CO2 data might fit the IPCC hypothesis, but it doesn't fit reality

Opinion by Dr. Tim Ball

I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. – Arthur Conan Doyle. (Sherlock Holmes)

Create The Facts You Want.

In a comment about the WUWT article “The Record of recent Man-made CO2 emissions: 1965-2013”, Pamela Gray, graphically but pointedly, summarized the situation.

When will we finally truly do the math? The anthropogenic only portion of atmospheric CO2, let alone China’s portion, does not have the cojones necessary to make one single bit of “weather” do a damn thing different. Take out just the anthropogenic CO2 and rerun the past 30 years of weather. The exact same weather pattern variations would have occurred. Or maybe because of the random nature of weather we would have had it worse. Or it could have been much better. Now do something really ridiculous and take out just China’s portion. I know, the post isn’t meant to paint China as the bad guy. But. Really? Really? All this for something so tiny you can’t find it? Not even in a child’s balloon?

The only quibble I have is that the amount illustrates the futility of the claims, as Gray notes, but the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) are focused on trends and attribution. It must have a human cause and be steadily increasing, or, as they prefer – getting worse.

Narrowing the Focus

It’s necessary to revisit criticisms of CO2 levels created by the IPCC over the last several years. Nowadays, a measure of the accuracy of the criticisms, are the vehemence of the personal attacks designed to divert from the science and evidence.

From its inception, the IPCC focused on human production of CO2. It began with the definition of climate change, provided by the UNFCCC, as only those caused by humans. The goal was to prove their hypothesis that increase of atmospheric CO2 would cause warming. This required evidence that the level increased from pre-Industrial times, and would increase each year because of human industrial activity. How long before they start reducing the rate of CO2 increase to make it fit the declining temperatures? They are running out of guesses, 30 at latest count, to explain the continued lack of temperature increase now at 17 years and 10 months.

The IPCC makes the bizarre claim that up until 1950 human addition of CO2 was a minor driver of global temperature. After that over 90 percent of temperature increase is due to human CO2.

Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic GHG concentrations.

 

The claim that a fractional increase in CO2 from human sources, which is naturally only 4 percent of all greenhouse gases, become the dominant factor in just a couple of years is incredulous. This claim comes from computer models, which are the only place in the world where a CO2 increase causes a temperature increase. It depends on human production and atmospheric levels increasing. It assumes temperature continues to increase, as all three of IPCC scenario projections imply.

Their frustration is they control the CO2 data, but after the University of Alabama at Huntsville (UAH) began satellite global temperature data, control of temperature data was curtailed. It didn’t stop them completely, as disclosures by McIntyre, Watts, Goddard, the New Zealand Climate Science Coalition among others, illustrated. They all showed adjustments designed to enhance and emphasize higher modern temperatures.

Now they’re confronted with T. H. Huxley’s challenge,

The Great Tragedy of Science – the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact.

This article examines how the modern levels of atmospheric CO2 were determined and controlled to fit the hypothesis. They may fit a political agenda, but they don’t fit nature’s agenda.

New Deductive Method; Create the Facts to Fit the Theory

Farhad Manjoo asked in True Enough: Learning To Live In A Post-fact Society,

“Why has punditry lately overtaken news? Why do lies seem to linger so long in the cultural subconscious even after they’ve been thoroughly discredited? And why, when more people than ever before are documenting the truth with laptops and digital cameras, does fact-free spin and propaganda seem to work so well?”

Manjoo’s comments apply to society in general, but are enhanced about climate science because of differing public abilities with regard to scientific issues. A large majority is more easily deceived.

Manjoo argues that people create facts themselves or find someone to produce them. Creating data is the only option in climate science because, as the 1999 NRC Report found, there is virtually none. A response to February 3, 1999 US National Research Council (NRC) Report on Climate Data said,

“Deficiencies in the accuracy, quality and continuity of the records place serious limitations on the confidence that can be placed in the research results.

The situation is worse today. The number of stations used is dramatically reduced and records adjusted to lower historic temperature data, which increases the gradient of the record. Lack of data for the oceans was recently identified.

“Two of the world’s premiere ocean scientists from Harvard and MIT have addressed the data limitations that currently prevent the oceanographic community from resolving the differences among various estimates of changing ocean heat content.”

Oceans are critical to CO2 levels because of their large sink or source capacity.

Data necessary to create a viable determination of climate mechanisms and thereby climate change, is completely inadequate. This applies especially to the structure of climate models. There is no data for at least 80 percent of the grids covering the globe, so they guess; it’s called parameterization. The 2007 IPCC Report notes,

Due to the limited resolutions of the models, many of these processes are not resolved adequately by the model grid and must therefore be parameterized. The differences between parameterizations are an important reason why climate model results differ.

Variable results occur because of inadequate data at the most basic level and subjective choices by the people involved.

The IPCC Produce The Human Production Numbers

In the 2001, IPCC Report identified 6.5 GtC (gigatons of carbon) from human sources. The figure rose to 7.5 GtC in the 2007 report and by 2010 it was 9.5 GtC. Where did they get these numbers? The answer is the IPCC has them produced and then vet them. In the FAQ section they ask, “How does the IPCC produce its Inventory Guidelines?”

Utilizing IPCC procedures, nominated experts from around the world draft the reports that are then extensively reviewed twice before approval by the IPCC.

They were called Special Report on Emissions Scenarios (SRES) until the 2013 Report, when they became Representative Concentration Pathways (RCP). In March 2001, John Daly reports Richard Lindzen referring to the SRES and the entire IPCC process including SRES as follows,

In a recent interview with James Glassman, Dr. Lindzen said that the latest report of the UN-IPCC (that he helped author), “was very much a children’s exercise of what might possibly happen” prepared by a “peculiar group” with “no technical competence.”

William Kininmonth, author of the insightful book “Climate Change: A Natural Hazard”, was former head of Australia’s National Climate Centre and their delegate to the WMO Commission for Climatology. He wrote the following in an email on the ClimateSceptics group page.

I was at first confused to see the RCP concept emerge in AR5. I have come to the conclusion that RCP is no more than a sleight of hand to confuse readers and hide absurdities in the previous approach.

You will recall that the previous carbon emission scenarios were supposed to be based on solid economic models. However, this basis was challenged by reputable economists and the IPCC economic modelling was left rather ragged and a huge question mark hanging over it.

I sense the RCP approach is to bypass the fraught economic modelling: prescribed radiation forcing pathways are fed into the climate models to give future temperature rise—if the radiation forcing plateaus at 8.5W/m2 sometime after 2100 then the global temperature rise will be 3C. But what does 8.5 W/m2 mean? Previously it was suggested that a doubling of CO2 would give a radiation forcing of 3.7 W/m2. To reach a radiation forcing of 7.4 W/m2 would thus require a doubling again—4 times CO2 concentration. Thus to follow RCP8.5 it is necessary for the atmospheric CO2 concentration equivalent to exceed 1120ppm after 2100.

We are left questioning the realism of a RCP 8.5 scenario. Is there any likelihood of the atmospheric CO2 reaching about 1120 ppm by 2100? IPCC has raised a straw man scenario to give a ‘dangerous’ global temperature rise of about 3C early in the 22nd century knowing full well that such a concentration has an extremely low probability of being achieved. But, of course, this is not explained to the politicians and policymakers. They are told of the dangerous outcome if the RCP8.5 is followed without being told of the low probability of it occurring.

One absurdity is replaced by another! Or have I missed something fundamental?[1]

No, nothing is missed! However, in reality, it doesn’t matter whether it changes anything; it achieves the goal of increasing CO2 and its supposed impact of global warming. Underpinning of IPCC climate science and the economics depends on accurate data and knowledge of mechanisms and that is not available.

We know there was insufficient weather data on which to construct climate models and the situation deteriorated as they eliminated weather stations, ‘adjusted’ them and then cherry-picked data. We know knowledge of mechanisms is inadequate because the IPCC WGI Science Report says so.

Unfortunately, the total surface heat and water fluxes (see Supplementary Material, Figure S8.14) are not well observed.

or

For models to simulate accurately the seasonally varying pattern of precipitation, they must correctly simulate a number of processes (e.g., evapotranspiration, condensation, transport) that are difficult to evaluate at a global scale.

 

Two critical situations were central to control of atmospheric CO2 levels. We know Guy Stewart Callendar, A British steam engineer, cherry-picked the low readings from 90,000 19th century atmospheric CO2 measures. This not only established a low pre-industrial level, but also altered the trend of atmospheric levels. (Figure 1)

clip_image002

Figure 1 (After Jaworowski; Trend lines added)

Callendar’s work was influential in the Gore generated claims of human induced CO2 increases. However, the most influential paper in the climate community, especially at CRU and the IPCC, was Tom Wigley’s 1983 paper “The pre-industrial carbon dioxide level.” (Climatic Change. 5, 315-320). I held seminars in my graduate level climate course about its validity and selectivity to establish a pre-industrial base line.

I wrote an obituary on learning of Becks untimely death.

I was flattered when he asked me to review one of his early papers on the historic pattern of atmospheric CO2 and its relationship to global warming. I was struck by the precision, detail and perceptiveness of his work and urged its publication. I also warned him about the personal attacks and unscientific challenges he could expect. On 6 November 2009 he wrote to me,In Germany the situation is comparable to the times of medieval inquisition.” Fortunately, he was not deterred. His friend Edgar Gartner explained Ernst’s contribution in his obituary. “Due to his immense specialized knowledge and his methodical severity Ernst very promptly noticed numerous inconsistencies in the statements of the Intergovernmental Penal on Climate Change IPCC. He considered the warming of the earth’s atmosphere as a result of a rise of the carbon dioxide content of the air of approximately 0.03 to 0.04 percent as impossible. And it doubted that the curve of the CO2 increase noted on the Hawaii volcano Mauna Loa since 1957/58 could be extrapolated linear back to the 19th century.” (This is a translation from the German)

Beck was the first to analyze in detail the 19th century data. It was data collected for scientific attempts to measure precisely the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. It began in 1812, triggered by Priestly’s work on atmospheric oxygen, and was part of the scientific effort to quantify all atmospheric gases. There was no immediate political motive. Beck did not cherry-pick the results, but examined the method, location and as much detail as possible for each measure, in complete contrast to what Callendar and Wigley did.

The IPCC had to show that,

· Increases in atmospheric CO2 caused temperature increase in the historic record.

· Current levels are unusually high relative to the historic record.

· Current levels are much higher than pre-industrial levels.

· The differences between pre-industrial and current atmospheric levels are due to human additions of CO2 to the atmosphere.

Beck’s work showed the fallacy of these claims and in so doing put a big target on his back.

Again from my obituary;

Ernst Georg Beck was a scholar and gentleman in every sense of the term. His friend wrote, “They tried to denounce Ernst Georg Beck in the Internet as naive amateur and data counterfeiter. Unfortunately, Ernst could hardly defend himself in the last months because of its progressive illness.” His work, determination and ethics were all directed at answering questions in the skeptical method that is true science; the antithesis of the efforts of all those who challenged and tried to block or denigrate him.

The 19th-century CO2 measures are no less accurate than those for temperature; indeed, I would argue that Beck shows they are superior. So why, for example, are his assessments any less valid than those made for the early portions of the Central England Temperatures (CET)? I spoke at length with Hubert Lamb about the early portion of Manley’s CET reconstruction because the instruments, locations, measures, records and knowledge of the observers were comparable to those in the Hudson’s Bay Company record I was dealing with.

Once the pre-industrial level was created it became necessary to ensure the new CO2 post-industrial trend continued. It was achieved when C.D.Keeling established the Mauna Loa CO2 measuring station. As Beck notes,

Modern greenhouse hypothesis is based on the work of G.S. Callendar and C.D. Keeling, following S. Arrhenius, as latterly popularized by the IPCC.

Keeling’s son operates Mauna Loa and as Beck notes, “owns the global monopoly of calibration of all CO2 measurements.” He is also a co-author of the IPCC reports, which accept Mauna Loa and all other readings as representative of global levels. So the IPCC control the human production figures and the atmospheric CO2 levels and both are constantly and consistently increasing.

This diverts from the real problem with the measures and claims. The fundamental IPCC objective is to identify human causes of global warming. You can only determine the human portion and contribution if you know natural levels and how much they vary and we have only very crude estimates.

What Values Are Used for Each Component of the Carbon Cycle?

Dr. Dietrich Koelle is one of the few scientists to assess estimates of natural annual CO2 emissions.

Annual Carbon Dioxide Emissions GtC per annum

1.Respiration (Humans, animals, phytoplankton) 45 to 52

2. Ocean out-gassing (tropical areas) 90 to 100

3. Volcanic and other ground sources 0.5 to 2

4. Ground bacteria, rotting and decay 50 to 60

5. Forest cutting, forest fires 1 to 3

6. Anthropogenic emissions Fossil Fuels (2010) 9.5

TOTAL 196 to 226.5

Source: Dr. Dietrich Koelle

The IPCC estimate of human production (6) for 2010 was 9.5 GtC, but that is total production. One of the early issues in the push to ratify the Kyoto Protocol was an attempt to get US ratification. The US asked for carbon credits, primarily for CO2 removed through reforestation, so a net figure would apply to their assessment as a developed nation. It was denied. The reality is the net figure better represents human impact. If we use human net production (6) at 5 GtC for 2010, then it falls within the range of the estimate for three natural sources, (1), (2), and (4).

The Truth Will Out.

How much longer will the IPCC continue to produce CO2 data with trends to fit their hypothesis that temperature will continue to rise? How much longer before the public become aware of Gray’s colorful observation that, “The anthropogenic only portion of atmospheric CO2, let alone China’s portion, does not have the cojones necessary to make one single bit of “weather” do a damn thing different.” The almost 18-year leveling and slight reduction in global temperature is essentially impossible based on IPCC assumptions. One claim is already made that the hiatus doesn’t negate their science or projections, instead of acknowledging it, along with failed predictions completely rejects their fear mongering.

IPCC and EPA have already shown that being wrong or being caught doesn’t matter. The objective is the scary headline, enhanced by the constant claim it is getting worse at an increasing rate, and time is running out. Aldous Huxley said, “Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.” We must make sure they are real and not ignored.


[1] Reproduced with permission of William Kininmonth.

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richardscourtney
August 9, 2014 10:18 am

Ferdinand:
Sometimes I think you like to argue for the sake of it.
We are discussing a possibility. It is a known possibility. It is not a known reality.
You have not falsified the possibility. And I have said all I intend to on the matter.
Richard

August 9, 2014 12:03 pm

richardscourtney says:
August 9, 2014 at 5:07 am
The late Ernst Beck wrote:
There was a US station at Westbase at that time and had measured normal CO2 in winter 1940 and very high CO2 ( 1200 ppm) in summer 1941.
(http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/070/mwr-070-05-0093.pdf table 1.)

If one reads the rest of the article, one can notice that the accuracy of the measuring method was +/- 300 ppmv! Not really suitable to know the “background” CO2 levels of that time.
Moreover, the variability of CO2 within three days are gigantic, even with the above accuracy: between 1700 and 200 ppmv which only can be true if the samples were contaminated by local combustion/exhaling.
Thus simply said, one can’t use these figures to show the real (background) CO2 levels of that period, the more that the first measurements by Keeling at Antarctica were done at the same base “Little America”, showing a few ppmv variation in the samples (and an accuracy of the method of better than 0.2 ppmv)…
No wonder that Keeling was looking for more accurate and robust methods to measure CO2…

August 9, 2014 5:05 pm

There is a problem with many of the CO2 readings cited by Beck: CO2 content in air near the surface, where the surface has a significant mass of life forms, often deviates from the overall atmospheric background level, as life forms and biomass alternatively source and sink CO2. These deviations are largely unidirectional, and upward. When the regional biosphere is sinking CO2, the sun tends to be shining, and this promotes convection, which keeps the atmosphere stirred up. So, ground-level CO2 tends to not go much below the overall atmospheric level. But when the regional biosphere is sourcing CO2, the sun is usually not shining. Then, there is usually little or no convection, and gtound-level CO2 can be much higher than the overall atmospheric level.

richardscourtney
August 9, 2014 11:53 pm

Donald L. Klipstein:
Re your post at August 9, 2014 at 5:05 pm.
I draw your attention to my post in this thread at August 8, 2014 at 3:37 am. I provide this link to it tio aid your finding it.
My post links to the paper of Massen & Beck (2007) and provides my opinion of that paper. I suggest you may want to read the paper. Its authors accept that there is a ‘background level’ of CO2 and they claim the regional CO2 background level is seen as being mostly represented by the daily minimum level. If reading the entire paper is too much then you may want to read all of my linked post.
My linked post provides my assessment of the paper and summarises my view saying

The paper by Massen & Beck relates atmospheric CO2 concentration data from individual sites to data from Mauna Loa and, therefore, it is a significant contribution to understanding of the historical data collated by Beck. It provides much useful information which may be considered to be confirmatory of Beck’s conclusions but – in my opinion – its findings cannot be considered conclusive because they are capable of more than one interpretation. In this respect the findings of Massen & Beck are similar to all other information concerning the carbon cycle; i.e. so little is known, and so little is understood, of the carbon cycle that the little available information on the carbon cycle can be understood to support any one of a variety of interpretations.
As this thread demonstrates, assessment of the carbon cycle is bedevilled by people who champion different interpretations instead of recognising that the data is consistent with all their interpretations.

Richard

August 10, 2014 2:25 am

richardscourtney says:
August 9, 2014 at 11:53 pm
Richard, if the minima measured in pre-Mauna Loa times are representative for the real “background” CO2 levels of that period, then the ice core data are not far off.
Here an overview of Beck’s data where all the minima of each data series are compared to the ice core data:
http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/beck_1925_1955.jpg
There is one series which is a lot higher in minima: measured on a mountain slope pocket (where CO2 may collect)…
richardscourtney says:
August 9, 2014 at 10:18 am
The problem is that you don’t see that it doesn’t matter at all if the human CO2 is captured within a minute by the next available tree or after 50 years somewhere in the oceans: it is additional. As long as the local CO2 levels are hardly influenced by the extra human CO2, the local uptake is hardly enhanced and what is captured as human CO2 is not captured as natural CO2. The net result still is the same increase in the atmosphere…

richardscourtney
August 10, 2014 6:57 am

Ferdinand Engelbeen:
re your second point in your post at August 10, 2014 at 2:25 am.
You say

The problem is that you don’t see that it doesn’t matter at all if the human CO2 is captured within a minute by the next available tree or after 50 years somewhere in the oceans: it is additional.

That is wrong because I do see it doesn’t matter.
You are also wrong that you think it does matter that the anthropogenic CO2 is “additional”.
The anthropogenic CO2 emission is a completely trivial and inconsequential tiny addition which – if locally sequestered – cannot possibly affect the so-call background. Indeed, that is why “it doesn’t matter at all if the human CO2 is captured within a minute by the next available tree or after 50 years somewhere in the oceans”.
You would understand these matters if you were not so blinkered that you adhere to your silly mass balance argument.
Richard

August 10, 2014 7:18 am

richardscourtney says:
August 10, 2014 at 6:57 am
The anthropogenic CO2 emission is a completely trivial and inconsequential tiny addition which – if locally sequestered – cannot possibly affect the so-call background.
Except that you “forget” that there is an increase of 100 ppmv (with 200 ppmv human emissions), which only gives 0.5 ppmv/year extra uptake by vegetation from the 4.5 ppmv/year human emissions. Thus 4 ppmv/year anyway is not absorbed by vegetation.
Still as simple math as 4.5 – 0.5 = 4
Further about the “nearby” absorption: SO2 was once a problem in Scandinavia, while the source was in the industrial areas of the UK and Germany. SO2 is heavier and much more reactive than CO2, thus why shouldn’t it react with the nearby plants and waters?

August 10, 2014 7:34 am

BTW, I am leaving now to explore Russia (Moscow and St. Petersburg) next week, thus little reaction of me in coming days,,,

richardscourtney
August 10, 2014 7:37 am

Ferdinand Engelbeen:
re your post at August 10, 2014 at 7:18 am .
I forget NOTHING in your silly mass balance argument which is completely circular.
You ignore almost everything.
1.
You assume the system would not change in the absence of the anthropogenic emission.
2.
You observe there is an anthropogenic emission.
3.
You also observe that the CO2 in the air has increased.
4.
You conclude that point 3 derives from point 2, but IT DOES NOT: it derives from the assumption which is point 1.
Richard

richardscourtney
August 10, 2014 7:39 am

Ferdinand:
Have a good time in Russia. St Petersburg is wonderful.
Richard

Bart
August 10, 2014 9:33 am

Phil. says:
August 7, 2014 at 12:26 pm
The mass does matter. By your logic, a balloon filled with helium and one filled with CO2, at ambient temperature, should both just drift along in no particular direction. Shrink those “balloons” down to the level of a molecule, with many kajillions of them all vying for space, and you have the situation we are looking at. Some CO2 balloons get pushed higher, but the tendency is down, just as the tendency for the H2 balloons is to go higher. Bulk projections can be made for the entire atmosphere, but these do not hold everywhere. The boundary layer behaves differently. Especially when the boundary, itself, is a sink.
As for the rest, the relationship is empirical, can cannot be gainsaid by your logical contortions. You cannot modify the data to fit your hypothesis. The data are the data. You must fit your hypothesis to them, not the other way around.

Bart
August 10, 2014 9:34 am

climatereason says:
August 9, 2014 at 6:07 am
“I remain unconvinced that many famous scientists utilising a co2 measurement regime, started decades or centuries before their analysis, could get it so wrong right up to the start of the atomic age. . Yet Keeling apparently got it right immediately.”
The difference is that Keeling can be checked by modern, direct measurements. There are no means of verifying the earlier projections. Taking them are valid requires a leap of faith.

Bart
August 10, 2014 9:36 am

Phil and Ferdinand still want to force the data to fit their hypothesis, rather than the other way around. They offer words to rationalize their desired outcome. Not experiment. Not data. Words. That is pre-enlightenment thinking. It is antithetical to the scientific method.

Bart
August 10, 2014 6:21 pm

I will leave, for anyone still following this thread, the following fact: there is no argument whether the biological sinks have a profound effect. The 5 ppmv annual variation states unequivocally that they do. During the NH summer, they are clearly taking out CO2 at a much faster rate then is accumulating from other sources.
The only question is, how fast, or rather how vigorously, do they take it out? The answer, according to the long term data, is very. Phil and Ferdinand argue, essentially, that they are like clockwork mechanisms, always removing, and giving up, the same amount year to year. Yet, there is no physical constraint which demands this. The long term data are telling us that CO2 sequestration processes are more than powerful enough to sequester our inputs, and natural equilibrium processes are dictating the long term behavior.

August 11, 2014 11:38 am

climatereason says:
August 9, 2014 at 6:07 am
I remain unconvinced that many famous scientists utilising a co2 measurement regime, started decades or centuries before their analysis, could get it so wrong right up to the start of the atomic age. . Yet Keeling apparently got it right immediately.

In part because he was looking for a method and location where he could measure CO2 without it being perturbed by local sources and sinks. Many of the other earlier measurements were just trying to measure local CO2 and were interested in diurnal changes etc. In addition the ‘wet’ chemistry methods are subject to error caused by for example contact with the breath of the person using the pipette, common practice back then. Modern measurements also use calibration with standard gas mixtures, not common practice before Keeling.

August 11, 2014 11:49 am

Bart says:
August 10, 2014 at 6:21 pm
I will leave, for anyone still following this thread, the following fact: there is no argument whether the biological sinks have a profound effect. The 5 ppmv annual variation states unequivocally that they do. During the NH summer, they are clearly taking out CO2 at a much faster rate then is accumulating from other sources.

Only during the growing season during the rest of the year it’s given back, basically only about half of the amount of CO2 released from fossil fuels is removed from the atmosphere each year.
The only question is, how fast, or rather how vigorously, do they take it out? The answer, according to the long term data, is very. Phil and Ferdinand argue, essentially, that they are like clockwork mechanisms, always removing, and giving up, the same amount year to year.
Neither Ferdinand nor I have claimed that.
Yet, there is no physical constraint which demands this.
But there are constraints like Henry’s Law which limits the amount of new CO2 which can be removed from the air.
Both the biological sinks and absorption by water are equilibrium processes which depend on [CO2] and T.

August 11, 2014 12:18 pm

Bart says:
August 10, 2014 at 9:33 am
Phil. says:
August 7, 2014 at 12:26 pm
The mass does matter. By your logic, a balloon filled with helium and one filled with CO2, at ambient temperature, should both just drift along in no particular direction. Shrink those “balloons” down to the level of a molecule, with many kajillions of them all vying for space, and you have the situation we are looking at. Some CO2 balloons get pushed higher, but the tendency is down, just as the tendency for the H2 balloons is to go higher.

It’s about time you read up on the physics of gases, your balloon analogy is seriously flawed. There is no segregation of molecules by molecular mass below the stratopause.

August 11, 2014 12:53 pm

richardscourtney says:
August 10, 2014 at 7:37 am
Ferdinand Engelbeen:
re your post at August 10, 2014 at 7:18 am .
I forget NOTHING in your silly mass balance argument which is completely circular.

No it is not, ask any chemical engineer.
dX/dt= Source rate of X – Sink rate of X
A standard species balance equation, in this case for CO2 in the atmosphere.
You ignore almost everything.
1.
You assume the system would not change in the absence of the anthropogenic emission.
There is no such assumption, quite the contrary the data indicates that there would be a reduction in pCO2 in the absence of anthropogenic emission under the present conditions.
2.
You observe there is an anthropogenic emission.
3.
You also observe that the CO2 in the air has increased.
4.
You conclude that point 3 derives from point 2, but IT DOES NOT: it derives from the assumption which is point 1.

Not at all the data shows that on an annual basis Sources exceed Sinks, if the sources are divided into anthro and natural the equation becomes:
d[CO2]/dt= anthro emission+Source rate [CO2] – Sink rate [CO2]
d[CO2]/dt= ~anthro emission/2 (Observation)
Therefore: Source rate [CO2] – Sink rate [CO2] = ~anthro emission/2 – anthro emission
So: Source rate [CO2] – Sink rate [CO2] = ~anthro emission/2
That’s an observation based on the data not an assumption.

richardscourtney
August 11, 2014 1:03 pm

Phil.:
Your post at August 11, 2014 at 12:53 pm is merely a long-winded way to say that
the annual rise in atmospheric CO2 is equivalent to about 50% of the small anthropogenic (i.e. from human activities) CO2 emission of a typical year.
You could also say
the annual rise in atmospheric CO2 is equivalent to about 2% the large natural CO2 emission of a typical year.
Neither statement says anything about the cause of the annual rise in atmospheric CO2.
Richard

August 11, 2014 1:38 pm

richardscourtney says:
August 11, 2014 at 1:03 pm
Phil.:
Your post at August 11, 2014 at 12:53 pm is merely a long-winded way to say that
the annual rise in atmospheric CO2 is equivalent to about 50% of the small anthropogenic (i.e. from human activities) CO2 emission of a typical year.
You could also say
the annual rise in atmospheric CO2 is equivalent to about 2% the large natural CO2 emission of a typical year.
Neither statement says anything about the cause of the annual rise in atmospheric CO2.

No because the net natural CO2 emission is negative as the balance equation shows.
Your statement is equivalent to saying that the annual growth is a small fraction of the natural growth, the implication of that is that a small annual fluctuation in that growth could lead to either a net annual growth or decay. So the chance of growth would be about 50%, however we’ve observed over 50 consecutive years of growth, rather unlikely don’t you think, 0.5^50! That’s about 1 in 10^15.

richardscourtney
August 11, 2014 2:05 pm

Phil.:
Your post at August 11, 2014 at 1:38 pm demonstrates that you have no understanding of the issue under discussion.
I refer you to the posts of rgbatduke at August 5, 2014 at 5:39 am here
and at August 5, 2014 at 9:38 am here.
Also, on a previous thread I explained the specific matter which you demonstrate you don’t know and that explanation is here.
Having read those posts you may start to understand the subject. Your post I am answering indicates that you need to read this entire thread before making another comment.
Richard

August 12, 2014 3:32 am

richardscourtney says:
August 11, 2014 at 2:05 pm
Phil.:
Your post at August 11, 2014 at 1:38 pm demonstrates that you have no understanding of the issue under discussion.

To the contrary it indicates that I do.
I refer you to the posts of rgbatduke at August 5, 2014 at 5:39 am here
and at August 5, 2014 at 9:38 am here.
Also, on a previous thread I explained the specific matter which you demonstrate you don’t know and that explanation is here.

As both Ferdinand and I have pointed out your ‘explanation’ is incorrect. RGBatduke indicates that he doesn’t understand how efficient leaves are in the process of gas exchange and chemical reaction, but then he’s a physicist so that’s understandable. The instruments and techniques used for measuring CO2 over one hundred years ago are well understood and can be tested as described (see Bray for instance).
Having read those posts you may start to understand the subject. Your post I am answering indicates that you need to read this entire thread before making another comment.
There is no need for me to reread this entire thread, you on the other hand perhaps should actually read some of the posts and try to understand them rather than dismiss everything that doesn’t agree with your agenda.

Bart
August 13, 2014 2:24 am

Phil. says:
August 11, 2014 at 12:18 pm
“It’s about time you read up on the physics of gases…”
It’s about time you graduated beyond elementary texts. You do not appear to understand the difference between bulk average atmospheric dynamics in a specific regime, and local behavior approaching the boundaries. The PBL is very different from the troposphere.
Phil. says:
August 11, 2014 at 12:53 pm
“Source rate [CO2] – Sink rate [CO2] = ~anthro emission/2”
So very facile, yielding a completely unsupported conclusion. You’re way out of your depth on this.

richardscourtney
August 13, 2014 2:43 am

Bart:
At August 13, 2014 at 2:24 am you say to the troll who posts as Phil.

You’re way out of your depth on this.

Yes, and at August 11, 2014 at 2:05 pm I attempted to inform the troll how to swim in the deep water it had entered but – as is the way with trolls – Phil. replied showing a desire to splash about instead of learning.
Richard

August 13, 2014 1:30 pm

Bart says:
August 13, 2014 at 2:24 am
Phil. says:
August 11, 2014 at 12:18 pm
“It’s about time you read up on the physics of gases…”
It’s about time you graduated beyond elementary texts. You do not appear to understand the difference between bulk average atmospheric dynamics in a specific regime, and local behavior approaching the boundaries. The PBL is very different from the troposphere.

Indeed it is turbulent mixing in the PBL is very strong, here’s a source for you:
http://kkd.ou.edu/METR4433_Spring_2011/Chapter2.1.pdf
As that text says:
“PBL is special because:
• boundary layer is very turbulent”
Particularly note Table 1.1, in particular:
”Turbulence BL – Almost completely turbulent over its whole depth
Dispersion BL- Rapid turbulent mixing in the vertical and the horizontal
Vertical transport BL – Turbulence dominates”
If it weren’t so why would SF6 (MW 146) be a gas of choice to measure dispersion in the BL?
http://www.noaa.inel.gov/projects/urban2000/docs/Final%20Report%20Urban2000.PDF
As I said before the first law of holes applies here, “stop digging’, the more you post the more evident it is that you don’t have a clue!
Phil. says:
August 11, 2014 at 12:53 pm
“Source rate [CO2] – Sink rate [CO2] = ~anthro emission/2″
So very facile, yielding a completely unsupported conclusion. You’re way out of your depth on this.

Facile? This from a guy who thinks that removing the trend from the CO2 growth curve and shows a small correlation between the fluctuations that remain and the small fluctuation in temperature somehow proves that temperature is the only cause of CO2 increase! That despite being shown over and over again that the fluctuation isn’t capable of producing the magnitude of the change in CO2.

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