be…

trafamadore

It’s a matter of rates, I guess. Some of the glaciers in the cascades that I remember are now snow fields. They don’t move anymore. So maybe they were retreating, but now it’s dramatic. Our grandchildren won’t see them as glaciers. I guess that’s okay with all you.

Michael Wassil

Yes! I’d be very happy to see every last bit of ice melt. Unfortunately, we’re still in the Pleistocene and it’s not going to happen. Instead of bemoaning the coming and going of ice, you ought to thank your lucky stars you lived during an interglacial and not a max. If you want to experience what you’re complaining about go visit Antarctica. The chances of your grandchildren experiencing ice are far greater than not.

Anarchist Hate Machine

Exactly, I’d be very happy if we lived in a climate like the early eocene. No ice from pole to pole. But that doesn’t look very likely according to mounting evidence.

Keith Willshaw

Being OK is irrelevant. Climate changes and ice fields come and go without asking anyone’s opinion. Fact is retreating glaciers in Europe and Greenland are revealing villages buried when the glaciers advanced. The people who lived there were not given a choice, The lucky ones became climate refugees the unlucky ones died.

bonanzapilot

Aren’t both the lucky and the unlucky all dead by now? 😉

cnxtim

HEAR HEAR!
All mankind would be infinitely better off if we concentrated on furthering the achievements of the giant minds and productive hands of men and women from our remarkable history – rather than listen to the ravings of low-life depressive maniacs like MM. The real irony is that some fools pay him to continue with those useless ramblings.
Philosophers, Artists, Engineers and Scientists have take us from the Stone Age to the society we enjoy now.
What we do need is more of our genuine heroes fixing the real problems like sanitation, clean water and housing for the more disadvantaged countries.
This diabolical waste of useful funds on chasing phantom ‘bogeymen’ must be stopped NOW!

observa

And in my neck of the woods at Hallett Cove in South Australia-
http://www.sa.gsa.org.au/Brochures/HallettCoveBrochure.pdf
“During the Recent ice age about 20 000 years ago,
sea level was about 130 metres lower than today
and South Australia’s coastline was about 150
kilometres south of where Victor Harbor now is.
The ice cap started to melt about 15 000 years ago.
Sea level began to rise and reached its present level
about 6000–7000 years ago.”
Obviously a result of all those aboriginal cooking fires and bush burnoffs to flush out marsupial game
No doubt the usual suspects at The Guardian are choking on their imported fair trade coffee over our Prime Minister’s recent observations-
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/29/tony-abbott-says-first-fleet-arrival-is-the-defining-moment-in-australian-history

I am in Brissie. I keep pointing out to our local Watermelons that 16,000 years ago you could walk from Geelong to Hobart, and people indeed did. Then Bass Strait happened. I don’t think a LOT of Toyota Hiluxs’ were on the roads at the time. Bass Strait is 50-70m deep (hasn’t changed much at all for 7,000 years) and throwing a bucket load of CO2 at the waves will just get you wet and cold!

Robert of Ottawa

Bonza mate. From a Pom.

Eric Barnes

I’m guessing the Mann the Maroon didn’t visit in 2011 for obvious reasons.
http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/glacier-s-going-to-the-sun-road-to-open-july/article_a91704e2-a909-11e0-ae30-001cc4c03286.html
I was fortunate enough to be treated to a lecture on the crown of the continent later that year.
http://www.nps.gov/glac/naturescience/ccrlc.htm
The lecturer was a bit dis-heartened in the global warming section of his presentation because they were unable to measure how much the glaciers had receded that summer because the snow made the glaciers inaccessible. I was able to internalize my laughter (just barely)..

Siberian_husky

Legates is a signatory of the Cornwall Alliance for the Stewardship of Creation’s “An Evangelical Declaration on Global Warming”.[9]
The declaration states:
“We believe Earth and its ecosystems — created by God’s intelligent design and infinite power and sustained by His faithful providence — are robust, resilient, self-regulating, and self-correcting, admirably suited for human flourishing, and displaying His glory. Earth’s climate system is no exception.”
Says it all.

s.tracton@hotmail.com

Excellent point .
Significant too.

Udar

And the significance being?

kenw

And the point is?

Hear, hear.
This greatness was created for us, given to our care. But as with the Parable of the talents, we know we are to put it to good use, and make it prosperous, profitable. We were never meant to preserve it as we found it.
And it is manifestly obviously that no matter how great we think we are, before this greatness we are hardly noticed. It is beyond our capacity to truly harm this planet. Our magnificent advanced civilization can be wiped out with a single hiccup from the Sun. A single stray asteroid can do more damage in ten minutes than we could in ten centuries.
Says it all, indeed.
Good find. Have a jerky strip.

latecommer2014

Amen

Isaac Newton had similar religious beliefs regarding “intelligent design”, dabbled in occultism and alchemy, and held private religious views that if had been made public, would have branded him a heretic (eg he rejected the concept of the trinity).
His physics turned out to be pretty darned good though.

asybot

There was this one thing that was said as well. ” Go forth and multiply ” We are doing that but I hope it is for the betterment. The Mann’s of this world , as was stated earlier, seem to want to go in the opposite direction.

Bob Kutz

I guess you guys really better not read what the illustrious John Kerry has said about climate change.
Oh, btw; did you know he won three purple hearts?
There are believers in a higher power on both sides of this argument and that alone disqualifies no-one.
Ad-hominems are not science.

nc

Me thinks Mann commented to deduct his vacation.

MartinR

Quote of the day

hunter

+1

Of course. +2 hehe

bonanzapilot

Why didn’t I think of that!

Robert of Ottawa

I agree with you. I, too, find it immoral that fat cat western enviromentalists (sic) are determined to keep Africa poor for the benefit of their own piety. It is a pernicious colonialism. (hey, throw their own ideological garbage back in their face)

Katherine

Rather hard to get away from Climate Change at Glacier National Park. When I was there in 2004 all the NPS informational signs had some mention of how much the glaciers had receded since the old photos include in the signs were taken. And those signs were rather faded with age and sun exposure.

Michael Wassil

My guess is there’s no glacier in North America south of 60, with the possible exception of the Columbia Ice Field in Banff/Jaspar, that predates the LIA. We’re still below the global temps of the MWP, so the glacial remnants may not melt away completely before the next cooling period. And that might be upon us already.

Harold

Mt. Rainier has glaciers. Lots.

I wonder if Mr. Mann even knows or cares about this – my CAPS – Ref. sorry – Wackapedia :
Going-to-the-Sun Road is the only road that crosses Glacier National Park in Montana, USA, going over the Continental Divide at Logan Pass. It was completed in 1932. …
…The road is one of the most difficult roads in North America to snowplow in the spring. Up to 80 feet (24 m) of snow can lie on top of Logan Pass, and more just east of the pass where the deepest snowfield has long been referred to as Big Drift. The road takes about ten weeks to plow, even with equipment that can move 4000 tons of snow in an hour. The snowplow crew can clear as little as 500 feet (150 m) of the road per day. On the east side of the continental divide, there are few guardrails due to heavy snows and the resultant late winter avalanches that have repeatedly destroyed every protective barrier ever constructed. The road is generally open from early June to mid October, with ITS LATEST EVER OPENING ON JULY 13 2011.
So, the Going-to-the-Sun Road was opened before July 11th in 1932, 1933, 1934, 1935, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951. 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010. (I don’t think it was because of the plow technology – check the glacier park plowing photos.)
Do you think Michael Mann is at all aware of this?
Has he checked Hubbard Glacier (the largest tidewater glacier in North America) or Taku Glacier (the largest glacier in the Juneau Ice field)? Both are advancing…

2soonold2latesmart

“ITS LATEST EVER OPENING ON JULY 13 2011”
I just happened to visit there that day. Look for yourself.
http://bit.ly/1wc54Qy

Travis Casey

Great photo!

Bob Kutz

J.P. Peterson;
No, you’ve got it all wrong.
You see, advancing glaciers must be warming and melting more causing them to slip faster down the mountain.
See, scientifically both retreating AND and advancing glaciers are scientific PROOF of CAGW.
You must now know much about science.
/sarc off

Don’t be too tough on Mikey.
It’s a long bicycle ride from Penn State to Glacier National Park and back again.
No way he added to global warming so he could waste resources traveling on hydrocarbons.

DirkH

Did you know that bicycle usage causes much more Global Warming than using a car, through the extra calories the bicycle rider needs to consume, which must be provided for by agriculture, which is bad. Somebody somewhere computed it.

David

not to mention the heavy breathing involved in bike riding…you are releasing much more c02.

PiperPaul

I need to see the numbers (preferably to 5 digits after the decimal point) and calculations (or source code if software was used).

DirkH

If he cycled there the only thing it would’ve been on would’ve been a motorcycle.

James the Elder

I have a googolplex of extra calories in reserve. My pleasure to donate.

David

while the glacier there is receding. I read an article a glacier is forming in Scotland

Eric Barnes September 5, 2014 at 4:48 pm
+10,000,000,000 for showing the ironic part of the above. ;>)

Wait That was about not above but MM and his buds sorry about that ;>(

Tim

“…glaciers have been melting since around 1860!”
(it must have been those infernal steam-driven, polluting trains.)

It was those damn bison….thus the drive to eradicate them in the 1870’s-1880’s….didn’t know that Generals Sherman and Sheridan were so erudite about global warming, did you?

Harold

How were pirates doing in 1860?

trafamadore says:
Some of the glaciers in the cascades that I remember are now snow fields. They don’t move anymore. So maybe they were retreating, but now it’s dramatic. Our grandchildren won’t see them as glaciers. I guess that’s okay with all you.
Aw-w-w. Retreating glaciers. The same old scare.
Whatever you ‘remember’ means nothing. You might be right, or you might be wrong. But your mind is made up: global warming is gonna get your grandchildren. And how many glaciers would your grandchildren see, anyway? Do you take them glacier sightseeing? Do you even have grandchildren?
There are more than 160,000 glaciers on the planet right now. Some are advancing, and some are retreating. More are retreating, because the planet is naturally recovering from the Little Ice Age: one of the coldest times of the current Holocene. What else would you expect?
There will always be glaciers somewhere. OK then, what’s the next item on your list of things to worry about? Vanishing Arctic ice? Polar bears becoming extinct? Ocean “acidification”? Global methane burps? No more Arctic penguins? Or some other wild-eyed climate scare?
Relax already. There is nothing unusual happening. It’s all natural. And it’s all good.

s.tracton@hotmail.com

What principle in physics accounts for the ” naturally recovering from the Little Ice Age”

Global heat loss?
Global heat gain?
Global redistribution of stored heat?
Net gain of heat?
Should be easily explainable in terms of thermodynamics.

Steve P

Please share with us your explanation.

Michael Wassil

Steve P September 5, 2014 at 8:26 pm…
And also your explanation for the warming that ended the last glacial max. And the other cooling and warming periods of the Holocene. May as well throw in the cooling and warming that produced glacial maxima and interglacial warm periods all through the Pleistocene. I’m sure I’m not alone waiting with baited breath for your elucidation. TIA

latecommer2014

The very thing that caused the LIA, likely caused the recovery we now enjoy. Climate is driven by cycles that cause, through weather an albedo change. Polar ice is not the effect of climate change, rather the cause. If you haven’t looked at Alex Popes website, you will have another well thought out point of view to consider
http://www.Popesclimatetheory.com

CodeTech

You’d think so.
And yet, climate “scientists” have repeatedly failed to explain it, instead going off on the irrelevant and incorrect tangent regarding carbon dioxide.

Gunga Din

No need to explain anything. Mann’s hockey stick not only got rid of the Medieval Warm Period but also the Little Ice Age.
The climate and glaciers were in stasis until somebody first rubbed two sticks together.

Non Nomen

>>Relax already. There is nothing unusual happening. It’s all natural. And it’s all good.<<
And, much more important, we cannot change a single thing.
Except in a global thermonuclear war. And even then, some cockroaches will survive…

urederra

On the other hand, remove all traces of CO2 from the atmosphere and not even the cockroaches will surive.

Kenny

Global Thermonuclear War? How about a nice game of chess? (j/k)

Thanks, Dr. Legates. Very good article.

Lee L

@trafamadore
Retreating glacier does not equal catastrophic end of life nor does it even imply that human CO2 emissions are the direct cause of the retreat of the remnant.
By way of camparison…
In my kitchen, near the Pacific and near Seattle, the ice was a MILE AND ONE HALF THICK, say 12000 yrs back. Except for miniscule remnants LIKE GLACIER and COLUMBIA etc…this mile and one half THICK ice was ALL G..O…N…E by 6 thousand years ago, long before any human could have been thought to affect the climate. The miniscule ice retreat that brings you to tears for your children, is, by my estimation, also but a remnant and not worthy of your intense concern or knashing of teeth.
It happens. It HAS happened. It WILL happen, but this blip in geophysical variables is, as yet, but a blip, and is just a tiny reminder of how distorted the conclusions of very sparse data can be, espcecially when used to fuel a religious viewpoint.

hunter

[snip -over the top -mod]

hunter

lol. MIke sees things that don’t exist, but you are the boss, ;^)

JCR

I hate to say it, but the Western world seems to have lost its cultural mojo. China today was what Victorian England and post-Civil War US were. China, and to some extent India, have the drive, the vision and the belief in themselves and the future. We seem to have given up and let self-appointed busybodies govern our progress and way of life.

KevinK

I do believe that “Strasbourg” is in France, and “Strasburg” is in Pa. Very nice area around Strasburg Pa, I visited it often while a student at the Univ. of Delaware.
Of course with a modern windmill charging up your electric car you could maybe make it from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh in 20 hours or so (on a windy day). That’s a little bit better than the canals and inclined planes (yes canals and inclined planes built by the State of Pennsylvania) across the mountains of western Pa. They where replaced (made obsolete) by the Pennsylvania Railroad (a private enterprise) back in the 1850’s. And then replaced again by the airplane in the 1950’s (for passengers, hauling lots of heavy freight is still done very efficiently by railroads today).
Cheers, Kevin.

And of course, from Strasburg, Pa you can take the railroad all the way to Paradise and back. A delightful hour of steam locomotive travel.

DirkH

Ah, I hadn’t heard the term Inclined Plane for those before; only once rode one, a Funiculare (in Sizily). Big fun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstown_Inclined_Plane

Isn’t it true that glaciers tend to melt in the summer? Maybe Mann should go there in the winter so he would not be bothered by melting ice.

M Seward

I have come up with a new term that I think beautifully sums up the sub set of humanity that are true believers in CAGW (among other airheaded things).
They are a “drivelisation”, a post rational degeneration of civilisation which evolved in a pseudo scientific/academic Tower of Babel (which explains the gibberish).

Anarchist Hate Machine

Sounds good. ‘Climate driveler’ sounds like a good retort to ‘Climate denier’. Although I’m still most favoring ‘Climate delusionist’ at the moment.

KevinK

Dr.Legates wrote;
“Today, however, there are those who see this effort as wrong and (dare I say it?) even evil. They want to restrict energy and its availability, and thereby limit our ingenuity, innovation and progress by draining the very lifeblood that made these earlier developments possible.”
Indeed, and every one of them is all too willing to jump on a Boeing 747 (or an Airbus, “bus” is an appropriate choice of words IMHO) to fly off to Tahiti and “con-fab” about how “All the rest of us” are ruining the Earth and only with their wisdom might we survive.
As soon as Michael Mann stops consuming “evil fossil fuels” to fly out to Glacier National Park and “weep” about our future might I even consider taking him seriously. If “global warming” is a awful as he suggests why the h–l is he consuming fossil fuels to observe it’s effects ???? Can’t he call a buddy (OK it’s probably a given that a nerd like him has few “buddies” to call) and ask them to “take a peek at the glacier for me so I don’t have to fly out here and consume all that evil fossil fuel ????
What a soap opera….
Cheers, Kevin.

Joe Prins

Perhaps Mr. Mann could have a quick read at the “whacky” page on the Columbia ice field before Mr. Connolly decides to change things. Did they really start to melt in 1844???

Joseph Bastardi

Work???. You wouldnt last a year as an private sector meteorologist who’s livelihood depends on actually being right

SIGINT EX

(y)
Ha ha
Seems Mann is at the center of his universe for sure and even without an Obama bong.
His brain is just “wired all wrong.”
Ditto

I just want to put a good word in for GG-1, now at home in the Pa. State RR Museum in Straussburg. All electric and very efficient is GG-1, just the machinery to soothe the green soul. Although it is in black, not Pennsy green.

Non Nomen

>>To cite just one example of thousands, because the people of India and Bangladesh are so poor, the Ganges River serves as both their source of drinking water and their cesspool for untreated sewage. Their poverty prevents them from focusing on even the most basic environmental concerns.<<
Absolutely right.
As Bert Brecht said eight decades ago: Grub first, then ethics
Overpopulation can only be reduces by improving the standard of living. That requires cheap energy. Only then the scales will come into balance.

Non Nomen

>>I find it immoral to suggest that the abject poverty, disease and malnutrition that still afflict much of the world must be ignored, while we concern ourselves with “saving the planet from global warming.”<<
Couldn't agree more. And that abominable Mann still lives in the era of Bến Tre: 'It became necessary to destroy the town to save it'. But the difference is that Mann is trying to persuade the world to destroy itself by means of fighting a non-existent "AGW".

Chewer

It is truly unfortunate that many among us do not realize and appreciate what the alternative to melting ice land-based masses really means.

Mac the Knife

Dr. David R. Legates,
Excellent, Sir! Simply excellent!
Mac

The last sentence doesn’t seem to make sense – should the second “few” be “many?”

dp

If the learned boy scientist would but check the age of snout ice of the world’s glaciers he would discover an amazing fact – it’s been a while since the global climate was glacier-building friendly. Note to the boy wonder – the LIA is over. Most new glacier building ended when it ended. What we have are the eroded remains of a time long gone. Fear not for glaciers – when nature chooses they will return. There is nothing in the kit we humans have that can stop it. Your models are wrong and are junk. The hockey stick is junk. Climate science practiced by the 97% is junk. Nature decides which is right and which is an illusion. American climate science is a global embarrassment. Stop it, now. Just admit and accept you are too stupid to work in this area.

Non Nomen

dp
September 5, 2014 at 11:34 pm

Stop it, now. Just admit and accept you are too stupid to work in this area.
_________________________
May be some are Kerry-like loonies, but none of them is *that* stupid to give away such a lucrative sinecure just because he is incompetent.

Jaakko Kateenkorva

Oh, Mann. No way increasing energy price to cool the planet is winning you friends. Even the green politicians have figured it out now.

Spectres are ghosts…ghosts are not ‘real’.

HGW xx/7

Having lived in Montana, where there are plenty of eco-loons (especially around the U of M in Missoula), any mention of Glacier NP is always immediately followed up with a sad look of resignation and, “…yeah, gotta go before they’re all gone.”
It’s not enough that I hate Mann on his own, but the fact that he went acting as if he had no idea of what he’d “find”, makes me loathe him even more. He went there for that purpose alone, just like all the other bits of hikertrash who either inhabit Montana or visit.
And before you wonder what I’m talking about, unlike Wyoming, Idaho, and the Dakotas, Montana is very close to being a ‘blue’ state. If it wasn’t for Billings – their largest city and a major livestock, mining, and refinery hub – it would be a lock for the Libs.

mkelly

If you enjoyed Lake McDonald at the west side of the park, then you need to be thankful for glaciers melting. Since the glaciers are below the freeze line they were going to melt over time any way.

KNR

If Mann is that worried about the melting glaciers all he had to do was get his buddy St Gore there and thanks to the Gore affect those glaciers would be rolling down the hills before they knew it.

Admad

beng

One amazing point about railroads — private industry w/o government help spanned a continent w/tracks in the 1860s. No other country ever accomplished that so early, and then not without “government” help (trans-Siberian railroad).
Even in the 60s growing up there were still local railroad spurs reaching almost any point even in small towns w/industries lined-up along them. All privately funded and built. Nowadays, even simple state and federal highway “projects” drag on for yrs that private industries would have finished in a tiny fraction of the time.

Steve P

Yes, up until the mid 50s or so, the train station was one of the central locations in any city or town, some of which were “just a whistle stop.”
The move to the suburbs in the 50s was accompanied by promotion of motor vehicles with a reduced role for rail. In my opinion, the railroads fell victim to the typical greed & corruption fed by success, which ultimately invokes public outcry, and government involvement.
It’s much less expensive to haul freight by rail, than over the road by truck, but we clever humans have figured out a way to use the less efficient means of transport.

ferdberple

Did Dr Mann walk/bike from his residence to Glacier National Park? Because if he didn’t, he most certainly got there using a fossil fuel transportation, which is creating the very climate change he is worried about.
So why, if Dr Mann is so concerned, why does he continue to make the problem worse? No one forced him to travel. Dr Mann, if you are so concerned, take a Stay-Cation. Please stop polluting planet earth with your fossil fuel travel so those of us that care can enjoy the carbon free environment.

We seem to have given up and let self-appointed busybodies govern our progress and way of life.
==================
it started small. it started in the early 80’s with the word chairman. the day free speech ended and was replaced by politically correct speech. it was OK to say fzck, but heaven help you if you said chairman.
Once the rules of free speech went out the window, the seeds were sown. politics were shown to be superior to personal freedoms. the tyranny of the group was superior to the personal rights and freedoms earned through the struggle and deaths of thousands over centuries.
Personal freedom is the basis of western society. Yet we gave it up without a single shot being fired and replaced it with politics, in the believe that political correctness was more important than freedom. but no one stopped to ask. if we need to say chairperson instead of chairman, why don’t we say wo-person instead of woman?
AGW is simply an extensions of political correctness. It survives because so many are afraid to speak out. They fear for their jobs and their social standing, over a matter of belief. This intolerance of ideas survives only because we have placed free speech second to politics.

Richards in Vancouver

Yeah, yeah, but what about the “son” part in “person”?
I suggest “perundefinedoffspring”. It has the advantage of including heteros, gays, trannies, LSMFTs, and to whom it may concern.

Jbird

Mann might want to read the national park’s own web page which clearly states (paraphrasing) that the park is so named for the features left by glaciation rather than the glaciers themselves.
I have color slide images taken by my father of Glacier Park 62 years ago, and, guess what, it looked pretty much the same then as it does now.
As long as I’m pontificating on this subject, I would also like to add how tired I have grown of going to national parks and while attending a lecture or tour having to listen to the incessant mantra about how humans are destroying the environment and how the national parks are suffering because of it. Hence, I rarely attend these lectures now.

Climate change’s newest threat: The Gulf of Mexico is devouring Southeastern Louisiana
http://www.salon.com/2014/09/05/climate_changes_newest_threat_the_gulf_of_mexico_is_devouring_southeastern_louisiana_partner/