All Rain Is Acid Rain

Opinion; Dr. Tim Ball

The scientific theory I like best is that the rings of Saturn are composed entirely of lost airline luggage. Mike Russell

Lack of Data Is The Fundamental Problem

My first involvement with the Acid Rain scare was indirect, but added to awareness of the limitations of data and understanding of atmospheric and ocean mechanisms. It also heightened awareness of the political nature of environmental science. I knew the extents because of membership in the Canadian Committee on Climate Fluctuation and Man (CCCFM). It was part of the National Museum of Natural Sciences Project on Climate Change in Canada During the Past 20,000 years. The committee was funded jointly by the National Museum of Natural Sciences and Environment Canada. It met yearly for several years, bringing together a wide range of specialists to focus on a region, time period, or area of study. Papers were published in Syllogeus, edited by Dr C.R.Harington of the Paleobiology Division. A review of them underlines how much the IPCC sidelined progress in climatology.

My election to Chair of the CCCFM likely caused its demise. In my acceptance speech I urged people not to rush to judgment on the recent anthropogenic global warming (AGW) hypothesis. I was unaware at the time of the involvement of Environment Canada (EC) in the promotion of the hypothesis and the work of the IPCC. Gordon McBean, was Assistant Deputy Minister (ADM, second highest bureaucrat) at Environment Canada and Chaired the IPCC foundation meeting in Villach Austria in 1985. Within a few months of my election, EC withdrew funding and the Museum could not sustain it alone. One of the last projects was a detailed study of the global impact of the eruption of Mount Tambora, Indonesia in 1815. The conference proceedings were published in C.R.Harington (ed) The Year Without a Summer? World Climate in 1816. 1992, National Museum of Natural Sciences, Canadian Museum of Nature, Ottawa. Environment Canada’s actions were part of the suppression of people and data that continues to this day.

Dangers of Bureaucrats Doing Research

At the one annual conference under my chair, an Environment Canada researcher approached me to talk about a problem with the issue of Acid Rain. His dilemma underscored my argument that bureaucratic researchers are almost automatically compromised.

He was so nervous that he wouldn’t talk about it at the museum; instead, we met at the airport coffee shop. He was directed to prove US coal burning plants were causing the Acid Rain causing demise of the Quebec Maple Syrup industry. Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney was already, publicly saying they were to blame.

The problem was his research showed the decline in Maple Syrup production was not caused by Acid Rain, but two natural cyclical events. The major one was a drought. The other, was due to a period of Meridional flow (the dreaded “polar vortex”) resulting in a very early spring warming that caused the tree to start leafing, followed by leaf destroying “black” frosts. Both events cause “dieback”, that is a loss of leaves. Trees, like all vegetation, have recovery and catch-up mechanisms that drive them to seed production. They will grow new leaves and go through a shortened and reduced production cycle. This includes the amount of sap flowing.

His dilemma was how to tell his bosses at Environment Canada that evidence didn’t support the Prime Ministers accusations. He even talked of publishing under an assumed name. I pointed out that he might then be fired because he hadn’t done anything for two years, although that is no guarantee in a bureaucracy.

The solution was obvious; he had to retain his scientific integrity and present his evidence. It was not his job to determine what happened to the results. His job was to do thorough, well-documented, research. He was not paid to make political decisions. The report would go up the bureaucratic ladder until somebody, holding a job for political reasons, would put it on a shelf. Later, a joint investigation by three US and three Canadian investigators, confirmed that Acid Rain was not the cause of the decline in Maple Syrup. After climate conditions changed again, yields exceeded previous records.

There is no question that Acid Rain occurred in concentrations sufficient to destroy plants. I lived in Sudbury Ontario for a year, with its smoke stack, identified as the source of 10 percent of North American Acid Rain, and saw the effects. Town leaders were proud of the fact NASA chose the region as most like the moon for astronaut training. At that time, the philosophy was ‘the solution to pollution is dilution’, so they built the smokestacks higher to disperse the sulfur further downwind. Ironically, after scrubbers were put on the stacks, reports appeared of reduced tree growth downwind because small amounts of sulfur were a fertilizer enhancing growth. This appears to support Paracelsus’ 16th century observation that the toxicity is in the dosage.

Types of Acid Rain And Chemical Variations

Water vapor condenses on to particles called condensation nuclei (CN), most of them are clay or salt particles. The CN influences the chemical nature of the liquid water drop created. For example, salt particles change the freezing temperature so the droplet becomes super-cooled and remain liquid below the freezing point. If it is a sulfur particle, the water droplet becomes a mild sulfuric acid droplet and that became the Acid Rain of environmental focus.

Most people don’t know that all rain is acid rain, but not because of the CN. Water, whether in the form of water droplets that take an estimated 1 million to form a medium-sized raindrop, absorb CO2 from the atmosphere. Droplets have a very high ratio of surface area to volume and absorb CO2 at a known rate. The chemical formula is CO2 + H2O clip_image002 H2CO3, which results in a weak, approximately 10 percent, carbonic acid in chemical equilibrium.

How much water is there in the atmosphere and how much does it vary regionally and over time? Two comments give an idea of the lack of accurate information.

One estimate of the volume of water in the atmosphere at any one time is about 3,100 cubic miles (mi3) or 12,900 cubic kilometers (km3).

At any moment, the atmosphere contains an astounding 37.5 million billion gallons of water, in the invisible vapor phase. This is enough water to cover the entire surface of the Earth (land and ocean) with one inch of rain.

Combine these with the extremely poor precipitation data for the entire globe and you have another example of climate science being a modern equivalent of the number of angels on the head of a pin. One-person claims

…the approximate rate of washout of carbon dioxide from the Earth’s atmosphere via rainwater can be determined from the known ocean evaporation rate and from the known solubility of CO2 in distilled water as a function of temperature and CO2 partial pressure.

Fine, but what is the figure? I understand estimates of evaporation are very crude, if not essentially meaningless. In the early atmosphere/ocean computer models they simply assumed a “swamp” approach of 100 percent evaporation. The 2007 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Report says,

The spatial resolution of the coupled ocean-atmosphere models used in the IPCC assessment is generally not high enough to resolve tropical cyclones, and especially to simulate their intensity.

 

Carol Anne Clayson of Woods Hole explains the difficulties.

The air-sea interface “is typically the most turbulent part of the ocean,” Clayson said. A dizzying mix of interrelated factors—waves, winds, water temperature and salinity, bubbles and spray, solar radiation, and others—each adds a layer of complexity that occurs over wide ranges of time (seconds to seasons) and space (millimeters to miles). [See illustration above.]

“Getting observations of what’s going on at the air-sea interface is not trivial, especially in extreme conditions such as high winds,” Clayson said. “It’s also difficult to simulate the air-sea interactions, especially in extreme conditions, in laboratory experiments in a wave tank. Current computers don’t have enough computational capacity to incorporate all the processes occurring, on all the spatial and temporal scales involved, to produce realistic simulations.”

So we don’t know and can’t do anything with it. IPCC know the limits, but also know few read or understand the science reports.

 

Unfortunately, the total surface heat and water fluxes (see Supplementary Material, Figure S8.14) are not well observed.

For models to simulate accurately the seasonally varying pattern of precipitation, they must correctly simulate a number of processes (e.g., evapotranspiration, condensation, transport) that are difficult to evaluate at a global scale.

How much CO2 is absorbed in the atmosphere by moisture? How much does it vary spatially with changing temperature of the water droplets and raindrops? How much does it vary with changing air temperature and saturation vapor pressure? How much does it vary with wind speed? How do the quantities relate to human additions of CO2? All we can do is ask questions to help the public realize the inadequacy of the data and lack of understanding of the mechanisms behind IPCC claims.

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Eve
August 15, 2014 10:15 pm

Somebody measured rainfall at 4.9? During the age of the acid rain scare (middle 80’s), I moved to a place with very alkaline earth and water. The river water measured 9. The soil had a ph of 8.5. I caught rainwater in a test tube and measured it. It was 7.5. I was praying for acid rain. The river water and the soil are made akaline by road salt but what made rain falling from the sky into a plastic tube alkaline? Every year I dug sulfur into the ground and fertilized with a sulfur containing fertilizer. It helped for a year.

Gene L
August 15, 2014 10:29 pm

Pool owners must maintain that artificial lake at about 7.2 ph. I’ve had a pool in CT and than in IL over the last 30 years, and used my pool test kit to measure the ph of both the rain and ground water. A pool test strip has limited range of pH sensitivity,of between 6 and 8.5. The pH of rain is at the very low end of the scale in both locations every time I’ve measured it. The ground water from our wells however is completely different. Ground water in CT was , like the rain, very acidic. But the water in IL turns out to be quite alkiline. My own conclusion back during the “acid rain” scare was that it was “much ado about nothing”. That the pH of rain, ground water and lakes depended on other factors. But no one asked me.

richardscourtney
August 15, 2014 11:35 pm

Nick Stokes:
At August 15, 2014 at 3:13 pm you wrote

richardscourtney says: August 15, 2014 at 3:06 pm

Nick Stokes, if that information is the best you can provide

No, it’s not the best I can provide.

And at August 15, 2014 at 3:38 pm you wrote

richardscourtney says: August 15, 2014 at 3:25 pm

So, you claim you could have provided better information but you have not.

No, I feel no obligation to provide better information.

Then at August 15, 2014 at 4:32 pm you wrote

richardscourtney says: August 15, 2014 at 3:46 pm

So, you claim to have better information…

No, I have not claimed anywhere to have better information

Nick, dear boy, when trolling you should not use falsehoods because you lack an ability to be consistent with your lies.
Richard

Nick Stokes
August 15, 2014 11:54 pm

richardscourtney says: August 15, 2014 at 11:35 pm
“No, I have not claimed anywhere to have better information

Nick, dear boy, when trolling you should not use falsehoods because you lack an ability to be consistent with your lies.”

So where did I claim to have better information?
Context on that first quote, BTW:
richardscourtney says: August 15, 2014 at 3:06 pm
“Nick Stokes, if that information is the best you can provide”
No, it’s not the best I can provide. I didn’t introduce the site concerned – that was Tim Ball.

I am simply quoting and rejecting your claim. I did not offer to provide information.

August 16, 2014 12:46 am

Caleb,
Man’s hubris has always been humbled before nature. Climate Change hubris is no different. It WILL be humbled.

richardscourtney
August 16, 2014 12:57 am

Nick Stokes:
re your post at August 15, 2014 at 11:54 pm.
When in a hole then stop digging.
You said you HAD information better than that cited. (August 15, 2014 at 3:13 pm here)
You later claimed you did not say you had better information. (August 15, 2014 at 4:32 pm <a href=http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/08/15/all-rain-is-acid-rain/#comment-1710028here)
It is not possible for both of your cited statements to be true: at least one – and probably both – of them is a falsehood.
Additionally, you did not say that you would provide your better information and I ridiculed you about that (August 15, 2014 at 3:46 pm here). But that is an irrelevance you have introduced as a ‘red herring’ to distract from your falsehood.
Richard

Nick Stokes
August 16, 2014 1:07 am

richardscourtney says: August 16, 2014 at 12:57 am
“You said you HAD information better than that cited.”

Nonsense. You asked if it was the best I could provide; I said it wasn’t my information, but a site quoted by Tim Ball.

Unmentionable
August 16, 2014 2:12 am

D. Cohen says:
August 15, 2014 at 2:20 pm
Unmentionable says:
August 15, 2014 at 1:36 pm
When the politicians waffle about the ‘precautionary principle’ they don’t mean it, or we’d be taking the basic precaution of having some sort of clue before we claimed “the science is settled”.
“Not willing to be quite this cynical? Well then, consider what would happen if …”

I’m capable of Cecil B DeMille levels of cynicism Dr Cohen, it’s just that I’ve learned over the years that cynicism often leads me off the scent or impairs perceptions, so I limit its use to good healthy tirade ranting fun.
But to burrow into observation and catch nuances with their pants down you have to put the fun toys aside.

EternalOptimist
August 16, 2014 3:04 am

I learn a lot from many of the folks here. For that, I am grateful.
I never learned anything from Nick Stokes

Nick Stokes
August 16, 2014 3:23 am

EternalOptimist says: August 16, 2014 at 3:04 am
“I never learned anything from Nick Stokes”

Never say never 🙂

climatereason
Editor
August 16, 2014 4:24 am

eternal optimist
I am grateful that people such as Nick Stokes and Phil post here as they challenge the general consensus. At one time Scott Mandia and Joel Shore were also frequent visitors. All are highly intelligent people and whilst we may rarely agree with them they do present a different perspective that enables us to question our sceptical beliefs.
tonyb

BioBob
August 16, 2014 4:47 am

tonyb
Perhaps so, but Stokes too often brings to mind a famous Monty Python skit… heh

climatereason
Editor
August 16, 2014 5:25 am

biobob
There are lots of people here who are completely interchangeable with the characters in that still funny sketch!
tonyb

richard verney
August 16, 2014 5:27 am

climatereason says:
August 16, 2014 at 4:24 am
////////////////
I second that.
I for one wish to consider all issues/points of view (since I am sceptical of the case against AGW, just as I am sceptical of the case for AGW) so I always like to see contrarian comments, and accordingly, I hope that Nick et al will continue to post on a regular basis. This site will be poorer without their input, since there is no point in simply preaching to the crowd.
However, the quality of what Nick et al, has to say varies enormously. Sometimes good arguments and comments are constructed, at other times only senseless drive bys. The latter distract and over time tend to diminish the worth of the many good comments/observations that they make. The comments on this thread are a classic example of entrenchment on a non point.
IMO, if they do not have something useful to say, rather than posting a drive by, they should say nothing, keeping their muster for when they have something important, relevant and worthwhile to say.
I suspect that they would gain a lot more respect if they were to adopt such an approach. I suspect that many would then stop to consider the merits of what they are saying (and sometimes there is much merit in their comments), rather than skipping over the comment on the assumption that it is a comment by Nick and just a piece of his ‘usual rubbish’
I guess what I am saying is quality rather than quantity. And when one joins into a debate from a contrarian standpoint (ie., on this site as a believer as opposed to a sceptic), the burden of quality is higher on such a person, if only because it is necessary for them to displace the headwind which attaches to someone who appears neither objective nor impartial, but rather partisan and blinded by their belief.

climatereason
Editor
August 16, 2014 5:41 am

Richard
I agree, quality rather than quantity. Mosh would also do well to do less of his drive by shoutings as, like the others, his worth tends to come from his more detailed and thoughtful posts. The trouble is that he tends to use his smart phone to comment sometimes and that makes intelligent conversations difficult.
tonyb

starzmom
August 16, 2014 5:58 am

Bio Bob–Hubbard Brook is largely deciduous, however, much of New England covered in pine forests. I was referring to the broader region. The data I looked at a few years ago was from both the Adirondack lakes and eastern Canada.
It has been some time since I looked at the Hubbard Brook data. I noted at the time that in looking at the weekly deposition reports, which usually capture few rain events, but is easier to look at than individual events, because the record runs from 1978 on, the lowest pHs recorded had not changed over the years. Nor had the highest pHs. The averages were very close on a weekly basis. This was in a time frame where SO2 emissions from large (and not so large) sources had declined by some 90%, and NOX emissions from large sources had declined by some 50% with the requirements to install FGD scrubbers and SCR/SNCR NOX control systems on power plants. At the same time, most new cars were equipped with catalytic converters to reduce NOX emissions. Overall ambient concentrations of both have declined across the US.
The reader who commented that damage due to acid deposition after ash controls were installed on a nearby power plant is probably right that the ash served to neutralize the acid. Coal chemistry is very complex, and companies spend millions designing their pollution control systems to handle the chemistry of the precise coal they burn in a particular plant.

stevefitzpatrick
August 16, 2014 7:03 am

I honestly can’t even figure out the point of this essay. Are you suggesting that rain washes out a significant fraction of CO2 from the atmosphere? Or are you suggesting that all rain water is slightly acidic? The latter is true, but the former is demonstrably false, and that is simple to show.

Bill_W
August 16, 2014 7:15 am

“Nick Stokes says:
August 15, 2014 at 1:21 pm
“All we can do is ask questions to help the public realize the inadequacy of the data and lack of understanding of the mechanisms behind IPCC claims.”
What is the point of asking questions without trying to find out the answers?”
Nick,
My interpretation of the article as a whole and how it related to the last statement is this:
Climate science is extremely complicated and hard to study. The field is immature in many places and the data scanty in important areas. Therefore, one should not jump to conclusions and enact policies without sufficient information. By asking questions such as “why do the models overestimate warming 3-fold” or “why are climate scientists now talking so much about 60 years cycles they used to denigrate”, one can get the public to realize the 97% consensus (as advertised anyway) is nonsense and that we really don’t have much evidence that man is changing the weather, for example. Loaded dice and all that, ya know …….
The point of asking the questions in this case would be to show how little is known. This is the method of the investigative reporter or the method of the scientist before collecting additional data. Find out what the important questions are, figure out ways to test various hypotheses that address these questions, then collect the data, perform the analysis, etc.
The point was actually given at the end of the sentence. In this case, the questions are to change the way “the public” views climate science and to get them to “realize the inadequacy of the data and lack of understanding of the mechanisms behind IPCC claims.” I think this is already happening to some extent anyway. Once the public realizes the truth, they may be less likely to embrace extreme solutions. As far as the science goes, the reaction could go either way. Perhaps there will be more studies funded to address the important questions with data rather than just funding more simulations using the same old poorly performing GCMs. On the other hand, if the public decides they have been lied to and that some scientists have behaved improperly, their could be a backlash. Perhaps more research money would flow to biomedical projects instead. That might be a good thing. There is a danger to politicizing science and I hope the backlash is not too bad as I think we do need more climate research as well.
Our society still expends a lot of time and money on studying the climate, so questions will continue to be answered. I hope that they do figure out why the climate models perform so poorly and are able to understand the 60 year climate cycles better. Hopefully fewer and fewer will follow Schneider’s advice to make up scary stories (and somehow be truthful at the same time??) and the field will mature and not be so useful to politicians and political advocates.

Samuel C Cogar
August 16, 2014 8:09 am

Nick Stokes says:
August 15, 2014 at 1:48 pm
I couldn’t see where it calculates the amount of washout, but it tells you how to do it, gives the solubility tables and there are plenty of rainfall estimates there. A curious person could work it out.
————-
Not even a curious person can work out (calculate) the “answer” to a query if one (1) or more of the input factors (data) is an estimated quantity. The best they can hope for in their calculated “result” is just another “estimate of quantity”.

Kyle K
August 16, 2014 8:13 am

If rain collects CO2 from the atmosphere, would pollution by itself interfere with this collection process? Perhaps the modern rise in CO2 is caused by other factors than just CO2 emission.

Allencic
August 16, 2014 9:13 am

In other words, when it comes to really understanding what goes on with weather, clmate, the atmosphere, and the oceans “we don’t know nuthin bout nuthin.”

Samuel C Cogar
August 16, 2014 9:47 am

Dr. Tim Ball said:
Combine these with the extremely poor precipitation data for the entire globe and you have another example of climate science being a modern equivalent of the number of angels on the head of a pin. One-person claims
[quoting claim] “…the approximate rate of washout of carbon dioxide from the Earth’s atmosphere via rainwater can be determined from the known ocean evaporation rate and from the known solubility of CO2 in distilled water as a function of temperature and CO2 partial pressure.”
Fine, but what is the figure?

——————
Well now, there are several “expert” calculating individuals that know exact what that “figure” is …. but for some reason they are intent on keeping it a “secret” from everyone else.
And I can attest to the above fact of both “knowledge” and “secrecy” because those above said “experts” keep telling me that both the “bi-yearly cycling” (avg 6 ppm) and the “average yearly increase” (1 to 2 ppm) in atmospheric CO2 ppm quantities as measured and defined in/on the Mauna Loa record and/or the Keeling Curve Graph is not a function of, ….. nor has any relationship to, the ingassing/outgassing of CO2 at the interface boundary between the ocean surface and the atmosphere.
And the only way they could possibly know that their above “ingassing/outgassing” claim is a literal fact is if they also know exactly what the above stated CO2 “washout” figure is.
One can not estimate a quantity …… and then claim their estimate is a factual physical quantity.

Tim Ball
August 16, 2014 9:50 am

IPCC claim the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere determines most of the increase in temperature since ~1950. They make this claim with a certainty not justified by the severe limitations of knowledge of the total sources and sinks for CO2.
The amount of CO2 varies considerably and one variation not included, among others, is the amount of CO2 absorbed by the amount of water in the atmosphere. This must vary because the factors that determine the amount of absorption, namely ; the amount of water in the atmosphere, the temperature of the water; the temperature of the air; and the saturation vapour pressure. It is entirely possible that the amount of variation of CO2 in the atmosphere, due to these factors, equals the amount due to human addition of CO2.
“A few observations and much reasoning lead to error; many observations and a little reasoning to truth” Alexis Carrel

August 16, 2014 2:43 pm

Eve says:
August 15, 2014 at 10:15 pm
Somebody measured rainfall at 4.9? During the age of the acid rain scare (middle 80’s), I moved to a place with very alkaline earth and water. The river water measured 9. The soil had a ph of 8.5. I caught rainwater in a test tube and measured it. It was 7.5. I was praying for acid rain. The river water and the soil are made akaline by road salt but what made rain falling from the sky into a plastic tube alkaline? Every year I dug sulfur into the ground and fertilized with a sulfur containing fertilizer. It helped for a year.

=============================================================
Water is weird.
What is sometimes left out of the “acid rain” discussion is alkalinity, not to be confused with an alkaline pH. Alkalinity has to do with the water being able to resist of the water because other chemicals “using up” the H or OH before the leftover H or OH can change the pH.
Alkaline dust in the air when you took you reading may have neutralized your rain and pushed it into the OH range.

August 16, 2014 2:46 pm

Alkalinity has to do with the water being able to resist of the water because

================================================================
ARGHHHH!
Should be:
Alkalinity has to do with the water being able to resist a pH change of the water because