Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
The Washington Post reports:
During an April visit to the San Francisco home of billionaire and environmental activist Tom Steyer, who created a political action committee in March to target lawmakers supporting the Keystone pipeline, Obama noted that the issue of climate change “is near and dear” to Steyer and his wife, Kat Taylor.
“But — and I mentioned this to Tom and Kat and a few folks right before I came out here — the politics of this are tough,” Obama added, according to a White House transcript. “Because if you haven’t seen a raise in a decade; if your house is still $25,000, $30,000 underwater . . . you may be concerned about the temperature of the planet, but it’s probably not rising to your number one concern. And if people think, well, that’s shortsighted, that’s what happens when you’re struggling to get by.”
I loved Obama’s description of economic trouble, characterizing it as “if your house mortgage is underwater” … around my place, that’s what is affectionately known as a “First World Problem”. But it beautifully illustrates the close relationship between economic want and lack of concern for the environment, even among people with money.
In this post, I will discuss the link between CO2 alarmism and environmental destruction, and how the work of the big environmental non-governmental organizations (NGOs) like Greenpeace and WWF is actively harming the environment.
Let me start with the two most important facts in the discussion about the global environment. First, half the people on the planet live on less than $2 and change per day. That’s why I said having your house mortgage underwater is a “First World Problem”. People living on $2 per day don’t have house mortgages—most of them don’t own houses, or much of anything beyond a few rags of clothing.
Second, only developed countries have ever cleaned up their own environment. Only when a country’s inhabitants are adequately fed and clothed and sheltered from the storms can they afford to think about the environment. And far from cleaning up the environment as wealthy countries can afford to do, people in poor countries are very destructive to the environment. Folks in poor countries will burn every tree if they have to, and you would too if your kids were crying. They will eat every monkey and consume the chimpanzees as the final course, and you would too if your family were starving. They will bemoan the necessity, they don’t like doing it any more than you or I would … but they will do it. Here’s the border between Haiti and the Dominican Republic:
Figure 1. Border between Haiti and the Dominican Republic. Guess which country contains eco-criminals that can afford to use fossil fuels, and which country contains nature-lovers who are dependent on natural renewable organic biomass for energy …
Now, given that poverty is the greatest threat to the global environment, the inescapable conclusion is that the only way the global environment stands a chance is if poor countries can develop economically.
And that is why the anti-development, pro-expensive energy stance of the large environmental NGOs is one of the great environmental tragedies of our times.
Here’s the chain of causality:
1. Climate alarmists, with the strong support of the major environmental NGOs like Greenpeace and WWF, declared war on CO2.
2. The method that they chose to fight CO2 was to discourage fossil fuel use by making energy more expensive, using a combination of taxation, legislation, international pressure, and expensive subsidies to achieve that end. Obama’s War on Coal, announced today, is just one of hundreds of examples of the wealthy NGOs and the rich governments working to increase the price of energy.
3. Since energy is development, expensive energy keeps poor countries in poverty. When the World Bank denies loans for coal fired plants in India, the poor suffer … but the environment suffers more. Until they can afford to use coal and gas, they’ll run the country on wood … I refer you back to Figure 1 for how well that works out.
4. Expensive energy slows a country’s economic development, and as President Obama pointed out, people worried about money don’t pay attention to the environment.
This ends up in a bizarre position—the actions of the major environmental NGOs are ensuring continued environmental destruction in the developing world.
I learned about the connection between poverty and environmental destruction in part through sad experience. I discussed my conversation with the indigent Costa Rican firewood seller, and how he was cutting his firewood in the National Forest, in my post on the parrotfish. Here’s the story of a longer and sadder interaction with poverty and the environment.
I live surrounded by forest now, as I did when I was a child. I draw strength from it. My stepdad was a logger, as was his father, and I’ve worked in the woods setting choker. I’ve seen good logging, bad logging, and downright criminal logging, and I’ve always been passionate about protecting the forest and about ethical logging practices. Here’s the view of the redwood forest from my deck earlier, still rainy today …
For a couple years in the late 1980s, I was the Country Director of the Solomon Islands program of a development organization, something along the lines of “Save the Children” but with a more general focus. Among the projects I ran was the “Walkabout Sawmill” program. It was a winner. Instead of giving money for disaster relief after a cyclone, we bought some portable sawmills made next door in Papua New Guinea. We trained some teams of guys to use the sawmills, and sent them around to the villages to mill the trees that had been blown over by the cyclone. The villagers got wood, our guys learned to use the sawmills. Then when the project was over, we sold the sawmills on credit to the teams of guys, so that they could use them to log their own native lands.
Why was I glad to assist them in logging the forest? Because I knew that it was far preferable to the only other option, which was the rapacious Asian logging companies coming in and clear-cutting huge swaths of land. Because of their poverty, the Solomons were selling their patrimony, their incredibly valuable tropical hardwoods, for pennies.
And how did their poverty lead to the loss of their forests? I can give you the answer.
When a country is poor, you can buy anything.
For several years in the late 1980s I lived on a coral atoll near a large volcanic island with the most euphonious name of “Vella Lavella”, in the Western Province of the Solomon Islands. At that time the Solomons had extensive tropical forests full of very valuable hardwood. Overseas logging companies were coming in, paying pennies to the villagers for their logs, paying off the customs inspectors, and shipping away barge after barge of the treasure and the patrimony of the islands, their tropical trees. So I was happy to be able to offer the people the alternative of harvesting and tending their own forest.
So at that time, a Malaysian company made a move to get the rights to log all of Vella Lavella island. Some people said no, but there were some that wanted it. There’s a kind of local island council, with about five “Big Men”, local leaders, who make the decisions. People were passionate about the logging issue, as you might imagine. There was a meeting of the island council, and the logging company made their presentation. The big men, to their credit, voted the logging down.
So the company pulled out their wallets, and bought them off right there on the spot. After the folks had left, they declared the Council back in session, and voted the logging rights to the company. The only problem was, the results of the first meeting had already been entered in the official record.
Of course, it’s the Solomons, and these were local guys untutored in the criminal arts. So they just took some whiteout, and whited out where they had said “No logging”, and wrote the revised vote right over the old one.
When I heard that, I was both amused and outraged. So some of us got the Public Solicitor to take on the case, he was enthusiastic back then, it was before his illness. He ended up catching the disease that a lot of white guys catch in the tropics, it comes in a bottle and makes you feel terrible, but this was before he got sick. So he argued the case brilliantly and got the decision thrown out of court, we all cheered him on and felt like we’d won.
When the court decision was announced, the logging company did the obvious thing—this time they cheated according to the rules. They paid the island councilors off, but this time they paid them before the council meeting, so there was no need to change the official record … I was mondo bummed, as were my local friends.
So that inexpensive purchase of the island councilors, I heard it was ten grand US$ per man, gave the logging company the right to negotiate a contract with the locals if they wanted to sign. One afternoon, some of the young Vella Lavella guys made the trip over to the island where I lived to ask if I would help them. I bought the beers, and we talked about the logging company. They said that they’d been agitating to convince the people to keep the company out and take care of their own forests. But the sentiment among the people was against them. They wanted the easy money, just sit back and let the company do the work.
So they asked me, would I look at the contract and tell them what it was that logging company wanted them to sign? I said sure, and they gave me a copy of the accursed document.
My friends, I’ve seen some sly, crafty ways to cheat and cozen someone with a pen and a piece of paper, but this one fair reeked of sulfur. Inside it, black was white and white black. Outrageous things were proposed as though it would be of benefit to the local folks.
And the logging regulations themselves in the contract were abysmal. A 100-metre setback from streams and watercourses is considered the minimum to protect the waterways from sedimentation. They proposed a 10-metre setback and claimed they were doing it out of concern for the environment. Nor was there any limit to the gradient which they could log. Usually, steep slopes are protected from logging because the erosion and landslides are so damaging … they had no protection for them at all.
Then there were the penalties for felling a tree outside the designated area … ten dollars US per tree. At that time the Solomons hardwood, when milled and dried, was worth about US$1,400 per cubic meter, and some of the trees had three or more cubic metres. That meant if the loggers spied a valuable tree that was not on the land they were allowed to log, they could fell it, pay the locals $10 for it, and sell it for five thousand dollars …
But we’re nowhere near done. Then there was the little matter of the price. This, the company said, was the best part of the deal. Elsewhere in the Solomons people were only getting three dollars a cubic metre, but this company, from the goodness of their hearts, was offering no less that $10 per cubic metre …
Then there were the roads. One huge benefit of a properly managed logging operation is that the local people end up with roads connecting the coastal villages with the interior lands.
Or it can be a huge curse, because if the roads are not properly designed and constructed, then they wash out in the tropical rains and the roadways erode into open cuts and the land takes years to recover.
Well, this document pointed all of that out. It talked about the various quality of roads, from the logging roads in the interior all the way up to paved roads along the coast. There were pages of road specifications, and lovely black-and-white pictures of asphalt highways running by tropical beaches, with only one small problem.
The document described the roads, and the places that they planned to use them, and how well made they would be … but nowhere in the whole document did they actually agree to build one single metre of road, paved or not. It was all just a smoke screen, they promised nothing.
So I went over the whole document and marked it up. Then I met up with the guys again, and we went over the whole thing, clause by clause. I’d re-written about two-thirds of the clauses, and I’d worked with my friend the Public Solicitor, and we’d put together a document that would be a good deal for the locals. The loggers would still make out, but like businessmen, not like highway robbers.
It was a long meeting, the guys had lots of questions, and we discussed each and every clause so they knew why I’d made the changes, and what the changes meant to them. After previous discussions with a couple of the guys, we’d also added a section setting up a trust for the majority of the money, so it wouldn’t all get spent on beer and outboards and be gone in six months. They were very much in favor of that, they’d seen money pissed away before.
Then they were ready to meet with the representatives of the loggers. They asked me if I’d come with them to the meeting. I said I couldn’t … another expatriate that I knew had gone mano-a-mano with the loggers a few months before, and within a week his work permit had been pulled, and he had to leave the country. I couldn’t risk losing my work permit, but I said I knew they could do it, they understood the issues.
They asked, could they meet in one of the guest houses that I rented out on the island? I said sure, no problem. They could have the meeting, and spend the night, go back to Vella the next day.
So the big night came for the meeting. Everyone showed up, loggers and islanders. I played the genial host, and left them to discuss the fate of the forest.
And in the morning? They all came out, shamefaced. I took one look, and my heart sank. I asked one of the old guys, one of the big men, what had happened. “Oh, the logger men were very nice! Can you imagine, they gave us a whole case of Black Label whiskey. They explained the contract, and it sounded wonderful, so we signed it” … oh, man, my blood was angrified mightily and I was in grave danger of waxing wroth … but I knew the old man, and he wasn’t a bad guy, just weak. So I curbed my tongue and shook my head, and I said that his sons might approve, but his grand children would wonder why he sold their birthright for pennies … then I went and talked to the young guys. They said they couldn’t stop it, once the big men were drunk they got combative and wouldn’t listen to anyone and they would have signed anything.
At first I was furious with the logging company, for being so sleazy and underhanded as to get them to sign drunk.
Then I thought, “Wait a minute …”. I thought, these Big Men are not American Indians who never tasted firewater in their life. They’ve all been drunk before, probably during that very same week. They know damned well what it does to your judgement. So then I was angry at them.
But then I thought no, they were just weak and overawed by lack of education and experience and money. The logging company sent in educated, smooth, charming guys wearing fine, expensive clothing and flashing lots of gold, big rings, chains. The big men were all dressed alike—shorts and t-shirts, brought in used or factory seconds in bundles from Australia. I realized that rather than get embarrassed by their predictable inability to negotiate with the loggers, they had taken the easy way out and gotten drunk.
Then I was angry at the young guys, for not standing up against the big men … that lasted about long enough to realize that under unbreakable tribal custom, they were expected and forced to defer to their elders, just as they would expect and demand that same deference when they got really, really old … like say fifty … life is short there.
It took a while, but I finally realized that unless and until the poor countries get to where people are adequately fed and clothed and housed, they would always be at the mercy of those kinds of greedy and amoral groups of men that have been with us forever …
And at the end of the day, I realized that I was on a fool’s errand. Oh, I’d fight the fight again, in a minute, but I’d lose again. It’s what happens when big money hits a poor country—the environment gets screwed, whether it’s logging, fishing, or mining. Until the country is wealthy enough to feed its citizens and to protect itself, its resources are always on sale to the lowest bidder … by which I mean the bidder with the lowest morals.
Now, I started this sad tale for a reason, to give substance to the damage that poverty does to the environment. When you can buy an island council for ten grand a man and there are literally millions of dollars at stake, that council will get bought no matter how hard I fight against it. Per capita GDP in the Solomons is about $600 annually, it’s classed as an “LDC”, a Least Developed Country … and in a country where ten thousand dollars is almost twenty years wages, you can buy many people for ten large …
That is one of the main reasons that I’ve spent a reasonable amount of time working overseas trying to alleviate global poverty. I do it for the people first, but I do it for the environment second.
And that is why I feel so personally betrayed by the current mindless push for expensive energy, a push led by the very organizations I’ve supported because back in the day, they actually used to be for the environment, not against it. Raising energy prices is the most regressive taxation I know of. The poorer you are, the harder you are hit by rising energy costs, and the more the poor suffer, the more the environment bears the brunt.
So this is where I came in, explaining about how people fighting against CO2 hurt the environment. Let me repeat the links in the chain:
1. Led in part by the environmental NGOs, many people and governments have declared war on CO2.
2. Their preferred method of warfare is to raise energy prices, through subsidies, bans, taxes, renewable energy requirements, pipeline refusals, and the like.
3. The rise in energy prices both impoverishes the poor and prevents the development of poor countries.
4. As Obama pointed out, even wealthy people with economic worries tend to ignore the environment … so stomping on the development possibilities of poor countries by raising energy prices is a guarantee of years of environmental damage and destruction.
I say that history will not look kindly on those people and organizations who are currently impoverishing the poor and damaging the environment in a futile fight against CO2, even if the perpetrators are wealthy and melanin-deficient and just running over with oodles of good intentions …
My regards to each of you, keep fighting the good fight. I’ve had a rat-free day, and so all’s well with the world,
w.
[UPDATE: For those who would like a bit more information on the connections between poverty and the environment that have lead to the photo shown in Figure 1, in 1960 Haiti and the Dominican Republic had the same per-capita real gross domestic product (GDP), They also had very similar physical conditions, as they share the same island.
By 2012, however, the per-capita GDP in the DR had about grown to about $9,600 per year (PPP) … and the per-capita GDP in Haiti had shrunk to about $1,200, less than it was in 1960. And as a result of the Haitians having almost no money at all, only an eighth of the GDP of the DR, both the people and the environment of Haiti have suffered badly.
As a benchmark for comparison, Norway has a per-capita GDP (PPP) of about $60,000, and the US, about $49,000. At the other end of the scale, the Solomon Islands, classed as one of the “Least Developed Countries” in the UN rankings, is also quite poor. It has a per-capita GDP about twice that of Haiti (and a quarter of that of the DR), at around $2,500. -w.]
UPDATE2: I wanted independent confirmation of the photo in Figure 1, because that could have been just one local patch given the small scale of the photo. So, I decided to check it out on Google Earth. While the entire border between Haiti and the Dominican Republic is not like Figure 1, there are large swaths in the northern part which are, for example:
– Anthony
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LOL, Willis said
Quote
Because if we could run cars economically on canola oil today … with all the pressure for fuels, don’t you think we’d be doing it?
Unquote
SO why are so many windmills being built and so many solar plants??
The guys earning usd $2 per day, could live better off two or three acres of canola according to your figures.
They are the ones that count after all
Thomas says:
June 27, 2013 at 8:35 am
Thanks, Thomas. Diamond’s book “Collapse” has been shown to contain a number of … well let me be generous and call them “mis-statements of fact“. Following that, he was sued by one of the Papua New Guineans he quoted in his New Yorker piece. At this point, if he told me it was raining, I’d look out the window …


Here’s an example. The FAO and the IIASA did a fascinating study some years ago, called the “Global Agro-Ecological Zone” (GAEZ) study. It analyzed the cropland of the planet for its suitability for use as rainfed cropland. When I read your list of Diamond’s claims, I realized I could test one claim easily, Diamond’s claim that Haiti has worse soils. Here’s the comparison of the country. Note that the GAEZ study is not looking solely at the types of soil. It also looks at rainfall, as well as at the steepness of the slopes, and the temperature, to determine suitability. Here’s the results for Haiti and the DR:
The graph shows the suitability of the land for raid-fed agriculture, taking into account all the variables including rainfall. As you can see, Jared’s claim falls apart … the suitability of the soil for raid-fed agriculture is nearly identical in the two countries.
Next, rainfall. Unlike many islands, Hispaniola doesn’t have a very distinct dry and wet side, because the trade winds shift with the seasons. Here’s a rainfall map
As you can see, most of both Haiti and the DR gets 75-150 cm (30-60 inches) of rain per year. There are rainier sections of the DR and of Haiti, but they’re up in the mountains. In truth, there’s plenty of rain for agriculture almost anywhere on the island … for example, you state (correctly) that the land has been logged, starting with the French a century or two ago.
But you don’t draw the obvious conclusion—how do you think that the Haitian forests grew for the French to harvest, if there was insufficient rain and the soils were too poor for agriculture?
In other words, my friend, you’re just another poor shlub who got fooled by Jared Diamond, put your name down on the list. Not the first by any means, my name’s on the list too, I used to be one of them. His claims grow more unbelievable every year.
My sense is that he shot his full load when he wrote “Guns, Germs, and Steel”. In succeeding work, he’s become increasingly frantic to find the new overturning theory that sets the world on its ear the way “G,G,and S” did …
My best to you, thanks for the comment,
w.
Grey Lensman says:
June 27, 2013 at 10:15 am
Umm … can you say “subsidies that totally distort market forces and support unprofitable green foolishness”?
I knew you could …
w.
Exactly
kadaka, I wasn’t talking about the 1999 law, but much earlier, for example during the Trujillo era. A rather nasty dictator who apart from enriching himself did protect nature and at one point went so far as to order a large scale massacre on people who had crossed the border from Haiti. That’s one way of ensuring the poor don’t “poach wildlife and trees to take care of their own first”.
Willis, interesting diagram and map, although I am somewhat amused by how uncritically you accept UN data on this subject. UN generally isn’t very popular on this blog. The GAEZ diagram is a bit coarse for any quantitative assessments on agricultural productivity too. The fact that agriculture is possible on a piece of land says nothing about the expected yields.
You say the rainfall is up in the mountains as if that rain didn’t count, but that water will flow down towards the coast and can still be used. While there may be enough rain on both sides for some agriculture, differences may still affect yields.
Your comment on forests is strange. Forests can grow on areas with low agricultural productivity. The trees won’t grow as fast, but then there had been plenty of time before the French.
I’m well aware that Diamond is somewhat controversial and has been known to overstate his case, but he still has a lot interesting to say, and I fear your counterarguments in this case are not convincing.
Thomas says:
June 27, 2013 at 11:29 pm
Thanks, Thomas. If you haven’t picked up on it, there is actually a difference between the FAO and the General Assembly. I use FAO data because I’ve not found it to be wrong, nor read anyone saying it was wrong. If you have information that it is bad data, let me know. On the other hand, if you don’t have a scientific criticism of the FAO or GAEZ data either, please reconsider your unpleasant accusation that I “uncritically” accepted the data.
The GAEZ website is here. Their results are reported on a 5′ x 5′ gridcell basis, which is about six miles on a side. And yes, contrary to your assertion, their analysis explicitly does give expected yields. Here’s their methodology (emphasis mine):
If you knew that and you actually think the GAEZ analysis is “a bit coarse”, then you don’t know what you’re talking about. On the other hand, if you didn’t know that, then you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Your choice.
Numbers, numbers, numbers. You should use them. The FAO says that land suitable for irrigation in the DR is about 6% of the total arable land, and it’s 4% in Haiti. In other words, rain flows down the mountains in Haiti too. In any case, at 4% and 6%, the areas are too small, and too similar, to be material to this discussion.
The French left Haiti in 1804, and took a lot of timber with them. But forests grow back, particularly when logged by oxen and hand-saw. Big-time logging in Haiti didn’t start until 1954, after Hurricane Helen blew down lots of trees. After they were milled up, the equipment was in-country, and the denuding of the country began in earnest. I hardly think that 19th century French loggers are responsible for the following:

Hey, I’m not trying to convince you, Thomas. Your mind appears to be made up, and I’m happy you disagree with me. I’m writing, as I always do, for the lurkers. They are the ones with the final say.
In any case, since you like Jared Diamond, here’s a quote from him (emphasis mine):
Jared Diamond is telling the same old story … on half the island, inexpensive renewable hydroelectric power allowed for industrialization and development, which saved the country’s forests. On the other half, you have Port-au-Prince, Haiti’s capital, along with the rest of the country, which for decades have all run on only the finest pure, natural, organic, renewable, biodegradable charcoal … do you see now why I say that expensive energy harms the environment, and that cheap energy helps the environment?
In any case, how is what Jared Diamond says in that quote any different from what I’m saying?
Best regards to you,
w.
Willis, I do not know enough about the GAEZ analysis to have any opinion on it, but I repeat that the diagram you showed does not give enough information to say anything about agricultural yields, nor was it very helpful of you to give the link to the main site if you want to point me to some map buried there which does give that information.
Your final quote from Diamond just shows that you see what you want to see. The Dominican Republic was rich enough, and had strict enough environmental laws, that they could afford to build hydroelectric dams and import expensive energy rather than cutting down their forests for (in the short term) cheaper domestic energy the way Haiti did. This is an argument for environmental laws, not cheap energy.
P.S. If you want to complain about “unpleasant accusations”, please avoid phrases like “In other words, my friend, you’re just another poor shlub who got fooled by Jared Diamond”. The combination makes you sound like a hypocrite.
Back here in the “first world”, the proponents of this goofy “raise the price of energy” idea state that tax rebates for the poor will balance everything out. Now of course, these rebate ideas rarely work, other than perhaps occasionally and in the very short term. But yet tax rebate ideas seem popular. It’s almost another example of the big men getting some good whiskey from the men in suits.
Thomas says:
June 28, 2013 at 1:42 am
… but despite admitting that you don’t know what you’re talking about, you’ll give us your opinion on it anyway. Pass …
Say what? Diamond said nothing about strict laws in that quote. Here it is again so you can check:
Point out the part about strict environmental laws in that paragraph, Thomas.
But yes, you’re right about the rest, Diamond did say that they were wealthy enough to build dams and to import inexpensive energy … so no, that’s not an argument for environmental laws at all. It’s an argument for ending poverty You don’t seem to understand that laws are useless when people are hungry. Let me repeat my story about the firewood seller in Costa Rica, to show you how much laws matter.
Heck, there’s lots of laws in the Solomon Islands as well, what the island council did was totally illegal … and the fact that it was illegal didn’t make the slightest difference. Why? Poverty.
Your statement was unpleasant because it was untrue. In particular, you made the false accusation that I accepted the FAO data “uncritically”. I did no such thing. I said if you had evidence that my acceptance was wrong, bring it out … you’ve provided nothing. Polite thing to do is either back your statement up with facts, or take it back. Your choice.
Moving on, you are right, I shouldn’t have called you a “shlub”, it was unmannerly, and I retract that entirely, and apologize to you for it.
On the other hand, near as I can tell, the essence of my statement is true. You in fact are a man who got fooled by Jared Diamond, and your latest post merely confirms it … the only good news is, it’s a curable condition. Look, “Guns, Germs, and Steel” was brilliant. I read it and thought (and still think) that it was a work of genius.
“Collapse”, on the other hand, had a number of errors, sometimes egregious errors. My conclusion was that Diamond was so desperate to be cutting edge, to be the man with the red-hot new theory, so anxious to be the “enfant terrible”, that he was rapidly making himself into a one-hit wonder.
This was only reinforced by his getting sued by the driver he used in PNG, and by the revelation that his entire article in the New Yorker was just a story that the PHG driver had made up and spun him to pass the time on the highway. The informant simply told Jared what he wanted to hear, and Jared fell for it entirely, and the result was he ginned up an entire theory of agression around the driver’s fairy tales, and got part of it published in the New Yorker … a misleading, meaningless theory based on nothing but one man’s tall tales that Jared believed.
So you’re welcome to think that Jared is a reliable source of information. At this point, I question everything he says.
All the best,
w.
Willis, I’m still waiting for you to give any quantitative estimate showing the Haiti has equal agricultural productivity as the Dominican Republic. You claim GAEZ shows this, but the one diagram you showed certainly doesn’t. So far you haven’t shown that Diamond is wrong in any fundamental way about the difference between Haiti and the Dominican republic, although your map on rainfall suggest that he may have been exaggerating a bit on that point.
“Diamond said nothing about strict laws in that quote.” It is however a reasonable extrapolation from the text, and in fact in his book Diamond does state that Balaguer banned commercial logging, which is confirmed here: “In 1967, Balaguer passed law 206-67, which banned lumbering and made all trees, including those on private land, property of the state, rules ruthlessly enforced by the newly created military-run forest police.”
http://home.sandiego.edu/~kaufmann/hnrs379/Holmes_2010.pdf
Diamond didn’t say anything about cheap energy in the quote either, and imported propane and natural gas isn’t exactly cheap. Your statement about cheap energy was based on your own bias, not on what Diamond wrote.
While you are right that poor people do cause environmental destruction it’s often small compared to what richer people do. Your firewood seller may poach a few logs, but in many areas of the world big companies do large scale logging in supposedly protected areas, mining and oil companies tear through nature etc. Laws and the ability to enforce them is what makes the difference, not poverty level. Richer countries often, have stricter laws and better ability to enforce them, but there you have a chicken and egg problem: do they have laws because they are rich, or are they rich because they have laws?
From wikipedia’s page on Costa Rica: “Around 25% of the country’s land area is in protected national parks and protected areas, the largest percentage of protected areas in the world (developing world average 13%, developed world average 8%)”. Picking Costa Rica of all countries for an example of how poorer countries can’t protect their nature was certainly odd.
Thomas says:
June 29, 2013 at 12:46 am
I didn’t say that “Haiti has equal agricultural productivity as the Dominican Republic”. Ever. So you’ll wait a long time for me to give a quantitative estimate for something I never said.
That’s your response? He wasn’t wrong about rainfall, he was just “exaggerating a bit”? Where I come from that’s called “wrong”. Try telling the IRS you weren’t lying about your deductions, you were just “exaggerating a bit”, and see how far that goes in the real world.
And I have also shown that his claim that the soils in Haiti are much poorer than in DR is total bullshit. That’s what the GAEZ study showed, despite the fact that you don’t understand it. Soils in the two countries are quite similar, not surprising since they share the same island.
Great. He said it in the book. I said nothing about the book. I just gave you a quote from Diamond. Do with it what you wish.
Bullshit. What do you think the part about hydroelectric power was about if it wasn’t about cheap energy? … you sure you understand these energy related issues? Because if not, here’s a pro tip:
Hydropower = cheap electricity
You might have a “chicken and egg” problem, Thomas. Me, I’ve been out in the field. When people and countries are poor the environment gets screwed. You seem to think it makes a difference whether the environment is screwed by the poor themselves or by the rapacious exploiting the poor. You can go all “chicken and egg” on that if you wish … me, I’m just recounting the facts.
Are you really that dense? The point is not how many parks they have. Heck, governments around the world declare parks all the time.
The point is that because of their poverty, poor people are chopping down the trees in the National Parks in Costa Rica.
Why is this so hard for you to understand? The actions of the environmentalists in fighting for expensive energy are keeping the world’s people poor, and when people are poor the environment suffers.
If you can’t figure out the chicken and the egg in that one, I’m not going to your restaurant for scrambled eggs …
w.
Some further information from the FAO …
Note the problem—illegal tree cutting. Why? Poverty. The DR, while far from being as poor as Haiti. is still poor … and the poor, as I said, will cut down every tree if they need it to stave off poverty.
w.
Willis, it’s clear you are so convinced you are always right you are uninterested in listening to other viewpoints, or even consider that you may be wrong, instead resorting to more and more insults. Further discussion is therefore pointless.
What is pointless is trying to argue from a false premise. I wouldn’t doubt that the border between the two countries in question is visible from space. To posit that this is based on soil and rain fall is untenable.
Thomas says:
June 29, 2013 at 11:28 am
My friend, I’m so far from “always right” it’s not funny. I’ve had to admit being radically wrong right here on WUWT. Heck, I’ve got a post here called “Wrong Again” … where’s yours? I’m always aware, all too aware, that I may be wrong. It haunts me, and it drives me to make sure my positions are backed by facts rather than by Jareds.
In this case, I have provided a host of details, citations, stories, facts, and analyses to back up my claims that poverty leads to environmental damage.
In response, you have provided … Jared Diamond saying it’s due to rainfall and difference in soils.
I figured OK, so I provided more details, citations, stories, facts, and analyses to show exactly why and where Diamond is wrong. He’s so wrong at times that he’s had to totally disown a full piece written in the New Yorker … so I went and spent an hour or so doing research, finding the maps and facts that show Diamond is wrong about Haiti.
In response, you have provided … more Jared Diamond. And accused me of insulting you.
I’m sorry, Thomas, but this is a scientific website. Diamond has been shown to be a very unreliable source. As such, your idolatry of Diamond means nothing without facts to back it up … and you haven’t provided any. Not one.
I gave facts about Diamonds false claim about the rainfall. You provided nothing to back up his claim, except to say it wasn’t an error, just an exaggeration … riiiight …
I also provided facts about Diamonds false claim about the comparison of the soils. You provided nothing except a complaint that you didn’t understand the GAEZ results … now, the GAEZ results are the most detailed and definitive comparison of the suitability of soils for farming that exists on the planet. I’m amazed that you think that Jared’s assertion somehow trumps the GAEZ results, and I’m sorry you can’t understand them, but I can’t help that. I can point the results out for you, Thomas, but I can’t understand them for you …
And now you say the real problem is that I’m convinced I’m right? Sorry, I think you’ve mistaken me for your mirror. Because even with all the facts I’ve produced, I’m still not convinced I’m right. I think I am right, of course, because so far, I’m the one with the facts and citations and maps and data on my side.
But if you ever extract your digit, and start providing us with something other than suspect claims from Jared Diamond, that could change. Because if the facts change, I change my opinion.
However, it seems you’ve decided to take your ball and leave, complaining that we don’t believe your uncited claims …
Gosh, I am so depressed to hear that. I mean, we’re so woefully short on folks who make wild claims that they can’t back up and then leave in a big snit, so losing even one makes a big difference …
Not.
w.
Hello Willis:
I’ve been away but in trying to catch up on WUWT I found that I just had to keep reading this post and comments. Fascinating, thank you.