
The answer to your question is in your article.
Guest opinion by David Hoffer
Carol, in your recent CNN opinion piece, the headline was “Why are we still debating climate change?”. The very first statement in the article that followed was “There is no debate”.
The answer to your question is actually right in your own article. I’ll get to that in a bit, please bear with me. I wanted to touch on your claim that there is no debate first. I’d like you to consider the following statement, which I provide with no intent of malice whatsoever, only as a means of making a point.
Carol Costello is stupid. There is no debate.
Now what would you think if you saw this in print, followed by a long explanation as to what is wrong with people who don’t agree, and a refusal to examine any facts related to the accusation? I imagine you’d be miffed. I imagine also that any examination of the facts would prove me wrong, I seriously doubt that such a statement would stand up to any fair debate of the matter. Which brings me to a question Carol:
If the facts supporting Climate Change are so obvious, should not debating the facts of the matter strengthen those facts? Just as you would be eager to prove that you are not, in fact, stupid, should you not be equally as eager to prove your opinion by engaging in factual debate?
While you ponder that, and keeping in mind that I did say the answer to your question is in your article and I would get to that, let’s examine the only fact upon which your argument rests, which is that there is a consensus among 97% of scientists. Well Carol, I read that study. Did you? I’m guessing not.
Carol, that study was done by Margaret Zimerman, who sent the survey to 10,257 Earth Scientists. Of those, 3,146 responded. Of those, Ms. Zimmerman excluded all but 77. That fact alone should have your journalistic instincts on high alert. But it gets worse. The two questions which lead to the 97% finding were:
Q1: “When compared with pre-1800s levels, do you think that mean global temperatures have generally risen, fallen, or remained relatively constant?” 76 of 79 (96.2%) answered “risen.”
Q2: “Do you think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures?” 75 of 77 (97.4%) answered “yes.”
The problem here Carol is that they should have gotten 100% to both questions. The earth has been warming since the Little Ice Age which was 400 years ago. So obviously the answer to the first question would be “risen” even if human influence was zero. As for the second question, you may be surprised to learn that all but a tiny fraction of skeptics agree that rising temperatures are, in part, due to human activity. You see Carol, the debate about climate change is not a simple matter of “yes” or “no”. It is much more nuanced than that. There are questions relating to order of magnitude of change, endangerment related to any change that does occur, and in regard to strategies of mitigation versus adaptation. That study did nothing to determine consensus opinion on any of the central matters of the climate debate. It is not only contrived, but nearly meaningless. But I digress.
You go on to quote studies categorizing the population. I said I’d show you the answer to your headline question in your own article. Well, here it is. Your article goes on to quote results from Anthony Leiserowitz, who categorizes the population as follows:
- Alarmed (16%)
- Concerned (27%)
- Cautious (23%)
- Disengaged (5%)
- Doubtful (12%)
- Dismissive (15%)
Well that hardly seems like a consensus. In fact you go on to claim that the Dismissives are a powerful, well funded, well organized lobby group who are muddying the debate. Well Carol, if the facts are so powerfully on one side of the debate, why begin your opinion piece by categorically insisting that there is no debate? If there is no debate, how is it that only 16% of the citizenry are alarmed? Why, by the definitions in your own article, do 82% of the people think that climate change is something that won’t, for various reasons, have a direct effect on their lives?
But most importantly Carol, if you want to change their minds, would not an open and honest debate of the facts be your most powerful weapon? Are you going to let me accuse you of being stupid, or would you like to prove me wrong?
Lastly Carol, you sum up your article on this statement:
“The good news is, those uninformed minority voices are being quieted by nature and by those who have powerful voices.”
Well Carol, on that second point, I will allow that you are correct. Powerful voices (like yours) are eager to stifle the debate. Oddly, your own article points out the importance of having one if you want the facts as you see them to prevail. Will you use your powerful voice to that end? Or shall we call you stupid, insist there is no debating the matter, and call it a day?
But more importantly Carol, the first part of your statement is wrong. It is a simple matter to see that when one looks at the data, all the predictions of the “consensus” science have failed. Arctic ice retreat has stopped, and Antarctic ice has hit record levels. On a global basis, hurricanes and tornadoes have declined in both frequency and severity. According to the temperature records kept by the “consensus” scientist themselves, the earth hasn’t warmed in close to two decades, despite ever rising levels of CO2. Nature in fact is taking sides in this debate, and not the side you seem to think.
Even the United Nations IPCC, which is consensus climate science central for the world, now admits in their recent report (IPCC AR5) that the climate models themselves are wrong. It is their expert opinion that sensitivity to CO2 lies well below the model estimates. What are the models based upon Carol, if not the science? And if the best scientists in the world, in their capacity as advisors to the United Nations and world governments alike, are collectively stating that the models and the science the models are built on are in doubt, does that not deserve public debate?
Even among the “consensus” scientists themselves Carol, there is now considerable doubt about the science. Does that not give you pause to reconsider your position?
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Theo Goodwin says:
February 26, 2014 at 2:22 pm
Point well taken; I for one have learned a lot about climate issues from WUWT and its many fine contributors, including yourself. However, my intended point was not to dismiss Mr. Hoffer but rather to attempt to initiate a WUWT dialog about how to gain greater traction in the climate debate. . . in which I dare say we are woefully inadequate! I would appreciate any comments you might have regarding my three enumerated points.
Best regards
Dan Backman
Ira Glickstein, PhD says:
February 26, 2014 at 1:17 pm
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Great to hear from you Ira! How’s Florida?
Appreciate the compliment, but I’m just not in the same league as you or Christopher Monkton or Willis. FYI, I’ve taken to keeping links to all of your articles in a text file. When someone disputes the greenhouse effect, I just say “here, read these” and paste the links in.
dmh
Ms Costello says that 97 % of all scentists agree, so be quiet, you stupids. Even the pope, He Who Know All, will eventually come out of the closet and tell us the Truth.
/sarc off.
It is obvious that (even?) Ms Costello sees the AGW as a religious matter.
Theo Goodwin says:
February 26, 2014 at 2:22 pm
One of the key strategies of the ASM V&V guidelines and those that we are adopting within the computational materials community is that verification and validation needs to be carried out hierarchically. This means that for a mechanical system V&V is starts at the lowest level of mechanical system; then builds towards subassemblies, and then finally to the full system. For materials systems (that I specialize in), one starts with fundamental processing physics models, towards microstructural evolution, and then finally towards models of properties, service performance and component life/reliabilitiy. The argument is that you can not reliably V&V a system without full understanding of V&V and uncertainty propagation among and between subelements of the system.
This is now becoming standard practice for engineering systems. Why don’t we ask/demand that climate modeling adhere to these burgeoning standards? And why are NASA and other agencies allowed to modify/manipulate data without oversight or governance by community accepted standards.
I don’t know the answers; but would like to think that a community such as WUWT might have some thoughts and thereby normalize our community into the mainstream
Best Regards
Dan
My biggest gripe with WUWT is that the majority of these posts do not contain links to claims being made. Often when I link posts from here to friends that are advocates of CAGW-Climate Change, their most often response is: “Why should I believe some blog post over peer reviewed literature? They don’t even cite their claims.” … or something like that.
For example, in David Hoffer’s piece here there is a link to Carol Costello’s CNN article, but…
1) Why not provide a link to Margaret Zimerman’s survey?
2) Why not provide a link showing the data in support of “Arctic ice retreat has stopped, and Antarctic ice has hit record levels. ”
3) Why not provide a link showing the data in support of “On a global basis, hurricanes and tornadoes have declined in both frequency and severity.”
4) Why not provide a ink showing the data in support of “According to the temperature records kept by the “consensus” scientist themselves, the earth hasn’t warmed in close to two decades, despite ever rising levels of CO2.”
5) Why not provide a link showing the data (or transcripts) in support of “Even the United Nations IPCC, which is consensus climate science central for the world, now admits in their recent report (IPCC AR5) that the climate models themselves are wrong. It is their expert opinion that sensitivity to CO2 lies well below the model estimates.”
I don’t mind investigating these things on my own time. But we’re engaged in an intellectual battle. I wish WUWT posters would take the time to include appropriate links. If they did, then these blogs posts would be much more persuasive to those people not already skeptical of CAGW-Climate Change.
Any thoughts?
DanMet’al says:
February 26, 2014 at 2:45 pm
Thanks for your very helpful response. I doubt that the readership of WUWT is in a position to undertake political action. From my point of view, the first thing that the readership should do is something that lightens the burdens of Watts, Eschenbach, Tisdale, and others. But I am a very practical type.
DanMet’al says:
February 26, 2014 at 3:07 pm
They seem to revel in their lack of standards. Those that you suggest might work fine. Some standards are desperately needed.
SDB says:
February 26, 2014 at 3:08 pm
…
Any thoughts?
Reasonable point. Most of the answers to your questions are probably in some other WUWT thread that has been discussed many times.
If you ever would like a specific link to something mentioned here, I suggest asking. There are great folks here and someone might be able to help.
For the Doran/Zimmerman survey, you might start here:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/10/an-oopsie-in-the-doranzimmerman-97-consensus-claim/
Theo Goodwin says:
February 26, 2014 at 3:11 pm
Theo – I truly thank you for your kind response(s). Maybe I’m overwrought. . . and maybe I’ve been fighting this battle (successfully I might add) for too long in my own discipline to have forgotten all the hurdles!
I hope we can leave it at that. . . but do recognize that V&V is not political it is technical and mathematical.
Best regards . . . no need to respond
Dan
SDB;
1) Why not provide a link to Margaret Zimerman’s survey?
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/10/an-oopsie-in-the-doranzimmerman-97-consensus-claim/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/11/20/the-97-consensus-myth-busted-by-a-real-survey/
2) Why not provide a link showing the data in support of “Arctic ice retreat has stopped, and Antarctic ice has hit record levels. ”
http://wattsupwiththat.com/reference-pages/sea-ice-page/
3) Why not provide a link showing the data in support of “On a global basis, hurricanes and tornadoes have declined in both frequency and severity.”
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/05/04/tornadoes-drop-to-new-record-alltime-low/
(also see IPCC AR5 Ch11 which declares that hurricane activity will be flat or in decline at least until 2100AD)
4) Why not provide a ink showing the data in support of “According to the temperature records kept by the “consensus” scientist themselves, the earth hasn’t warmed in close to two decades, despite ever rising levels of CO2.”
Many articles on this site
5) Why not provide a link showing the data (or transcripts) in support of “Even the United Nations IPCC, which is consensus climate science central for the world, now admits in their recent report (IPCC AR5) that the climate models themselves are wrong. It is their expert opinion that sensitivity to CO2 lies well below the model estimates.”
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/01/ipcc-silently-slashes-its-global-warming-predictions-in-the-ar5-final-draft/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/11/05/climate-models-worse-than-we-thought/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/02/10/95-of-climate-models-agree-the-observations-must-be-wrong/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/02/03/new-paper-arctic-amplification-of-temperature-not-primarily-due-to-albedo-changes-climate-models-need-to-be-reworked/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/20/our-climate-models-are-aglow-with-whirling-transient-nodes-of-thought-careening-through-a-cosmic-vapor-of-invention/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/09/now-its-the-fungi-carbon-footprint-that-isnt-in-climate-models/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/11/29/study-lack-of-cloud-physics-biased-climate-models-high/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/11/28/new-paper-climate-models-short-on-physics-required-for-realistic-simulation-of-the-earth-system/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/13/national-academy-of-sciences-climate-models-still-decades-away-from-being-useful/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/24/quote-of-the-week-on-the-usefulness-of-models/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/11/quote-of-the-week-nature-on-the-failure-of-climate-models/
Hope those are helpful.
JohnWho,
Thanks for the reply. I don’t need help finding in other WUWT posts the material I mentioned in my comment above. Finding that material on my own is not difficult. And it’s beside the point…
My comment above is specifically about trying to get people, who are not already skeptics, to engage skeptical material. Consider my comment above constructive criticism toward WUWT and those who post here.
Global warming is a no-brainer for scientists and reporters.
Being a proponent means you get grants from the government to “study” the issue if you are a scientist, and a raise from the rich network owners if you are a reporter. All you have to worry about is criticism from the relatively small blogosphere.
Being a critic means you get no funding, loss of income, and other reporters and media types will trip over each other to attack and denounce you simultaneously on all other networks.
4. Many articles on this site, also check out http://www.woodfortrees.org/ where you can plot any of the major temperature records on any time frame you wish against various parameters like co2 concentration. Werner Brozek reports regularly using those tools in articles like:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/01/25/another-year-another-nail-in-the-cagw-coffin-now-includes-december-data/
Let me elaborate on why the point I’m emphasizing is so important…
Most of my friends are liberal-progressives who faithfully believe in CAGW-Climate Change. I’ve shared WUWT links with them before and like i said above, they usually immediately dimiss it on grounds that it’s just a blog post and there are no citations to the claims.
Now, even if they decide to investigate some of the claims, the general psychological nature of humans is to engage in confirmation bias. If they read ““On a global basis, hurricanes and tornadoes have declined in both frequency and severity.” …. what they’re likely to do is google it and go looking for evidence that supports their already held beliefs. If they share that evidence with me, then I need to go find coutner evidence, and this back and forth usually ends quickly as they get tired with it.
My point about including links to all claims is strageic and tactical. The goal should be to MAKE IT EASY for advocates of CAGW-Climate Change to reconsider their belief. The best way to do that is to hold their hand, so to speak -> provide the links within the post.
DavidHoffer,
Thank you very much for the reply. I will document those links for future reference. But my point was broader (it’s elaborated on in my comment just above this).
SDB;
My comment above is specifically about trying to get people, who are not already skeptics, to engage skeptical material.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Apologies, I misunderstood your comment. The answer is that there are a plethora of articles already on WUWT with detailed explanations and references. The references pages itself has dozens of links to raw data directly from the data sources themselves. The idea of a forum like WUWT is to carry a variety of article types and styles. Different approaches appeal to different people. This was an opinion piece. Well, it was also bait, though I doubt that CNN or Carol Costello are likely to take the bait.
But bottom line is that if you want technical articles they are here. This was an opinion piece, and was written accordingly. In the happy event that it sparks engagement from the other side, demanding proof of my assertions, I’ll be happy to oblige. In the same vein, if someone is new to the debate, and says really? IPCC AR5 says that? Then I am also happy to oblige. But first you have to write an engaging article that gets enough attention that people want to know more, and that is all this particular article was intended to do.
Also, linking to actual articles like Zimmerman’s is not always practical. Many of them are behind pay walls for example.
what they’re likely to do is google it and go looking for evidence that supports their already held beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>
If you are having that type of discussion, my recommendation is to pre-empt them by providing links to source material. IPCC AR5 is on line. My system is to find on article on WUWT by searching for the issue at hand and then adding “AR5” to the search. Bingo, I get an article discussing that issue and how it is presented in AR5. But that’s now what i send to my friends. I use that article to find the relevant quote in AR5, find it in their documentation, and then send a link to THAT. Now they skip google and see if your claim about what AR5 actually says is true or not.
I do the same with the references page. All the links to the source material are there. WUWT is just a quick way to get to what I am looking for. If sea ice for example, I’ll go to the sea ice page, find one graph for Arctic, one for Antarctic, and send the links to the source material which is usually some prestigious government science body displaying graphs drawn directly from the satellite data. If they’re not prepared to accept what the actual data from the official sources says, then let them google to their heart’s content, there’s no persuading them.
davidmhoffer,
Point taken that this is an opinion piece and not a technical article. All I’m suggesting is at minimum footnotes or endnotes, with links to claims that are substantial. And this isn’t directed soley at you, but at WUWT in general.
From my experience dealing with friends – again mostly liberal-progressive advocates of CAGW-Climate Change – the biggest barrier I run into when sharing links from WUWT is a lack of directly linkable supporting evidence on claims being made. It’s important to keep in mind many of these people live in an echo chamber that constantly resonates fearmongering on this issue. Even a hint of skepticism is met with violent accusations back at me and the material I’m linking to.
How do we better spread the truth? Think strategically. Think tactically.
Keep up the good work.
SDB – here’s an example, took me 3 mins.
Arctic sea ice no longer in decline
U of Illinois, Arctic Climate Research Center
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seaice.anomaly.arctic.png
Antarctic setting new records, same source:
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seaice.anomaly.antarctic.png
davidmhoffer,
I appreciate the time your taking to respond. Again my point isn’t about how easy or difficult it is to find mainstream sources to back up claims being made. My point is about first impressions. I’m saying posts at WUWT would give a much more credible first impression to newcomers, especially those concerned about CAGW-Climate Change, if some form of links was offered within or at the end of posts for all the substantial claims being made. Take from this what you will. No big deal if you disagree or it’s not worth your time. It’s just my two cents.
The 97% consensus is that she is stupid. Would do well as a Greens politician in Australia.
EPIC smackdown!!!
your systematic, factual destruction of her argument exposes her ignorance and gives rise to your first premise actually being something that cant be dismissed.
+++++++++++++++
Pretty funny actually, well said
I agree completely with SDB about links. The majority of commenters here are scientists or engineers who know this stuff cold, but newbies, non-scientists, will engage and read further if the links and citations are there. And it has more heft if and when we forward these main articles to others to have the links in place. The main article then becomes “well-sourced.”
My wish is that someone would shut down Al Gore as effectively as this writer has caused Carol to be banished into the closet of irrevelavence. Mr. Gore makes money from his stupidity, poor Carol, hopefully will just stay in her closet, and shut up.