Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Among the papers in the Copernicus Special Issue of Pattern Recognition in Physics we find a paper from R. J. Salvador in which he says he has developed A mathematical model of the sunspot cycle for the past 1000 yr. Setting aside the difficulties of verification of sunspot numbers for say the year 1066, let’s look at how well their model can replicate the more recent record of last few centuries.
Figure 1. The comparison of the Salvador model (red line) and the sunspot record since 1750. Sunspot data is from NASA, kudos to the author for identifying the data.
Dang, that’s impressive … so what’s not to like?
Well, what’s not to like is that this is just another curve fitting exercise. As old Joe Fourier pointed out, any arbitrary wave form can be broken down into a superposition (addition) of a number of underlying sine waves. So it should not be a surprise that Mr. Salvador has also been able to do that …
However, it should also not be a surprise that this doesn’t mean anything. The problem is that no matter how well we can replicate the past with this method, it doesn’t mean that we can then predict the future. As the advertisements for stock brokers say, “Past performance is no guarantee of future success”.
One interesting question in all of this is the following: how many independent tunable parameters did the author have to use in order to get this fit?
Well, here’s the equation that he used … the sunspot number is the absolute value of
Figure 2. The Salvador Model. Unfortunately, in the paper he does not reveal the secret values of the parameters. However, he says you can email him if you want to know them. I passed on the opportunity.
So … how many parameters is he using? Well, we have P1, P2, P3, P4, F1, F2, F3, F4, N1, N2, N3, N4, N5, N6, N7, N8, L1, L2, L3, and L4 … plus the six decimal parameters, 0.322, 0.316, 0.284, 0.299, 0.00501, and 0.0351.
Now, that’s twenty tunable parameters, plus the six decimal parameters … plus of course the free choice of the form of the equation.
With twenty tunable parameters plus free choice of equation, is there anyone who is still surprised that he can get a fairly good match to the past? With that many degrees of freedom, you could make the proverbial elephant dance …
Now, could it actually be possible that his magic method will predict the future? Possible, I suppose so. Probable? No way. Look, I’ve done dozens and dozens and dozens of such analyses … and what I’ve found out is that past performance is assuredly no guarantee of future success.
So, is there a way to determine if such a method is any good? Sure. Not only is there such a method, but it’s a simple method, and we have discussed the method here on WUWT. And not only have we discussed the testing method, we’ve discussed the method with various of the authors of the Special Issue … to no avail, so it seems.
The way to test this kind of model is bozo-simple. Divide the data into the first half and the second half. Train your model using only the first half of the data. Then see how it performs on the second half, what’s called the “out of sample” data.
Then do it the other way around. You train the model on the second half, and see how it does on the first half, the new out-of-sample data. If you want, as a final check you can do the training on the middle half, and see how it works on the early and late data.
I would be shocked if the author’s model could pass that test. Why? Because if it could be done, it could be done easily and cleanly by a simple Fourier analysis. And if you think scientists haven’t tried Fourier analysis to predict the future evolution of the sunspot record, think again. Humans are much more curious than that.
In fact, the Salvador model shown in Figure 2 above is like a stone-age version of a Fourier analysis. But instead of simply decomposing the data into the simple underlying orthogonal sine waves, it decomposes the data into some incredibly complex function of cosines of the ratio of cosines and the like … which of course could be replaced by the equivalent and much simpler Fourier sine waves.
But neither one of them, the Fourier model or the Salvador model, can predict the future evolution of the sunspot cycles. Nature is simply not that simple.
I bring up this study in part to point out that it’s like a Fred Flintstone version of a Fourier analysis, using no less than twenty tunable parameters, that has not been tested out-of-sample.
More importantly, I bring it up to show the appalling lack of peer review in the Copernicus Special Issue. There is no way that such a tuned, adjustable parameter model should have been published without being tested using out of sample data. The fact that the reviewers did not require that testing shows the abysmal level of peer review for the Special Issue.
w.
UPDATE: Greg Goodman in the comments points out that they appear to have done out-of-sample tests … but unfortunately, either they didn’t measure or they didn’t report any results of the tests, which means the method is still untested. At least where I come from, “test” in this sense means measure, compare, and report the results for the in-sample and the out-of-sample tests. Unless I missed it, nothing like that appears in the paper.
NOTE: If you disagree with me or anyone else, please QUOTE WHAT YOU DISAGREE WITH, and let us know exactly where you think it went off the rails.
NOTE: The equation I show above is the complete all-in-one equation. In the Salvador paper, it is not shown in that form, but as a set of equations that are composed of the overall equation, plus equations for each of the underlying composite parameters. The Mathematica code to convert his set of equations into the single equation shown in Figure 2 is here.
BONUS QUESTION: What the heck does the note in Figure 1 mean when it says “The R^2 for the data from 1749 to 2013 is 0.85 with radiocarbon dating in the correlation.”? Where is the radiocarbon dating? All I see is the NASA data and the model.
BONUS MISTAKE: In the abstract, not buried in the paper but in the abstract, the author makes the following astounding claim:
The model is a slowly changing chaotic system with patterns that are never repeated in exactly the same way.
Say what? His model is not chaotic in the slightest. It is totally deterministic, and will assuredly repeat in exactly the same way after some unknown period of time.
Sheesh … they claim this was edited and peer reviewed? The paper says:
Edited by: N.-A. Mörner
Reviewed by: H. Jelbring and one anonymous referee
Ah, well … as I said before, I’d have pulled the plug on the journal for scientific reasons, and that’s just one more example.
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Bernd Felsche says:
January 22, 2014 at 6:49 am
Since the two equations are totally identical in results, and one can be freely transformed into the other, how are they different?
My friend, what you read is up to you and you alone. When you start blaming me because you didn’t read the entire post, sorry, I say goodbye. Come back when you realize that you are in charge of your eyeballs, not me.
w.
RJ’s calculations have been available (in .xls format) for more than 3 months.
Steven Mosher says:
January 22, 2014 at 2:21 pm
“Heres a good one. In 1988 Hansens model predicted increasing temperatures under all scenarios. Although he got the magnitude wrong he got the direction right. ”
Getting the magnitude right is the critical component of any prediction. It is what makes people consider taking action. So it is easy to understand Hansen eagerly erring on the high side.
It will rain tomorrow; 1 ” OK, 4 ” rethink your plans for the day
It will be windy tomorrow; 15 mph OK, 45 mph rethink your plans for the day
Gas prices will increase next month; 2 cents/gal OK, $1/gal rethink your driving habits
You will gain weight as you get older; 5 lbs OK, 30 lbs rethink your life insurance
There will be surf tomorrow; 2 ft stay home, 6 feet nice!
Thank you Willis; thank you Anthony; thank you “Pattern Recognition” scientists. Duking it out with your different definitions — trying to find a common ground or the specific failure — different hypotheses, statistics, math, this is what it is about. Continuing the scientific method. I hope the very hard, hurtful, feelings can heal. It is difficult enough to slug it out over scientific principles and methods, but when one holds a horribly falsified academic process called peer review sacred, the science can be lost.
Willis –
We can perhaps expand a bit on your comment about the spectrum (6:34 pm today), although I am certain you ARE right that it will show very little except the approx 11 year cycle. To clarify: Any “beat frequency” does NOT appear in the spectrum (as you observed). It certainly looks (to everyone!) like it should be there, but it ain’t. Consider the sum of two sine waves which beat, so A and B are close to being equal:
Sin(A) + Sin(B) = 2 Sin[(A+B)/2] Cos[(A-B)/2]
The left side is exactly THE spectrum, just the two similar frequencies A and B. The right side looks like the average frequency (A+B)/2 amplitude modulated (balanced modulated to be technical) by half the difference frequency. But it beats AT the difference frequency because there are two amplitude beats for each cycle of Cos[(A-B)/2]. So the beat frequency is the difference (A-B) as traditionally stated. But (A-B) is not in the spectrum [nor is (A-B)/2 ]. (A-B) is the repetition rate of the amplitude “bumps”.
Steven Mosher says:
January 22, 2014 at 5:25 pm
FrankK.
Last I checked its gone up since 1988. See how easy it is when u dont quantify things
——————————————————————————————-
?? Nonsense. He predicted it would keep rising beyond 2000 to 2030
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/15/james-hansens-climate-forecast-of-1988-a-whopping-150-wrong/
It hasn’t so far from 1998 to 2013. See how easy if you ignore the obvious!
The headline word in all the chorus of criticism of the PRP special edition is “nepotism”. And this word is wrongly understood. It means professional favouritism toward biological family members, not friends and colleagues.
More good news,
Morner was a thesis advisor to Jelbring,
http://www.pog.nu/03education/education.htm
How many publication rules does that break? Mashey is having a field day.
And for good measure, Roger did a nice post on the thesis
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/book-review-wind-driven-climate-doctoral-thesis-by-hans-jelbring/
Willis Eschenbach says:
January 22, 2014 at 6:34 pm
For what it’s worth, tallbloke, the Fourier transform of the sunspot cycle has no long-period peaks.
Which sunspot cycle did you transform Willis? you have 24 to choose from. Or do you mean the the fourier transform of the entire sunspot record? Surely you wouldn’t use such a blunt instrument on such delicate data. Actually, you would, to ‘show’ there’s ‘nothing there’. The same technique used in your analysis here:
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2013/08/03/blam-blam-willis-eschenbach-takes-a-scattergun-to-solar-temperature-datasets/
I saw your reconstruction, well done. How well does it hindcast back past the Maunder Minimum?
Can we see the parameters you ended up with please.
Poptech says:
January 22, 2014 at 10:18 pm
Morner was a thesis advisor to Jelbring,
http://www.pog.nu/03education/education.htm
How many publication rules does that break?
None. And Jelbring wrote his thesis a looooong time ago.
Poptech says:
January 22, 2014 at 10:20 pm
And for good measure, Roger did a nice post on the thesis
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/book-review-wind-driven-climate-doctoral-thesis-by-hans-jelbring/
Yes, and very good it is. I still have some copies if you’d like to buy one.
Then you’ll be able to see that the content of the thesis and the content of the papers Hans submitted to PRP are pretty much unrelated. But don’t let that stop you making a fool of yourself.
Carry on.
pyromancer76, Poptech and tallbloke:
Please desist from disrupting this thread.
There is a time and a place for everything.
This thread is about the paper by Salvador RJ which would have been in a journal (PRP) if the publisher had not withdrawn the journal. Discussion of other things is a distraction in this thread.
Please note that this thread is NOT about the violations of peer review procedures which resulted in the publisher cancelling the journal. Anybody who wants to discuss that issue can do so in the still active thread on the blog of Jo Nova which first raised that issue.
Richard
My post is short, has no links, contains no profanity, and does not mention our host but WordPress dumps it in the moderation ‘bin’. Aaaargh!
Until last week, the “official” consensus understanding of the longest of the Milankovich cycles, eccentricity, was that both its 100,000 year period and the 400,000 year modulation of its amplitude, were a direct consequence of interaction of earth’s orbit with those of s.a.t.u.r.n and j.u.p.i.t.e.r .
But, post PRP-gate, can we now still say this? Can we even mention the names of other planets in the s.o.l.a.r s.y.s.t.e.m at all? Are there any such things?
It looks like the PRP scandal has put the scientific community firmly on course to return to the pre-Copernican geocentric view of the universe. Who reviewed Galileo and Copernicus? A few like-minded Jesuits? All this heliocentrism will have to be rejected. Nothing affects the earth’s orbit because the earth does not orbit, instead a 2d disc sun rotates in a glassy sphere around a static 2D Narnia-diskworld earth.
It will of course be a delight for the research community with its powerful computational resources to return to the task of getting epicycles to work correctly after an anomalous and inadequately peer reviewed interval of several centuries.
Great to see science striding confidently in the right direction!
There doesn’t seem to be much awareness here of RJ’s simpler model and the Maunder Minimum constraint.
REPLY: You keep referencing this, but dare not lift a finger to provide a citation, URL, or source. Don’t be lazy, be a contributor. – Anthony
FrankK says:
January 22, 2014 at 9:12 pm
Steven Mosher says:
January 22, 2014 at 5:25 pm
FrankK.
Last I checked its gone up since 1988. See how easy it is when u dont quantify things
——————————————————————————————-
?? Nonsense. He predicted it would keep rising beyond 2000 to 2030
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/15/james-hansens-climate-forecast-of-1988-a-whopping-150-wrong/
It hasn’t so far from 1998 to 2013. See how easy if you ignore the obvious!
################
It has gone up from 1988 to present. As predicted. he predicted up not down
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/gistemp/from:1988/to:2013/mean:12
2000 to present
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/gistemp/from:2000/to:2013/mean:12/plot/gistemp/from:2000/to:2013/trend/plot/none
You see IF you accept the model in this solar paper, IF you accept a model that gets the DIRECTION right, but the magintude wrong, IF that standard is good enough for you,
THEN you have no choice but to accept hansens model as he gets the direction right
but the magintude wrong.
But, IF, like me, you reject the solar model which gets the magnitude WRONG, then you ALSO get to reject Hansen who gets the magnitude wrong
This is the difference between you and me.
1. I always demand code, wether skeptic or warmist writes the paper
2. I always demand the data, who ever writes it
3. I apply the same tests, let the chips fall where they may.
IN this way my individual politics is controlled for. My friends get criticized, my foes get praised. My position on taxes, on the epa, on any other issue is put aside. three simple rules
1. supply your data AS USED
2. supply your code, as RUN
3. I will believe you when you show your work, else, hit the road I have no time for your BS
Without consistent principles fairly applied we are back in the dark ages.
Here Frank
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/gistemp/from:1997/to:2013/mean:12/plot/gistemp/from:1997/to:2013/trend/plot/none
Is that increasing or decreasing
here frank increasing or decreasing
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/uah/from:1997/to:2013/mean:12/plot/uah/from:1997/to:2013/trend/plot/none
Tom in Florida says:
January 22, 2014 at 7:07 pm
Steven Mosher says:
January 22, 2014 at 2:21 pm
“Heres a good one. In 1988 Hansens model predicted increasing temperatures under all scenarios. Although he got the magnitude wrong he got the direction right. ”
Getting the magnitude right is the critical component of any prediction. It is what makes people consider taking action. So it is easy to understand Hansen eagerly erring on the high side..
#############
So Tom, the model in this paper, by the authors own admission, gets the direction right but the magnitude wrong.
Now, you have seen these guys attack Hansen’s model for getting the magnitude wrong
falsified they yell.
But when they publish a model, they forget their standards.
For me its easy. The standard I apply to Hansen say he wrong. I apply these same standard here and say. Its also wrong. As a reviewer why would I urge the publication of something that admits its wrong?
Why?
well there is an explanation. its not pretty
In talking about using the Fourier Transform on the sunspot data and/or the model, this is hardly the “blunt instrument” Roger suggests (Jan 23, 12:14 am). But neither did Willis give any details (Jan 22, 6:34 pm). I assume we are talking about using the FFT of a time series.
First, above at 7:32 pm Jan 22, I mentioned that any “beat frequency” should not be in the spectrum. This is true, but I need to refine that comment. The reason relates to the use of the absolute value, which you would never do before taking a spectrum. In the math model, the underlying signals are clearly bipolar as being derived from cosines. But then they take an absolute value. I believe I have also seen suggestions (if not assertions) that every other cycle of actual sunspot data is (in some sense) flipped, and is accordingly sometimes “un-rectified” for proper interpretation. Thus while the cycles “bumps” have an 11 year periodicity, the fundamental period would be 22 years. The 11 year cycle is built into the math model, although as an artifact of the (non-linear) absolute value. By eye, if there are harmonics of the 22 year period in the actual data, they seem to be odd harmonics (i.e., a third harmonic of period 7.3333 years).
It could well be that the “sign” of the alternating cycles is irrelevant to any astronomical consequences or implications for Earth’s climate. Does Nature “self-rectify” and disregard the sign? Quite possibly. But the absolute value has severe consequences for using Fourier Analysis.
Seeing an 11 year cycle and lower frequencies due to any amplitude variations (even beat-like effects) is consistent with using absolute value. Without this, we should expect a 22 year period largely devoid of lower frequency components.
This and many other issues with Fourier Analysis are familiar to electrical engineers from the early days of building power supplies to “envelope” extraction of speech and music.
Bernie Hutchins says:
January 23, 2014 at 10:00 am
The reason relates to the use of the absolute value, which you would never do before taking a spectrum. ?
The sunspot number is strictly positive and there is no physical justification for introducing a sign that changes at sunspot minimum.
lsvalgaard said, January 23, 2014 at 10:08 am
“Bernie Hutchins says:
January 23, 2014 at 10:00 am
The reason relates to the use of the absolute value, which you would never do before taking a spectrum. ?
The sunspot number is strictly positive and there is no physical justification for introducing a sign that changes at sunspot minimum.”
Thanks Dr. Svalgaard. I kind of had the feeling you would be the one who would know. Agreed that the counting numbers are strictly positive. But I could suppose it might be like ocean tides: two a day for one rotation, and if you have a picnic on the beach, you are chased by the water twice a day in much the same (absolute!) way, despite a once-daily rotation.
You put a (?) after my sentence about never using absolute value before taking an FFT. My reason for stressing that is simply that it would of course give you an FFT of a different signal. For example, instead of a single sinusoidal you would get DC plus all even harmonics, of the sinewave which is now gone completely. Taking absolute value (technically the magnitude of a complex result) AFTER the FFT is common, rather than displaying real and imaginary parts (or keeping a separate phase display).
I am not by any stretch knowledgeable of, or a fan of, sunspot “counts”. (Is this particular spot one or two – and do we count this tiny one as much as this huge one? Etc.) Very noisy data at best? But I think that what I said (the cautions) about using the FFT, are correct.
Again thanks for the reply.
Bernie Hutchins says:
January 23, 2014 at 12:03 pm
You put a (?) after my sentence about never using absolute value before taking an FFT.
The ? was by accident. About the cyclic nature of sunspot numbers: there is a qualitative difference between no spots and many spots. It is not just deviations from the mean number. Anyway, making the spot counts signed has no meaning.
Finally: sunspot counting is not all that subjective. Experienced observers count the same number of spots [with same telescope].
Leif –
Thanks – got it.
I was at a talk on AGW where one individual said that the skeptics were using silly notions – even counting sunspots – good for a laugh it seemed. The way he said it, he might have said tea-leaves or chicken entrails. For more than 50 years, I have known about sunspots, short-wave reception, the ionosphere, etc. This individual was a professor of electrical engineering specializing in upper atmospheric physics, space plasma physics, and radar. Nature is just subtle. People are perplexing!
Thanks for all your good work.
Bernie
tallbloke says:
January 23, 2014 at 12:14 am
No clue. Such fits are never valid out of sample for more than a cycle, and often not even for that.
Sure … as soon as Scafetta releases his code.
Or we could do it exactly as Salvador did in the paper discussed in the head post … here are my parameters:
X1
X2
X3
X4
X5
X6
X7
X8
X9
X10
X11
X12
X13
X14
X15
D1
D2
D3
D4
w.