At AGU, NASA says CFC reduction is not shrinking the ozone hole – yet

NASA Reveals New Results From Inside the Ozone Hole  – Dec. 11, 2013

visualization of average zone hole in October 2013
The area of the ozone hole, such as in October 2013 (above), is one way to view the ozone hole from year to year. However, the classic metrics have limitations.Image Credit: NASA/Ozone Hole Watch

NASA scientists have revealed the inner workings of the ozone hole that forms annually over Antarctica and found that declining chlorine in the stratosphere has not yet caused a recovery of the ozone hole.

More than 20 years after the Montreal Protocol agreement limited human emissions of ozone-depleting substances, satellites have monitored the area of the annual ozone hole and watched it essentially stabilize, ceasing to grow substantially larger. However, two new studies show that signs of recovery are not yet present, and that temperature and winds are still driving any annual changes in ozone hole size.

“Ozone holes with smaller areas and a larger total amount of ozone are not necessarily evidence of recovery attributable to the expected chlorine decline,” said Susan Strahan of NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. “That assumption is like trying to understand what’s wrong with your car’s engine without lifting the hood.”

To find out what’s been happening under the ozone hole’s hood, Strahan and Natalya Kramarova, also of NASA Goddard, used satellite data to peer inside the hole. The research was presented Wednesday at the annual meeting of the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco.

Kramarova tackled the 2012 ozone hole, the second-smallest hole since the mid 1980s. To find out what caused the hole’s diminutive area, she turned to data from the NASA-NOAA Suomi National Polar-orbiting Partnership satellite, and gained the first look inside the hole with the satellite’s Ozone Mapper and Profiler Suite’s Limb Profiler. Next, data were converted into a map that shows how the amount of ozone differed with altitude throughout the stratosphere in the center of the hole during the 2012 season, from September through November.

The map revealed that the 2012 ozone hole was more complex than previously thought. Increases of ozone at upper altitudes in early October, carried there by winds, occurred above the ozone destruction in the lower stratosphere.

“Our work shows that the classic metrics based on the total ozone values have limitations – they don’t tell us the whole story,” Kramarova said.

profile of ozone mixing ration over time from Suomi NPP
A look inside the 2012 ozone hole with the Ozone Mapper and Profiler Suite shows how the build-up of ozone (parts per million by volume) in the middle stratosphere masks the ozone loss in the lower stratosphere. Image Credit:NASA

The classic metrics create the impression that the ozone hole has improved as a result of the Montreal protocol. In reality, meteorology was responsible for the increased ozone and resulting smaller hole, as ozone-depleting substances that year were still elevated. The study has been submitted to the journal of Atmospheric Chemistry and Physics.

Separate research led by Strahan tackled the holes of 2006 and 2011 – two of the largest and deepest holes in the past decade. Despite their similar area, however, Strahan shows that they became that way for very different reasons.

Strahan used data from the NASA Aura satellite’s Microwave Limb Sounder to track the amount of nitrous oxide, a tracer gas inversely related to the amount of ozone depleting chlorine. The researchers were surprised to find that the holes of 2006 and 2011 contained different amounts of ozone-depleting chlorine. Given that fact, how could the two holes be equally severe?

The researchers next used a model to simulate the chemistry and winds of the atmosphere. Then they re-ran the simulation with the ozone-destroying reactions turned off to understand the role that the winds played in bringing ozone to the Antarctic. Results showed that in 2011, there was less ozone destruction than in 2006 because the winds transported less ozone to the Antarctic – so there was less ozone to lose. This was a meteorological, not chemical effect. In contrast, wind blew more ozone to the Antarctic in 2006 and thus there was more ozone destruction. The research has been submitted to the journal Geophysical Research Letters.

This work shows that the severity of the ozone hole as measured by the classic total column measurements does not reveal the significant year-to-year variations in the two factors that control ozone: the winds that bring ozone to the Antarctic and the chemical loss due to chlorine.

Until chlorine levels in the lower stratosphere decline below the early 1990s level – expected sometime after 2015 but likely by 2030 – temperature and winds will continue to dictate the variable area of the hole in any given year. Not until after the mid 2030s will the decline stratospheric chlorine be the primary factor in the decline of ozone hole area.

“We are still in the period where small changes in chlorine do not affect the area of the ozone hole, which is why it’s too soon to say the ozone hole is recovering,” Strahan said. “We’re going into a period of large variability and there will be bumps in the road before we can identify a clear recovery.”

Related Links

› NASA Goddard’s Ozone Hole Watch website

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Editor
December 13, 2013 6:15 pm

“Alan the Brit says: December 12, 2013 at 3:18 am
As I understand it, & I am only a humble Chartered Structural Engineer, the hole is nothing of the kind, that it is actually merely a “thinning”,
Yes:

“The word hole isn’t literal; no place is empty of ozone. Scientists use the word hole as a metaphor for the area in which ozone concentrations drop below the historical threshold of 220 Dobson Units.”
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/WorldOfChange/ozone.php

& that there are several of them but the “lesser spotted variety” don’t get a look in!
Yes, NASA refers to them as “Ozone Mini-Holes”;
http://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/facts/miniholes_NH.html

“The term “mini-hole” is derived from a comparison to the Antarctic ozone hole. However, a mini-hole is quite a bit different from the ozone hole in fundamental ways. First, mini-holes are much smaller in area coverage than the Antarctic ozone hole (as the name suggests). Second, while the Antarctic ozone hole is caused by high concentrations of chlorine and bromine derived from man-made chemicals, a mini-hole is a natural phenomena that is caused by particular weather patterns. Third, ozone is irreversibly depleted by man-made chemicals in the Antarctic ozone hole. In a mini-hole, ozone is rearranged by the weather systems and the ozone returns to its initial levels after the these weather systems pass.”
“he flow around this low PV is in a clockwise direction. This push of low PV air northward creates what is known as an anticyclonic flow, and low PV air generally coincides with the ozone mini-hole. The middle center panel shows that the location of the mini-hole is near the edge of the polar vortex. Column ozone is low for two reasons. First, midlatitude air at 420 K has low values of ozone. Second, the low PV values (blue color) at 420 K push below the higher value PV at 500 K (green and orange) and creates a lifting circulation. This lifting motion decreases ozone density in the lower stratosphere. The combined effects of a push northward of low ozone values with a density decrease by the lifting motion acts to dramatically decrease the total column ozone. This movement of weather systems at 420 K (18 km) and 500 K (22.5 km) creates the mini-hole.
An “anti” mini-hole of total ozone (high ozone) can be found to the west of the mini-hole on 31 January, indicated by the black “Y”. In this situation, high PV values at 420 K push down from the polar region and under-ride low PV values at 500 K. This creates a sinking motion that increases total column ozone, exactly the opposite motion from what creates the mini-hole. In the rightmost images, the weather systems are drifting off and dissipating, so the ozone levels return back to their normal state.

[caption id="" align="alignnone" width="578"] NOAA – National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC) – Click the pic to view at source[/caption]
Above are:

Northern hemisphere images for 24 January, 31 January, and 4 February of 2012. Top row: total column ozone; middle row: potential vorticity on the 500 K potential temperature surface; bottom row: potential vorticity on the 420 K potential temperature surface. The mini-hole is the prominent dark blue area in the top middle image, indicated with a black “X”. A corresponding area of high ozone values is inidcated with a “Y”.

Editor
December 13, 2013 7:15 pm

Also, Polar Vortices and their “Ozone Holes” can split, i.e. in this September 2003 paper, “Ozone Forecasts of the Stratospheric Polar Vortex Splitting Event in September 2002″:
http://www.knmi.nl/~eskes/papers/jas1039_eskes_pp.pdf

“The southern hemisphere major warming event in September 2002 has led to a break-up of the vortex in the middle and higher stratosphere and a corresponding splitting of the ozone hole.
“the splitting of the vortex had a dramatic impact on the ozone hole, reducing it’s size and mixing ozone depleted vortex air with midlatitude air.”
“In September 2002 the South Pole vortex showed a rapidly developing distortion and a subsequent split of the vortex in two more or less equal parts (Allen et al., 2003 ). On September 18 the vortex looked normal. It was displaced slightly away from the pole, but not in an unusual manner. From 21 to 23 September the vortex rapidly elongated. The process resulted in a split vortex on 24-26 September. At this time the ozone hole had been transformed into two smaller ”ozone holes” of nearly equal size. After the split the vortex remnant on the Southern Atlantic slowly gained strength and moved back to the South Pole during the first two weeks of October. The second remnant vortex over the Pacific rapidly weakened and the ozone depleted air mixed with mid-latitude air with higher ozone mixing ratios.”
“In late September and early October, Syowa is located inside the (split) vortex. Ozone values remain low until about 10 October. Then the small remaining vortex moves from the South Atlantic towards the South pole, and ozone values increase. The ozone history at Arrival Heights is very different. As soon as the vortex starts to elongate, around 21 September, the ozone hole edge passes and ozone values jump from about 170 DU to high values of about 400 DU within one day. Ozone stays very high for more than two weeks and only around 10-12 October low, ozone depleted column values of less than 200 DU are abruptly found again. This is again related to the migration of the center of the small vortex to the pole. After this the vortex weakens and moves in the direction of South America, and the ozone at Arrival Heights reaches values of around 350 DU.”

dsystem
December 13, 2013 8:22 pm

Most CFCs were generated in the Northern Hemisphere with its much larger population and industry. So you’d expect a larger hole over the NORTH pole. But by some magical process not yet modelled, or identified by the UN, most of the CFCs generated in the northern hemisphere have filtered downhill, past the equator and down to the south pole where they have wreaked havoc on the south pole ozone.
Is there a new phenomenon where CFC compounds are repelled by the earth’s north pole and attracted to the earth’s south pole?

December 13, 2013 8:24 pm

Gary Pearse says:
December 13, 2013 at 5:54 am
Thank you for that. While it may have some effect in theory, I think the key is from Jim’s site where it says:
“Turbulent mixing thus maintains a homogeneous lower atmosphere.”
Perhaps the effect is noticeable very high up where the molecules are very spread out. Gravity seems to play a role very high up as well, but lower down, other processes dominate.

Editor
December 13, 2013 9:09 pm

DocattheAutopsy says: December 11, 2013 at 3:53 pm
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t the ozone hole exist in the first satellite records
Yes, the first satellite to measure Ozone concentrations was the Nimbus-7 TOMS Instrument, i.e.:

The TOMS program began with the launch of TOMS Flight Model #1 on the Nimbus-7 spacecraft on October 24, 1978.
http://toms.gsfc.nasa.gov/n7toms/n7sat.html

As Nimbus 7 satellite observations accumulated between 1978 and 1994, it became increasingly clear that CFCs were creating a hole in the ozone layer each winter season over Antarctica. Not only that, but despite some year-to-year variations, it appeared the hole was becoming larger.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Nimbus/nimbus2.php

In support of this assertion they offer these globes that:

show ozone concentrations over Antarctica in selected Octobers from 1979-85 and 2000-2003. Nimbus observations began to point to a drop in ozone (blue areas) as early as 1980, with more extreme decreases developing in 1985.

[caption id="" align="alignnone" width="578"] NASA – Earth Observatory – Click the pic to view at source[/caption]

“In 1956, the British Antarctic Survey set up the Halley Bay Observatory on Antarctica in preparation for the International Geophysical Year (IGY) of 1957. In that year, ozone measurements using a Dobson Spectrophotometer began.”
“Instruments on the ground (at Halley) and high above Antarctica (the Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer [TOMS] and Ozone Monitoring Instrument [OMI]) measured an acute drop in total atmospheric ozone during October in the early and middle 1980s.”

[caption id="" align="alignnone" width="578"] NOAA – National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC) – Click the pic to view at source[/caption]
Here’s:

Annual average ozone trend between 1979-2000 for 65°S to 65°N (global avg.) as predicted by an ensemble of ten 2-D ozone models: trends compared to 1979-1997 TOMS measured data for validation

[caption id="" align="alignnone" width="578"]The Center for Coastal Physical Oceanography at Old Dominion Universityy – Click the pic to view at source[/caption]
Also, not satellite, but:

In 1984 British Antarctic Survey scientists, Joesph Farman , Brian Gardiner, and Jonathan Shanklin, discovered a recurring springtime Antarctic ozone hole .Their paper was published in Nature , May 1985, the study summarized data that had been collected by the British Antarctic Survey showing that ozone levels had dropped to 10% below normal January levels for Antarctica.

[caption id="" align="alignnone" width="578"]The Center for Coastal Physical Oceanography at Old Dominion Universityy – Click the pic to view at source[/caption]
http://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/statistics/meteorology_annual.png

December 14, 2013 6:40 am

_Jim says:
December 13, 2013 at 11:31 am
re: Phil. says December 13, 2013 at 10:45 am
Post was kinda thin on specifics there Phil .. one resource is sitting behind a paywall.

Unlike all the the posts on here that erroneously assert that no such measurements have been made with no cites to back them up!
scarletmacaw says:
December 13, 2013 at 3:06 pm
Phil. says:
December 13, 2013 at 10:45 am
Thanks for the links. I’m curious as to what they actually say since the first link is an undescribed graph and the second is just an abstract. How were the measurements made in 1975?
The first link appears too smooth to be a graph of actual measurements, so I suspect it is a model.

You’d be wrong.
It doesn’t take much to work back from the fig to the original url:
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/science/myths/heavier.html
“Source: World Meteorological Organization, Scientific Assessment of Ozone Depletion: 1998, WMO Global Ozone Research and Monitoring Project – Report No. 44, Geneva, 1998.”
The paper was not behind a paywall for me but there are these things called libraries where you can access the papers without paying.
As it says in the paper the measurements were made using GC with electron capture detection.
Here’s another paper discussing more recent satellite measurements (figs 6 and 7):
http://www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net/12/28733/2012/acpd-12-28733-2012.pdf

December 14, 2013 10:03 am

_Jim says December 13, 2013 at 11:31 am
Post was kinda thin on specifics there Phil .. one resource is sitting behind a paywall.
Phil. says December 14, 2013 at 6:40 am
Unlike all the the posts on here that erroneously assert that no such measurements have been made with no cites to back them up!

‘Thin’ is still thin, Phil, no matter your assertions to the contrary, and adds little to nothing to the discussion; failure to ‘make your case’ with very thin soup is a reflection on Phil, not _Jim.
.

December 14, 2013 2:15 pm

dsystem says:
December 13, 2013 at 8:22 pm
Most CFCs were generated in the Northern Hemisphere with its much larger population and industry. So you’d expect a larger hole over the NORTH pole. But by some magical process not yet modelled, or identified by the UN, most of the CFCs generated in the northern hemisphere have filtered downhill, past the equator and down to the south pole where they have wreaked havoc on the south pole ozone.
Is there a new phenomenon where CFC compounds are repelled by the earth’s north pole and attracted to the earth’s south pole?

If you actually took the trouble to read about the subject you’d learn that due to the colder air PSCs form above the antarctic but not often over the arctic and the heterogeneous reaction with ozone takes place on those. That is why the hole over the antarctic is more significant.

December 14, 2013 2:18 pm

_Jim says:
December 14, 2013 at 10:03 am
_Jim says December 13, 2013 at 11:31 am
Post was kinda thin on specifics there Phil .. one resource is sitting behind a paywall.
Phil. says December 14, 2013 at 6:40 am
Unlike all the the posts on here that erroneously assert that no such measurements have been made with no cites to back them up!
‘Thin’ is still thin, Phil, no matter your assertions to the contrary, and adds little to nothing to the discussion; failure to ‘make your case’ with very thin soup is a reflection on Phil, not _Jim.

Actually I’ve added a website and two papers to the discussion, _Jim has added nothing but two content free comments.

Eve
December 14, 2013 8:12 pm

I remeber in the last solar minimum in 2008, there was a huge ozone hole over the Arctic and probably the Antarctic as well. At that time, it was suggested that cosmic rays were the cause. The Montreal Protocol was just a hoax played on the world by Dupont. No need to ban Freon except that Dupont’s patent had run out.

Zeke
December 14, 2013 8:43 pm

It is interesting to notice how many people have recognized – nay condemned – the ability of a company to benefit from the use of environmental legislation, mandates, and bans in order to sell their own replacement technology.
But the same people cannot understand how AGW falsehoods allow countless companies peddling worthless wares such as CFLs and wind turbines to sell unwanted garbage to unwilling customers.

December 14, 2013 9:14 pm

Zeke says December 14, 2013 at 8:43 pm
It is interesting to notice how many people have recognized – nay condemned – the ability of a company to benefit from the use of environmental legislation, mandates, and bans in order to sell their own replacement technology.

Do you have something in mind? Just curious what exactly it is you’re driving at. To date, anything pointing in that direction (re: CFCs) has been conjecture with no actual supporting ‘facts’.
.

December 14, 2013 9:18 pm

Eve says December 14, 2013 at 8:12 pm
..
No need to ban Freon except that Dupont’s patent had run out.
What patent, Eve? Everybody says this, no one seems to be able to actually source ‘facts’ for this conclusion.
Call it an Urban Myth then …
.

December 14, 2013 9:22 pm

Phil. says December 14, 2013 at 2:18 pm

Actually I’ve added a website and two papers to the discussion, _Jim has added nothing but two content free comments.

Is it that Phil cannot read? Proceeds to inflate his own meager contribution?
[trimmed. Mod]
.

Zeke
December 14, 2013 9:29 pm

@_Jim, my meaning is in the second paragraph, not the first.
“But the same people [making the claims against DuPont] cannot understand how AGW falsehoods allow countless companies peddling worthless wares – such as CFLs and wind turbines – to sell unwanted garbage to unwilling customers.”

Mickey Reno
December 15, 2013 6:25 am

MKelly, thanks for the correction. Dobson, of course discovered the annual (and natural) diminishing ozone levels in the polar regions during their respective sunless winters.
But it’s also fair to say that when the TOMS satellite measured the extent and level of ozone depletion in the 70s, there was little common understanding of the scope. Because of the large extent of depletion, there was a wave of popularization and alarmism that did NOT occur when Dobson observed ozone depletion in the 1950s. This is the phenomenon I was describing as ‘discovery.’ Perhaps it was an unfortunate choice of words.
Ironically, when the satellite era “discovery” of the ozone hole became part of the pop culture, pop science almost universally ignored the lessons of Dobson’s research. They immediately began to manufacture an anthropogenic attribution as the cause. Had most atmospheric scientists properly internalized Dobson’s work, at the time of the satellite measurements the so-called “ozone hole” would have been immediately explained to the world as a completely natural, annual event, perhaps somewhat larger than previously thought. The objective process would have been front and center, and policy makers would have been told that ozone levels fall rapidly when ozone is not refreshed by solar UV interactions in the atmosphere. We would not now be stuck with the current sad and stupid state we’re in, in which the CFC myth is still accepted by many people as the cause for the ozone hole.

dsystem
December 15, 2013 1:15 pm

Phil. says: December 14, 2013 at 2:15 pm
“If you actually took the trouble to read about the subject you’d learn that due to the colder air PSCs form above the antarctic but not often over the arctic and the heterogeneous reaction with ozone takes place on those. That is why the hole over the antarctic is more significant.”
Good news then. We only need to ban CFCs in the Southern hemisphere.

December 16, 2013 7:12 am

dsystem says:
December 15, 2013 at 1:15 pm
Phil. says: December 14, 2013 at 2:15 pm
“If you actually took the trouble to read about the subject you’d learn that due to the colder air PSCs form above the antarctic but not often over the arctic and the heterogeneous reaction with ozone takes place on those. That is why the hole over the antarctic is more significant.”
Good news then. We only need to ban CFCs in the Southern hemisphere.

As long as you can build a barrier to prevent the N hemisphere air crossing the equator, that might prove to be tricky as well as having unforeseen consequences!

December 16, 2013 8:27 am

Mickey Reno says:
December 15, 2013 at 6:25 am
MKelly, thanks for the correction. Dobson, of course discovered the annual (and natural) diminishing ozone levels in the polar regions during their respective sunless winters.
But it’s also fair to say that when the TOMS satellite measured the extent and level of ozone depletion in the 70s, there was little common understanding of the scope. Because of the large extent of depletion, there was a wave of popularization and alarmism that did NOT occur when Dobson observed ozone depletion in the 1950s. This is the phenomenon I was describing as ‘discovery.’ Perhaps it was an unfortunate choice of words.

It was the discovery of the increasing depth of the ozone hole starting around 1977 by Dobson’s colleagues led by Farman (using Dobson’s instruments), which was published in 1984 which showed the progressive ‘expansion’ of the ozone hole. NASA the went back and looked at their data and corroborated the British Antarctic Survey results.
Ironically, when the satellite era “discovery” of the ozone hole became part of the pop culture, pop science almost universally ignored the lessons of Dobson’s research. They immediately began to manufacture an anthropogenic attribution as the cause. Had most atmospheric scientists properly internalized Dobson’s work, at the time of the satellite measurements the so-called “ozone hole” would have been immediately explained to the world as a completely natural, annual event, perhaps somewhat larger than previously thought.
Completely wrong, Dobson’s research was taken on board and it was well known that there was a seasonal natural fluctuation, it was the amplification of the seasonal decline that needed to be explained.
The objective process would have been front and center, and policy makers would have been told that ozone levels fall rapidly when ozone is not refreshed by solar UV interactions in the atmosphere. We would not now be stuck with the current sad and stupid state we’re in, in which the CFC myth is still accepted by many people as the cause for the ozone hole.
No after how much you would like it to be it’s not a myth. There are several myths propagated in this thread though, such as: ‘no one has ever actually detected CFCs in the stratosphere’, ‘depletion only occurs , or ever will occur over the sunless winter poles’ (no, it’s in the spring), ‘Proff James Lovelock of Gaia fame and also the inventor of an instrument to measure ozone levels from the ground’, (he didn’t, that was Dobson, Lovelock invented the EC detector, which was used to measure stratospheric ozone), ‘I read that Freon (R-22) was too heavy to make it to the ozone hole and therefore unable to destroy the ozone hole’, and DuPont’s patents ran out!

Mickey Reno
December 17, 2013 8:11 am

Phil writes: … Completely wrong, Dobson’s research was taken on board and it was well known that there was a seasonal natural fluctuation, it was the amplification of the seasonal decline that needed to be explained.

You’re essentially saying that based on 20-30 years of limited research from the pre-satellite era, scientists understood all possible natural variations in the extent of the ozone hole. And any change from that level of understanding must be anthropogenically caused. Thank you for so nicely equating ozone hole alarmism with climate change alarmism, generally.
I use the word myth advisedly. I’m not claiming chemical reactions between CFCs and ozone don’t happen. I’m saying the evidence that anthropogenic releases of CFCs CAUSE the polar ozone holes are speculative and weak, and that natural variation in the ozone hole’s extent is not well understood. Yet, pop science continues to make the claim that CFCs significantly affect the polar ozone holes without clear evidence that shows clear connections between CFC levels (pre and post Montreal), and the size of the annual ‘holes.’ And, just as in climate change alarmism, future predictions of mitigation are vague, far off, and unmeasurable. Recent research and advocacy on ozone and CFCs offer two mutually exclusive results, on the one hand saying that CFCs will not be eliminated from the atmosphere until 2070, with measurable results probably not possible until 2025, and on the other hand, the Antarctic ozone hole has shrunk drastically in that last couple of years, likely as a result of CFC bans.
“I don’t know” is a perfectly acceptable scientific answer and I suggest ozone hole researchers start practicing saying it. But then, there’s far less research grant money when no crisis exists. Correlations between CFC alarmism and grant money are excellent.

December 18, 2013 8:08 am

Mickey Reno says:
December 17, 2013 at 8:11 am
Phil writes: … “Completely wrong, Dobson’s research was taken on board and it was well known that there was a seasonal natural fluctuation, it was the amplification of the seasonal decline that needed to be explained.”
You’re essentially saying that based on 20-30 years of limited research from the pre-satellite era, scientists understood all possible natural variations in the extent of the ozone hole. And any change from that level of understanding must be anthropogenically caused. Thank you for so nicely equating ozone hole alarmism with climate change alarmism, generally.

You’re showing you bias here, nowhere did I imply that. The observation of the seasonal decline needed to be explained, there was no requirement that it be due to anthropogenic causes. Subsequent measurements showed a negative correlation between CiO and ozone and the chemical reactions whereby CiO acts as a catalyst in the destruction of ozone were identified. So both a mechanism and a correlation have been experimentally determined. Only about 100,000 tonnes of CFC-11 were produced prior to Farman’s measurements starting in 1956 whereas over 8,000,000 tonnes were produced afterwards prior to 1992, and slightly higher values for CFC-12. So contrary to your assertion there is plenty of evidence of a direct connection between the release of CFCs and the loss of ozone over Antarctica.

Mickey Reno
December 18, 2013 12:58 pm

Phil, your statement clearly implies what I inferred. And I am biased. I’m biased against assumptions of causality, when only correlations are in evidence. You should be, too.

December 19, 2013 6:52 am

Mickey Reno says:
December 18, 2013 at 12:58 pm
Phil, your statement clearly implies what I inferred.

Nowhere is this implied: “And any change from that level of understanding must be anthropogenically caused.”, that is your imagination.
And I am biased. I’m biased against assumptions of causality, when only correlations are in evidence.
There are more than correlations in evidence, there is a proven mechanism too.
Thank you for so nicely equating ozone hole alarmism with climate change alarmism, generally.
This is a fabrication by you, I presented scientific facts concerning the observations of Antarctic ozone depletion and made no reference to climate change!

Mickey Reno
December 19, 2013 8:00 am

Phil, I don’t dispute that a chemical mechanism exists, which I’ve already stipulated. I don’t even dispute that the mechanism MIGHT be in play over the polar regions. I’m saying that the existence of this process over the polar regions is not proven by a correlation.between the size of the hole and anthropogenic production of CFCs.
You’re dismissing ALL CAUSES of natural variations in the size of the ozone hole, when you don’t know the scope of natural (pre-CFC) variation. Some of those causes may be unknown to us. Some may depend on regional or local wind/weather patterns, some of which are also poorly understood. You have no evidence that makes it scientifically valid to do that. What you have is a hypothesis, ready for actual experiment and testing, and subject to falsification.
As for my claim that CFC alarmism mirrors global warming alarmism, I’ll stand by my statement. The full scope of natural variation is also dismissed far too casually in CAGW (ie. agenda based) science.

December 19, 2013 2:10 pm

Mickey Reno says:
December 19, 2013 at 8:00 am
Phil, I don’t dispute that a chemical mechanism exists, which I’ve already stipulated. I don’t even dispute that the mechanism MIGHT be in play over the polar regions. I’m saying that the existence of this process over the polar regions is not proven by a correlation.between the size of the hole and anthropogenic production of CFCs.

There is far more corroborative evidence than that as outlined above.
You’re dismissing ALL CAUSES of natural variations in the size of the ozone hole, when you don’t know the scope of natural (pre-CFC) variation. Some of those causes may be unknown to us. Some may depend on regional or local wind/weather patterns, some of which are also poorly understood. You have no evidence that makes it scientifically valid to do that. What you have is a hypothesis, ready for actual experiment and testing, and subject to falsification.
On the contrary I have not done that, that’s your assumption. Winds, for example, are known to have an effect. Part of the chemical mechanism is that chlorine radicals are the catalytic agent and that ClO would be expected to be generated as the ozone is depleted. This is exactly what is observed, no ‘natural’ mechanism would do so.
As for my claim that CFC alarmism mirrors global warming alarmism, I’ll stand by my statement. The full scope of natural variation is also dismissed far too casually in CAGW (ie. agenda based) science.
That’s not what you said, you said “Thank you for so nicely equating ozone hole alarmism with climate change alarmism, generally”, thank you for confirming that it was your claim!.

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