Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I thought I was done with sunspots … but as the well-known climate scientist Michael Corleone once remarked, “Just when I thought I was out … they pull me back in”. In this case Marcel Crok, the well-known Dutch climate writer, asked me if I’d seen the paper from Nir Shaviv called “Using the Oceans as a Calorimeter to Quantify the Solar Radiative Forcing”, available here. Dr. Shaviv’s paper claims that both the ocean heat content and the ocean sea surface temperature (SST) vary in step with the ~11 year solar cycle. Although it’s not clear what “we” means when he uses it, he says:
“We find that the total radiative forcing associated with solar cycles variations is about 5 to 7 times larger than just those associated with the TSI variations, thus implying the necessary existence of an amplification mechanism, though without pointing to which one.” Since the ocean heat content data is both spotty and incomplete, I looked to see if the much more extensive SST data actually showed signs of the claimed solar-related variation.
To start with, here’s what Shaviv2008 says about the treatment of the data:
Before deriving the global heat flux from the observed ocean heat content, it is worth while to study in more detail the different data sets we used, and in particular, to better understand their limitations. Since we wish to compare them to each other, we begin by creating comparable data sets, with the same resolution and time range. Thus, we down sample higher resolution data into one year bins and truncate all data sets to the range of 1955 to 2003.
I assume the 1955 start of their data is because the ocean heat content data starts in 1955. Their study uses the HadISST dataset, the “Ice and Sea Surface Temperature” data, so I went to the marvelous KNMI site and got that data to compare to the sunspot data. Here are the untruncated versions of the SIDC sunspot and the HadISST sea surface temperature data.
Figure 1. Sunspot numbers (upper panel) and sea surface temperatures (lower panel).
So … is there a solar component to the SST data? Well, looking at Figure 1, for starters we can say that if there is a solar component to SST, it’s pretty small. How small? Well, for that we need the math. I often start with a cross-correlation. A cross-correlation looks not only at how well correlated two datasets might be. It also shows how well correlated the two datasets are with a lag between the two. Figure 2 shows the cross-correlation between the sunspots and the SST:
Figure 2. Cross-correlation, sunspots and sea surface temperatures. Note that they are not significant at any lag, and that’s without accounting for autocorrelation.
So … I’m not seeing anything significant in the cross-correlation over full overlap of the two datasets, which is the period 1870-2013. However, they haven’t used the full dataset, only the part from 1955 to 2003. That’s only 49 years … and right then I start getting nervous. Remember, we’re looking for an 11-year cycle. So results from that particular half-century of data only represent three complete solar cycles, and that’s skinny … but in any case, here’s cross-correlation on the truncated datasets 1955-2003:
Figure 3. Cross-correlation, truncated sunspots and sea surface temperatures 1955-2003. Note that while they are larger than for the full dataset, they are still not significant at any lag, and that’s without accounting for autocorrelation.
Well, I can see how if all you looked at was the shortened datasets you might believe that there is a correlation between SST and sunspots. Figure 3 at least shows a positive correlation with no lag, one which is almost statistically significant if you ignore autocorrelation.
But remember, in the cross-correlation of the complete dataset shown back in Figure 2, the no-lag correlation is … well … zero. The apparent correlation shown in the half-century dataset disappears entirely when we look at the full 140-year dataset.
This highlights a huge recurring problem with analyzing natural datasets and looking for regular cycles. Regular cycles which are apparently real appear, last for a half century or even a century, and then disappear for a century …
Now, in Shaviv2008, the author suggests a way around this conundrum, viz:
Another way of visualizing the results, is to fold the data over the 11-year solar cycle and average. This reduces the relative contribution of sources uncorrelated with the solar activity as they will tend to average out (whether they are real or noise).
In support of this claim, he shows the following figure:
Figure 4. This shows Figure 5 from the Shaviv2008 paper. Of interest to this post is the top panel, showing the ostensible variation in the averaged cycles.
Now, I’ve used this technique myself. However, if I were to do it, I wouldn’t do it the way he has. He has aligned the solar minimum at time t=0, and then averaged the data for the 11 years after that. If I were doing it, I think I’d align them at the peak, and then take the averages for say six years on either side of the peak.
But in any case, rather than do it my way, I figured I’d see if I could emulate his results. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues right away when I started to do the actual calculations. Here’s the first issue:
Figure 5. The data used in Shaviv2008 to show the putative sunspot-SST relationship.
I’m sure you can see the problem. Because the dataset is so short (n = 49 years), there are only four solar minima—1964, 1976, 1986, and 1996. And since the truncated data ends in 2003, that means that we only have three complete solar cycles during the period.
This leads directly to a second problem, which is the size of the uncertainty of the results of the “folded” data. With only three full cycles to analyze, the uncertainty gets quite large. Here are the three folded datasets, along with the mean and the 95% confidence interval on the mean.
Figure 6. Sea surface temperatures from three full solar cycles, “folded” over the 11-year solar cycle as described in Shaviv2008
Now, when I’m looking for a repetitive cycle, I look at the 95% confidence interval of the mean. If the 95%CI includes the zero line, it means the variation is not significant. The problem in Figure 6, of course, is the fact that there are only three cycles in the dataset. As a result, the 95%CI goes “from the floor to the ceiling”, as the saying goes, and the results are not significant in the slightest.
So why does the Shaviv2008 result shown in Figure 4 look so convincing? Well … it’s because he’s only showing one standard error as the uncertainty in his results, when what is relevant is the 95%CI. If he showed the 95%CI, it would be obvious that the results are not significant.
However, none of that matters. Why not? Well, because the claimed effect disappears when we use the full SST and sunspot datasets. Their common period goes from 1870 through 2013, so there are many more cycles to average. Figure 7 shows the same type of “folded” analysis, except this time for the full period 1870-2013:
Figure 7. Sea surface temperatures from all solar cycles from 1870-2013, “folded” over the 11-year solar cycle as described in Shaviv2008
Here, we see the same thing that was revealed by the cross-correlation. The apparent cycle that seemed to be present in the most recent half-century of the data, the apparent cycle that is shown in Shaviv2008, that cycle disappears entirely when we look at the full dataset. And despite having a much narrower 95%CI because we have more data, once again there is no statistically significant departure from zero. At no time do we see anything unexplainable or unusual at all
And so once again, I find that the claims of a connection between the sun and climate evaporate when they are examined closely.
Let me be clear about what I am saying and not saying here. I am NOT saying that the sun doesn’t affect the climate.
What I am saying is that I still haven’t found any convincing sign of the ~11-year sunspot cycle in any climate dataset, nor has anyone pointed out such a dataset. And without that, it’s very hard to believe that even smaller secular variations in solar strength can have a significant effect on the climate.
So, for what I hope will be the final time, let me put out the challenge once again. Where is the climate dataset that shows the ~11-year sunspot/magnetism/cosmic rays/solar wind cycle? Shaviv echoes many others when he claims that there is some unknown amplification mechanism that makes the effects “about 5 to 7 times larger than just those associated with the TSI variations” … however, I’m not seeing it. So where can we find this mystery ~11-year cycle?
Please use whatever kind of analysis you prefer to demonstrate the putative 11-year cycle—”folded” analysis as above, cross-correlation, wavelet analysis, whatever.
Regards,
w.
My Usual Request: If you disagree with someone, myself included, please QUOTE THE EXACT WORDS YOU DISAGREE WITH. This prevents many flavors of misunderstanding, and lets us all see just what it is that you think is incorrect.
Subject: This post is about the quest for the 11-year solar cycle. It is not about your pet theory about 19.8 year Jupiter/Saturn synoptic cycles. If you wish to write about them, this is not the place. Take it to Tallbloke’s Talkshop, they enjoy discussing those kinds of cycles. Here, I’m looking for the 11-year sunspot cycles in weather data, so let me ask you kindly to restrict your comments to subjects involving those cycles.
Data and Code: I’ve put the sunspot and HadISST annual data online, along with the R computer code, in a single zipped folder called “Shaviv Folder.zip“
Konrad says “Empirical experiment proves DWLWIR cannot heat nor slow the cooling rate of water that is free to evaporatively cool. ”
I suspect this may be correct but I’ve yet to see the “proof”. Can you point me to the proof you are referring to, it would be most useful to see some proof.
Where is the climate dataset that shows the ~11-year sunspot/magnetism/cosmic rays/solar wind cycle?
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Perhaps it doesn’t exist because you are looking at the wrong information. the strength of the cycle varies inversely as the cycle length, and temperature integrates this signal.
thus, you will not see correlation at 11 years, except by accident. instead look for correlation between cycle length and inverse rate of temperature change.
ie; shorter cycles make it more warmer, longer cycles make is less warmer, as compared to average length cycles and historical trajectory of temperature.
any correlation between SSN and any temp set would be very difficult to find
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looking for a correlation on a 11 year cycle is not the same as looking for “any correlation”.
Greg Goodman says:
June 7, 2014 at 8:03 am
“Maybe a better mathematical model is a convolutional model ? ”
See the above link. Exactly what I did with AOD.
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Very interesting analysis. 2 questions come to mind immediately :
1) Could the shape of the impulse response be applied for other volcanic events & associated AOD changes (or is each volcanic event have it’s own impulse response dependent on size of eruption, composition of ejecta, height of eruption, geographic location, etc)?
2) Could the same principle be applied to other forcings, such as solar variation or GHGs, the big difference being that the forcing isn’t a time spike like a volcanic eruption but a longer, time varying input ? (and of course , would it be possible to untangle various forcings or alternatively developing a net forcing time series & and figure out what the atmospheric filter is … if it does in fact exist).
It is encouraging that a convolutional model can be applied to AOD with meaningful results. it does suggest a convolutional model could be applied to other forcings as well.
Maybe a better mathematical model is a convolutional model
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for example, most would agree that the distance traveled in a car is related to the gas pedal. But often when the gas pedal is pressed hardest you are barely moving, and other times when your foot is off the gas is when you are traveling the fastest. So if one looks for simple correlation it may not be at all obvious that a relationship exists..
fred, don’t misquote by omission. What David Riser said was:
“I would propose that if you are right, that the temp has a significant regulating mechanism, then any correlation between SSN and any temp set would be very difficult to find as long as there is sufficient energy into the system. ”
There is strong regulation by negative feedbacks in the tropics, less so outside the tropics. That is why it was not difficult at all for me to find the correlation in the first SST dataset I used.
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=958
There is a clear 10,11,21 year peaks in the power spectrum . There is also a very strong correlation on the centennial scale the peaks at a lag of about 15 years. This tells us something about the degree of temporal accumulation and the depths of water involved.
There are multiple, significant correlations present but anyone expecting a nice simple 11y pattern, invariant over centuries, to jump out and hand itself up on a plate is being incredibly simplistic, and showing little comprehension of the complexities of climate ( and solar ) variability.
The effect of the current cycle is clearly visible in the growth of sea ice in the south. Moreover, the temperature of the ocean around Antarctica suggests a further progress of ice.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seaice.anomaly.antarctic.png
Please look at the year 2008 (an extremely low minimum) and an increase in ice.
“Willis & others have shown that a solar signal isn’t readily discernible is various atmospheric / oceanic data sets. Perhaps the problem is the assumption of some sort of direct correlation.”
PERHAPS THERE IS NO FRICKING PROBLEM
The sun varies by a small number of watts from peak to peak
The climate doesnt respond to these small variations.
AS IN DUH
occam says……
The approximately 11 year solar cycle is the witnessed cyclic variation of solar characteristics caused by internal solar processes. It is impossible that these variations can have zero affect on the Earth and in fact all the planets. If that affect is undiscovered it is because we’re looking for the wrong evidence or it is lost in the noise. I would suggest that the entire affect is spread across so many regimes that it is lost in the noise. If one does not understand the mechanisms of conversion of solar cycles to phenomena and have available instruments to observe and validate those phenomena, the affect can never be discovered. That is were we are.
The consequences of 11 year solar variation are hidden in plain sight and we may never be able to isolate them. I think too that an 11 year cycle is unimportant because: there is no accumulative impact that we can identify, and, we have bigger fish to fry.
What we do see is correlation between variations in the ~11 year cycle over time to time varying terrestrial phenomena and that is important.
Jeff L says: Very interesting analysis. 2 questions come to mind immediately :
Once you have the system response it should be applicable to all “forcings” in similar circumstances. The nice thing about Mt P was that it was big enough to be distinguishable for all the rest that is going on. This at least gives us an estimation of how the system responds.
After that it can be applied to smaller, faster or slower variations. Note what I did was based on tropical data so should be applicable to tropical response to other equatorial volcanoes. It should be applicable to calculate the tropical response to slowly increasing GHG forcing and/or solar variability.
I think this is how the question should be being investigated. I’m still a little uncertain of things like at which point the additional SW input that is seen since AOD settled, starts to take effect. That is why it’s still labelled as a draft version.
The extra-tropical AOD data seems less complete which is why I have not gone into that yet.
I see two things from that so far, the relaxation model indicates earlier values of AOD forcing from 1992 that were based on atmospheric physics were correct and have just been jerry-rigged since to make the models work better without changing the _preconceived_ assumptions about positive feedbacks. Secondly, that there are strong negative feedbacks in the tropics which take out just about any “forcing” changes within a year or two.
A third thing which came out of that was the warming effect of volcanoes that apparently no one has “noticed” yet.
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=955
An extra 2 W/m2 of SW is significant in all this.
dp says : “The consequences of 11 year solar variation are hidden in plain sight and we may never be able to isolate them. I think too that an 11 year cycle is unimportant because: there is no accumulative impact that we can identify, and, we have bigger fish to fry. ”
HUH? I just have. I’ve also ‘isolated’ a centennial scale signal that kinda needs to taking into account before wetting the bed every night for fear that they sky will burn tomorrow.
This seems plain to me. If the data has to be juggled, folded, sieved, lagged, stretched, pulled, and cut into bite size pieces of taffy in order to see a solar affect, wouldn’t that lead one to conclude that natural noisy intrinsic variation swallows a solar affect so completely that it can be appropriately disregarded in the search for a temperature trend driver? Am I missing something?
The Earth, with its many ways of storing and belching heat, seems quite capable of hourly, daily, seasonally, and long termally (backdoor alliteration is more fun than plain ol’ alliteration) changing the temperature all by itself-ally.
@Jeff L BTW the same principal should be applicable to work out CO2 / SST relationship. Rising SST will cause a degree of out-gassing. I don’t think anyone has properly assessed this yet. Murray Salsby sounded like he had something to present but never did.
He was sounding like he was saying it was all due to out-gassing which I think is improbable, just as improbable as ignoring it being the right answer 😉
The interplay of the both orthogonal in-phase responses are equally important. Neither can be left out.
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=399
I started to investigate the CO2 question here:
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=625
Here too: http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=233
Pamela Gray: “Am I missing something? ”
Most likely all the stuff above you are choosing to ignore, in continuing with conclusions you’d already made.
” If the data has to be juggled, folded, sieved, lagged, stretched, pulled, and cut into bite size pieces of taffy in order to see a solar affect…..”
Try cross-correlation, much quicker.
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=958
Something I have heard of affecting weather is the 22 year Hale cycle, which the 11-year cycle is a half-cycle of. The sun’s magnetic polarity flips one way during one 11-year cycle, and flips back during the next. One thing that seems to happen every other minimum of the 11-year cycle is notably harsh winters from eastern North America to northwestern Europe. This does seem to be mostly a regional effect, whose impact on global temperature datasets is likely to be insignificant.
Another solar variation issue could be the mass of the oceans smoothing out the 11-year cycle more than longer period ones.
Now I said earlier I was curious about the harmonic nature of the long term periods.
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=956
This seems to reflect the more or less triangular up and down ramps in the cross correlation function. This reminds me of the “acceleration” reported in the recent Jevrejeva paper on global sea level, that turned out be not a long term acceleration as suggested in the abstract but a rather sudden change of direction around 1850-1870.
Add the 130-140 year period of the SST/SSN correlation to that and we see it points to the present. May be something to look into.
This was a good, straightforward focused analysis on a single research hypothesis. If sunspots affect earth surface temperature, the effect appears somewhere else. It is helpful sometime to absorb simple results before trying to rescue the research hypothesis by rewriting it.
thanks again.
Greg I’ve read your stuff. Your stuff actually prompted the allegorical back-door alliterated reference to making taffy. The ingredients are the same beginning to end. The taffy shape and texture is what humans do to boiled sugar and water.
Earth’s climate and weather beginning to end is boiled sugar and water. Solar enthusiasts love to manipulate it to make it look different than what it is: a piled mound of boiled sugar and water.
Nicholas Schroeder, I have two IR Guns, both from Lowes the cheaper version and the more expensive one, Southwire is the name brand and yes they are very accurate when compared to the engine gauges, refrigerator, oven, engine intake, exhaust, water salinity gauge, cooking thermometer, etc. and yes mercury gauges. It is amazing how many thermometers I have on board.
The bottom line though, and I have tested it with the cooking thermometer, the surface temperature of the ocean does not change due to the daily solar cycle, clouds, lack of clouds, etc.
The surface temperature responds directly to wind speed (evaporation), almost exclusively.
Direct solar radiation, not to mention back radiation has zero effect on the surface temperature. The only effect insolation has on the surface temperature is on how quickly the surface temperature responds to changes in wind speed.
I have been studying this for two years now from the States down through the Bahamas, to the Bottom of the Caribbean. I am currently in Georgetown and the surface water temperature is 82.2 degrees and it was 82.2 degrees this morning before dawn. We had a little squall come through and the temperature dropped a few degrees while it was raining, but immediately jumped back up after the squall passed.
Let us know when you’ve isolated the 11 year cycle that is the topic of this article.
dp: “Let us know when you’ve isolated the 11 year cycle that is the topic of this article.”
Let me know when you’ve read what I’ve posted so far.
Pam, thanks for the cookery lessons and literary diversions. Don’t hesitate to come back if you have anything to say pertaining to science.
Willis.
I seem to remember many years ago on this site, someone saying that the length of the sunspot cycle was more important regards climate, rather than the number of spots.
Would it be worth renewing the analysis, using cycle-length as the primary criteria?
Cheers,
R