Opinion by Dr. Tim Ball
I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. – Arthur Conan Doyle. (Sherlock Holmes)
Create The Facts You Want.
In a comment about the WUWT article “The Record of recent Man-made CO2 emissions: 1965-2013”, Pamela Gray, graphically but pointedly, summarized the situation.
When will we finally truly do the math? The anthropogenic only portion of atmospheric CO2, let alone China’s portion, does not have the cojones necessary to make one single bit of “weather” do a damn thing different. Take out just the anthropogenic CO2 and rerun the past 30 years of weather. The exact same weather pattern variations would have occurred. Or maybe because of the random nature of weather we would have had it worse. Or it could have been much better. Now do something really ridiculous and take out just China’s portion. I know, the post isn’t meant to paint China as the bad guy. But. Really? Really? All this for something so tiny you can’t find it? Not even in a child’s balloon?
The only quibble I have is that the amount illustrates the futility of the claims, as Gray notes, but the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) are focused on trends and attribution. It must have a human cause and be steadily increasing, or, as they prefer – getting worse.
Narrowing the Focus
It’s necessary to revisit criticisms of CO2 levels created by the IPCC over the last several years. Nowadays, a measure of the accuracy of the criticisms, are the vehemence of the personal attacks designed to divert from the science and evidence.
From its inception, the IPCC focused on human production of CO2. It began with the definition of climate change, provided by the UNFCCC, as only those caused by humans. The goal was to prove their hypothesis that increase of atmospheric CO2 would cause warming. This required evidence that the level increased from pre-Industrial times, and would increase each year because of human industrial activity. How long before they start reducing the rate of CO2 increase to make it fit the declining temperatures? They are running out of guesses, 30 at latest count, to explain the continued lack of temperature increase now at 17 years and 10 months.
The IPCC makes the bizarre claim that up until 1950 human addition of CO2 was a minor driver of global temperature. After that over 90 percent of temperature increase is due to human CO2.
Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic GHG concentrations.
The claim that a fractional increase in CO2 from human sources, which is naturally only 4 percent of all greenhouse gases, become the dominant factor in just a couple of years is incredulous. This claim comes from computer models, which are the only place in the world where a CO2 increase causes a temperature increase. It depends on human production and atmospheric levels increasing. It assumes temperature continues to increase, as all three of IPCC scenario projections imply.
Their frustration is they control the CO2 data, but after the University of Alabama at Huntsville (UAH) began satellite global temperature data, control of temperature data was curtailed. It didn’t stop them completely, as disclosures by McIntyre, Watts, Goddard, the New Zealand Climate Science Coalition among others, illustrated. They all showed adjustments designed to enhance and emphasize higher modern temperatures.
Now they’re confronted with T. H. Huxley’s challenge,
The Great Tragedy of Science – the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact.
This article examines how the modern levels of atmospheric CO2 were determined and controlled to fit the hypothesis. They may fit a political agenda, but they don’t fit nature’s agenda.
New Deductive Method; Create the Facts to Fit the Theory
Farhad Manjoo asked in True Enough: Learning To Live In A Post-fact Society,
“Why has punditry lately overtaken news? Why do lies seem to linger so long in the cultural subconscious even after they’ve been thoroughly discredited? And why, when more people than ever before are documenting the truth with laptops and digital cameras, does fact-free spin and propaganda seem to work so well?”
Manjoo’s comments apply to society in general, but are enhanced about climate science because of differing public abilities with regard to scientific issues. A large majority is more easily deceived.
Manjoo argues that people create facts themselves or find someone to produce them. Creating data is the only option in climate science because, as the 1999 NRC Report found, there is virtually none. A response to February 3, 1999 US National Research Council (NRC) Report on Climate Data said,
“Deficiencies in the accuracy, quality and continuity of the records place serious limitations on the confidence that can be placed in the research results.
The situation is worse today. The number of stations used is dramatically reduced and records adjusted to lower historic temperature data, which increases the gradient of the record. Lack of data for the oceans was recently identified.
“Two of the world’s premiere ocean scientists from Harvard and MIT have addressed the data limitations that currently prevent the oceanographic community from resolving the differences among various estimates of changing ocean heat content.”
Oceans are critical to CO2 levels because of their large sink or source capacity.
Data necessary to create a viable determination of climate mechanisms and thereby climate change, is completely inadequate. This applies especially to the structure of climate models. There is no data for at least 80 percent of the grids covering the globe, so they guess; it’s called parameterization. The 2007 IPCC Report notes,
Due to the limited resolutions of the models, many of these processes are not resolved adequately by the model grid and must therefore be parameterized. The differences between parameterizations are an important reason why climate model results differ.
Variable results occur because of inadequate data at the most basic level and subjective choices by the people involved.
The IPCC Produce The Human Production Numbers
In the 2001, IPCC Report identified 6.5 GtC (gigatons of carbon) from human sources. The figure rose to 7.5 GtC in the 2007 report and by 2010 it was 9.5 GtC. Where did they get these numbers? The answer is the IPCC has them produced and then vet them. In the FAQ section they ask, “How does the IPCC produce its Inventory Guidelines?”
Utilizing IPCC procedures, nominated experts from around the world draft the reports that are then extensively reviewed twice before approval by the IPCC.
They were called Special Report on Emissions Scenarios (SRES) until the 2013 Report, when they became Representative Concentration Pathways (RCP). In March 2001, John Daly reports Richard Lindzen referring to the SRES and the entire IPCC process including SRES as follows,
In a recent interview with James Glassman, Dr. Lindzen said that the latest report of the UN-IPCC (that he helped author), “was very much a children’s exercise of what might possibly happen” prepared by a “peculiar group” with “no technical competence.”
William Kininmonth, author of the insightful book “Climate Change: A Natural Hazard”, was former head of Australia’s National Climate Centre and their delegate to the WMO Commission for Climatology. He wrote the following in an email on the ClimateSceptics group page.
I was at first confused to see the RCP concept emerge in AR5. I have come to the conclusion that RCP is no more than a sleight of hand to confuse readers and hide absurdities in the previous approach.
You will recall that the previous carbon emission scenarios were supposed to be based on solid economic models. However, this basis was challenged by reputable economists and the IPCC economic modelling was left rather ragged and a huge question mark hanging over it.
I sense the RCP approach is to bypass the fraught economic modelling: prescribed radiation forcing pathways are fed into the climate models to give future temperature rise—if the radiation forcing plateaus at 8.5W/m2 sometime after 2100 then the global temperature rise will be 3C. But what does 8.5 W/m2 mean? Previously it was suggested that a doubling of CO2 would give a radiation forcing of 3.7 W/m2. To reach a radiation forcing of 7.4 W/m2 would thus require a doubling again—4 times CO2 concentration. Thus to follow RCP8.5 it is necessary for the atmospheric CO2 concentration equivalent to exceed 1120ppm after 2100.
We are left questioning the realism of a RCP 8.5 scenario. Is there any likelihood of the atmospheric CO2 reaching about 1120 ppm by 2100? IPCC has raised a straw man scenario to give a ‘dangerous’ global temperature rise of about 3C early in the 22nd century knowing full well that such a concentration has an extremely low probability of being achieved. But, of course, this is not explained to the politicians and policymakers. They are told of the dangerous outcome if the RCP8.5 is followed without being told of the low probability of it occurring.
One absurdity is replaced by another! Or have I missed something fundamental?[1]
No, nothing is missed! However, in reality, it doesn’t matter whether it changes anything; it achieves the goal of increasing CO2 and its supposed impact of global warming. Underpinning of IPCC climate science and the economics depends on accurate data and knowledge of mechanisms and that is not available.
We know there was insufficient weather data on which to construct climate models and the situation deteriorated as they eliminated weather stations, ‘adjusted’ them and then cherry-picked data. We know knowledge of mechanisms is inadequate because the IPCC WGI Science Report says so.
Unfortunately, the total surface heat and water fluxes (see Supplementary Material, Figure S8.14) are not well observed.
or
For models to simulate accurately the seasonally varying pattern of precipitation, they must correctly simulate a number of processes (e.g., evapotranspiration, condensation, transport) that are difficult to evaluate at a global scale.
Two critical situations were central to control of atmospheric CO2 levels. We know Guy Stewart Callendar, A British steam engineer, cherry-picked the low readings from 90,000 19th century atmospheric CO2 measures. This not only established a low pre-industrial level, but also altered the trend of atmospheric levels. (Figure 1)
Figure 1 (After Jaworowski; Trend lines added)
Callendar’s work was influential in the Gore generated claims of human induced CO2 increases. However, the most influential paper in the climate community, especially at CRU and the IPCC, was Tom Wigley’s 1983 paper “The pre-industrial carbon dioxide level.” (Climatic Change. 5, 315-320). I held seminars in my graduate level climate course about its validity and selectivity to establish a pre-industrial base line.
I wrote an obituary on learning of Becks untimely death.
I was flattered when he asked me to review one of his early papers on the historic pattern of atmospheric CO2 and its relationship to global warming. I was struck by the precision, detail and perceptiveness of his work and urged its publication. I also warned him about the personal attacks and unscientific challenges he could expect. On 6 November 2009 he wrote to me, “In Germany the situation is comparable to the times of medieval inquisition.” Fortunately, he was not deterred. His friend Edgar Gartner explained Ernst’s contribution in his obituary. “Due to his immense specialized knowledge and his methodical severity Ernst very promptly noticed numerous inconsistencies in the statements of the Intergovernmental Penal on Climate Change IPCC. He considered the warming of the earth’s atmosphere as a result of a rise of the carbon dioxide content of the air of approximately 0.03 to 0.04 percent as impossible. And it doubted that the curve of the CO2 increase noted on the Hawaii volcano Mauna Loa since 1957/58 could be extrapolated linear back to the 19th century.” (This is a translation from the German)
Beck was the first to analyze in detail the 19th century data. It was data collected for scientific attempts to measure precisely the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. It began in 1812, triggered by Priestly’s work on atmospheric oxygen, and was part of the scientific effort to quantify all atmospheric gases. There was no immediate political motive. Beck did not cherry-pick the results, but examined the method, location and as much detail as possible for each measure, in complete contrast to what Callendar and Wigley did.
The IPCC had to show that,
· Increases in atmospheric CO2 caused temperature increase in the historic record.
· Current levels are unusually high relative to the historic record.
· Current levels are much higher than pre-industrial levels.
· The differences between pre-industrial and current atmospheric levels are due to human additions of CO2 to the atmosphere.
Beck’s work showed the fallacy of these claims and in so doing put a big target on his back.
Again from my obituary;
Ernst Georg Beck was a scholar and gentleman in every sense of the term. His friend wrote, “They tried to denounce Ernst Georg Beck in the Internet as naive amateur and data counterfeiter. Unfortunately, Ernst could hardly defend himself in the last months because of its progressive illness.” His work, determination and ethics were all directed at answering questions in the skeptical method that is true science; the antithesis of the efforts of all those who challenged and tried to block or denigrate him.
The 19th-century CO2 measures are no less accurate than those for temperature; indeed, I would argue that Beck shows they are superior. So why, for example, are his assessments any less valid than those made for the early portions of the Central England Temperatures (CET)? I spoke at length with Hubert Lamb about the early portion of Manley’s CET reconstruction because the instruments, locations, measures, records and knowledge of the observers were comparable to those in the Hudson’s Bay Company record I was dealing with.
Once the pre-industrial level was created it became necessary to ensure the new CO2 post-industrial trend continued. It was achieved when C.D.Keeling established the Mauna Loa CO2 measuring station. As Beck notes,
Modern greenhouse hypothesis is based on the work of G.S. Callendar and C.D. Keeling, following S. Arrhenius, as latterly popularized by the IPCC.
Keeling’s son operates Mauna Loa and as Beck notes, “owns the global monopoly of calibration of all CO2 measurements.” He is also a co-author of the IPCC reports, which accept Mauna Loa and all other readings as representative of global levels. So the IPCC control the human production figures and the atmospheric CO2 levels and both are constantly and consistently increasing.
This diverts from the real problem with the measures and claims. The fundamental IPCC objective is to identify human causes of global warming. You can only determine the human portion and contribution if you know natural levels and how much they vary and we have only very crude estimates.
What Values Are Used for Each Component of the Carbon Cycle?
Dr. Dietrich Koelle is one of the few scientists to assess estimates of natural annual CO2 emissions.
Annual Carbon Dioxide Emissions GtC per annum
1.Respiration (Humans, animals, phytoplankton) 45 to 52
2. Ocean out-gassing (tropical areas) 90 to 100
3. Volcanic and other ground sources 0.5 to 2
4. Ground bacteria, rotting and decay 50 to 60
5. Forest cutting, forest fires 1 to 3
6. Anthropogenic emissions Fossil Fuels (2010) 9.5
TOTAL 196 to 226.5
Source: Dr. Dietrich Koelle
The IPCC estimate of human production (6) for 2010 was 9.5 GtC, but that is total production. One of the early issues in the push to ratify the Kyoto Protocol was an attempt to get US ratification. The US asked for carbon credits, primarily for CO2 removed through reforestation, so a net figure would apply to their assessment as a developed nation. It was denied. The reality is the net figure better represents human impact. If we use human net production (6) at 5 GtC for 2010, then it falls within the range of the estimate for three natural sources, (1), (2), and (4).
The Truth Will Out.
How much longer will the IPCC continue to produce CO2 data with trends to fit their hypothesis that temperature will continue to rise? How much longer before the public become aware of Gray’s colorful observation that, “The anthropogenic only portion of atmospheric CO2, let alone China’s portion, does not have the cojones necessary to make one single bit of “weather” do a damn thing different.” The almost 18-year leveling and slight reduction in global temperature is essentially impossible based on IPCC assumptions. One claim is already made that the hiatus doesn’t negate their science or projections, instead of acknowledging it, along with failed predictions completely rejects their fear mongering.
IPCC and EPA have already shown that being wrong or being caught doesn’t matter. The objective is the scary headline, enhanced by the constant claim it is getting worse at an increasing rate, and time is running out. Aldous Huxley said, “Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.” We must make sure they are real and not ignored.
[1] Reproduced with permission of William Kininmonth.
richardscourtney says:
August 8, 2014 at 4:01 am
If “local CO2 concentrations are hardly influenced by humans compared to the huge diurnal changes caused by vegetation” then why don’t the nearby sequestration processes sequester the small increase to CO2 from humans?
The increase in CO2 uptake by the biosphere over the past 20 years is about 1.5 GtC/year. The diurnal + seasonal in/out change of the whole biosphere is ~120 GtC. The 1.5 GtC extra uptake is the result of the 70 ppmv (145 GtC) extra pressure of CO2 in the atmosphere over the same time frame, maybe in part by some local extra concentrations, but mostly by the general increase.
If the local increase is a few ppmv, that hardly makes a difference in uptake. Something in the order of 50 ppmv would be of interest, but is seldom seen in the human contribution, except in towns and low wind conditions.
Ferdinand Engelbeen: “It would make a difference if the local human CO2 concentrations were much higher near plants, but as several local measurements show, local CO2 concentrations are hardly influenced by humans compared to the huge diurnal changes caused by vegetation.”
Thanks for taking the time to respond. What you say makes sense, particularly in response to the question as I posed it, which speculated about local artificial sources spawning additional sinks. (But I have to suspend judgment about how “sparsely green” most urban areas are. Certainly places like, say, Times Square in New York City are sparsely green. On the other hand, the urban area I now live in has many times the tree density of the rural area in which I grew up surrounded by corn and soybean fields.)
Suppose, though, that the artificial sources don’t cause any added sinks, but the amount of carbon that the sinks sequester depends on the CO2 concentration. That is, the “huge diurnal changes caused by vegetation” could themselves be affected by the concentration changes caused by humans.
Obviously, I don’t know that’s the way it is; I’m just speculating. And I have no way to quantify the effect; as you say, the most-intense point source emit at some altitude. But, although I’m inclined to defer to your expertise, I’m not yet able to convince myself that I know for sure.
But you’re using my argument backwards. Suppose you already had 900 ppm in the first 1 km, and increased it from 900 to 1000 in the first 1 km and from 300 to 400 in the next 8. The predicted increase in temperature from the system in this case would then be strictly less than the predicted increase in temperature in the system in the case where the same temperature is reached with 300 ppm in the entire atmosphere, which is then increased to 400 ppm.
The point is that one begins from very different equilibria, and that I’m asking about the marginal change (anomaly), not the absolute temperature. The difference might be only 0.1 C, but I doubt it. Indeed, you’re looking at the marginal difference between 400 ppm all the way and 1000 ppm in the 1st km and 400 the rest of the way and already see 0.1C, but this is likely to be the smaller part of the change.
rgb
Sorry to quote myself and continue, but I need to point out that Modtran alone isn’t enough to fully answer the question because of the “very different equilibria” bit of this. This is associated with the “shunt resistance” which also has to be fit in even a very simple (in this case two) layer model. If one fixes the initial global average surface temperature at (say) its supposed 1950 value with 300 ppm CO_2 top to bottom of the atmosphere, and then try to balance that with radiation, you’ll need to account for the phenomena the transport heat up through the radiative layers — vertical heat transport in e.g. thunderstorms both as specific heat and as latent heat, for example — as well as for albedo variations and so on that go into the other terms so that one reaches that particular temperature for that particular level of CO_2 top to bottom. These mechanisms will lead to an effective “resistance” to outgoing heat flow in the non-radiative channels. This resistance is implicit in the rise in surface temperature required to rebalance the system when increasing the atmospheric CO_2 to 400 ppm.
If you initialize with the same initial temperature but with a CO_2 concentration that is already 900 ppm in the first km and 300 in the following nine km (which is exaggerated, sure, but useful for illustrating the point) then you have a larger initial resistance in the radiative channel, and will have to decrease the resistance in the non-radiative channel to achieve the same initial temperature (the same total resistance). When you then move the 900 to 1000, and the 300 to 400, you will then without doubt increase the resistance in the radiative channel, although it will be a strictly smaller fractional increase but that increase is also shorted out by a decreased resistance in the non-radiative channels required to explain the same temperature as a starting point. The change in equilibrium surface temperature will thus be quadratic in the fractional change in CO_2 to lowest order, not linear. That is, it could strongly suppress the gain in average surface temperature because the response is nonlinear, not linear.
Which is hardly surprising. Note well that I’m not even asserting a fundamental change in the underlying mechanisms that contribute to the shunt (non-radiative) resistance and we already expect a quadratic behavior. What we know about e.g. cloud dynamics and latent heat transport and albedo suggest that the leading order term might even be cubic. That still doesn’t make it “negligible” — as I said, the numbers above are likely exaggerated, but then again, maybe not. After all, over most ocean water there is a surface layer of high GHG concentration in the form of water vapor that is an easy kilometer thick. That’s 70% of the Earth’s surface right there, where the response to added CO_2 might be cubic or even fourth order, as there is likely to be an extra strong latent heat transport and albedo effect there as well. The land tropical band (rain forest) should similarly have a highly suppressed linear response to added CO_2 due to pre-existing non-CO_2 radiation resistance in the lowest atmospheric layer. I wasn’t even aware that similar conditions hold in places like Poona, which is hardly wet most of the year, rather the contrary, in ordinary agricultural plots — this suggests that even comparatively dry temperate zone agriculture should have suppressed responses to added CO_2 due to greater pre-existing ground level CO_2 radiation resistance.
Basically, this sort of thing — occurring in layers too thin to be properly treated in GCMs and incorrectly balanced in shunt resistance because of where they were initialized (in the 80s reference period and fit to strongly increasing temperatures) — could lead to a very substantial error in even the simplest models.
rgb
Joe Born says:
August 8, 2014 at 4:42 am
Suppose, though, that the artificial sources don’t cause any added sinks, but the amount of carbon that the sinks sequester depends on the CO2 concentration.
The overall increase of CO2 from 280 ppmv pre-industrial to 400 ppmv today certainly had some influence: from 0.5 GtC/year net loss before 1990 to about 1 GtC net uptake today, out of the 9 GtC/year that humans emit. Thus all other things being equal, more CO2 will give more plant growth. In the best circumstances as is the case in greenhouses (light, water, nutrients), the increase is even average 50% for a CO2 doubling: growers frequently add 1,000 ppmv and more CO2 in their greenhouses.
But in nature, things are seldom ideal and other items like drought, temperature, nutrients, are also playing their role. Nevertheless more CO2 = more plant growth, with an interesting side effect: with higher CO2 levels, the plants need less stomata and therefore have less water loss, which can be seen in the greening of several semi-arid landscapes.
Thus where plants grow in the middle of towns, you probably will see more growth, which can be measured, as the human emissions have a lower 13C/12C ratio and no 14C left. Farther away from huge human sources, I doubt that it will be measurable, except for the general increase in total CO2 and the decrease in 13C/12C ratio and drop in 14C.
Ferdinand Engelbeen:
Your posts at August 8, 2014 at 4:22 am addressed to me and at August 8, 2014 at 8:50 am addressed to Joe Born discuss a different issue from that in my post at August 8, 2014 at 4:01 am which posed the question
Please note that you said “local CO2 concentrations are hardly influenced by humans compared to the huge diurnal changes caused by vegetation”. Those “huge diurnal changes” prove that local “vegetation” can sequester all such emitted CO2 because it does. So, how do you answer – n.b. answer and not evade – the question.
Richard
rgbatduke says:
August 8, 2014 at 6:18 am
Quite a lot of questions…
I do understand what you want to do, but the answer is practically impossible: you need in fact a full GCM, including layer by layer calculations of what (may) happen in the atmosphere for increased CO2/temperatures. But even the GCM’s all fail in one of the most important items in the energy balance: cloud cover, including the extreme thunderstorms in the tropics which remove a lot of energy directly to space…
The problem is – as Willys Eschenbach repeatedly emphasized here on WUWT, is that the non-radiative “bypass” acts more as a (maximum) temperature cap than as a shunt: If the ocean water temperature increases to a critical point, then cyclones (may) start to show up which remove a lot of energy from the tropics to other latitudes and to space… The same with cloud formation in general: higher temperatures in the afternoon often lead to cloud formation up to thunderstorms…
This is something you can’t solve with programs like Modtran. Modtran only shows the “resistance” of the radiative part, all other influences being equal (which never is the case…).
But I have the impression that you overestimate the influence of CO2: the direct influence of a CO2 doubling in the full 70 km air column on the radiation balance gives a change of 2.9 W/m2 in outgoing radiation if you go from pre-industrial 290 ppmv to 580 ppmv. You can restore the radiation output by increasing the ground temperature with 0.9°C. That is all…
Not that accurate, as Modtran never was intended to use it in that way, but probably not far off. Be it that – again – this is without any positive (according to the models) and negative (according to the skeptics) feedbacks…
richardscourtney says:
August 8, 2014 at 10:59 am
Those “huge diurnal changes” prove that local “vegetation” can sequester all such emitted CO2 because it does. So, how do you answer – n.b. answer and not evade – the question.
Simple answer: the huge diurnal changes don’t prove that local vegetation can absorb all passing by extra “human” CO2 (or from any other sources).
That is because the uptake is limited by a lot of other things: in the first place sunlight: less sunlight, less uptake, more sunlight, more uptake. Water, minerals, fertilizers, temperature (too low, too high)… all limit the uptake of more CO2.
100 ppmv extra (30% above pre-industrial) in the atmosphere increased the uptake with 1.5 GtC/year (0.7 ppmv) or slightly above 1% of the seasonal carbon cycle in the biosphere. Thus one need a lot of extra CO2 in the atmosphere to give a significant difference in uptake…
Richard
Thanks for your reply.
As a result of the article on Historic variations in carbon dioxide that I wrote (referenced above) Ernst joined in on the comments and we had a number of conversations privately by email.
He was quite excited about a forthcoming paper in which he had selected a number of what he considered the most reliable readings, but then shortly after he died.
Are you aware of the content of what might have been the last paper he wrote?
tonyb
climatereason:
At August 8, 2014 at 12:01 pm you ask me concerning Beck
You surprise me that he had completed another paper before he died. I know he was working on calculations of ‘background CO2’ from a variety of sources and this could be considered to be an extension of the paper he co-authored with Massen, but I was not aware that he had completed this. And he did not tell me about another paper.
Richard
Ferdinand Engelbeen:
re your post at August 8, 2014 at 11:47 am.
That does not compute. Either the anthropogenic CO2 is a trivial and insignificant addition to the large natural fluctuations or it is important and significant.
In your original post at August 8, 2014 at 3:19 am you said
Clearly, if “local CO2 concentrations are hardly influenced by humans” then nearby CO2 sequestration is “hardly influenced by humans”.
But you now say
If the uptake is significantly limited then your previous assertion of “local CO2 concentrations are hardly influenced by humans” cannot be true. And if that previous assertion is true then the limitations you now assert cannot be relevant.
In other words, your two assertions refute each other.
Richard
richardscourtney says:
August 8, 2014 at 12:24 pm
Please Richard,
– The local biosphere uptake is hardly influenced by local emissions of human CO2, as that depends of the local increase of CO2 caused by humans, which in general is small.
– The local biosphere uptake may be influenced by the global increase of 30% of CO2, if other necessities are not the limiting factor.
– The global increase of CO2 is the sum of all local emissions and local uptakes.
– The global biosphere uptake is influenced by the total increase of 30% of CO2: 1.3% more uptake than release.
I don’t see any discrepancy between all these items.
Richard
When the big storm hits us on Sunday you might have some spare time indoors. If so you might be interested to read through the article and the comments in my article here from 2010
http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2010/03/06/historic-variations-in-co2-measurements/
Many regulars joined in including David Hoffer, de witt Payne, Hans Erren and Ferdinand.
Ernst joined in for the first time at comment 42 . He makes references to a number of his papers including one to his new work, which might of course merely be an amplification of something he had already written.
Tonyb
Ferdinand Engelbeen says:
August 8, 2014 at 1:27 pm
richardscourtney says:
August 8, 2014 at 12:24 pm
Ferdinand, I fear we are ‘talking pa\st’ each other.
You say
Yes, and that is my point.
The natural variation is – as you say – so large that
. I agree. Ferdinand, please understand that I agree.
And, again, that is my point.
As I said
Therefore, there does not need to be a change to natural sequestration for ALL the anthropogenic emission to be sequestered locally because the anthropogenic emission is so small that “local CO2 concentrations are hardly influenced by humans”.
That is what your words suggest.
Richard
Tonyb:
I am replying to your post at August 8, 2014 at 2:35 pm.
I now don’t go out much except to attend medical appointments and to conduct worship. I will try to read your thread tomorrow.
Richard
richardscourtney says:
August 8, 2014 at 3:04 pm
Therefore, there does not need to be a change to natural sequestration for ALL the anthropogenic emission to be sequestered locally
Richard, you have it upside down: the local uptake is mainly caused by sunlight and a host of other influences, including the local CO2 pressure. If the local CO2 pressure is hardly increased by human emissions, there is hardly any increase in uptake.
The 30% increase of global CO2 caused a 1% increase in uptake globally.
If there was a 30% increase of local CO2 by humans, that in average would cause a 1% increase in local uptake, 99% of the human caused increase remaining in the atmosphere (as the plants make no differentiation in source of CO2).
Ferdinand Engelbeen:
I am replying to your post at August 9, 2014 at 12:20 am.
I am trying to be clear because it is very apparent that I have failed to communicate my points to you.
We are discussing a possibility which I have often pointed out and you refute.
The possibility is that all emissions of CO2 from human activities are sequestered locally and, therefore, do not directly contribute to the observed rise in atmospheric CO2 as measured e.g. at Mauna Loa.
You may be right in rejecting the possibility, so I could be wrong. I accept that.
It is why I wrote saying to you, “That is what your words suggest”.
If I knew you were wrong then I would have used the word “indicate” and not “suggest”.
But you refuse to consider the possibility that you may be wrong.
You say to me
There does not need to be more than “hardly any increase in uptake” for all the human emissions to be sequestered locally. This is because – as you say – the human emissions are so small that “local CO2 concentrations are hardly influenced by humans”.
Importantly, “local” is wherever the emissions are dispersed by winds: “local” may extend for hundreds of miles from the human emission sources and the human emissions can be sequestered wherever they reach.
I dispute that a change of plant growth by 1% could be detected. However, we know that crop production has increased by much more than 1%. People emit CO2 and grow crops near where they live.
Also, plants on land are not the only sequestrations: CO2 is also sequestered by biota in ocean, by ocean waters and by soil.
The possibility is real that all emissions from human activities are sequestered local to where they are emitted. And if this possibility is true, then the emissions of CO2 from human activities do not directly contribute to the observed rise in atmospheric CO2 as measured e.g. at Mauna Loa.
Determination of whether the possibility is real or not requires much more empirical data and NOT adoption of assumptions.
Richard
Richard,
It seems difficult to show you the reason why most of the human emissions (as mass, not as original molecules) end up in the atmosphere…
The uptake by plants is for a part influenced by the local CO2 pressure. That is independent of the source of the CO2. If the local CO2 pressure is enhanced the total uptake will increase somewhat, but that depends of the other circumstances.
In optimal circumstances, the average increase of crop yield is 50% for a CO2 doubling. Take that figure as granted.
If the human emissions are dispersed over a large area, the local CO2 levels near crops may be increased say with 10% (far overblown, but it shows the possible changes).
That gives in optimal circumstances an increase of 5% in CO2 uptake by these crops, thus also 5% of the “human” CO2, as for the plants there is no difference in CO2 of whatever origin (except for the isotope composition, but that is a very small percentage). Thus at maximum 5% of the “human” CO2 is extra absorbed, 95% remains in the atmosphere. Again, not as original molecules, but as mass.
Thus there is no reason that all or even a large percentage of human CO2 is absorbed locally by vegetation. Most of it remains in the atmosphere.
Additional remark:
Also, plants on land are not the only sequestrations: CO2 is also sequestered by biota in ocean, by ocean waters and by soil.
Biota in the oceans are hardly influenced by CO2 in the atmosphere, as CO2 in ocean waters is more than abundant present, far more than needed by even algal blooms. CO2 is not a limiting factor in oceans.
The bio-activity in soils is mostly release of CO2 from the decay of fallen leaves, stems, wood,… of previous years…
Tonyb:
At August 8, 2014 at 2:35 pm you wrote
I have read your essay and the thread. This is my response.
I note that during the thread discussion Ernst Beck said he was writing a new paper, and he died during the discussion. This fits with my understanding – stated above – that he was preparing but had not completed another paper at the time of his death.
I found your essay to be interesting and informative. I commend it to all.
I especially liked a quotation your essay provide from a paper published in 1912 and your comment on it. You say
I agree, and the “friction” gives me confidence that good work was being conducted: the protagonists would have exposed the faults of each other.
There was good debate in the ensuing thread.
Davidmhoffer gave a clear and balanced assessment throughout the thread, and people lacking time for a full reading of it may wish to search for his contributions.
Ernst Beck made good defence of his work until his demise. The thread went off-topic after his demise. His defence is clearly demonstrated by this post where Ernst Beck wrote
The main opposition to Beck’s views was provided by Steve Fitzpatrick and DeWitt Payne. Their main argument seems to be that high historic CO2 levels in the atmosphere could not have happened because the ice core data says it did not happen and evidence in contradiction (e.g. stomata data) should be ignored.
Eli Rabbett and Ferdinand Engelbeen joined the thread at a late stage but the real discussion had ended by then and was straying onto e.g. ocean acidification. Neither said anything unexpected.
In summation, I enjoyed your informative essay and I commend it and the subsequent thread to all. Importantly, I am grateful that you pointed me to some of the last words from Ernst.
Richard
Ferdinand Engelbeen:
At August 9, 2014 at 4:55 am you write
No, it is not “difficult” because I fully understand your opinion, and I also know why it is wrong as I have repeatedly explained to you.
But that is not the present discussion.
However, you would be forced to accept the possibility that your opinion may be wrong if you were to acknowledge the possibility of the present discussion: i.e. the possibility that all emissions of CO2 from human activities are sequestered locally and, therefore, do not directly contribute to the observed rise in atmospheric CO2 as measured e.g. at Mauna Loa.
Richard
Ferdinand Engelbeen:
The difficulty of getting you to see possibilities other than your opinion is demonstrated by your post at August 9, 2014 at 5:00 am which says in total
You have everything backwards.
The issue is NOT the affect of CO2 in the air on sequestration mechanisms.
The issue IS the affect of sequestration mechanisms on CO2 in the air.
Hence, for example, it is not relevant whether CO2 is or is not a limiting factor in oceans.
Richard
Tonyb:
I have posted my reply to your request that I read your essay and its associated thread. My reply is stuck in moderation (possibly because it names some contributors to the thread) so I write this because you may want to look out for it.
Richard
Richard
Thanks for your comments. The article and the comments arguing both sides of the debate remain interesting and relevant. I thought your homing in on the Kreusler quote was especially interesting.
The jury is still out on this one I feel. I remain concerned about the use of ice cores in the same way as tree ring proxies seem inappropriate as a temperature measure.
I remain unconvinced that many famous scientists utilising a co2 measurement regime, started decades or centuries before their analysis, could get it so wrong right up to the start of the atomic age. . Yet Keeling apparently got it right immediately.
tonyb
richardscourtney says:
August 9, 2014 at 5:20 am
Richard, you wrote:
CO2 is also sequestered by biota in ocean, by ocean waters and by soil.
and now:
The issue is NOT the affect of CO2 in the air on sequestration mechanisms.
The issue IS the affect of sequestration mechanisms on CO2 in the air.
Sequestering in my English means uptake. Biota in the oceans do take CO2 away from the oceans, which have plenty of CO2 available. That may or may not give an extra sink of CO2 (they are sinks for CO2, but mainly from simple solubility), but that is not very relevant for the point under discussion: that human CO2 is captured in the neighborhood of its release, which is hardly the case for the oceans.
And soil bacteria are a huge source of CO2, not a sink…