Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I thought I was done with sunspots … but as the well-known climate scientist Michael Corleone once remarked, “Just when I thought I was out … they pull me back in”. In this case Marcel Crok, the well-known Dutch climate writer, asked me if I’d seen the paper from Nir Shaviv called “Using the Oceans as a Calorimeter to Quantify the Solar Radiative Forcing”, available here. Dr. Shaviv’s paper claims that both the ocean heat content and the ocean sea surface temperature (SST) vary in step with the ~11 year solar cycle. Although it’s not clear what “we” means when he uses it, he says:
“We find that the total radiative forcing associated with solar cycles variations is about 5 to 7 times larger than just those associated with the TSI variations, thus implying the necessary existence of an amplification mechanism, though without pointing to which one.” Since the ocean heat content data is both spotty and incomplete, I looked to see if the much more extensive SST data actually showed signs of the claimed solar-related variation.
To start with, here’s what Shaviv2008 says about the treatment of the data:
Before deriving the global heat flux from the observed ocean heat content, it is worth while to study in more detail the different data sets we used, and in particular, to better understand their limitations. Since we wish to compare them to each other, we begin by creating comparable data sets, with the same resolution and time range. Thus, we down sample higher resolution data into one year bins and truncate all data sets to the range of 1955 to 2003.
I assume the 1955 start of their data is because the ocean heat content data starts in 1955. Their study uses the HadISST dataset, the “Ice and Sea Surface Temperature” data, so I went to the marvelous KNMI site and got that data to compare to the sunspot data. Here are the untruncated versions of the SIDC sunspot and the HadISST sea surface temperature data.
Figure 1. Sunspot numbers (upper panel) and sea surface temperatures (lower panel).
So … is there a solar component to the SST data? Well, looking at Figure 1, for starters we can say that if there is a solar component to SST, it’s pretty small. How small? Well, for that we need the math. I often start with a cross-correlation. A cross-correlation looks not only at how well correlated two datasets might be. It also shows how well correlated the two datasets are with a lag between the two. Figure 2 shows the cross-correlation between the sunspots and the SST:
Figure 2. Cross-correlation, sunspots and sea surface temperatures. Note that they are not significant at any lag, and that’s without accounting for autocorrelation.
So … I’m not seeing anything significant in the cross-correlation over full overlap of the two datasets, which is the period 1870-2013. However, they haven’t used the full dataset, only the part from 1955 to 2003. That’s only 49 years … and right then I start getting nervous. Remember, we’re looking for an 11-year cycle. So results from that particular half-century of data only represent three complete solar cycles, and that’s skinny … but in any case, here’s cross-correlation on the truncated datasets 1955-2003:
Figure 3. Cross-correlation, truncated sunspots and sea surface temperatures 1955-2003. Note that while they are larger than for the full dataset, they are still not significant at any lag, and that’s without accounting for autocorrelation.
Well, I can see how if all you looked at was the shortened datasets you might believe that there is a correlation between SST and sunspots. Figure 3 at least shows a positive correlation with no lag, one which is almost statistically significant if you ignore autocorrelation.
But remember, in the cross-correlation of the complete dataset shown back in Figure 2, the no-lag correlation is … well … zero. The apparent correlation shown in the half-century dataset disappears entirely when we look at the full 140-year dataset.
This highlights a huge recurring problem with analyzing natural datasets and looking for regular cycles. Regular cycles which are apparently real appear, last for a half century or even a century, and then disappear for a century …
Now, in Shaviv2008, the author suggests a way around this conundrum, viz:
Another way of visualizing the results, is to fold the data over the 11-year solar cycle and average. This reduces the relative contribution of sources uncorrelated with the solar activity as they will tend to average out (whether they are real or noise).
In support of this claim, he shows the following figure:
Figure 4. This shows Figure 5 from the Shaviv2008 paper. Of interest to this post is the top panel, showing the ostensible variation in the averaged cycles.
Now, I’ve used this technique myself. However, if I were to do it, I wouldn’t do it the way he has. He has aligned the solar minimum at time t=0, and then averaged the data for the 11 years after that. If I were doing it, I think I’d align them at the peak, and then take the averages for say six years on either side of the peak.
But in any case, rather than do it my way, I figured I’d see if I could emulate his results. Unfortunately, I ran into some issues right away when I started to do the actual calculations. Here’s the first issue:
Figure 5. The data used in Shaviv2008 to show the putative sunspot-SST relationship.
I’m sure you can see the problem. Because the dataset is so short (n = 49 years), there are only four solar minima—1964, 1976, 1986, and 1996. And since the truncated data ends in 2003, that means that we only have three complete solar cycles during the period.
This leads directly to a second problem, which is the size of the uncertainty of the results of the “folded” data. With only three full cycles to analyze, the uncertainty gets quite large. Here are the three folded datasets, along with the mean and the 95% confidence interval on the mean.
Figure 6. Sea surface temperatures from three full solar cycles, “folded” over the 11-year solar cycle as described in Shaviv2008
Now, when I’m looking for a repetitive cycle, I look at the 95% confidence interval of the mean. If the 95%CI includes the zero line, it means the variation is not significant. The problem in Figure 6, of course, is the fact that there are only three cycles in the dataset. As a result, the 95%CI goes “from the floor to the ceiling”, as the saying goes, and the results are not significant in the slightest.
So why does the Shaviv2008 result shown in Figure 4 look so convincing? Well … it’s because he’s only showing one standard error as the uncertainty in his results, when what is relevant is the 95%CI. If he showed the 95%CI, it would be obvious that the results are not significant.
However, none of that matters. Why not? Well, because the claimed effect disappears when we use the full SST and sunspot datasets. Their common period goes from 1870 through 2013, so there are many more cycles to average. Figure 7 shows the same type of “folded” analysis, except this time for the full period 1870-2013:
Figure 7. Sea surface temperatures from all solar cycles from 1870-2013, “folded” over the 11-year solar cycle as described in Shaviv2008
Here, we see the same thing that was revealed by the cross-correlation. The apparent cycle that seemed to be present in the most recent half-century of the data, the apparent cycle that is shown in Shaviv2008, that cycle disappears entirely when we look at the full dataset. And despite having a much narrower 95%CI because we have more data, once again there is no statistically significant departure from zero. At no time do we see anything unexplainable or unusual at all
And so once again, I find that the claims of a connection between the sun and climate evaporate when they are examined closely.
Let me be clear about what I am saying and not saying here. I am NOT saying that the sun doesn’t affect the climate.
What I am saying is that I still haven’t found any convincing sign of the ~11-year sunspot cycle in any climate dataset, nor has anyone pointed out such a dataset. And without that, it’s very hard to believe that even smaller secular variations in solar strength can have a significant effect on the climate.
So, for what I hope will be the final time, let me put out the challenge once again. Where is the climate dataset that shows the ~11-year sunspot/magnetism/cosmic rays/solar wind cycle? Shaviv echoes many others when he claims that there is some unknown amplification mechanism that makes the effects “about 5 to 7 times larger than just those associated with the TSI variations” … however, I’m not seeing it. So where can we find this mystery ~11-year cycle?
Please use whatever kind of analysis you prefer to demonstrate the putative 11-year cycle—”folded” analysis as above, cross-correlation, wavelet analysis, whatever.
Regards,
w.
My Usual Request: If you disagree with someone, myself included, please QUOTE THE EXACT WORDS YOU DISAGREE WITH. This prevents many flavors of misunderstanding, and lets us all see just what it is that you think is incorrect.
Subject: This post is about the quest for the 11-year solar cycle. It is not about your pet theory about 19.8 year Jupiter/Saturn synoptic cycles. If you wish to write about them, this is not the place. Take it to Tallbloke’s Talkshop, they enjoy discussing those kinds of cycles. Here, I’m looking for the 11-year sunspot cycles in weather data, so let me ask you kindly to restrict your comments to subjects involving those cycles.
Data and Code: I’ve put the sunspot and HadISST annual data online, along with the R computer code, in a single zipped folder called “Shaviv Folder.zip“
Frederick, Greg, and others,
I just wanted to lend my support for the integral/derivative relationship between flux and temperature. I have had success modeling the integral of flux vs. temperature, and it’s a reasonable assumption.
Computationally, there are benefits to integration vs. derivatives (the integral is just the sum), but mathematically, the fundamental theorem of calculus ensures us that we should be able to go either way.
RACookPE1978 says:
June 7, 2014 at 12:05 am
Thanks, RA. I’m looking at the 11-year cycle for a specific reason—it should be the most visible cycle, because the longer (e.g. 66-year or 102-year or whatever) cycles are all much smaller than the 11-year cycle.
The problem facing your and other similar hypotheses is explaining why the earth should respond to a comparatively weak e.g. 66-year solar cycle, while at the same time not detectably respond to the much stronger 11-year cycle. We know that the answer is not “thermal inertial”, because the temperature of the ocean can and does change radically over the period of a couple months. So there is no “thermal mass” impediment to responding to an 11-year cycle.
Once you’ve solved that question, and can show (not claim but show) why the earth should respond to a combination of 11-year cycles, but NOT to the 11-year cycles themselves, your hypothesis will be worth investigating. Until then, I’ll continue to look for the traces of the largest and clearest solar cycle in the climate data … and that’s the 11-year sunspot cycle.
Best regards, see you in Las Vegas,
w.
Steven Mosher says:
June 7, 2014 at 9:14 am
“Willis & others have shown that a solar signal isn’t readily discernible is various atmospheric / oceanic data sets. Perhaps the problem is the assumption of some sort of direct correlation.”
PERHAPS THERE IS NO FRICKING PROBLEM
The sun varies by a small number of watts from peak to peak
The climate doesnt respond to these small variations.
AS IN DUH
occam says……
==============
Occam says…. hand-waving and razors don’t mix.
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=956
If Willis finished the job and did a FT of the correlation he performed, he probably would have found a similar result. The degree of correlation was probably not helped by Shaviv’s choice of an over-processed, interpolated “ice and sea” dataset but just by eye I could see enough to suspect what I found when I looked in detail.
Sure, there’s no fricking problem. There’s a correlation matching circa 10,11,22, and centennial changes in SST and SSN. What’s the fricking ?
That’s just an interested result. That could only be / not be a “FRICKING PROBLEM” if someone had an agenda and and entrenched position to defend.
I just find it interesting because previous poking around had not produced such a clear result.
Willis’ attempt to reproduce Shaviv 2008 was interesting and informative too.
Ferdinand Engelbeen says:
June 7, 2014 at 1:04 am
Ferdinand, I’m getting tired of picking spitballs off the wall. The link you gave CLAIMS a relationship between the ICOADS dataset and sunspots. It doesn’t do a single lick of math. Not one. It doesn’t do any analysis. Not a bit. Nor does it provide a single link to the underlying datasets. It is a very poorly designed lesson plan, obviously done by someone who is not a teacher, aimed at the eighth-grade / high school level.
I am not interested in people coming up with every person on the internet who has made a claim about the sun. I am interested in actual analyses.
If you think that such links are worth following, then I strongly encourage you to follow them. Go and get the ICOADS data, do the analysis, and THEN come and tell us about it. But don’t bother me with your data dredge of everything on the internet that comes up when you google “sunspots sst”. I followed your first link, and it was a total waste of my time. Won’t make that mistake twice.
w.
Jupiter? Jupiter & Saturn? 11.86 years & +/- 22 year cycles round the sun (wrt the Earth)? No takers?
Speaking of sunspots, just got an alert that there is some activity going on. 3 rapidly developing spots pointing towards earth this weekend. One has X level character (AR2080)
The CME from the 4th just came through.
http://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/
http://stereo-ssc.nascom.nasa.gov/beacon/beacon_secchi.shtml
Willis states, “What I am saying is that I still haven’t found any convincing sign of the ~11-year sunspot cycle in any climate dataset, nor has anyone pointed out such a dataset.”
Zhou & Tung (2013) found the cycle in their data set, ie tropospheric temperature observations. In a prior post, I read your questions about this paper, apparently based upon its abstract, but IMO the whole article is worth actually reading. Doing so would help answer your questions & respond to your general objections to “reanalysis”:
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JAS-D-12-0214.1
It costs $35. I’d send it to you except for this:
“The article you are purchasing is protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, displayed, or republished without the prior written permission of the Publisher and/or the copyright holder. The copyright holder is indicated on the front page of the article.”
Greg Goodman says:
June 7, 2014 at 1:21 am
I don’t understand this argument. Why would the climate respond to a weak 22-year signal but not to a strong 11-year signal? In any case, I’ve given you the data, so assuredly you’ve done the 22-analysis before opening your mouth. Show us your magic 22-year folding and how well it works.
Greg, as I recall you’re a smart guy … smart enough to know that such speculation without backup is useless on my threads. If you think that using dT/dt will show a better result, or that there is a 22-year cycle, then get up off of your moribund okole and demonstrate that to us.
I can’t tell you how tired I am of people with big mouths, beautiful theories, and not one dang thing to back them up. As I said in the head post, this is not the place for your and everyone else’s oh-so-brilliant speculation and oh-so-wise objections. If you think you can find the 11-year signal using dT/dt, then stop talking about it and GO DO IT!
Sorry to be so direct, Greg, but this is getting old.
w.
Ah, excellent. The actual analyses. As I said just above, I knew you were a smart guy.
Greg Goodman says:
June 7, 2014 at 2:32 am
A fourier analysis of a cross-correlation? Perhaps you could explain what that is supposed to show. Serious question, I just don’t understand the procedure. For example, try running cross-correlations of the sunspot data with random red noise … you’ll get peaks at ~11-year intervals. A fourier analysis will indeed show those 11-year cycles … but so what? That’s just what you get when you run a cross-correlation of sunspots with almost anything.

Also, you say that you find strong periods out to 170 years … but according to the data link that you attached to the graph (many thanks, that’s the mark of science), the data you are analyzing looks like this:
Gotta say, Greg, when a man claims he can detect a strong 170 year cycle from data that looks like that, I cease to take him seriously. That doesn’t pass the laugh test.
w.
Just for completeness, I thought I run hadISST “reanalysis” data through the same processing.
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=959
Not hugely different though they seem to have fuzzed out some (most) of the detail in the -10 to +10y lag range.
“Gotta say, Greg, ” Gotta say Willis , quote what I said , not what you think I said etc…..
David McKeever says:
June 7, 2014 at 2:52 am
Thanks, David. As I said, I’m glad to answer questions about my code, because I encourage people to run the data themselves. The “discrets” function is in the package “seewave”, which I thought was called by
require(seewave)
in the first couple of lines of the program. If not, you’ll need the seewave package.
w.
PS—To find the answer to such questions, I often google something like “discrets cran R”. Including “cran R” restricts the search and will generally find what I’m looking for.
herkimer says:
June 7, 2014 at 3:31 am
Thanks, herkimer. Since the oceans are 70% of the surface, of course the global temperature and the oceanic SST are very closely correlated … and? What does that have to do with the ~11-year sunspot cycle? What am I missing here?
w.
Greg Goodman says:
June 7, 2014 at 4:45 am
It should also be noted that is a clear anti-correlation with period of about 140 years and a lag of half that. That is a period of time, there is not enough data to suggest this is periodic as in cyclically repetitive.
Greg Goodman says:
June 7, 2014 at 2:32 am
The largest peak is at 170y and is ten times the magnitude of the peaks show in this detail.
Usual caveats about data length etc apply.
If you disagree with someone, myself included, please QUOTE THE EXACT WORDS YOU DISAGREE WITH. This prevents many flavors of misunderstanding, and lets us all see just what it is that you think is incorrect.
😉
Genghis says:
June 7, 2014 at 5:03 am
OK, now you’ve evoked the envy response in 87.34% of your readership …
I’ve pointed out the importance of the wind before, particularly as regards thunderstorms. The key piece of data is that evaporation rises linearly with windspeed. So if the wind goes from say 1 metre/second to 10 m/sec, the evaporation goes up by a factor of ten.
However, I wouldn’t say that the ocean surface temperatures are “controlled almost entirely by windspeed”. Particularly in the tropics, the clouds regulate the amount of energy entering the system. If you get a day with no clouds, SSTs will climb. On the other hand, a cloudy day followed by a clear night will lead to falling SSTs.
Dang … that sounds like one of those old snake oil remedies, that cures lumbago, arthritis, and liver disease.
Sadly, the climate is not that simple. I fear there is no “magic bullet” that explains everything.
Regards,
w.
PS—You claim that something “disproves climate change”. Ask yourself what that actually means given that climate has been changing since there has been climate …
W: “For example, try running cross-correlations of the sunspot data with random red noise … you’ll get peaks at ~11-year intervals. ”
That is correct, and it will represent the strength of the 11 y component in both SSN and the red noise.
If you think a lagged cross-correlation is meaningless, don’t do it.
You throw a 0.2 “significance” line across your CC . Both my ICOADS and hadISST plots show 11 and 22 y lagged peaks above that level. Showing significance by the criterion you adopt. Yet you seem to think there’s not a significant signal.
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=958
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=959
Actually a more rigorous effort should be made since one-size-fits-all does not count for determining significant levels of correlation. I’ll see if I can come up with something since that should be on my plots too.
Using 0.2 everywhere is an error I’ve pointed out before that you have not addressed beyond trying to throw the ball back in my court and carry on using 0.2 whatever length and nature of data is.
W: “…. the data you are analyzing looks like this:”
Fair point, but no. You’ve used “at least 30%” default option. I should have stated in the description somewhere that I used “at least 2%” coverage, to get a fuller set. I also have a script which fills minor breaks.
So, fair pick, thanks for pointing it out. But no, the data I’m processing is not a broken mess.
From milodonharlani on June 7, 2014 at 11:43 am:
Found it!
https://depts.washington.edu/amath/old_website/research/articles/Tung/journals/Zhou_and_Tung_2013_solar.pdf
Downloaded fine and complete. The link is on Tung’s publications page, where there’s also linked nearly everything else.
The notion that cross-correlation between noisy time-series needs to be “adjusted for autocorrelation” and has confidence limits independent of noise-level is straight out of Lewis Carroll.
Willis: “Ah, excellent. The actual analyses. As I said just above, I knew you were a smart guy.
Greg Goodman says:
June 7, 2014 at 2:32 am
http://climategrog.wordpress.com/?attachment_id=956
……”
So smart I’d done it and posted it 9 hours before you told me “directly” to get off my butt and do it.
I’ll take that as an almost apology 😉
Without worrying about the FT of CC for the moment. What information do you think can be derived from cross-correlation. You used it to support your impression that there is no solar signal, so you must expect that something could be there that was not.
I’m guessing you were looking for a peak that is above your 0.2 threshold (but I don’t want to puts words into your mouth, so please correct me if that’s wrong).
How do you interpret ISST vs SSN peaks getting above 0.25 ?
At issue here, besides the lack of observation in the temperature anomaly, is the reluctance of solar enthusiasts to first show that there are no other potential drivers that can serve as the energy behind temperature trends.
There is, and one that correlates much better with land temperatures. That would be ocean heat and its teleconnection with atmospheric processes (IE ENSO systems, clouds, large and small varying pressure systems, sudden events that produce aerosols, etc). The mechanism behind this is the heat storing capacity of the oceans along with Earth’s own filtering systems in the atmosphere, a capacity that has more than enough variables attached to it to take a steady state (relatively speaking) source and absorb it in varying amounts, and then belch it back out in varying amounts. I see no need for the Sun to vary in order for that process to work.
Willis what you think of Dansgaard-Oeschger cycle?
http://ossfoundation.us/projects/environment/global-warming/dansgaard-oeschger-events
http://epic.awi.de/13582/1/Bra2005e.pdf
Yes it’s very simple, the magnetic field of Jupiter, Saturn, the Sun and Uranus, modulate the magnetic field of the heliosphere and vary the amount of GCR impacts in the upper atmosphere of this planet and all others, and modulate the transparency. The 11 year sunspot cycle is nothing but an effect of the wobble caused by Jupiter alone, the longer term trends are associated with Saturn and Uranus and the way that they are coupled with the Suns magnetic field, and shield us from the galactic plane.
This is all you need to predict the future.
http://cosmicrays.oulu.fi/webform/monitor.gif
From ren on June 7, 2014 at 1:20 pm:
Gee, above he clearly said:
The Dansgaard-Oeschger events have an imagined periodicity of 1,470 years, thus do not appear to be the 11-yr sunspot solar cycle.
andywest2012 says:
June 7, 2014 at 5:25 am
Thanks, Andy. Haven’t seen it myself. I’ll take a look.
w.