James Hansen's Policies Are Shafting The Poor

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

I was reading an interview with Adrian Bejan (worth taking a look at), and I got to musing about his comments regarding the relationship between energy use and per capita income. So I pulled up GapMinder, the world’s best online visualization software. Here’s a first cut at the relationship between energy and income.

energy use vs incomeFigure 1. Energy use per person (tons of oil equivalent, TOE) versus average income, by country. Colors show geographical regions. Size of the circle indicates population. The US is the large yellow circle at the top right. Canada is the overlapping yellow circle. China is the large red circle, India the large light blue circle. Here’s a link to the live Gapminder graph so you can experiment with it yourself.

Clearly, other than a few outliers, the relationship between energy use and income is quite straightforward. You can’t have one without the other. Well, that’s not quite true, you can have energy without income. You can have (relatively) high energy use without having the corresponding income, plenty of Africa is in that boat. But the reverse is not true—you can’t have high income without high energy use. You need the energy to make the income.

Now, James Hansen is the NASA guy who is leading the charge to stop all forms of cheap energy. Coal is bad, terrible stuff in his world. He calls trains of coal “death trains”. He wants to deny cheap energy to all of those folks in the bottom half of the graph above. Well, actually, he wants to deny access to cheap energy to everyone, but where it hurts is the bottom half of the graph. For example, the World Bank and other international funding agencies, at the urging of folks like Hansen, have been turning down loans for coal plants in developing countries.

But as you can see, if you deny energy to those folks, that is the same as denying them development. Because when there’s less energy, there’s less income. The two go hand in hand. So what James Hansen is advising is that we should take money from the poor … actually he wants to deny them cheap energy, but that means denying them income and the development that accompanies it.

A look at the history of some of the countries is instructive in that regard, to see how the income and the energy use have changed over time. Figure 2 shows the history of some selected countries.

energy use vs income historyFigure 2. A history of selected countries. Colors now show crude birth rate (births per thousand)

Now, this is showing something very interesting. It may reveal why Hansen thinks he’s doing good. Notice that for countries where people make below say $20,000 of annual income, the only way up is up and to the right … which means that the only way to increase income is to increase energy use. Look at India and China and Brazil and Spain and the Netherlands as examples. (Note also that crude birth rate is tied to increasing income, and that the crude birth rate in the US has dropped by about half since 1960.)

Above that annual income level of ~ $20,000, however something different happens. The countries start to substitute increased energy efficiency for increased energy use. This is reflected in the vertical movement of say the US, where the 2011 per capita energy use is exactly the same as the 1968 per capita energy use. And Canada is using the same energy per person as in 1977 … so let’s take a closer look at the upper right section of the chart. Figure 3 shows an enlargement of just the top right of the chart, displaying more countries.

energy use vs income history closeupFigure 3. A closeup of Figure 2, showing more countries. Start date is 1968 for clarity.

Now, this is interesting. Many, perhaps most of these countries show vertical or near vertical movement during the last twenty years or so. And the recent economic crash has caused people to be more conservative about energy use, squeezing more dollars out per ton of oil equivalent.

But that only happens up at the high end of the income spectrum, where people are making above about twenty or even twenty-five thousand dollars per year. You need to have really good technology to make that one work, to produce more income without using more energy. You need to be in what is called a “developed” nation.

When people think “development”, they often think “bulldozers”. But they should think “energy efficiency”, because that is the hallmark of each technological advance—it squeezes more stuff out of less energy. But you have to be in an industrialized, modern society to take advantage of that opportunity.

So this may be the reason for Hansen’s attitude toward energy use. He may not know that most of the world is not in the situation of the US. This may be the reason the he claims that we should curtail energy use by all means possible. He may not see that while the US and industrialized countries can get away with that, in part because we waste a lot of energy and have a lot of both money and technology, the poor and even the less well off of the world have little energy or money to waste.

For those poorer countries and individuals, which make up the overwhelming bulk of the world’s population, a reduction in energy use means a reduction in the standard of living. And the part Hansen and his adherents don’t seem to get is that for most of the world, the standard of living is “barely” … as in barely making ends meet.

As is usual in this world, the situation of the rich and the poor is different, and in this case the break line is high. Twenty grand of income per year is the line dividing those who can take advantage of technology to get more income with the same energy, and the rest, which is most of the world. Most of the world are still among those who must use more energy to increase their income. They don’t have the option the US and the developed nations have. They must increase energy use to increase income.

And when you start jacking up energy prices and discouraging the use of cheap energy sources around the planet, as Hansen and his adherents are doing, the poorest of the poor get shafted. James Hansen is making lots and lots of money. He’s comfortably in the top 1% of the world’s population by income, and he obviously doesn’t give much thought to the rest. We know this because if he thought about the poor he’d realize that while he is mouthing platitudes about how he’s doing his agitation and advocacy for his grandchildren’s world in fifty years, what he’s doing is shafting the poor today in the name of his grandchildren. Of course Hansen is not the first rich white guy to do that, so I suppose I really shouldn’t be surprised, but still …

Increased energy prices, often in the form of taxes and “cap-and-trade” and “renewable standards”, are THE WORLDS MOST REGRESSIVE TAX. Hansen proposes taxing the living daylights out of the poor, but he won’t feel the pain. He can stand a doubling of the gas prices, no problem. But when electricity and gas prices double around the planet, POOR PEOPLE DIE … and Hansen just keeps rolling, he has quarter-million-dollar awards from his friends and a fat government salary and a princely retirement pension you and I paid for, he could care less about increased energy prices. He’s one of the 1%, why should he pay attention to the poor?

Forgive the shouting, but the damn hypocrisy is infuriating, and I’m sick of being nice about it. James Hansen and Michael Mann and Gavin Schmidt and Phil Jones and Peter Gleick and the rest of the un-indicted co-conspirators are a bunch of rich arrogant 1%er jerkwagons who don’t care in the slightest about the poor. Not only that, but they’ve given the finger to the rest of the climate scientists and to the scientific establishment, most of whom have said nothing in protest, and far too many of whom have approved of their malfeasance.

Their patented combination of insolent arrogance and shabby science would be bad enough if that was all they were doing … but they are hurting poor people right now. Their policies are causing harder times for the poor today, as we speak … and they mouth platitudes about how they are saving the poor from some danger they won’t see for fifty years?

If you ask the poor whether they’d rather get shafted for sure today, or possibly get shafted in fifty years, I know what they’d tell you. To me, hurting the poor today under the rubric of saving them in half a century from an unsubstantiated and fanciful danger is moral dishonesty of the first order.

So let me say to all of you folks who claim the world is using too much energy, you have the stick by the wrong end. The world needs to use MORE energy, not less, because there is no other way to get the poor out of poverty. It can’t be done without cheap energy. We need to use more energy to lift people out of bone-crushing poverty, not use less and condemn them to brutal lives. And to do that, energy needs to be cheaper, not more expensive.

Let me be crystal clear, and speak directly to Hansen and other global warming alarmists. Any one of you who pushes for more expensive energy is hurting and impoverishing and killing the poor today. Whether through taxes or cap-and-trade or renewable subsidies or blocking drilling or any other way, increasing energy costs represent a highly regressive tax of the worst kind. And there is no escape at the bottom end, quite the opposite. The poorer you are, the harder it bites.

So please, don’t give us the holier-than-thou high moral ground stance. Spare us the “we’re noble because we are saving the world” BS. When a poor single mother of three living outside Las Vegas has her gas costs double, she has little choice other than to cut out some other essential item, food or doctor visits or whatever … because her budget doesn’t have any of the non-essential items that James Hansen’s budget contains, and she needs the gas to get to work, that’s not optional.

For her, all her money goes to essentials— so if gas costs go up, her kids get less of what they need. You’re not saving the world, far from it. You’re taking food out of kids’ mouths.

You are causing pain and suffering to the poor and acting like your excrement has no odor … but at least there is some good news. People are no longer buying your story. People are realizing that if someone argues for expensive energy, they are anti-human, anti-development, and most of all, without compassion for the poor. They are willing to put the most damaging, regressive, destructive tax imaginable on the poorest people of the planet.

Now those of you advocating for higher energy prices, after reading this, you might still fool the media about what you are doing to the poor. And it’s possible for you to not mention to your co-workers about the real results of your actions. And you could still deceive your friends about the question of the poor, or even your wife or husband.

But by god, you can no longer fool yourself about it. As of now, you know that agitating for more expensive energy for any reason hurts the poor. What you do with that information is up to you … but you can’t ignore it, it will haunt you at 3 AM, and hopefully, it will make you think about the less fortunate folk of our planet and seriously reconsider your actions. Because here’s the deal. Even if CO2 will damage the poor in 50 years, hurting the poor now only makes it worse. If you think there is a problem, then look for a no-regrets solution.

Because if you truly care about the poor, and you are afraid CO2 will increase the bad weather and harm the poor fifty years from now, you owe it to them to find a different response to your fears of CO2, a response that doesn’t hurt the poor today.

w.

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Editor
March 16, 2013 1:33 pm

Hi Willis
I am now back in the UK but I was in St Gilgen Austria this morning and came across a road with your exact surname. It appears there was a writer called Eschenbach who hailed from the village as did Mozarts mother
http://www.weissesroessl.at/en-holidays-austria-culture-lake-wolfgang.htm
Have you got Austrian ancestors?
(Ps, intriguing article and an interesting graphic)
all the best
tonyb

johanna
March 16, 2013 3:59 pm

Another aspect which should be considered is the ways in which the effects of rationing energy (by making it more expensive) are frequently covered up with so-called “compensation” measures. In rich countries, this often takes the form of government payments or subsidies to pensioners and the like to “make up for” price increases due to carbon taxes and mandated ‘green’ energy boondoggles.
What they don’t tell you is that they are merely moving around a few crumbs of the cake (with losses along the way), but more importantly, they are making the cake smaller. Every business is poorer because of higher costs, plus someone has to pay more tax to finance the handouts. Worse, businesses become less competitive on world markets for no good reason.
This means less jobs, less growth and less wealth all around. And guess who the ultimate losers are when the cake becomes smaller? Not Mikey Mann and his pals in their comfy, well-paid jobs. It is those at the bottom of the heap who are a paycheck away from being homeless or destitute.
It is appalling, but perhaps not surprising, that rich do-gooders in the First World have no comprehension or care about what their policies do to people in the Third World whose lives they neither know nor care about, except in the abstract.
But deliberately sabotaging their own countries’ economies, and throwing their own poor to the wolves, really brings home the terrifying nature of those who want to ‘save the world’. As long as they continue to enjoy a high standard of living and plenty of international travel in service of The Cause, they don’t give a damn about even their own nest. Horrifying, and very scary.

Wamron
March 16, 2013 4:41 pm

Johanna, price tarrifs are not rationing. Example, Britain had rationing through WW2 and until, heck before I was born but about 195-something. Under that system, nobody (within the law) , not Rupert Murdoch, nor that bug eyed bloke who funds Eco groups, nor Gore nor Mann nor the King of England could purchase anything in any quantity more than the poorest pensioner. Thats rationing. It dishes the misery out equally. even the black market dealers (“spivs” and “wide-boys” so called after their preference for double breasted jackets two sizes too big accross the shoulders) served a socially equitable function as their deals often took unused excess commodities from some and bartered them to those who needed them. Eg two of Lord Fauntleroys collection of shotguns in exchange for the fuel ration held by a farmer and gameskeeper without guns who had no car to fuel.
Funny now you bring it up, anti-Ecos have often warned of rationing being on the Green agenda, but hey, that would actually be far better than things as they are.
I go further now, Id say fine, if you Ecos want to reduce consumption, then we should impose rationing on everybody. Lets have it so luxury food imports and foreign holidays are taken away from those who continually berate those of us who enjoy no luxuries and only travel as we have to in search of work .

DavidH
March 16, 2013 5:25 pm

Martin,
The article you linked to is primarily about India, which I think it a special case. It says that “Electricity demand exceeds supply in India by about 14 percent during peak hours” and “Factories and homes in the Asian nation switch on emergency diesel-fired generators during chronic blackouts”. I can see that there will be times when solar panels can displace the need to run diesel generators at all, certainly saving the cost of the fuel for duration. I doubt though that anyone has got rid of the diesel generators, because there are going to need something to provide power and the grid isn’t doing that.
In a similar way, there are remote towns in Western Australia where wind power actually works, because when the wind is blowing consistently, they can turn off diesel generators, genuinely saving money. It costs a lot to truck in the diesel fuel.
But these remote towns and all of India can’t be extrapolated to the whole industrialised world. Even for India, the equation may change in future. The same article says they plan to spend $400 billion “to curb the shortfall” [in grid capacity] and that grid power “comes from burning coal, which is about 4 rupees a kilowatt-hour”. So if diesel at 17 rupees per kWh is being displaced by solar at 8.78 rupees per kWh, surely grid power at 4 rupees will in turn displace solar when (if?) a reliable grid exists.

March 16, 2013 7:03 pm

Willis,
As much as I enjoy your posts, they always seemed a bit objective and scientific. I thought they lacked the more subjective element we call “compassion.”
I was completely wrong. I apologize.
I note McKibben has checked in. Does he honestly believe that clap-trap he links to? Either he isn’t as smart as I thought, or he trying to dely us and waste our time, (like the character Wormtongue in Tolkien’s trilogy.)
In a small way I am trying to alert people to the impending crisis. I don’t care if some think I’m just an old crack-pot grouch. (One good thing about getting old is that you can play the part.) Besides saying gruff things to young idealists, I have an obscure blog. Maybe I only alert between 20 and 100 people, but there are a lot of obscure blogs out there. It adds up.
One thing FDR did was take advantage of the “new media” of his time. Back then Hoover controled all the newspapers, so FDR used radio. We need to use the blogosphere, and do it now.
My small contribution:
http://sunriseswansong.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/big-freeze-in-britain-killing-the-elderly/

johanna
March 16, 2013 7:31 pm

Wamron, increasing prices is a form of rationing. You are conflating government imposed regulation of supply with the economic concept of rationing, which includes adjusting demand (and/or availability) by raising prices. Markets do this automatically, but when governments get involved, the result is always the same – everyone is worse off.
If a market raises prices, it is either because something is genuinely in short supply or because people are willing and able to pay more, to the extent that a firm can still make a profit.
When a government raises prices, it may provide some windfalls for lucky market players, but overall it reduces economic activity and competition, and makes consumers poorer. Choice and investment are determined not by real costs and market demand, but by government fiat. It has been tried many times throughout history, and never ends well.

Martin
March 16, 2013 8:59 pm

DavidH, Willis’ article was about keeping the developing world poor – or maybe keeping the industrialised world rich, not sure.
The Bloomberg article is just one showing how clean energy is being used to replace dirty energy in countries like India. Lots of people in places like Africa and Bangladesh are getting electricity for the very first time using solar pv. I read somewhere that in some states in the USA, wind turbines are taking off like nobody’s business.
It’s articles like this one that make me think there’s something in what the wife says after all. It just doesn’t make sense. (She believes in AGW.) The more renewable energy come down in price the better off will people be in the developing world, and reduce the awful pollution that’s there now especially in asia. I’m surprised so many people here are against it.

wheelsoc
March 16, 2013 9:29 pm

James Hansen’s actual proposal is not cap-and-trade or a carbon tax, but fee-and-dividend with the revenue being disbursed evenly to all citizens. This has the effect of distributing funds in such a way that the households at the bottom would actually receive more than they pay in increased energy prices so long as the richer use more energy than the poor. The very poor would not be hurt by energy price hikes from this, and in terms of government revenue it would be neutral because 100% of the revenue would be disbursed to the public. This increases the cost of carbon-intensive energy sources without adversely affecting those least able to pay.
Meanwhile because the cost of carbon-intensive energy is going to be increasing by known amounts as the fee is raised steadily, companies can invest in reducing their carbon footprint however they see fit: there is no government picking of winners and losers, no mandates for this-or-that solution, but a market-driven investigation into the most promising ways to reduce pollution. Technological advances, driven entirely by private industry and investments, help bring the cost of energy (in all forms) down to compensate for the cost of carbon-intensive fuels.
There is no favoritism or lobbying for advantage as with most Cap-and-Trade schemes, and it has the obvious advantage over a Carbon Tax of not disappearing into government moneypits and pork.
FAQ from the Citizen Climate Lobby, where James Hansen serves on the advisory board. More of the policy is outlined here in Hansen’s own words. It deals with common complaints about the typical policy solutions: that governments pick risky investments, that assumptions about renewables might not pan out, nuclear power, international cooperation (i.e. China and India), and so on.
Yet none of this appears here. It’s not even mentioned in passing. It seems to me that James Hansen’s real policy proposal has not been discussed in this post at all. That’s a rather glaring omission, especially since it’s designed from the ground up to address the very premise of this post; that making carbon emissions expensive will necessarily hurt the poor.

March 16, 2013 9:41 pm

RE: Martin says:
March 16, 2013 at 8:59 pm
Martin,
I’m glad you are thinking and asking questions.
I visited India in 1974 and again in 2000. The progress was obvious, in the Western Ghat. Hills that were stark and denuded in 1974 were covered with the green silk of young trees in 2000.
As far as I could tell, what made the difference was propane. People didn’t need to cook with dung, and this led to less over-grazing. People didn’t gather firewood either. Propane even powered the vehicals. There may have been fewer goats, but perhaps the boys herding the goats just were educated not to rip down the branches of the young trees. The barren landscape now grew grasses in the shade of the trees. It even seemed to be changing the weather. There were light showers in the dry season. Only a few hundredth of an inch, but that was unheard of when the landscape was badly over-grazed.
What made the difference. Propane. I repeat, Propane.

Henry Clark
March 17, 2013 12:09 am

With or without wealth redistribution transfer payments, part of the fallacy of Hansen’s proposals is acting like the economy is something which can be further shackled under increased energy costs without harm.
Everything from food to manufactured products has indirectly embedded energy costs, which are not compensated for just by telling poor people to apply for some welfare payments on their electricity bill and no doubt spend extra time and paperwork, a further drain on the economy in itself.
(As my prior comment discussed, there has already been very little real economic growth per capita in the U.S. ever since around the 1973 oil crisis and the rise of policy-influencing anti-industrial ideologies, once stepping past tricks of inaccurate inflation adjustments and skewed GDP figures to look at actual domestic physical production per capita and how many hours of work it takes to pay for a minimal residence of a particular size plus other living expenses, battered under increasingly overpriced non-competitive segments of the service sector from colleges to health care to waste in government spending).
Government-managed transfer payments and redistribution, taking money from previously successful businesses to give some to welfare applicants, doesn’t eliminate harm. The impact of energy on the real economy in general (not the “postindustrial” BS but the main living expenses which are primarily physical goods from houses to fuel) is so great that there is remarkable correlation between gasoline prices and unemployment rates in history:
http://www.google.com/search?q=gasoline+unemployment
(top results point out the correlation)
Gasoline is not electricity, but electricity is likewise important, in some ways even more so for manufactured products.
Moreover, even when there is government assistance to the poor, aside from encouraging dependence on the government (though the ideological proponents consider that a bonus), it is done through the biases of the individuals involved, the same kind of people (practically adult spoiled brats with no understanding of what it would be like not to have a bunch of relatives to fall back on) who make such brilliant freedom-respecting charitable policies (NOT!!) as to greatly increase the minimum cost of living and raise homelessness by having almost every U.S. metropolis ban monthly-rent apartments under around 400 or so square feet. For instance, a local craigslist advertises some offices of 100 ft^2 for actually just $140/month rent (about the size of a small motel room but still way better than being on the street), but every last place in areas legally zoned for residences is several times more expensive due to being forced to never, ever, ever be under several times the size. (Government housing assistance is commonly utterly inapplicable, made for those who have children without financial preparation first and who intend to be on the dole long enough for the wait times to be limited in context, yet not on relevant timeframes if ever for childless individuals suddenly involuntarily in an emergency; of course, given the fools in power, it could be dangerous if it was actually effective, as, if they didn’t mismanage it the current way, they’d likely overdo it in the opposite direction, until a slippery slope of eliminating incentives to work and overall economy collapse).

Steve Garcia
March 17, 2013 1:49 am

Those Gapminder charts are amazing. In 1800 no country had an average Life Expectancy of 40. As countries industrialized (and their people began moving to the cities), their life spans increased, with a couple of dozen over 50 by about 1875-1900. There was a bit of a plateau for them until ~1925, when (industrialized) pharmaceuticals became available, and since then life spans have really improved. Now about 20 countries have life spans of 80 or more. Just in the top 20 countries, in 90 years the average has gone up by 30 years!
For those in the USA who don’t know it, in 1900 the average life span was 49. We also have gone up by 30 years. MUCH of the initial increase was in child mortality. That cannot be said to be the case in 60-80% of the world’s countries now. Why? Because, once developed, better medical care and better natal care can be exported; they don’t have to invent or discover better medical care. These improvements have reached out across borders and made life across the globe better.
And now over 50% of the world’s population lives in cities. Is there a connection? Yes. Better health care, central heating, better access to more varied foods, easier lives. Rather than shortening our lives, industrialization has helped us to live MORE than twice as long.
Currently only Afghanistan and Sub-Saharan African nations have life spans under 50. Compare that to 1800 when ZERO countries had even FORTY year life spans on average. And even in those countries, life spans are going up, and are comparable to American and European life spans of the early 1900s. They are catching up, and they will continue to.
All of this is directly in opposition to what the greens/warmers like to think – that our children will have a worse world. WAY wrong, folks.
Industrialization has made the world not only POSSIBLE for 7 billion people, but it has made life BETTER for the vast majority of us.
I got no bone to pick in this. Gapminder has sources referenced for all its data. They are not making this up. I had NO idea the numbers are so encouraging. And I will tell you this: It didn’t improve because people moved from the city to the farms (except to live in housing developments in the burbs). The trend still is FROM rural TO URBAN.
One other thing: In 1900, when Americans lived only to 49, 90% of the workers in America worked on farms. Today? 1%.
Steve Garcia

Steve Garcia
March 17, 2013 2:22 am

Cobb March 16, 2013 at 6:50 am:

Carbon taxes and so-called “green” energy have a double and even triple-whammy effect. The first, and most direct effects have already been covered. They have a depressing effect on the economies of developed countries like the U.S., slowing business activity and/or forcing it overseas, and raising unemployment levels.

Now hold on just a minute, Bruce. The slowing of business in the USA did not come about because of carabon taxes or green energy. Green energy isn’t a pimple on an elephants bum. Carbon taxes came WAY after American businesses ON THEIR OWN chose to relocate manufacturing to Mexican maquiladores and then to China – all based on VERY cheap labor costs. None of those companies were forced to move overseas by anything more than higher profits, dude. Where are you learning your economics?
I was a senior design mechanical engineer, and up until 2000 there was a LOT of work in industry. ONLY when the manufacturing went overseas did unemployment in America become rampant. You must not remember the 1990s, when there were so many job openings companies couldn’t fill them. 2000 dawned, and POOF! sorry, America! China was willing to get its hands dirty making your products for you!
And don’t forget Wal-Mart’s hand in all that – forcing vendor prices lower and lower and lower, and putting hundreds and thousands of American companies out of business because Chinese labor was so much cheaper, American companies couldn’t go that low. Screw the Walton family and the boat they road in on.
I’d still be working if all the manufacturing companies hadn’t CHOSEN to go to China.
Steve Garcia
p.s. Adam Smith’s “Invisible Hand” – used by capitalists to justify their greed, is taken completely out of context by corporations. Smith was talking about exactly that – going offshore because of cheap labor. He said that KEEPING the manufacturing domestic was where the invisible hand kicks in. And what does him writing that in 1776 tell us? That capitalists have ALWAYS tried to offshore manufacturing – and ALWAYS to the cheapest competent labor market. (America prospered then. making textiles because English mills offshored to the cheaper American labor market.) The more things change, the more things stay the same, only now the shoe is on the other foot. When around 2000 the American manufacturers moved to China, the money they and their employees are NOT spending in the USA is what is hurting the USA economy.

Parthlan
March 17, 2013 4:34 am

Good article in the UK Mail on line entitled dated17 March 2013
“The Great Green Con no. 1: The hard proof that finally shows global warming forecasts that are costing you billions were WRONG all along”
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2294560/The-great-green-1-The-hard-proof-finally-shows-global-warming-forecasts-costing-billions-WRONG-along.html#ixzz2NnOou7wm

Wamron
March 17, 2013 5:55 am

Rober A Taylor….I got your e-mail, I took time and trouble to write you a reply. now you publicly declare you lost it in a daily emptied spam folder. Ergo, you are a time waster and an idiot.
You then go on to lecture me in public about things you cannot possibly know squat about.
Oi pillock, if you fancy living out your remaining years on bench in a street with your entire worldly goods in a plastic bag and your only clothes the ones you have on until one night you die of hypothermia………..well bully for you, I think that makes you a pillock who spouts loudly before he takes the first step towards the resemblence of a thought. You exhibit the same traits aswe are supposedly discussing in Hansen only far worse!
You and your obsession with depression. Thats as far as I need have read. Then I knew already you would be prating out of your rectal hole.Actually reading the rest confirmed this.
Now STFU!

Wamron
March 17, 2013 6:04 am

Johanna, you are arguing over semantics which dont affect the validity of what I said one iota. If we call your conception of “rationing” “rationing A” and my definition”rationing B” then rationing B still constitutes an equitable system which affects everyone equally. It remains the arguable case, which you have disregarded, that in a world dominated by Green agendas, rationing B would be afar more equitable status than rationing A, orwhatyou referto as “rationing”.

Wamron
March 17, 2013 6:08 am

One last comment from me in this thread.
I will be speaking out about my situation again. I want to see others here and elsewhere do the same. As I explained in a comment earlier, which, in spite of saying hw he likes my writing (maybe Ill try to do something to correct that) Robert Taylor evidently didnt offer me the basicrespect of reading.
I would appreciate it if I dont see anyone offering their glib “advice” in future, at least without my asking for it on a specific topic.

David Jojnes
March 17, 2013 7:43 am

feet2thefire says:
March 17, 2013 at 2:22 am
Cobb March 16, 2013 at 6:50 am:
“Now hold on just a minute, Bruce. The slowing of business in the USA did not come about because of carabon taxes or green energy. …. Carbon taxes came WAY after American businesses ON THEIR OWN chose to relocate manufacturing to Mexican maquiladores and then to China – all based on VERY cheap labor costs. None of those companies were forced to move overseas by anything more than higher profits, dude. Where are you learning your economics?”
Steve: Europe went through a similar process thirty(?) years earlier when Japanese products started to underprice European made products. We were told that the Japanese were “stealing our technology” (aka patents), “they work for peanuts,” “the quality isn’t very good,”
But, in the end Europeans bought Japanese cameras, because they were cheaper than those made locally. Then it became radios, then TVs, then new hitech products and eventually cars! Soon Japanese products were replaced by South Korean, more recently by Malaysian or Indonesean, now Chinese. In each case it was (largely) because they produced products cheaper (i.e. at a lower retail price point) than the predecessor. As you say, driven by lower labor costs. But also by increasing other costs, employment taxes, “health and safety” issues, paid vacation time, etc. I am sure you can recognize the comparision.
The driver is ALWAYS, “what will people buy.” You cannot force them to pay more for a domestic procuct which is more expensive unless you make it illegal for them to buy the cheapest or illegal to import prodcuts. Do you think that route would have been better?

Bruce Cobb
March 17, 2013 8:21 am

The bizarre thing is that here in the U.S., manufacturing is returning from overseas, thanks in part to increased labor costs in places like China, and also to higher shipping costs. Most sane people would like to see that trend continue, but anything that raises manufacturing costs such as forcing electric rates up will counter that.
A strong, vibrant economy is actually vital to freedom. Those who attack fossil fuels actually attack democracy itself, and are no less than traitors.

Robert A. Taylor
March 17, 2013 1:05 pm

Wamron says: March 17, 2013 at 5:55 am
Wamron says: March 17, 2013 at 6:08 am

Thanks for sending the email. YES, I LOST IT. Yes, I make mistakes. I’ve repeatedly said I have very little time on the Internet. I quickly scanned the Spam folder, and simply didn’t notice the wuwt in the email until too late. I just caught the wuwt as it disappeared and was unsure it was actually there. I didn’t expect it to be in Spam; others emailing to my address don’t go there. I am usually very tired when able to get access, and far from my best.
As to putting my reply in an open comment, I wasn’t sure you or WUWT had sent an email, and chose to reply in that manner to be more nearly certain you would get it. Also, I thought it an imposition on the WUWT moderator to send it on directly. That is far from the purposes of WUWT, and a typical large corporation would not even permit such things.
As to your condition, depression, and glib advice. Of course, I don’t know your actual condition. Depression in no way implies you do not have real problems. The two are separate issues. As a sufferer of depression which cannot be treated chemically because of my reaction to the drugs, your case still sounds like depression to me. That is merely an impression, not a firm conclusion. As to glib advice, I thought I mostly detailed my condition for your comparison; please read and compare.
At least you cannot say some on WUWT do not care, do not spend their own time on you. This is the case on an open blog where anyone can write anything, true or not. We do not truely KNOW, although you seem genuine, whether you are really desperate or not. You, of course, are in the same situation about the replies. That is not an insult, merely a statement of fact.
Please, email me again. I’ll try to be more awake, fresh, and aware.
BTW to send this I had to compose on one computer, get off, wait, go to another, then send. It may be tomorrow or the next day before I will have Internet access again.

Ray
March 18, 2013 4:10 am
Ray
March 18, 2013 4:36 am

Wamron says:
“Johanna, ………… in a world dominated by Green agendas, rationing B would be afar more equitable status than rationing A, orwhatyou referto as “rationing”.”
Wamron, Johanna is correct. Rationing by government decree disrupts price signalling and the Supply goes down, period. As a result, Poverty is the typical result of Socialism and Equity is not. The Elites always get theirs and at reduced price controlled rates at that, in your Socialist (Green) society and in your utopian Green Society there is simply less to go around. After the the Elite’s unequal share is taken off the top the Non-elites get the crumbs. It’s a lose lose for the poor compaired to the inequalities of free markets.

Fergus Mclean
March 18, 2013 4:51 am

Why not grant every one the right to a ration of energy at an inexpensive price so that everyone has access to what’s essential, while the excess of what anyone chooses not to use can be traded to those willing to buy more than their ration permits? This could be done with coupons- which could become the currency of the monetary system to follow the collapse of the petro-dollar.

Ray
March 18, 2013 5:49 am

Fergus,
What am I missing? From your description “energy ration permit coupons” are the functional equivalent of petro-dollars.
Given how these things can be managed in the real world we appear to have two choices. We could simply have the central Bank(s) print them in whatever quantity desired and give or issue them to people or we could take them from (Tax) the rich and redistribute them. So hows that working out with petro-dollars in the several working models around the world we have to observe today and what would make what we have different with functionally identical energy ration permit coupons?