Receding Swiss glaciers incoveniently reveal 4000 year old forests – and make it clear that glacier retreat is nothing new

By Larry Bell

Dr. Christian Schlüchter’s discovery of 4,000-year-old chunks of wood at the leading edge of a Swiss glacier was clearly not cheered by many members of the global warming doom-and-gloom science orthodoxy.

This finding indicated that the Alps were pretty nearly glacier-free at that time, disproving accepted theories that they only began retreating after the end of the little ice age in the mid-19th century. As he concluded, the region had once been much warmer than today, with “a wild landscape and wide flowing river.”

Dr. Schlüchter’s report might have been more conveniently dismissed by the entrenched global warming establishment were it not for his distinguished reputation as a giant in the field of geology and paleoclimatology who has authored/coauthored more than 250 papers and is a professor emeritus at the University of Bern in Switzerland.

Then he made himself even more unpopular thanks to a recent interview titled “Our Society is Fundamentally Dishonest” which appeared in the Swiss publication Der Bund where he criticized the U.N.-dominated institutional climate science hierarchy for extreme tunnel vision and political contamination.

Following the ancient forest evidence discovery Schlüchter became a target of scorn. As he observes in the interview, “I wasn’t supposed to find that chunk of wood because I didn’t belong to the close-knit circle of Holocene and climate researchers. My findings thus caught many experts off guard: Now an ‘amateur’ had found something that the [more recent time-focused] Holocene and climate experts should have found.”

Other evidence exists that there is really nothing new about dramatic glacier advances and retreats. In fact the Alps were nearly glacier-free again about 2,000 years ago. Schlüchter points out that “the forest line was much higher than it is today; there were hardly any glaciers. Nowhere in the detailed travel accounts from Roman times are glaciers mentioned.”

Schlüchter criticizes his critics for focusing on a time period which is “indeed too short.” His studies and analyses of a Rhone glacier area reveal that “the rock surface had [previously] been ice-free 5,800 of the last 10,000 years.”

More here: http://www.newsmax.com/LarryBell/warming-global-climate/2014/06/17/id/577481/#ixzz355f6L5y2

==============================================================

On Pierre Gosselin’s “No Tricks Zone” we have this:

Distinct solar imprint on climate

What’s more worrisome, Schlüchter’s findings show that cold periods can strike very rapidly. Near the edge of Mont Miné Glacier his team found huge tree trunks and discovered that they all had died in just a single year. The scientists were stunned.

The year of death could be determined to be exactly 8195 years before present. The oxygen isotopes in the Greenland ice show there was a marked cooling around 8200.”

That finding, Schlüchter states, confirmed that the sun is the main driver in climate change.

Today’s “rapid” changes are nothing new

In the interview he casts doubt on the UN projection that the Alps will be almost glacier-free by 2100, reminding us that “the system is extremely dynamic and doesn’t function linearly” and that “extreme, sudden changes have clearly been seen in the past“. History’s record is unequivocal on this.

Schlüchter also doesn’t view today’s climate warming as anything unusual, and poses a number of unanswered questions:

Why did the glaciers retreat in the middle of the 19th century, although the large CO2 increase in the atmosphere came later? Why did the earth ‘tip’ in such a short time into a warming phase? Why did glaciers again advance in 1880s, 1920s and 1980s? […] Sooner or later climate science will have to answer the question why the retreat of the glacier at the end of the Little Ice Age around 1850 was so rapid.”

On science: “Our society is fundamentally dishonest”

CO2 fails to answer many open questions. Already we get the sense that hockey stick climate claims are turning out to be rather sorrowful and unimaginative wives’ tales. He summarizes on the refusal to acknowledge the reality of our past: “Our society in fundamentally dishonest“.

– See more at: http://notrickszone.com/2014/06/09/giant-of-geologyglaciology-christian-schluechter-refutes-co2-feature-interview-throws-climate-science-into-disarray/#sthash.z6pKzqtQ.dpuf

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The Ghost Of Big Jim Cooley

The knives will be out for him.

Reblogged this on New Life Narrabri and commented:
Swiss glaciers come and they go. The planet warms and it cools again. Scientists who are truthful are not popular in the global warming community!.

This is indeed great news, because it really cannot be refuted in any way. You cannot fake radiocarbon dating correlated with tree rings. Not the hockey stick tree rings, but just good old chronology done by counting back. Pretty hard to argue with. So what do they do? Make asses of themselves by heaping scorn on the discoverer.
Bravo Dr. Christian Schlüchter. Not just a fly in the ointment, but a goddamn jumbo jet.

Adam Gallon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7580294.stm, http://climateaudit.org/2005/11/18/archaeological-finds-in-retreating-swiss-glacier/
The Schnidejoch glacier, produced evidence of Roman & Neolithic people being active in the high Alps, back in 2003. Took the BBC another 3 years to notice this.

jones

“Following the ancient forest evidence discovery Schlüchter became a target of scorn. As he observes in the interview, “I wasn’t supposed to find that chunk of wood because I didn’t belong to the close-knit circle of Holocene and climate researchers. My findings thus caught many experts off guard: Now an ‘amateur’ had found something that the [more recent time-focused] Holocene and climate experts should have found.”
.
Who does he think he is…..Alfred Wegener?
Best ignore him then I guess…..

kim

The sun? What could the sun possibly have to do with the Earth’s climate? It’s literally(I could look it up) millions and millions of miles away.
================

“The year of death could be determined to be exactly 8195 years before present. The oxygen isotopes in the Greenland ice show there was a marked cooling around 8200.”
The sudden cooling around 8200 years ago has been known since about 1960. It even has its own Wiki page.
The warmth of the mid-Holocene is also well known, and was quantified in Marcott et al, who wrote
“Early Holocene (10,000 to 5000 years ago) warmth is followed by ~0.7°C cooling through the middle to late Holocene (<5000 years ago)

Current global temperatures of the past
decade have not yet exceeded peak interglacial values"

Sec 6.5.2 of the AR4 describes this period and its changes, including the 8.2K event, and sudden growth of sea ice about 5000 years ago.

ichael Asten

Full marks to Dr. Christian Schlüchter. But the general point about existence of large glacial advance and retreat over thousands of years has been around for some time, at least to those who have eyes to read or ears to hear.
Example notes on archaeology from 9 years ago at
http://climateaudit.org/2005/11/18/archaeological-finds-in-retreating-swiss-glacier/
Also I recall remains of a Roman bridge being uncovered a few years ago below a retreating alpine glacier. Anyone recall a reference?

Michael Asten

Full marks to Dr. Christian Schlüchter. But the general point about existence of large glacial advance and retreat over thousands of years has been around for some time, at least to those who have eyes to read or ears to hear.
Example notes on archaeology from 9 years ago at
http://climateaudit.org/2005/11/18/archaeological-finds-in-retreating-swiss-glacier/
Also I recall remains of a Roman bridge being uncovered a few years ago below a retreating alpine glacier. Anyone recall a reference?

hunter

Those darn flat earthers! Their backers, the Koch brothers have gone and fabricated physical evidence again. Good thing the enlightened climatocrats know what to do about inconvenient problems like this.

hunter

Nick, you are being obtuse.
But you know that.

Stephen Richards

hunter says:
August 8, 2014 at 1:13 am
Nick, you are being obtuse.
But you know that.
It’s nick’s own defense against going completely ga-ga.

ducdorleans

I often ask warmistas whether they have heard of “Otzi” … and why he was discovered only recently …
but further on, I also ask them how he got there in the first place … and the possible circumstances about not only him being there, but clearly also his agressors …
the conversation usually ends there and then …

Village Idiot

“Receding Swiss glaciers incoveniently reveal 4000 year old forests – and make it clear that glacier retreat is nothing new”
An estimate of the last 12,000 yrs temps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_climatic_optimum#mediaviewer/File:Holocene_Temperature_Variations.png
Caption: “Temperature variations during the Holocene from a collection of different reconstructions and their average. The most recent period is on the right. Note that the recent warming is not shown on the graph.”
Significant that 4,000 yr old stuff is turning up

Pierhache

Swiss glacier Aletsch has been extensively studied by Holzhauser
http://archive.sciencewatch.com/dr/erf/2011/11feberf/11feberfHolz/

Leigh

Boy, is he in trouble!

Alan the Brit

No! Really? You mean to say that what we’re supposedly experiencing temperature wise is NOT, repeat NOT unusual? Go figure! Next I’ll be starting to think that we know very little about how the Earth’s climate actually works! I may even begin to think that these warmista scientists are just in it for the money, salary, pension plan, self-agrandisement, because it is easier to go with the flow than stand against the tide! Maybe somebody is trying to pull the wool over our eyes for nefarious purposes because they have egos the size of the Universe & think they know what’s best for everyone else, & want people to bow down before them & worship them like idols! No, that’s going a tad too far me thinks……………….surely? (Sarc off!)

Oldseadog

If Michael Mann had found the bits of wood he would have hidden them or turned them into hockey sticks and pucks.

“Dr. Schlüchter’s report might have been more conveniently dismissed by the entrenched global warming establishment were it not for his distinguished reputation as a giant in the field of geology and paleoclimatology who has authored/coauthored more than 250 papers and is a professor emeritus at the University of Bern in Switzerland.
I had read the fact that in Roman times the records and histories they left us told of an Alps with far less ice than now and trees higher up. But now a scientist decided to risk his considerable reputation by trying to put evidence of the warming into the record. Bravo!
Sadly, there are many inconvenient facts in science that get ignored if the fact goes against the prevailing paradigm. Science itself has the tendency to try to form a consensus and often does form some sort of general mythology that all must adhere to or be considered a “crank”.
I am hoping that over the next decade more and more open minded scientists from all disciplines will come forward and present honest data and their honest views. I am hoping the internet will help to make that possible and to help spread the word when it does happen.
Only in open, free, and honest debate can science and the knowledge of mankind move forward. Let us have more of it!

Quick, climate scientists, find a volcano from the period. Re-write the wiki. And don’t mention the Optimum. Scramble! What do you think you’re hired for? Now’s the time to pay for the free drinks at Cancun.

Greg Goodman

“Our society is fundamentally dishonest“.
Our scientific societies are fundamentally dishonest

BioBob

This is not that unique an problem for warmists. In 1991 hikers in the Italian/Austrian Alps found a Bronze Age corpse named Ötzi was uncovered intact and in situ at the bottom of glacial melt. oops !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi_the_Iceman

johnmarshall

How did Hanibul cross the Alps if they were deep in snow and ice? Why did the ice man undertake his journey if the route was deep in snow?
Answer— the snow was much higher up the mountains then.

Mark

Adam Gallon says:
The Schnidejoch glacier, produced evidence of Roman & Neolithic people being active in the high Alps, back in 2003. Took the BBC another 3 years to notice this.
Artifacts (and bodies) could have started on the top of ice and moved through it. What would be more solid evidence of the past being warmer would be buildings and other structures. e.g. Greenland.

jim hogg

Nick Stokes: thanks for that . . .

BioBob

bah, my sentence structure sux….please excuse

Mark

Michael Asten says:
Also I recall remains of a Roman bridge being uncovered a few years ago below a retreating alpine glacier. Anyone recall a reference?
Which would be conclusive evidence that the glacier wasn’t there as recently as Roman times.
Most likely that any glacier was a distance from the bridge if it was intended to carry traffic. Possibly closer if the structure was part of an aquaduct intended to carry melt water.
It’s not as if the Romans would have dug through a glacier, built a bridge which could never be used (or seen), then refilled the hole.

Ken Hall

Don’t confuse climate alarmists with facts and real data. It stops them from psychologically projecting their own failings onto their critics. It is much easier for them to ignore the scientific method and deny real evidence as they wrap themselves in imaginary scenarios that come out of computer climate models which have been coded to produce those scary scenarios.

Oatley

Good stuff, but be reminded that the EPA is marching forward on GHG emissions. If we don’t find a way to stop it, this country will be shackled.

SO not only is the warmth not unprecedented. But the rate of increase is not even close to what has been experienced in the recent past.

David, UK

Thanks for the great piece, but please correct the typo in the final (italicised) sentence, thanks.

John Finn

Hmmm – unfortunately I have to agree with Nick Stokes on this one. The early Holocene climate and it’s causes are pretty well understood. Larry Bell’s report is misleading (at best) when he suggests that experts were caught “off guard” by Schlüchter’s discovery.

Edim

I didn’t know it was controversial that the holocene maximum (Holocene Climate Optimum, also known as Hypsithermal, Altithermal, Climatic Optimum, Holocene Optimum, Holocene Thermal Maximum, and Holocene Megathermal) was a warm period during roughly the interval 9,000 to 5,000 years B.P. and that it’s cooling since then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_climatic_optimum

Gin

Alan the Brit: love the snark.

Jared

You have to love Rick Rokes. As someone on here mentioned before his name must be ‘adjusted’ by us ‘climatologicbloggers’ because he incorrectly wrote Nick Stokes in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013. Luckily we are here to correct his incorrect keystrokes. Raw names v Adjusted names, no difference the Adjusted names are more realistic because they fit well in my model.

t brandt

Julius Caesar, in his “De Bello Gallico,” took great pains to describe in detail the flora, fauna and geographic encountered in his military campaign north of the Italian peninsula. He never mentioned glaciers- which surely would have been noteworthy features.

Chris Thixton

Thats actually quite funny, in a Monty Python sketch kind of way.

Village Idiot

“Review of Holocene ‘Climate Optimum’ shows Temperatures 2°C hotter than Present”
http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.dk/2010/11/review-of-holocene-climate-optimum.html
And yet this old stuff is turning up from under melting glaciers.
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/holocene.html
“More over, we clearly know the cause of this natural warming, and know without doubt that this proven “astronomical” climate forcing mechanism cannot be responsible for the warming over the last 100 years.”

cnxtim

How much more reasoned evidence is required before the world at large recognises CAGW for the cynical fraud it is?

John Finn says: August 8, 2014 at 4:17 am
“Larry Bell’s report is misleading (at best) when he suggests that experts were caught “off guard” by Schlüchter’s discovery.”

Indeed. Here is a 2007 paper by mainstream paleo climate people which describes in detail finds from this period in receding Swiss glaciers, and the climatological context.

Alan Robertson

Some years ago, another Austrian glacial retreat uncovered an ancient mine, with stacked tools, etc. The miners left one day and never returned. Many such anecdotal examples of glacial ebb and flow have been found.

Alan Robertson

Nick Stokes says:
August 8, 2014 at 4:44 am
John Finn says: August 8, 2014 at 4:17 am
“Larry Bell’s report is misleading (at best) when he suggests that experts were caught “off guard” by Schlüchter’s discovery.”
Indeed. Here is a 2007 paper by mainstream paleo climate people which describes in detail finds from this period in receding Swiss glaciers, and the climatological context.
__________________
Bell did not suggest that experts were caught off guard, but instead, was reporting Schlüchter’s own words, which in proper context, do not say that the experts were caught off guard that such a discovery could be made…

Mike M

I recall Rush Limbaugh from a couple years back describing the recent discovery of medieval silver mines in the Alps (?). The mine entrance was sealed and the tools were neatly stored waiting for the next summer period of mining when the snow line again receded high enough above the elevation to pack the mules with food supplies and make the trek up there. At some point the date was too late in the summer and it wasn’t worth going up there for only a few weeks so they skipped doing it that summer – and then another, and another … until NOW when it has warmed back up enough to reveal the silver mine still up there waiting for them to return a dozen generations later.
To me such accounts as that and revelations of ancient forests under glaciers are all irrefutable evidence of periods of warmer times in the past that simply obliterate CAGW theory. They should all be FORCED to admit that their theory cannot explain those warmer periods… before Congress.

CodeTech

David, UK, perhaps the original typist has a hairlip.

Richard T

I recall a news article of several years ago of the Mendenhall glacial retreat uncovering a 1000 year old forest.

Nylo

I’m surprised not to be able to find any photos of the recently discovered chunks of wood. Shouldn’t they exist somewhere?

Alan Robertson says: August 8, 2014 at 4:56 am
“Bell did not suggest that experts were caught off guard…”

He said:
“This finding indicated that the Alps were pretty nearly glacier-free at that time, disproving accepted theories that they only began retreating after the end of the little ice age in the mid-19th century.”
But he didn’t give any support for saying that those were the accepted theories. And they weren’t.

Steve Keohane

Nicely defined in Alley’s reconstruction of the Holocene.
http://i49.tinypic.com/oji4b7.jpg

Alan Robertson

Mike M says:
August 8, 2014 at 5:01 am
To me such accounts as that and revelations of ancient forests under glaciers are all irrefutable evidence of periods of warmer times in the past that simply obliterate CAGW theory. They should all be FORCED to admit that their theory cannot explain those warmer periods… before Congress.
________________
That would give Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse and his cohorts another excuse to stand up and prevaricate about global warming and why you must be made to give up your money and your freedom.

John Finn

Alan Robertson says:
August 8, 2014 at 4:56 am
Bell did not suggest that experts were caught off guard, but instead, was reporting Schlüchter’s own words, which in proper context, do not say that the experts were caught off guard that such a discovery could be made…

So Bell reported that part of the interview “out of context”.. I’d say that’s misleading. Bell did also write

Dr. Schlüchter’s report might have been more conveniently dismissed by the entrenched global warming establishment……