While some model based claims say that CO2 residence times may be thousands of years, a global experiment in measurable CO2 residence time seems to have already been done for us.
By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
Is the ~10-year airborne half-life of 14CO2 demonstrated by the bomb-test curve (Fig. 1, and see Professor Gösta Pettersson’s post) the same variable as the IPCC’s residence time of 50-200 years? If so, does its value make any difference over time to the atmospheric concentration of CO2 and hence to any consequent global warming?
Figure 1. The decay curve of atmospheric 14C following the ending of nuclear bomb tests in 1963, assembled from European records by Gösta Pettersson.
The program of nuclear bomb tests that ended in 1963 doubled the atmospheric concentration of 14CO2 compared with its cosmogenic baseline. However, when the tests stopped half the 14C left the atmosphere in ten years. Almost all had gone after 50 years. Why should not the other isotopes of CO2 disappear just as rapidly?
Mr. Born, in comments on my last posting, says the residence time of CO2 has no bearing on its atmospheric concentration: “It’s not an issue of which carbon isotopes we’re talking about. The issue is the difference between CO2 concentration and residence time in the atmosphere of a typical CO2 molecule, of whatever isotope. The bomb tests, which tagged some CO2 molecules, showed us the latter, and I have no reason to believe that the residence time of any other isotope would be much different.”
He goes on to assert that CO2 concentration is independent of the residence time, thus:
The total mass m of airborne CO2 equals the combined mass m12 of 12,13CO2 plus the mass m14 of 14CO2 (1):
Let CO2 be emitted to the atmosphere from all sources at a rate e = e12 + e14 and removed by uptake at a rate u. Then the rate of change in CO2 mass over time is given by
which says the total mass m of CO2, and thus its concentration, varies as the net emission, which is the difference between source e and sink u rates.
For example, if e = u, the total mass m remains unchanged even if few individual molecules remain airborne for long. Also, where e > u, m will rise unless and until u = e. Also, unless thereafter u > e, he thinks the mass m will remain elevated indefinitely. By contrast, he says, the rate of change in 14CO2 mass is given by
which, he says, tells us that, even if e were to remain equal to u, so that total CO2 concentration remained constant, the excess 14CO2 concentration
which is the difference between the (initially elevated) 14CO2 concentration and the prior cosmogenic baseline 14CO2 concentration, would still decay with a time constant m/u, which, therefore, tells us nothing about how long total CO2 concentration would remain at some higher level to which previously-elevated emissions might have raised it. In this scenario, for example, the concentration remains elevated forever even though x decays. Mr. Born concludes that the decay rate of x tells us the turnover rate of CO2 in the air but does not tell us how fast the uptake rate u will adjust to increased emissions.
On the other hand, summarizing Professor Pettersson, reversible reactions tend towards an equilibrium defined by a constant k. Emission into a reservoir perturbs the equilibrium, whereupon relaxation drains the excess x from the reservoir, re-establishing equilibrium over time. Where µ is the rate-constant of decay, which is the reciprocal of the relaxation time, (5) gives the fraction ft of x that remains in the reservoir at any time t, where e, here uniquely, is exp(1):
The IPCC’s current estimates (fig. 2) of the pre-industrial baseline contents of the carbon reservoirs are 600 PgC in the atmosphere, 2000 PgC in the biosphere, and 38,000 PgC in the hydrosphere. Accordingly the equilibrium constant k, equivalent to the baseline pre-industrial ratio of atmospheric to biosphere and hydrosphere carbon reservoirs, is 600 / (2000 + 38,000), or 0.015, so that 1.5% of any excess x that Man or Nature adds to the atmosphere will remain airborne indefinitely.
Empirically, Petterson finds the value of the rate-constant of decay µ to be ~0.07, giving a relaxation time µ–1 of ~14 years and yielding the red curve fitted to the data in Fig. 1. Annual values of the remaining airborne fraction ft of the excess x, determined by me by way of (5), are at Table 1.
Figure 2. The global carbon cycle. Numbers represent reservoir sizes in PgC, and carbon exchange fluxes in PgC yr–1. Dark blue numbers and arrows indicate estimated pre-industrial reservoir sizes and natural fluxes. Red arrows and numbers indicate fluxes averaged over 2000–2009 arising from CO2 emissions from fossil fuel combustion, cement production and land-use change. Red numbers in the reservoirs denote cumulative industrial-era changes from 1750–2011. Source: IPCC (2013), Fig. 6.1.
| t = 1 | .932 | .869 | .810 | .755 | .704 | .657 | .612 | .571 | .533 | .497 |
| 11 | .464 | .433 | .404 | .377 | .362 | .329 | .307 | .287 | .268 | .251 |
| 21 | .235 | .219 | .205 | .192 | .180 | .169 | .158 | .148 | .139 | .130 |
| 31 | .122 | .115 | .108 | .102 | .096 | .090 | .085 | .080 | .076 | .071 |
| 41 | .067 | .064 | .060 | .057 | .054 | .052 | .049 | .047 | .045 | .042 |
| 51 | .041 | .039 | .037 | .036 | .034 | .033 | .032 | .030 | .029 | .028 |
| 61 | .027 | .027 | .026 | .026 | .024 | .024 | .023 | .022 | .022 | .021 |
| 71 | .021 | .021 | .020 | .020 | .019 | .019 | .019 | .019 | .018 | .018 |
| 81 | .018 | .018 | .017 | .017 | .017 | .017 | .017 | .017 | .016 | .016 |
| 91 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 | .016 |
| 101 | .016 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 |
| 111 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 | .015 |
Table 1. Annual fractions ft of the excess x of 14CO2 remaining airborne in a given year t following the bomb-test curve determined via (5), showing the residential half-life of airborne 14C to be ~10 years. As expected, the annual fractions decay after 100 years to a minimum 1.5% above the pre-existing cosmogenic baseline.
Now, it is at once evident that Professor Pettersson’s analysis differs from that of the IPCC, and from that of Mr. Born, in several respects. Who is right?
Mr. Born offers an elegantly-expressed analogy:
“Consider a source emitting 1 L min–1 of a fluid F1 into a reservoir that already contains 15.53 L of F1, while a sink is simultaneously taking up 1 L min–1 of the reservoir’s contents. The contents remain at a steady 15.53 L.
“Now change the source to a different fluid F2, still supplied at 1 L min–1 and miscible ideally with F1 as well as sharing its density and flow characteristics. After 50 minutes, 96% of F1 will have left the reservoir, but the reservoir will still contain 15.53 L.
“Next, instantaneously inject an additional 1 L bolus of F2, raising the reservoir’s contents to 16.53 L. What does that 96% drop in 50 minutes that was previously observed reveal about how rapidly the volume of fluid in the reservoir will change thereafter from 16.53 L? I don’t think it tells us anything. It is the difference between source and sink rates that tells us how fast the volume of fluid in the reservoir will change. The rate, observed above, at which the contents turn over does not tell us that.
“The conceptual problem may arise from the fact that the 14C injection sounds as though it parallels the second operation above: it was, I guess, adding a slug of CO2 over and above pre-existing sources. But – correct me if I’m wrong – that added amount was essentially infinitesimal: it made no detectable change in the CO2 concentration, so in essence it merely changed the isotopic composition of that concentration, not the concentration itself. Therefore, the 14C injection parallels the first step above, while Man’s recent CO2 emissions parallel the second step.”
However, like all analogies, by definition this one breaks down at some point.
Figure 3. Comparison between the decay curves of the remaining airborne fraction ft of the excess x of CO2 across the interval t on [1, 100] years.
As Fig. 3 shows, the equilibrium constant k, the fraction of total excess concentration x that remains airborne indefinitely, has – if it is large enough – a major influence on the rate of decay. At the k = 0.15 determined by Professor Pettersson as the baseline pre-industrial ratio of the contents of the atmospheric to the combined biosphere and hydrosphere carbon reservoirs, the decay curve is close to a standard exponential-decay curve, such that, in (5), k = 0. However, at the 0.217 that is assumed in the Bern climate model, on which all other models rely, the course of the decay curve is markedly altered by the unjustifiably elevated equilibrium constant.
On this ground alone, one would expect CO2 to linger more briefly in the atmosphere than the Bern model and the models dependent upon it assume. To use Mr. Born’s own analogy, if any given quantum of fluid poured into a container remains there for less time than it otherwise would have done (in short, if it finds its way more quickly out of the container than the fixed rate of exit that his analogy implausibly assumes), then, ceteris paribus, there will be less fluid in the container.
Unlike the behavior of the contents of the reservoir described in Mr. Born’s analogy, the fraction of the excess remaining airborne at the end of the decay curve will be independent of the emission rate e and the uptake rate u.
Since the analogy breaks down at the end of the process and, therefore, to some degree throughout it, does it also break down on the question whether the rate of change in the contents of the reservoir is, as Mr. Born maintains in opposition to what Pettersson shows in (5), absolutely described by e – u?
Let us cite Skeptical Science as what the sociologists call a “negative reference group” – an outfit that is trustworthy only in that it is usually wrong about just about everything. The schoolboys at the University of Queensland, which ought really to be ashamed of them, feared Professor Murry Salby’s assertion that temperature change, not Man, is the prime determinant of CO2 concentration change.
They sought to dismiss his idea in their customarily malevolent fashion by sneering that the change in CO2 concentration was equal to the sum of anthropogenic and natural emissions and uptakes. Since there is no anthropogenic uptake to speak of, they contrived the following rinky-dink equationette:
The kiddiwinks say CO2 concentration change is equal to the sum of anthropogenic and natural emissions less the natural uptake. They add that we can measure CO2 concentration growth (equal to net emission) each year, and we can reliably deduce the anthropogenic emission from the global annual fossil-fuel consumption inventories. Rearranging (6):
They say that, since observed ea ≈ 2ΔCO2, the natural world on the left-hand side of (7) is perforce a net CO2 sink, not a net source as they thought Professor Salby had concluded. Yet his case, here as elsewhere, was subtler than they would comprehend.
Professor Salby, having shown by careful cross-correlations on all timescales, even short ones (Fig. 4, left), that CO2 concentration change lags temperature change, demonstrated that in the Mauna Loa record, if one examines it at a higher resolution than what is usually displayed (Fig. 4, right), there is a variation of up to 3 µatm from year to year in the annual CO2 concentration increment (which equals net emission).
Figure 4. Left: CO2 change lags and may be caused by temperature change. Right: The mean annual CO2 increment is 1.5 µatm, but the year-on-year variability is twice that.
The annual changes in anthropogenic CO2 emission are nothing like 3 µatm (Fig. 5, left). However, Professor Salby has detected – and, I think, may have been the first to observe – that the annual fluctuations in the CO2 concentration increment are very closely correlated with annual fluctuations in surface conditions (Fig. 5, right).
Figure 5. Left: global annual anthropogenic CO2 emissions rise near-monotonically and the annual differences are small. Right: an index of surface conditions (blue: 80% temperature change, 20% soil-moisture content) is closely correlated with fluctuations in CO2 concentration (green).
Annual fluctuations of anthropogenic CO2 emissions are small, but those of atmospheric CO2 concentration are very much larger, from which Professor Salby infers that their major cause is not Man but Nature, via changes in temperature. For instance, Henry’s Law holds that a cooler ocean can take up more CO2.
In that thought, perhaps, lies the reconciliation of the Born and Pettersson viewpoints. For the sources and sinks of CO2 are not static, as Mr. Born’s equations (1-4) and analogy assume, but dynamic. Increase the CO2 concentration and the biosphere responds with an observed global increase in net plant productivity. The planet gets greener as trees and plants gobble up the plant food we emit for them.
Similarly, if the weather gets a great deal warmer, as it briefly did during the Great el Niño of 1997/8, outgassing from the ocean will briefly double the annual net CO2 emission. But if it gets a great deal cooler, as it did in 1991/2 following the eruption of Pinatubo, net annual accumulation of CO2 in the atmosphere falls to little more than zero notwithstanding our emissions. It is possible, then, that as the world cools in response to the continuing decline in solar activity the ocean sink may take up more CO2 than we emit, even if we do not reduce our emissions.
Interestingly, several groups are working on demonstrating that, just as Professor Salby can explain recent fluctuations in Co2 concentration as a function of the time-integral of temperature change, in turn temperature change can be explained as a function of the time-integral of variations in solar activity. It’s the Sun, stupid!
It is trivially true that we are adding newly-liberated CO2 to the atmosphere every year, in contrast to the 14C pulse that ended in 1963 with the bomb tests. However, the bomb-test curve does show that just about all CO2 molecules conveniently marked with one or two extra neutrons in their nuclei will nearly all have come out of the atmosphere within 50 years.
To look at it another way, if we stopped adding CO2 to the atmosphere today, the excess remaining in the atmosphere after 100 years would be 1.5% of whatever we have added, and that is all. What is more, that value is not only theoretically derivable as the ratio of the contents of the atmospheric carbon reservoir to those of the combined active reservoirs of the hydrosphere and biosphere but also empirically consistent with the observed bomb-test curve (Fig. 1).
If the IPCC were right, though, the 50-200yr residence time of CO2 that it imagines would imply much-elevated concentrations for another century or two, for otherwise, it would not bother to make such an issue of the residence time. For the residence time of CO2 in the atmosphere does make a difference to future concentration levels.
To do a reductio ad absurdum in the opposite direction, suppose every molecule of CO2 we emitted persisted in the atmosphere only for a fraction of a second, then the influence of anthropogenic CO2 on global temperature would be negligible, and changes in CO2 concentration would be near-entirely dependent upon natural influences.
Atmospheric CO2 concentration is already accumulating in the atmosphere at less than half the rate at which we emit it. Half of all the CO2 we emit does indeed appear to vanish instantly from the atmosphere. This still-unexplained discrepancy, which the IPCC in its less dishonest days used to call the “missing sink”, is more or less exactly accounted for where, as Professor Pettersson suggests, CO2’s atmospheric residence time is indeed as short as the bomb-test curve suggests it is and not as long as the 50-200 years imagined by the IPCC.
And what does IPeCaC have to say about the bomb-test curve? Not a lot:
“Because fossil fuel CO2 is devoid of radiocarbon (14C), reconstructions of the 14C/C isotopic ratio of atmospheric CO2 from tree rings show a declining trend (Levin et al., 2010; Stuiver and Quay, 1981) prior to the massive addition of 14C in the atmosphere by nuclear weapon tests which has been offsetting that declining trend signal.”
And that is just about all They have to say about it.
Has Professor Pettersson provided the mechanism that explains why Professor Salby is right? If the work of these two seekers after truth proves meritorious, then that is the end of the global warming scare.
As Professor Lindzen commented when Professor Salby first told him of his results three years ago, since a given CO2 excess causes only a third of the warming the IPCC imagines, if not much more than half of that excess of CO2 is anthropogenic, and if it spends significantly less time in the atmosphere than the models imagine, there is nowhere for the climate extremists to go. Every component of their contrived theory will have been smashed.
It is because the consequences of this research are so potentially important that I have set out an account of the issue here at some length. It is not for a fumblesome layman such as me to say whether Professor Pettersson and Professor Salby (the latter supported by Professor Lindzen) are right. Or is Mr. Born right?
Quid vobis videtur?
Related articles
- Why and How the IPCC Demonized CO2 with Manufactured Information (wattsupwiththat.com)
Lubos Motl says:
November 22, 2013 at 11:15 pm
”The URL beneath the “bilge” says that the magnitude of sinks depends on the annual emissions, both natural and anthropogenic ones.
But this is physically impossible – it’s one of the memes that is sometimes “suggested” by the alarmists but it’s impossible.
…Which of it was put there last week or in 1963 is irrelevant.”
To tell the truth, I am not sure exactly where you are coming from. It definitely matters which of it was put in when, and from what source. What came in last week, or in 1963, added to the current pool which drove the sinks to their current level of activity. Maybe there is a clue in your initial statement:
”The URL beneath the “bilge” says that the magnitude of sinks depends on the annual emissions, both natural and anthropogenic ones.”
It depends on the time weighted accumulation of emissions, which is the current concentration. The toy equation I have given previously is
dCO2/dt = (CO2eq – CO2)/tau + a*H
CO2 = atmospheric concentration
CO2eq = equilibrium concentration
tau = time constant
a = fraction of integrated H which stays in the atmosphere after fast equilibration with other reservoirs
H = human input rate
The sink activity is -CO2/tau. But, CO2 is partially dependent on H, the anthropogenic input. For this particular system, dCO2/dt – H < 0 with H greater than 0 is not even an observation when tau is “short”, it is a tautology:
dCO2/dt – H = (CO2eq – CO2)/tau + (a-1)*H
But, tau short implies CO2 := CO2eq + tau*a*H is the approximate solution, hence
(CO2eq – CO2)/tau + (a-1)*H := -H < 0
yet clearly, as tau approaches zero, H approaches zero effect on CO2.
Wu, the answer is that molecules of CO2 in the atmosphere are constantly being exchanged with CO2 from the oceans and terrestrial biosphere, which predominantly contain the lighter isotopes 12C and 13C. 14C on the other hand is produced (in tiny quantities) naturally by the action of cosmic rays and it undergoes radioactive decay fairly rapidly (on a geological time scale). This means that the oceans and terrestrial biosphere contains very little 14C.
Now when the bomb 14C02 is exchanged with C02 from the oceans and terrestrial bioshpere, it is almost certainly going to be with 13CO2 because that is what those reservoirs predominantly contain. This means that 14C rapidly decays out of the atmosphere as it is REPLACED with 13C.
A molecule of 13CO2 when it is exchanged with CO2 from the oceans and terrestrial biosphere is also almost certainly going to be with 13CO2 because that is what those reservoirs predominantly contain. This means that the level of 13CO2 stays broadly the same (unless the carbon cycle is perturbed, for instance by fossil fuel emissions).
The key point to bear in mind is that the very large fluxes into and out of the atmosphere means that individual molecules only stay in the atmosphere for about four or five years (the residence to turnover time) before being exchanged with CO2 from the other reservoirs. However this exhgange doesn’t affect the total amount of CO2 in the atmosphere as it is a straight swap. The residence time depends on the total VOLUME of the flux out of the atmosphere. The rate at which atmospheric CO2 changes on the other hand depends on the difference between total emissions and total uptake (as Prof. Salby says), and that governs the adjustment time, which is an enturely different thing.
Everything comes down to the efficacy of the sinks.
If they are very powerful, then the bomb test indicates the removal rate for all CO2 being sunk.
If they are very weak, then the bomb test indicates the time for dilution due to diffusion into the various reservoirs.
The fact that CO2 is dominated by temperature dependent forcing and not by human inputs argues forcefully that the sinks are, in fact, quite powerful.
This being the case, the bomb test is more likely representative of the rate of removal of all CO2.
Monckton of Brenchley says:
November 23, 2013 at 12:52 am
My thanks, Lord Moncton, I do like a man who asks interesting questions.
Per your Figure 1 above, the formula for the remaining fraction f of 14C after a number of years T is
f = e( T/14 + 0.015 ) / 1.015
However, that formula contains both an error and an oddity.
The error is that they’ve left out a minus sign, and the formula should be:
f = e( -T/14 + 0.015 ) / 1.015
The oddity is that this is only microscopically different from the usual formula for exponential decay, which is
f = e( -T/tau ) (Equation 1)
where “tau” is the time constant, in this case 14.
The difference at one year is 0.0001, and decreases with increasing time T.
So I will compute this using the normal formula, and not their odd formula. Solving Equation 1 for T, we get:
T = -tau Ln(f) (Equation 2)
where “Ln” is the natural log to the base “e”.
This allows us to answer all of your questions. IF the remaining fraction is 0.5, 0.7, and 0.9, then
T (years) = -tau * Ln(f) = -14 * Ln(.5) = 9.7 years
T (years) = -tau * Ln(f) = -14 * Ln(.7) = 16.9 years
T (years) = -tau * Ln(f) = -14 * Ln(.9) = 32.2 years
I have calculated tau as 38 years for the e-folding time for the exponential decay of an injected pulse of CO2. I calculated tau as an optimized value to match actual emissions and atmospheric concentrations. Given that tau is 38 years, in parallel with the earlier example we find:
T (years) = -tau * Ln(f) = -38 * Ln(.5) = 26.3 years
T (years) = -tau * Ln(f) = -38 * Ln(.7) = 45.8 years
T (years) = -tau * Ln(f) = -38 * Ln(.9) = 87.3 years
I do not find any “futile semantics”. I find the conflation that bedevils this issue all over the web. People think there is one “residence time”, and they conflate the turnover time and the e-folding time. They either think they are the same, or they think one means something about the other. They are totally different, independent measures, and one means nothing about the other.
You asked Prof. Salby what the bomb test results showed about the e-folding time of an injected pulse. He claimed, and you seemed to agree, that they supported some particular value or another.
I disagree with both you and Prof. Salby. I still hold that the bomb-test results (turnover time) tell us nothing about the e-folding time of an injected pulse. Nor does the e-folding time of a pulse tell us anything about the turnover time (bomb-test results). The turnover time is not in dispute, and never has been. The e-folding time of a pulse, however, is the subject of much debate.
My best to you,
w.
Mr. Eschenbach:
“T (years) = -tau * Ln(f) = -14 * Ln(.5) = 9.7 years
T (years) = -tau * Ln(f) = -14 * Ln(.7) = 16.9 years
T (years) = -tau * Ln(f) = -14 * Ln(.9) = 32.2 years”
Did you instead intend 9.7, 5.0, and 1.5?
Myrrh says:
November 23, 2013 at 3:20 am
1. Carbon dioxide is being constantly washed out of the atmosphere as carbonic acid.
Myrrh, fresh water may absorb some CO2, but with 0.0004 bar in the atmosphere the quantities are very low. I calculated it some time ago: if the rain absorbs CO2 to saturation at the (cold) place of formation, drops to the ground and evaporates again, 1 mm of rain (1 l/m2) will give an increase of 1 ppmv in the first meter (1 m3) of air. That is all. Simply negligible…
The term “acid rain” was used for precipitation containing SO2 and NOx giving a much lower pH to rainwater than from CO2 (and effectively reducing the CO2 content, due to the lower pH!).
2. Carbon dioxide is a real gas, it is heavier than air and will always sink in the atmosphere if no other work is being done on it.
That is right of emitted pure and in huge quantitities. Without wind it will not readily disperse in the rest of the atmosphere. But most of the (human and natural) sources of CO2 are relative small and/or already diluted when emitted. These quantities are reasily dispersed in the rest of the atmosphere, where similar levels ae found from sealevel to the lower stratosphere over the oceans and from a few hundred meters to the lower stratosphere over land.
Thank you, Bart.
stevefitzpatrick says:
November 23, 2013 at 4:47 am
Supported by Joe Born…
Ferdinand Engelbeen,
You sir, continue to amaze me.
Thanks for your kind words…
I was once one of the early users of the Internet (begin 1990’s) and saw that it was used by a lot of activist groups while the industry was completely absent on that new medium.
Because I was working in the chlorine/VCM/PVC industry at that time (oh horror, chlorine = dioxins!), I defended my job based on my own knowledge of what happened in the factory I was working for in a few discussion groups (like Dioxin-l).
You may try to imagine the kind of reactions I received there. But they were worse than you ever can imagine. Despite that, I simply confronted them again and again with facts and could convince a lot of the more moderate people, never mind the fanatics, who never will be convinced.
Anyway I learned a lot of these discussions by simply ignoring any personal insults and keep myself on the facts where I have some knowledge of. That seems the best way to convince people, except some people who never will be convinced anyway…
Bart says:
November 23, 2013 at 10:39 am
Everything comes down to the efficacy of the sinks.
If they are very powerful, then the bomb test indicates the removal rate for all CO2 being sunk.
If they are very weak, then the bomb test indicates the time for dilution due to diffusion into the various reservoirs.
Besides that the 14CO2 decay rate of ~14 years is in fact a mix of a decay rate and the residence time (as diluted by 14C poor deep ocean water), the 14 years is not particularly fast.
As Gösta Petterson calculated, with a decay rate of 14 years, about halve the atmospheric increase is from humans, the other halve by nature. To decrease the human emissions to near zero, you need to increase the natural emissions/sinks a lot over time, but that should be visible in the 14C/12C ratio too. But there is no change in the sink rate of 14CO2 over the past 50 years…
Ferdinand Engelbeen says:
November 23, 2013 at 2:25 pm
14 years is plenty fast enough to keep the human contribution to less than 10% of the overall rise. Less than 10% is insignificant.
Willis Eschenbach says:
November 23, 2013 at 12:28 pm
“I still hold that the bomb-test results (turnover time) tell us nothing about the e-folding time of an injected pulse. “
You really should read through my analogy above. It’s all a question of how powerful the sinks are.
Monckton of Brenchley says:
November 22, 2013 at 3:33 am
I did not set the rate constant k to zero. It is used in the final equation. The point was to deal with a fixed value of 14CO2 derived from cosmic rays. You did point out a flaw that I have since dealt with. See http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/11/22/excerpts-from-salbys-slide-show/#comment-1482818. The steady state of 14C should be kept as N/k, but understand N was somewhat arbitrary, so effectively I let N stand for N/k (an implicit substitution). Using N/k instead, C would have been N/k + X. The meaning of N then was what I said, a steady rate of 14CO2 input, leading to a stable amount equal to N/k. So equation 15 is still correct.
That said, DocMartyn is right, I did not consider the “steady-state” being a ratio of 14C to 12C where 12C is increasing. I’ll have to do solve the equation for that model and refit the data.
Bart says:
November 23, 2013 at 6:19 pm
Does it matter whether he gets it or not? Or, is he the canary in the coal mine to determine whether arguments are clear enough for a well educated person? Or do you want to determine is whether an argument is strong enough to crack through not just regular stubborn, but dadgum stubborn?
Mr. Born sneers that “the math has proved so taxing” for me and suggests I am not capable of solving a differential equation. Yet my head posting simply reproduced his argument and that of Professor Pettersson, discussed possible implications for Professor Salby’s research, and asked whether readers thought Mr. Born or Professor Pettersson or the Bern model or the IPCC or “Skeptical Science” was correct. Since Mr. Born has reverted to the troll-like rudeness with which he began, I shall not comment further, except to note that Mr. Born now accepts that the relaxation time derived by Professor Pettersson from the bomb-test curve appears, after all, to be correct.
Willis Eschenbach continues to fail to concede that Professor Pettersson had clearly defined his terms mathematically. He was wrong to accuse the Professor of not understanding the distinction between the relaxation time and the e-folding time, both in his response to the Professor’s original posting and then in his response to mine. He now says there is a confusion between these terms “all over the Web”: however, there was no such confusion either in the Professor’s posting or in mine. We can perhaps agree that it is unfortunate that the IPCC itself uses “residence time” to apply both to relaxation time and to adjustment time; but the mathematical definitions of the Professor were precise.
Mr. Eschenbach then takes issue with a missing minus sign on one of my diagrams. My apoloies. However, the text of equation (5) shows the minus sign clearly.
He grumbles that he does not understand the Professor’s equilibrium constant: but it is clearly described, and its derivation and importance outlined, in the head posting.
He expresses surprise that the Professor’s value for the equilibrium constant yields results remarkably close to using an unmodified exponential decay function. Yet that is inevitable, since the unmodified exponential decay function is the degenerate case of the decay function with an equilibrium constant where that constant is zero, and Professor Pettersson’s value is very close to zero at only 0.015, which is the ratio of the IPCC’s estimates of the contents of the atmospheric to its estimates of the contents of the combined biosphere and hydrosphere sinks.
The importance of allowing for the equilibrium constant was explained in the head posting: it is that the Bern Model’s value for that constant is 0.217, which would imply that about a fifth of any CO2 emitted to the atmosphere over and above the presumed equilibrium value 280 ppmv would remain in the atmosphere indefinitely. That does make quite a difference to the decay curve, compared with Professor Pettersson’s real-world equilibrium constant of only 0.015.
The difference between the Professor’s calculations based on the bomb-test curve and those of Mr. Eschenbach turns out to be smaller than the difference between those of the IPCC and those of Mr. Eschenbach.
Based on the bomb-test curve half of the excess 14CO2 would be gone in 10 years, 70% in 17 years and 90% in 32 years. Mr. Eschenbach’s values for all anthropogenic CO2 are 26, 46 and 88 years respectively from the point at which all our emissions cease (which they will, but probably not until the fossil fuels have run out). We can perhaps end by agreeing that the hundreds or even thousands of years mentioned by the IPCC and others are more than somewhat on the high side. I should really have asked him what he reckons the IPCC’s corresponding values would be.
Finally, it would be mightily discourteous of me not to thank Bart for his persistence in answering numerous erroneous points made by other commenters. He concludes, by his own method, that there is a statable case that a significant fraction of the excess of Co2 over the presumed pre-industrial equilibrium arises not from anthropogenic emission but from temperature change, and considers it possible that the bomb-test curve may after all be as applicable to 12C and 13C as it is to 14C.
Who is correct? As I said in the head posting, it is not for a mere layman like me to say. But it does seem that the IPCC – as so often – appears to have exaggerated.
Monckton of Brenchley: “Mr. Born now accepts that the relaxation time derived by Professor Pettersson from the bomb-test curve appears, after all, to be correct.”
What I accept-and have never disputed–is that the bomb-test evidence should indicate the “turn-over time,” defined by the IPCC according to Mr. Eschenbach, as “the ratio of the mass M of a reservoir (e.g., a gaseous compound in the atmosphere) and the total rate of removal S from the reservoir: T = M/S.” Indeed, you reported in the head post that I positively asserted this by paraphrasing me thus: “[T]he excess 14CO2 concentration . . . would . . . decay with a time constant m/u.” And I have no reason to doubt Professor Petterson’s 14C02 curve from which ought to be able to infer that quantity. You also accurately represented my position that this “tells us nothing about how long total CO2 concentration would remain at some higher level to which previously-elevated emissions might have raised it,” and I have yet to find a reason for abandoning that position.
I have found the discussions of “relaxation time” too confusing to take a position on that.
Finally, I am the last person to sneer at another’s difficulty with mathematics; to paraphrase Gene Fowler, I have to stare at equations until drops of blood form on my forehead. I was merely disappointed that it had prevented us from making more progress.
Bart says:
November 23, 2013 at 9:55 am
Bart, good to hear from you. Perhaps what you say is true, perhaps not … but since here in the real world the turnover (molecular atmospheric residence time constant) is 14 years, and the e-folding time of an injected pulse is three times that at ~ 40 years or more, I don’t see why that matters.
w.
Lord Monckton, thank you for your response. Since I’ve answered your questions, perhaps you could answer one of mine. I refer to your comment cited above:
I don’t understand the math involved in drawing any conclusion about the e-folding time of an injected pulse (the “several hundred years” you mention above) from the turnover time.
We know the turnover time from the analysis of the bomb-test data. It has an e-folding time of 14 years.
How does knowing that tell us anything about the response of the system to a pulse? What is the math connecting a 14 year time constant for the turnover of airborne molecules to the e-folding time of the decay of an injected pulse?
So that’s my question. I showed you the math I used … now I’m asking for the math connecting the turnover time on the one hand, to the e-folding time of the decay of an injected pulse on the other hand.
My best to you,
w.
Approximately 1/3 of all fossil fuel derived CO2 emissions are from transport. Another 1/3 or more from coal fired power stations
During the period from 1980 to 1990 all vehicles around the world switched from emitting CO1 to CO2 with the introduction of the catalytic converter. Prior to this point, all petrol powered vehicle emissions consisted primarily of the deadly Carbon Monoxide, not the highly beneficial Carbon Dioxide.
During this same period of time we also saw the rapid industrialisation of India and China. Accounting for more than 1/3 of the entire global population.
That is more than a third of the words 6.5 billion population industrialising and a third of the words CO2 emissions (transport) coming on line in the same short 10-20 year period.
An “emission pulse” like nothing we’ve seen before or are ever likely to see again. Yet, there was no discernible signal, for these two massive simultaneous events, over and above the CO2 trend of 2ppm annual increase, already in place since at least the 1950’s.
This unprecidented human derived CO2 “emission pulse” is simply missing from the CO2 record. There is no signal for human CO2 emissions in the data. None.
That is a major problem the entire MMGW narrative.
Willis Eschenbach: “We know the turnover time from the analysis of the bomb-test data. It has an e-folding time of 14 years.”
Do you have an opinion on how solid that number is?
I ask because, unless I got some nomenclature fouled up, that value seems around twice what the IPCC says (and I opined above) it would be. As you said above, the IPCC defines turnover time as M/S, where M is total atmospheric-CO2 mass and S is its sink, or, in this post’s parlance, uptake, rate. And, ignorant of their definition, I had come to the same value (“m/u” after Equation (4) above) for the time constant of excess-carbon-14 removal.
But this source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide says M is 3160 gigatonnes, and this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_in_Earth's_atmosphere says S is 450 gigatonnes per year. That would make the turnover time M/S equal 7 years, not 14.
That’s what caused me to say above that “I may have found a flaw myself” in my own reasoning: the observed decay in excess 14CO2 seems to have taken twice as long as my reasoning would suggest.
Willis,
I think you do a great job of reminding people about the difference between turnover time and e-folding. It’s important and too little appreciated.
But I don’t think it is the distinction here. The difference between them is really this. Turnover time is the rate CO2 would disappear if the return pathways were blocked. It’s the oneway rate. e-folding is the two-way rate, taking into account the rate at which it returns from the sinks. In this case C14 can return. So it is a version of e-folding.
I think the clear mistake in the interpretation of Fig 1 is that it is a C14 fraction, ie ratio to C12. But to be an analogue for response to elevated CO2, it should be an absolute concentration, as if the C14 were diffusing independently, as it is. Now during the period of Fig 1, we’ve been pumping fossil C into the air that has no C14. So to get absolute C14 concentrations, the numnbers in Fig 1 should be converted.
What is plotted is Δ = [(C14/C)_now-(C14/C)_1950]/(C14/C)_1950
=1000*[(c14_now/C14_1950)/u-1]
where u=(C_now/C_1950)
u is the ratio by which total C in the air has increased
What should be plotted is
c14_now/C14_1950-1 = Δ*u+u-1
Adding u-1, which cound be up to about 0.2 in this period, means the correct Δ will never return to 1. We knew that, because Δ would have changed even if there had been no bomb tests (dilution). That makes a very different story.
Correction =1000*[(C14…
should be =[
It’s conventional to multiply by 1000, but that is not done here.
Ferdinand Engelbeen says:
November 23, 2013 at 1:28 pm
Myrrh says:
November 23, 2013 at 3:20 am
1. Carbon dioxide is being constantly washed out of the atmosphere as carbonic acid.
Myrrh, fresh water may absorb some CO2, but with 0.0004 bar in the atmosphere the quantities are very low. I calculated it some time ago: if the rain absorbs CO2 to saturation at the (cold) place of formation, drops to the ground and evaporates again, 1 mm of rain (1 l/m2) will give an increase of 1 ppmv in the first meter (1 m3) of air. That is all. Simply negligible…
The term “acid rain” was used for precipitation containing SO2 and NOx giving a much lower pH to rainwater than from CO2 (and effectively reducing the CO2 content, due to the lower pH!).
Ferdinand, I prefer calculations from the empirically established science on the subject which is as I have quoted example and which your post serves only to deflect from the point I am making.
Water is the universal solvent, this is ignored in AGW’s claims about residence time of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to the extent that rain, precipitation, has been written out of the AGW carbon cycle – this is absurd..
All, pure, clean, natural unpolluted rain is acidic, because the water in the atmosphere has formed carbonic acid with any and all the carbon dioxide it meets.
No matter how much carbon dioxide is introduced into the atmosphere, it will all be precipitated out in this – and – the residence time of water in the atmosphere is around 8-10 days.
2. Carbon dioxide is a real gas, it is heavier than air and will always sink in the atmosphere if no other work is being done on it.
That is right of emitted pure and in huge quantitities. Without wind it will not readily disperse in the rest of the atmosphere. But most of the (human and natural) sources of CO2 are relative small and/or already diluted when emitted. These quantities are reasily dispersed in the rest of the atmosphere, where similar levels ae found from sealevel to the lower stratosphere over the oceans and from a few hundred meters to the lower stratosphere over land.
Whether one molecule or thousands, carbon dioxide is heavier than air. It will not readily rise in air. It will always sink in air unless work is being done on it. That is its nature.
These are the two basic reasons why the gazillion tons of carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere from countless fires and volcanic eruptions over millenniums are no longer in the atmosphere!
Carbon dioxide cannot accumulate in the atmosphere because of its nature.
It is immediately apparent that any claiming carbon dioxide ‘accululates in the atmosphere’ are not scientists, showing as they do an abyssmal absence of knowledge about the real physical properties and processes of real gases.
This is all very well known in real science where such knowledge is crucial –
“CO2 is invisible and odourless, so it is difficult to detect a growing concentration caused by leaks.
Being heavier than air, CO2 does not dissipate easily.” (1)
So, when ‘climate scientists’ claim ‘carbon dioxide is well mixed in the atmosphere’ then real scientists in countless disciplines involving gases, including such as traditionally trained meteorologists, know they are listening to physical nonsense.
(1) http://www.boconline.ie/en/sheq/gas-safety/dispense-gas-safety/dispense-gas-leaks/dispense-gas-leaks.html
That is my point, until these two immense natural processes are brought back into discussions on AGW there is no science of the natural world being discussed.
Bart:
I apologize for failing earlier to acknowledge your response to my comment about the dye analogy you presented. That response did indeed make what you intended clearer.
To my way of thinking, though, ambiguities remain that frustrated my reducing it to mathematics. I thought of a way, but to me that way doesn’t seem very well to parallel what we know about the world, so it’s not likely what you had in mind. Additionally, the way I thought of involves some partial differential equations, which laymen like me don’t undertake lightly. (I remember finding the math challenging when I tried using them here http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/07/13/of-simple-models-seasonal-lags-and-tautochrones/.)
I won’t presume to ask you for a mathematical rendition of what you mean. Still, you may want to think about reducing your analogy to mathematics if you intend to use it further.
In any event, I thank you for your response.
Joe Born says:
November 23, 2013 at 12:53 pm
Actually, what I intended was:
The log should have been of the remaining fraction, not the fraction absorbed.
Many thanks,
w.
Bart says:
November 23, 2013 at 6:19 pm
Thanks, Bart. I tried that, and couldn’t see either what you were driving at, or what the outcome would be. Perhaps if you could explain it in real-world terms, rather than using an analogy of bowls and pipes, it might be easier to grasp.
In addition, you keep saying if the sinks are “powerful” something different happens than if they are weak … if you could produce the math for that, and indicate where and how the transition happens, it would help.
Finally, an exponential decay with a time constant of 38 years is hardly “powerful”, at least in my book. So I’m not clear what your claim has to do with the real world.
I offer you the same invitation I offered Lord Monckton—produce the mathematics that links the turnover rate of an airborne molecule, with the decay rate of an injected pulse.
I don’t think such a relationship exists. For example, we know that the sinks increase with the increasing atmospheric concentration … but for the turnover time, there’s no change in atmospheric concentration. So where is the relationship?
If either you or Lord Monckton bring on the math, a connection between turnover time and e-folding time might be believable.
Until then, I’m gonna stick with exponential decay for both, with no connection between the two …
Many thanks,
w.