By Larry Bell
Dr. Christian Schlüchter’s discovery of 4,000-year-old chunks of wood at the leading edge of a Swiss glacier was clearly not cheered by many members of the global warming doom-and-gloom science orthodoxy.
This finding indicated that the Alps were pretty nearly glacier-free at that time, disproving accepted theories that they only began retreating after the end of the little ice age in the mid-19th century. As he concluded, the region had once been much warmer than today, with “a wild landscape and wide flowing river.”
Dr. Schlüchter’s report might have been more conveniently dismissed by the entrenched global warming establishment were it not for his distinguished reputation as a giant in the field of geology and paleoclimatology who has authored/coauthored more than 250 papers and is a professor emeritus at the University of Bern in Switzerland.
Then he made himself even more unpopular thanks to a recent interview titled “Our Society is Fundamentally Dishonest” which appeared in the Swiss publication Der Bund where he criticized the U.N.-dominated institutional climate science hierarchy for extreme tunnel vision and political contamination.
Following the ancient forest evidence discovery Schlüchter became a target of scorn. As he observes in the interview, “I wasn’t supposed to find that chunk of wood because I didn’t belong to the close-knit circle of Holocene and climate researchers. My findings thus caught many experts off guard: Now an ‘amateur’ had found something that the [more recent time-focused] Holocene and climate experts should have found.”
Other evidence exists that there is really nothing new about dramatic glacier advances and retreats. In fact the Alps were nearly glacier-free again about 2,000 years ago. Schlüchter points out that “the forest line was much higher than it is today; there were hardly any glaciers. Nowhere in the detailed travel accounts from Roman times are glaciers mentioned.”
Schlüchter criticizes his critics for focusing on a time period which is “indeed too short.” His studies and analyses of a Rhone glacier area reveal that “the rock surface had [previously] been ice-free 5,800 of the last 10,000 years.”
More here: http://www.newsmax.com/LarryBell/warming-global-climate/2014/06/17/id/577481/#ixzz355f6L5y2
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On Pierre Gosselin’s “No Tricks Zone” we have this:
Distinct solar imprint on climate
What’s more worrisome, Schlüchter’s findings show that cold periods can strike very rapidly. Near the edge of Mont Miné Glacier his team found huge tree trunks and discovered that they all had died in just a single year. The scientists were stunned.
The year of death could be determined to be exactly 8195 years before present. The oxygen isotopes in the Greenland ice show there was a marked cooling around 8200.”
That finding, Schlüchter states, confirmed that the sun is the main driver in climate change.
Today’s “rapid” changes are nothing new
In the interview he casts doubt on the UN projection that the Alps will be almost glacier-free by 2100, reminding us that “the system is extremely dynamic and doesn’t function linearly” and that “extreme, sudden changes have clearly been seen in the past“. History’s record is unequivocal on this.
Schlüchter also doesn’t view today’s climate warming as anything unusual, and poses a number of unanswered questions:
Why did the glaciers retreat in the middle of the 19th century, although the large CO2 increase in the atmosphere came later? Why did the earth ‘tip’ in such a short time into a warming phase? Why did glaciers again advance in 1880s, 1920s and 1980s? […] Sooner or later climate science will have to answer the question why the retreat of the glacier at the end of the Little Ice Age around 1850 was so rapid.”
On science: “Our society is fundamentally dishonest”
CO2 fails to answer many open questions. Already we get the sense that hockey stick climate claims are turning out to be rather sorrowful and unimaginative wives’ tales. He summarizes on the refusal to acknowledge the reality of our past: “Our society in fundamentally dishonest“.
– See more at: http://notrickszone.com/2014/06/09/giant-of-geologyglaciology-christian-schluechter-refutes-co2-feature-interview-throws-climate-science-into-disarray/#sthash.z6pKzqtQ.dpuf
Larry Bell has a bachelor or arts in architecture and a master’s degree in fine arts. He has never published a peer-reviewed paper on climate science. With all due respect (I’m sure he a tremendous architect and ubran planner), I’m not putting much stock in his opinion of climate science. In his blog (linked above), he asks why the earth “tipped” to warming in the mid-1800s, before the industrial age began. Well, maybe it had something to do with clearing large tracks of land, which also upset the CO2 balance. You would think he would know something about land use change. http://forestry.about.com/library/bl_us_forest_acre_trend.htm
dbstealey says:
August 8, 2014 at 10:37 am
…
“unprecedented”.
I’d suggest you re-read my posts and point out to me where I used the term “unprecedented”. (excluding this one)
H Grouse says:
August 8, 2014 at 10:37 am
What part of “almost” don’t you understand?
Have you actually read any of the papers on the advance and retreat of glaciers in GNP? Apparently not.
Have you seen the moraines reached by the glaciers during the Little Ice Age, from which they have now retreated, just as they did during the Medieval WP after the Dark Ages Cold Period?
sturgishooper says:
Got it?
‘H Grouse’ will never get it. Understanding is beyond his grasp.
sturgishooper says:
August 8, 2014 at 10:43 am
…
“which were warmer than now”
Since, according to you it was WARMER than it is now, and today it is warm enough to melt the last remaining (out of 25) in about 10 years, that means the were ALL gone during the MWP and Roman times.
…
But then, there’s that pesky little fact that the glaciers there TODAY date back 3000 years.
@H Grouse – sorry, future predictions are not facts. The facts are they are NOT gone. The facts are they were ALMOST gone during the MWP and RWP (and ALL gone during the Minoan).
Until they are ALL gone, they are still here. Those are the facts.
After reading this, I looked up articles on how Hannibal and the elephants crossed over the Alps over 2,000 years ago. Archeologists, historians and other scientists have been researching just that.
It appears the tree line was much higher then and the temperature was much warmer than today.
Even more embarrassing, he crossed the glaciers in late autumn-early winter.
Try finding some elephants and doing that today – even in the summer.
H Grouse says:
August 8, 2014 at 10:48 am
The ten years estimate, if anyone other than you actually made it, is totally bogus and spewed by lying alarmists without any scientific basis. Besides which, it would have to assume temperatures warmer than the past decade for the coming decade, which is unlikely.
But even if the “pause” is followed by more warming, the USGS predicts 30 years, not your totally unfounded ten:
http://environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/big-thaw/
H Grouse says:
This web site: http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/research/glacier_retreat.htm says:
I have so far found no information on the extent of the glaciers during the years they are claimed to have been in existence. However, I will note that their existence during the WMP and during Roman times in no way disproves the existence of these warm periods. I think you will have to show that they grew during those times to cast doubt on the MWP and Roman warm periods.
H Grouse says:
Where did you get this claim from? Did you make it up or find it on some web site? If the latter, I would like to check it.
I should add that in 2003, the USGS estimated 2030 for the demise of GNP’s glaciers, but now they’ve pushed it back to an ever-receding “30 years”.
Richard Sharpe says:
August 8, 2014 at 10:59 am
The assertion is a lie. USGS’s Fagre estimated they’d be gone by 2030 in 2003, but in 2013 said “30 years”, according to Nat Geo writer Glick.
Around the world, glaciers are growing again:
http://iceagenow.info/category/glaciers-are-growing-around-the-world/
Along with Antarctic sea ice. The world is cooling.
Along the Swiss-Austrian border, high up in the Alps archeologists found the remains of a large man dated from 3000BC. A little lower in elevation, and further inside Switzerland. archeologists found Roman coins, pottery, and camp remains. All of these finds were once covered under 60 foot ice snow and ice.In other words, the glaciers that so many are shedding tears over (their melting, that is) are of a recent nature (perhaps less than 1000 years old).
Barry says:
August 8, 2014 at 10:43 am
Can you say “ad hominem” “and appeal to authority” logical fallacies?
I knew you could.
Rocky Mountain glaciers growing, too, including Sperry in GNP:
http://iceagenow.info/2011/11/glaciers-growing-rockies/
Don’t have data for 2012 or last year.
Nick Stokes says:
August 8, 2014 at 5:22 am
Mike M says: August 8, 2014 at 5:01 am
AGW theory is about what happens when you dig up and release a whole lot of new carbon (as CO2) in the air.
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You could have put a ‘should’ in there somewhere but, nonetheless I agree 100%. Although, understanding how the climate works would certainly aid us in understanding how changing CO2 levels will affect it. We spend a lot of time pointing out the nonesensical ‘science’ surrounding this issue when, most of the time, it is simply irrelevant to the core issue whether true or not. We don’t know what will happen if CO2 levels are doubled. Luckily, we don’t realy have a reason to be concerned either.
“Grouse” is just “grousing”. PNA
It is interesting that this paper: http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/files/norock/products/GCC/SattelliteAtlas_Key_02.pdf
says:
Of course he is quoting someone from 1939/40 and perhaps the consensus has changed since then.
A warden told me the same thing has happened for the front of the receding Athabasca Glacier: he said 3000 year-old stumps are being revealed. The University of Calgary is supposedly (his account) sampling and studying the revealed stumps.
Duh.
However, that was then, and this is now. Today is “special”, so it is irrelevant to the warmists: nature might have done that, then, but CO2 is doing it now. Apples and oranges.
Until we can show that CO2 is NOT causing the temp rise, the argument from history has no relevance in the Climate Wars.
sturgishooper says:
August 8, 2014 at 10:53 am
Wayne Delbeke says:
August 8, 2014 at 11:17 am
And others.
…
All you need to do to is find plant material recently uncovered by the melting glaciers at GNP that date back 1000, or 2000 years to prove the MWP and Roman times were “warmer” than today. That’s the problem, the carbond dating is 3000 years.
Nick Stokes says:
August 8, 2014 at 8:29 am
{{SNIP}}}
Though the key quote really for this post is the original
“This finding indicated that the Alps were pretty nearly glacier-free at that time, disproving accepted theories that they only began retreating after the end of the little ice age in the mid-19th century.”
This “disproving accepted theories” is what I’ve been pressing. If that isn’t true, then what is the post about? And I’ve given several examples where the accepted science is quite the opposite – that the mid-Holocene was warm, and quite consistent with much reduced glaciers. So Schlüchter’s findings are no surprise, and contradict no AGW theory (not that AGW is relevant there anyway).
No-one seems to be able to counter that.
Nick, the theory is the Michael Mann Hockey Stick – for a change what is in contention is the shaft of the hockey stick which you will remember was long and straight neatly (as requested in the climategate papers ) removing the Medieval and Roman warm periods and reinforcing the often quoted Earth is now the hottest ever!!
If I understand you correctly you are saying that you and other climate scientists knew that this claim that we are now in the hottest times was wrong – but nevertheless you kept schtum and didn’t point out that Mann’s hockey stick was obviously totally incorrect as you knew as did hundreds of climate scientists (including John Finn) and presumably those in the climategate papers who wanted to ‘get rid’ of the previous optima, that there were many previous optima in the Holocene much warmer than the present.
That puts you all into an interesting ethical bind.
If you knew that what Mann and the IPCC said and used as their poster graphic for their reports was completely incorrect – as you are telling us now – why did you keep silent and watch politicians use the incorrect data for self enrichment, power and a way to raise taxes and fuel costs – leading to thousands of deaths in fuel poverty in the UK alone? Can you live with that? What caused the silence – desire for funding? Maintenance of a steady job? Billions are being spent based on the claim that it is warmer now than ever – and you are saying well we all know that’s not true. Can you not stand in front of Congress and tell them the same thing? John Finn could do the same for a parliamentary committee. In the mean time whole industries are suffering and people facing unemployment because the politicians know they are onto a good little earner and nobody is standing up and telling them they are wrong. Why are you not telling them they are wrong if you know it was warmer in the past?
People will be asking this question more insistently in future so it might be an idea to have a satisfactory answer.
Eric says:
August 8, 2014 at 9:48 am
It seems that it might be a very good thing to require all climate scientists (actually all scientists) to read Feynman’s Cargo Cult Science speech. Repeatedly.
The most important part of that speech is widely ignored by a large number of climate scientists. That portion is:
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Like math….we are in the age of the ‘New Science’ 😉
Article states:
“In fact the Alps were nearly glacier-free again about 2,000 years ago. Schlüchter points out that “the forest line was much higher than it is today; there were hardly any glaciers. Nowhere in the detailed travel accounts from Roman times are glaciers mentioned””.
——————–
Actually it was more like 2,300 years ago for sure.
I figured that out several years ago via the historical record and a wee bit of logical reasoning and intelligent deducting ….. and here is part of what I said about it at the time, to wit:
————
“Hannibal lucked out when he decided to march his army and herd of elephants across the Alps to attack the Romans in 218 BC because there surely could not have been many glaciers or heavy snowpack blocking his route since documented history proves he accomplished that feat”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal
Have you considered curing your total ignorance by reading actual studies, and improving your morals by at least trying to tell the truth?
You’re off by a factor of about 100%, ie 5900 years ago (from 1989) rather than 3000.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpubs.usgs.gov%2Fbul%2F1902%2Freport.pdf&ei=lhflU-WYN8b5oATXsIHwDA&usg=AFQjCNH5Z-9TuOOlw1VQri4iLUMc3japWg&sig2=1y1u2lHrIfmeDYjgyLYh_g&bvm=bv.72676100,d.cGU
The younger group of moraines was formed by
advances that culminated in the mid-19th century as
indicated by tree-ring studies at several localities in the park.
During that time, Glacier National Park contained more than
150 glaciers. The climatic cooling of the mid-19th century that
produced these moraines, although mild compared to fullglacial
conditions, was the most severe climatic deterioration
in the Glacier National Park region since the end of the
Wisconsin glaciation.
Since the mid-19th century, glaciers in Glacier National
Park have shrunk dramatically. From the mid-19th century
until about 1920 retreat rates were slow. From 1920 to the
mid-1940’s the Glacier National Park region experienced a
period of above average summer temperatures and below
average annual precipitation that caused the glaciers to
retreat drastically; many disappeared altogether. After the
mid-1940’s, the overall retreat rates slowed. Between 1966
and 1979, several of the larger glaciers in the Mount Jackson
area advanced slightly…
During the early to middle Holocene warm period
there were probably even fewer glaciers in the park than
at present. Several of the larger glaciers in Glacier
National Park may have survived this warm period,
although many of the park’s glaciers probably did not
exist at this time. Oxygen-isotope ratios determined by
B.H. Luckman on fir fragments from Jasper National
Park suggest that the mean annual temperature at 5,900
yr. BP was about 1.9 oc warmer than present (Osborn,
1982). Although a similar amount of warming would
certainly eliminate many of the smaller, marginal glaciers
in Glacier National Park, the larger, higher glaciers such
as the Blackfoot, Harrison, Sperry, Rainbow, Grinnell,
and Jackson probably survived the early to middle
Holocene warm period. It is interesting to note that as
early as 1942, Matthes stated that most of the presentday
glaciers in the park were not the shrunken remnants
of late Wisconsin glaciers but were new glaciers that
probably formed when the climate cooled after the
middle Holocene (Matthes, 1942).
H Grouse says:
August 8, 2014 at 11:22 am
Above addressed to H’s latest pack of lies at 11:22 AM.