Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
In a recent interchange over at Joanne Nova’s always interesting blog, I’d said that the slow changes in the sun have little effect on temperature. Someone asked me, well, what about the cold temperatures during the Maunder and Dalton sunspot minima? And I thought … hey, what about them? I realized that like everyone else, up until now I’ve just accepted the idea of cold temperatures being a result of the solar minima as an article of faith … but I’d never actually looked at the data. And in any case, I thought, what temperature data would we have for the Maunder sunspot minimum, which lasted from 1645 to 1715? So … I went back to the original sources, which as always is a very interesting ride, and I learned a lot.
It turns out that this strong association of sunspot minima and temperature is a fairly recent development. Modern interest in the Maunder sunspot minimum was sparked by John Eddy’s 1976 publication of a paper in Science entitled “The Maunder Minimum”. In that paper, Eddy briefly discusses the question of the relationship between the Maunder sunspot minimum and the global temperature, viz:
The coincidence of Maunder’s “prolonged solar minimum” with the coldest excursion of the “Little Ice Age” has been noted by many who have looked at the possible relations between the sun and terrestrial climate (73). A lasting tree-ring anomaly which spans the same period has been cited as evidence of a concurrent drought in the American Southwest (68, 74). There is also a nearly 1 : 1 agreement in sense and time between major excursions in world temperature (as best they are known) and the earlier excursions of the envelope of solar behavior in the record of 14C, particularly when a 14C lag time is allowed for: the Sporer Minimum of the 16th century is coincident with the other severe temperature dip of the Little Ice Age, and the Grand Maximum coincides with the “medieval Climatic Optimum” of the 11th through 13th centuries (75, 76). These coincidences suggest a possible relationship between the overall envelope of the curve of solar activity and terrestrial climate in which the 11-year solar cycle may be effectively filtered out or simply unrelated to the problem. The mechanism of this solar effect on climate may be the simple one of ponderous long-term changes of small amount in the total radiative output of the sun, or solar constant. These long-term drifts in solar radiation may modulate the envelope of the solar cycle through the solar dynamo to produce the observed long-term trends in solar activity. The continuity, or phase, of the 11-year cycle would be independent of this slow, radiative change, but the amplitude could be controlled by it. According to this interpretation, the cyclic coming and going of sunspots would have little effect on the output of solar radiation, or presumably on weather, but the long-term envelope of sunspot activity carries the indelible signature of slow changes in solar radiation which surely affect our climate (77). [see paper for references]
Now, I have to confess, that all struck me as very weak, with more “suggest” and “maybe” and “could” than I prefer in my science. So I thought I’d look to see where he was getting the temperature data to support his claims. It turns out that he was basing his opinion of the temperature during the Maunder minimum on a climate index from H. H. Lamb, viz:
The Little Ice Age lasted roughly from 1430 to 1850 … if we take H. H. Lamb’s index of Paris London Winter Severity as a global indicator.
After some searching, I found the noted climatologist H. H. Lamb’s England winter severity index in his 1965 paper The Early Medieval Warm Epoch And Its Sequel. He doesn’t give the values for his index, but I digitized his graph. Here are Lamb’s results, showing the winter severity in England. Lower values mean more severe winters.
So let me pose you a small puzzle. Knowing that Eddy is basing his claims about a cold Maunder minimum on Lamb’s winter severity index … where in Lamb’s winter severity index would you say that we would find the Maunder and Dalton minima? …
Figure 1. H.H. Lamb’s index of winter severity in England.
As you can see, there is a reasonable variety in the severity of the winters in England. However, it is not immediately apparent just where in there we might find the Maunder and Dalton minima, although there are several clear possibilities. So to move the discussion along, let me reveal where they are:
Figure 2. As in Figure 1, but with the dates of the Maunder and Dalton minima added.
As we might expect, the Maunder minimum is the coldest part of the record. The Dalton minimum is also cold, but not as cold as the Maunder minimum, again as we’d expect. Both of them have warmer periods both before and after the minima, illustrating the effect of the sun on the … on the … hang on … hmmm, that doesn’t look right … let me check my figures …
…
…
…
… uh-oh
…
…
Well, imagine that. I forgot to divide by the square root of minus one, so I got the dates kinda mixed up, and I put both the Maunder and the Dalton 220 years early … here are the actual dates of the solar minima shown in Lamb’s winter severity index.
Figure 3. H.H. Lamb’s England winter severity index, 1100-1950, overlaid with the actual dates of the four solar minima ascribed to that period. Values are decadal averages 1100-1110,1110-1120, etc., and are centered on the decade.
As you can see …
• The cooling during the Wolf minimum is indistinguishable from the two immediately previous episodes of cooling, none of which get much below the overall average.
• The temperature during the Sporer minimum is warmer than the temperature before and after the minimum.
• The coldest and second coldest decades in the record were not associated with solar minima.
• The fastest cooling in the record, from the 1425 decade to the 1435 decade, also was not associated with a solar minimum.
• Contrary to what we’d expect, the Maunder minimum warmed from start to finish.
• The Dalton minimum is unremarkable in any manner other than being warmer than the decade before the start and the decade after the end of the minimum. Oh, and like the Maunder, it also warmed steadily over the period of the minimum.
Urk … that’s what Eddy based his claims on. Not impressed.
Let me digress with a bit of history. I began this solar expedition over a decade ago thinking, along with many others, that as they say, “It’s the sun, stupid!”. I, and many other people, took it as an unquestioned and unexamined “fact” that the small variations of the sun, both the 11-year cycles and the solar minima, had a discernible effect on the temperature. As a result, I spent endless hours investigating things like the barycentric movement of the sun. I went so far as to write a spreadsheet to calculate the barycentric movement for any period of history, and compared those results to the temperatures.
But the more I looked, the less I found. So I started looking at the various papers claiming that the 11-year cycle was visible in various climate datasets … still nothing. To date, I’ve written up and posted the results of my search for the 11-year cycle in global sea levels, the Central England Temperature record, sea surface temperatures, tropospheric temperatures, global surface temperatures, rainfall amounts, the Armagh Observatory temperatures, the Armagh Observatory daily temperature ranges, river flows, individual tidal stations, solar wind, the 10Beryllium ice core data, and some others I’ve forgotten … nothing.
Not one of them shows any significant 11-year cycle.
And now, for the first time I’m looking at temperature effects of the solar minima … and I’m in the same boat. The more I look, the less I find.
However, we do have some actual observational evidence for the time period of the most recent of the minima, the Dalton minimum, because the Berkeley Earth temperature record goes back to 1750. And while the record is fragmentary and based on a small number of stations, it’s the best we have, and it is likely quite good for comparison of nearby decades. In any case, here are those results:
Figure 4. The Berkeley Earth land temperature anomaly data, along with the Dalton minimum.
Once again, the data absolutely doesn’t support the idea of the sun ruling the temperature. IF the sun indeed caused the variations during the Dalton minimum, it first made the temperature rise, then fall, then rise again to where it started … sorry, but that doesn’t look anything like what we’d expect. For example, if the low spot around 1815 is caused by low solar input, then why does the temperature start rising then, and rise steadily until the end of the Dalton minimum, while the solar input is not rising at all?
So once again, I can’t find evidence to support the theory. As a result, I will throw the question open to the adherents of the theory … what, in your estimation, is the one best piece of temperature evidence that shows that the solar minima cause cold spells?
Now, a few caveats. First, I want to enlist your knowledge and wisdom in the search, so please just give me your one best shot. I’m not interested in someone dumping the results of a google search for “Maunder” on my desk. I want to know what YOU think is the very best evidence that solar minima cause global cooling.
Next, don’t bother saying “the Little Ice Age is the best evidence”. Yes, the Maunder occurred during the Little Ice Age (LIA). But the Lamb index says that the temperature warmed from the start of the Maunder until the end. Neither the Maunder’s location, which was quite late in the LIA, nor the warming Lamb shows from the start to the end of the Maunder, support the idea that the sun caused the LIA cooling.
Next, please don’t fall into the trap of considering climate model results as data. The problem, as I have shown in a number of posts, is that the global temperature outputs of the modern crop of climate models are nothing but linear transforms of their inputs. And since the models include solar variations among their inputs, those solar variations will indeed appear in the model outputs. If you think that is evidence for solar forcing of temperature … well, this is not the thread for you. So no climate model results, please.
So … what do you think is the one very best piece of evidence that the solar minima actually do affect the temperature, the evidence that you’d stand behind and defend?
My regards to you all,
w.
[UPDATE] In the comments, someone said that the Central England Temperature record shows the cooling effects of the solar minima … I’m not finding it:


As you can see, there is very little support for the “solar minima cause cool temperatures” hypothesis in the CET. Just as in the Lamb winter severity data and the Berkeley Earth data, during both the Dalton and Maunder minima we see the temperature WARMING for the last part of the solar minimum. IF the cause is in fact a solar slump … then why would the earth warm up while the sun is still slumping? And in particular, in the CET the Dalton minimum ends up quite a bit warmer than it started … how on earth does this support the “solar slump” claim, that at the end of the Dalton minimum it’s warmer than at the start?
The Usual Request: I know this almost never happens, but if you disagree with something that I or someone else has said, please have the common courtesy to QUOTE THEIR EXACT WORDS that you disagree with. This prevents much confusion and misunderstanding.
Data: Eddy’s paper, The Maunder Minimum
Lamb’s paper, The Early Medieval Warm Epoch And Its Sequel
Berkeley Earth, land temperature anomalies
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Willis,
Nice investigative work. Here are three things I have picked up over time that might give you further territory to explore on this subject. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of these points because I have not looked up the data myself.
1. The sunspot population apparently follows Earth’s seasons with the local maximums occurring near the equinoxes.
2. Surface water flow rates follow the inverse of the sunspot cycles delayed by 44 years.
3. The sunspots may correlate with higher temperature because they both arise from the same mechanism, not because sunspots cause the higher temperatures. The Little Ice Age did occur and the sunspot minimums occurred during the Little Ice Age. That in itself may be 100% correlation if the time scales for both to exhibit themselves are on the order of the length of the LIA. Or, it may be just coincidental.
Good Hunting
Joe
sturgishooper says:
June 23, 2014 at 9:21 pm
I’m sorry, but you may NOT speak for tonyb. He is quite able to speak for himself. He is also free to post under his own name if he wishes. Your fantasies about what he would feel are a meaningless sick joke. Obviously, he prefers being anonymous or he’d use his name.
As to how much time it would take to unearth his secrets, why on earth would this be a concern to me? You seem to have missed the point entirely. I am NOT INTERESTED in piercing anyone’s veil on anonymity, regardless whether it takes me five years or five seconds, and regardless whether or not you claim they wouldn’t mind in the slightest, honest, they wouldn’t.
Like I said … you don’t seem to have even the most primitive understanding of respect for someone’s desire to be anonymous.
w.
kadaka (KD Knoebel) says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:21 pm
By Wolf Number, I meant the method of counting before the Svalgaard team which they’re trying to change.
lsvalgaard says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:27 pm
IMO the problem is not that you’re forced to a new approach, but that you’re trying to force your approach on others. Maybe too glib, but IMO, your desire for a new approach is scientific, but your attempt to force a consensus on your colleagues is not only unscientific but antiscientific. If your approach is correct, time will show it so. Science advances by the death of adherents of the previous paradigm. I’m not sure that your answer to the problems which you have IMO correctly identified is the right answer.
For example, Galileo, like you, made important contributions, but was wrong in other important ways. He at least did not want to, or at least lacked the power to, enforce his new views on others. Quite the opposite. Only the evidence could show him right or wrong, as it did in time both ways.
Rud Istvan says:
June 23, 2014 at 9:24 pm
Rud, was there some part of me saying QUOTE MY WORDS that escaped your notice? I see that you are accusing me of something, but I have no idea what it is. Metaphors about “digging holes against my own fan base” mean nothing. Who in my “fan base” am I “digging against”, and exactly how am I doing that?
You seem to be hard of reading today, so read my lips—if you disagree with something I said, quote it or go away. I won’t deal with that kind of vague handwaving and unreferenced, unclear claims.
w.
Willis Eschenbach says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:32 pm
It should be a concern of yours, since you sought to denigrate him as anonymous, just as your engage in ad hominem against all who dare question your obiter dicta. If Tony Brown wants to object to my allegedly taking his full name in vain, I hope he will. But as usual, you’re trying to divert attention from your substantive failings with a side issue.
In the past few years, several disciplines have convened to discuss the onset of the LIA. Yes, it is controversial. And some researchers pull it back even further in time.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2011GL050168/abstract;jsessionid=9677FE1390FDB6F5C161F921AEB6F180.f04t03
sturgishooper says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:37 pm
IMO the problem is not that you’re forced to a new approach, but that you’re trying to force your approach on others.
We are not forced to a new approach. We have discovered flaws in the historical data and are correcting them. The flaws are clear, obvious, for all to see and understand and are easy to correct. In this sense, if we wish to do science we are forced to correct the flawed record.
Science advances by the death of adherents of the previous paradigm.
No, by overwhelming new data or insights, e.g. Quantum Mechanics, Plate Tectonics, Expanding Universe, …
thingadonta says:
June 23, 2014 at 9:30 pm
Climate scientists ignore lags? How many cross-correlations have you seen me do, which explicitly include lags? And a cross-correlation of your example solar and melting ice will indeed show the match.
Or what about my analysis of the models, showing that they are simply a lagged transform of the inputs?
And of course, any spectral analysis includes lags, because it is looking at cycles whether they are lagged or not … i.e. a lagged 11-year cycle is still an 11-year cycle. So those analyses also include lags.
The claim that climate scientists “completely ignore” lags is totally untrue. Here’s a typical statement, one of literally thousands in the myriad of studies:
Lags are “completely ignored” in climate science? Don’t make me laugh. They are a major focus of study, nothing happens instantly, and climate scientists are well aware of that.
w.
JPG says:
June 23, 2014 at 9:47 pm
Good question, JPG. They are said to start at the minimum before the first low sunspot cycle, and end at the minumum after the last low cycle. As a result, the +/- is more accurate in modern times, less so in the 1700s, and pretty sketchy prior to 1600.
w.
sturgishooper says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:37 pm
I’m not sure that your answer to the problems which you have IMO correctly identified is the right answer.
Your uncertainty may just be ignorance, so let us try the Socratic Method:
1) If you discover that a single observer [out of dozens] inflates his count by counting bigger spots with a higher weight than others [e.g. a big spot is counted as five spots], would you not undo his inflation by reverting to count all spots singly in order to align him with all the other observers?
Pamela Gray says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:18 pm
So you now have walked back from “the largest eruption in the last 7000 years” to “one of the largest”. Big difference. It still pales against Tambora.
I have no problem with a VEI 7 eruption around 1258, although the paper you cited hardly settles the issue. There have been at least two VEI 7s since then, ie Tambora (~150 cubic kilometers of tephra) and the also enigmatic 1452/53 event (36 to 96 km^3), both estimated about equal to or larger than the presumed Indonesian 1258 eruption (40 km^3).
But what does a VEI 7 at c. 1258, if it happened, have to do with the start of the Little Ice Age about a century later?
lsvalgaard says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:47 pm
I was just quoting you, who said that “The revised SSN [or Wolf Number as we shall call it] is based on careful comparisons and review by many experts, so is forced upon us by the data. We have little choice or wiggle room” and that “The flaws are clear, obvious, for all to see and understand and are easy to correct. In this sense, if we wish to do science we are forced to correct the flawed record.” If my use of “approach” was the wrong word, I apologize.
lsvalgaard says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:54 pm
If you want to get Socratic on my ass, then how about this?
If I want to stop counting bigger spots with a higher weighting than others, should I then also count single large spots the same as single small spots, rather than trying to find a proper weighting system?
(Asking questions in this way is actually Sophistic, not Socratic, but you can be forgiven for making the same mistake as law schools.)
I freely admit that compared to your knowledge and understanding of sun spots, I am ignorant, but that’s beside the point as long we both know what we’re talking about. Which maybe I don’t.
sturgishooper says:
June 23, 2014 at 9:50 pm
No, it’s the claimed connection between the 11-year sunspot cycle and climate that is 200 years old. The connection between long-term sunspot minima and temperature, which is what this post is about, is more modern. Surely you can see that these are different subjects, which is why one is called “11-year sunspot cycles” and the other is called “solar minima”.
w.
“sturgishooper says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:55 pm”
I think you will find the Lake Taupo erruption in New Zealand in 180AD dwarfs Tambora.
gymnosperm says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:01 pm
It was just a humorous excuse, purporting to be the reason that I’d misidentified the Maunder and Dalton by 220 years …
All the best,
w.
sturgishooper says:
June 23, 2014 at 11:07 pm
If I want to stop counting bigger spots with a higher weighting than others, should I then also count single large spots the same as single small spots, rather than trying to find a proper weighting system?
If everybody else [including Wolf] counted single large spots the same as single small spots [i.e. regardless of size] then to maintain a homogeneous dataset over time you must do just that. The proper weighting scheme to be compatible with the rest of the historical record is no weighting.
(Asking questions in this way is actually Sophistic, not Socratic, but you can be forgiven for making the same mistake as law schools.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method
sturgishooper says:
June 23, 2014 at 11:07 pm
If I want to stop counting bigger spots with a higher weighting than others, should I then also count single large spots the same as single small spots, rather than trying to find a proper weighting system?
If everybody else [including Wolf] counted single large spots the same as single small spots [i.e. regardless of size] then to maintain a homogeneous dataset over time you must do just that. The proper weighting scheme to be compatible with the rest of the historical record is ‘no weighting’.
sturgishooper says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:08 pm
QUOTE MY WORDS, I’m reluctant to guess what you are talking about. But on the off chance you are talking about the correlation between the Greenland and Antarctic 10Be, run the numbers yourself and report your results. I’ve done that and linked to it above, including links to the datasets so you can’t complain on that regard … so where’s your calculation of the correlation?
w.
lsvalgaard says:
June 23, 2014 at 11:15 pm
The proper weighting scheme to be compatible with the rest of the historical record is ‘no weighting’.
To continue with Socrates: do you agree with the above?
If so, should we not reduce the lone observers count to compensate for the overcount?
Please compare.
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/strat-trop/gif_files/time_pres_WAVE1_MEAN_ALL_NH_2013.gif
http://www.solen.info/solar/images/cycle24.png
Hoser says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:17 pm
Well, that’s all of that comment that I read.
Hoser, if you want a man to pay attention to you and respond to your objections, don’t start your very first comment with a snarky insult. It marks you clearly as a man looking for a fight rather than a discussion. And I don’t have time to faff around with anonymous internet popups who are looking for a fight rather than a discussion, not enough hours in the day to screw around with jerks like that.
w.
You cannot use any of the data supplied by NOAA, GISS, hadcrut, BEST etc to do ANY analysis. Its all fraudelent, but.If you wnat to keep using it for your analysis go ahead.
https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2014/06/23/noaa-and-nasa-data-alterations-are-global/plus all his other analysis which I as I scientist consider 100% valid.The data is all there to see and analyze plus all the articles from the past
Willis Eschenbach says:
June 23, 2014 at 9:25 pm
Terry Jackson says:
June 23, 2014 at 7:13 pm
If I were looking for an indicator to relate weather to the human experience, I would look at the Growing Degree Days.
Thanks, Terry. If you have a citation to a dataset, I’m happy to look at it.
w.
Willis: It is a relatively recent number. It may be possible to tease an approximation out of old to ancient records of crop prices and volumes. It also does not account for drought. Does this suggest tree rings from the breadbasket? (wink) I know of no index, and creating it would be tedious and time consuming. I am not a volunteer. The historic record shows the ebb and flow of the ancient societies.
Each important crop has a Minimum Degree Days number for ripening. The number eliminates anomalies, highs, lows, averages and focuses on the warmth needed to produce a crop. It also eliminates any consideration of winter.
The LIA and crop success are, I suspect, very related. The people could tolerate cold winters if the crops, and food, were abundant. H.H.Lamb notes evidence of retreat from higher elevations and colder growing temps.
Your quest shall be forever hindered by a lack of records unless you resort to the ancient food and drought records. They are not accurate to within one hundredth degree of anything, but they are accurate for living conditions.
Regards:
Terry
lsvalgaard says:
June 23, 2014 at 10:20 pm
Thanks, Leif. Near as I can tell, sturgishooper just makes things up if he doesn’t know them. Gotta say, though, that his conspiracy theories about the evil scientists who are working to distort the sunspot numbers are hilarious.
Oh, well … I suppose that as long as he keeps a couple spare rolls of tinfoil on hand it will work out all right …
w.
Matthew R Marler writes “I wouldn’t rule that out, but there isn’t the supporting/testing evidence either. Or is there?”
No, its missing evidence and that alone doesn’t support the argument that the sun impacts on the climate. What it does support, however, is the argument that we dont have enough information to rule out the sun as a climate changing force.