In an interview with NewScientist magazine, Imperial College professor of atmospheric physics Joanna Haigh scoffs at the idea that late 20th century warming could have been caused by the sun:
Haigh points out that the sun actually began dimming slightly in the mid-1980s, if we take an average over its 11-year cycle, so fewer GCRs should have been deflected from Earth and more Earth-cooling clouds should have formed. “If there were some way cosmic rays could be causing global climate change, it should have started getting colder after 1985.”
What she means is that the 20th century’s persistent high level of solar activity peaked in 1985. That is the estimate developed by Mike Lockwood and Claus Fröhlich. The actual peak was later (solar cycle 22, which ended in 1996, was stronger than cycle 21 by almost every measure) but set that aside. Who could possibly think that cooling should commence when forcings are at their peak, just because the very highest peak has been passed?
Haigh’s argument against solar warming was in response to my suggestion that one new sentence in the leaked Second Order Draft of AR5 is a “game changer.” That is the sentence where the authors admit strong evidence that some substantial mechanism of solar amplification must be at work. The only solar forcing in the IPCC’s computer models is Total Solar Irradiance so if some solar forcing beyond TSI is also at work then all their model results are wrong.
No, no, no, Haigh told the NewScientist, it is “the bloggers” who have it all wrong:
They’re misunderstanding, either deliberately or otherwise, what that sentence is meant to say.
Look whose accusing people of misunderstanding. This woman thinks that warming is driven, not by the level of the temperature forcing, but by the rate of change in the level of the forcing. When a forcing goes barely past its peak (solar cycle 22 nearly identical in magnitude to cycle 21), does that really create cooling? Haigh should try it at home: put a pot of water on a full burner for a minute then turn the burner down to medium high. Does she really think the pot will stop warming, or that it will actually start to cool?
“Deliberately or otherwise,” this is an astounding misunderstanding of the very most basic physics, and Haigh is not the only consensus scientist who is making this particular “mistake.” Hers is the stock answer that pretty much every “consensus” scientists gives when asked about the solar-warming hypothesis. I have collected examples from a dozen highly regarded scientists: Lockwood, Solanki, Forster, Muscheler, Benestad, and more. Not surprisingly, it turns out that they are all making some crucial unstated assumptions.
Solar warming and ocean equilibrium
To claim that the 20th century’s high level of solar forcing would only cause warming until some particular date such as 1970, or 1980, or 1987, one must be assuming that the oceans had equilibrated by that date to the ongoing high level of forcing. That’s just the definition of equilibrium. After a step up in forcing the system will continue to warm until equilibrium is reached.
When I asked these scientists if they were making an unstated assumption that the oceans must have equilibrated by 1980 say to whatever forcing effect high 20th century solar activity was having, almost all of them answered yes, each giving their own off-the-cuff rationale for this assumption, none of which stand up to the least bit of scrutiny. Isaac Held’s two-box model of ocean equilibration is better than Mike Lockwood’s one-box model, but just move to the next simplest model, a three-box model of ocean equilibration, and any idea that longer term forcing won’t cause longer term warming collapses.
The well mixed upper ocean layer (the top 100-200 meters) does equilibrate rapidly to a change in forcing, showing a response time of less than ten years, but that isn’t the end of the story. As the top layer warms up it transfers heat to the next deeper ocean layers. If the elevated forcing persists then these next deeper layers will continue to warm on the time scale of multiple decades to multiple centuries. This warming will reduce the temperature differential between the upper and deeper layers, causing there to be less and less heat loss over time from the upper to the deeper layers, causing the upper layer to continue to warm on the time scale of multiple decades to multiple centuries.
This accords with what we actually see. Since the 50 year absence of sunspots that coincided with the bottom of the Little Ice Age, 300 years of uneven warming have coincided with an uneven rise in solar activity. Any claim that these three centuries of natural warming had to have ended by a particular 20th century date (never mind right when solar activity was at its peak), is at the very least highly speculative. To claim that we can be confident that this is what happened is borderline insane.
Or maybe it’s that other thing that Joanna Haigh insinuates about. Maybe there is an element of deliberateness to this “misunderstanding” where scads of PhD scientists all pretend that warming is driven by the rate of change of the temperature forcing, not the level of the forcing. How else to blame late 20th century warming on human activity? Some rationale has to be given for why it can’t have been caused by the high level of solar activity that was still raging. Aha, what if temperature were driven by the trend in the forcing rather than the level of the forcing? That would do it. Let’s say that one. Let’s pretend that even peak forcing will cause cooling as soon as the trend in the forcing turns down.
It’s one psycho-drama or the other: either Haigh’s insinuations about dishonesty are projection, accusing others of what she and her cohorts are actually doing, or she’s just dumber than a box of rocks.
Haigh also channels Steven Sherwood, pretending that the highlighted sentence is just about GCR-cloud
The draft report acknowledges substantial evidence for some mechanism of solar amplification and lists Henrick Svensmark’s GCR-cloud theory as an example of one possible such mechanism (7-43 of the SOD):
Many empirical relationships have been reported between GCR or cosmogenic isotope archives and some aspects of the climate system (e.g., Bond et al., 2001; Dengel et al., 2009; Ram and Stolz, 1999). The forcing from changes in total solar irradiance alone does not seem to account for these observations, implying the existence of an amplifying mechanism such as the hypothesized GCR-cloud link.
Haigh claims that the evidence about cloud formation being induced by cosmic rays points to a weak mechanism, then simply ignores the report’s admission of substantial evidence that some such mechanism must be at work:
Haigh says that if Rawls had read a bit further, he would have realised that the report goes on to largely dismiss the evidence that cosmic rays have a significant effect. “They conclude there’s very little evidence that it has any effect,” she says.
Rawls says that if Haigh had read the actual sentence itself, she would have realized that it isn’t about galactic cosmic rays, but only mentions GCR-cloud as one possible solar amplifier.
Aussie climatologist Steven Sherwood did the same thing, claiming (very prematurely) that the evidence does not support GCR-cloud as a substantial mechanism of solar amplification, then pretending away the report’s admission of clear evidence that some substantial such mechanism is at work:
He says the idea that the chapter he authored confirms a greater role for solar and other cosmic rays in global warming is “ridiculous”.
“I’m sure you could go and read those paragraphs yourself and the summary of it and see that we conclude exactly the opposite – that this cosmic ray effect that the paragraph is discussing appears to be negligible,” he told PM.
As JoNova and I blogged last weekend, this ploy inverts the scientific method, using theory (dissatisfaction with one particular theory of solar amplification) as an excuse for ignoring the evidence for some mechanism of solar amplification. Using theory to dismiss evidence is pure, definitional anti-science. Unfortunately, NewScientist gives this slick anti-scientist the last word:
“The most interesting aspect of this little event is it reveals how deeply in denial the climate deniers are,” says Steven Sherwood of the University of New South Wales in Sydney, Australia – one of the lead authors of the chapter in question. “If they can look at a short section of a report and walk away believing it says the opposite of what it actually says, and if this spin can be uncritically echoed by very influential blogs, imagine how wildly they are misinterpreting the scientific evidence.”
Sherwood and Haigh are flat lying to the public about what a simple single sentence says, pretending the admission of strong evidence for some substantial mechanism of enhanced solar forcing was never made, then trusting sympathetic reporters and editors not to call them on it. This is why the report had to be made public. After my submitted comments showed how thoroughly the new sentence undercuts the entire report it was obvious that the consensoids who run the IPCC would take the sentence right back out, and here Sherwood and Haigh are already trying to do exactly that.
Too late, anti-scientists. Your humbug is on display for the whole world to see.

Why do these simpletons continue (seemingly forever) to state things thus; “… they are misinterpreting the scientific evidence …”?
I really need to see the beef here. Seriously. I am fed up to the back teeth with these claims. They are not being honest. They reference the ‘evidence’ backing up in screeds, paid for in the blood of third-world strangers and ignoring cause. The evidence that the world has warmed since the LIA. We are drowning in this.
But they are pretending that what they really mean is their evidence to show cause – specifically, bad monkeys burning stuff. Of which they have 0.000
Sleight of mouth.
They strut about acting as if they are arbiters of truth yet lean on a staff created from guesswork and vanity.
There is no justice, just us.
FOA D Böehm
‘cherry-pick only those facts that support their agenda’ please explain? Give examples.
‘There are no fast rising seas’ well it depends what you mean? I think its expected 1mm per year at the moment, which would equal 1 metre over 100 years. But an avalanche has to start with the first snowflake moving and them due to positive feedback tons are moved within no time at all. The snow moves to a new state and comes to rest! Ring any bells? Climate change in other words!
‘global warming has stopped’ says who? The Daily Mail? Or as I know it The Daily Fail! Where THEY cherry picked a part of a graph, not informing that there are temperature rises coming along (due to ocean oscillations, etc), that’s going to make them look silly! Basically they picked the start and stop points to make it appear that GW has stopped. FAIL.
‘takes the place of the scientific facts I asked you to provide’ well I have supplied evidence on this thread previously, but the mod don’t seem happy and it goes AWOL into hyper space! But try this
‘You have no scientific evidence proving that AGW exists’ you have a larf or what!
New monitoring system identifies carbon dioxide from fossil fuel burning
‘Researchers have developed a new monitoring technique to distinguish emissions from man-made fossil fuels in the atmosphere from other gases, a technique that likely could be used to monitor the effectiveness of measures regulating greenhouse gases.
The team examined six years-worth of atmospheric gas measurements of carbon dioxide (CO2) and other gases, taken by aircraft every two weeks. Their method allowed them to separate CO2 derived from fossil fuels from CO2 being emitted by biological sources, such as plant respiration, said Scott Lehman, a senior research associate at the University of Colorado, Boulder, who led the study with John Miller, a research associate at the university.
The separation was made possible by the fact that CO2 released from burning of fossil fuels like coal, oil, and gas has no carbon-14, a radioactive form of carbon that is constantly forming in Earth’s atmosphere. Because carbon-14 is radioactive, it decays, or transforms, into another, nonradioactive element over time. Half of a given amount of the substance decays every 5,700 years so fossil fuels, which are derived from remains of plants and other organic matter that accumulated millions of years ago, no longer contain the radioactive carbon. In contrast, CO2 emitted from current biological sources is relatively rich in carbon-14. It’s a significant enough difference for atmospheric scientists to detect, Lehman said’
http://www.agu.org/news/press/pr_archives/2012/2012-20.shtml
‘Get back to us’ I have but I’m not dancing to your tune!
Alec Rawls says:
December 21, 2012 at 12:27 pm
GCR is a proxy, for instance, for the UV shift that accompanies variation in solar magnetic activity. This UV shift drives stratospheric ozone creation when solar activity is high, possibly altering atmospheric circulation patterns.
Apart from what the authors actually said [read it again and again and again and …, if need be], UV has not shown any trend since 1722, only faithfully followed the sunspot number which also does not have any trend over the 300 years, so cannot be involved in any climate trend. But perhaps you are denying that the climate has a trend over that time?
lgl says:
December 21, 2012 at 12:47 pm
<i.Six high cycles in a row means more energy received than three high cycles.
It means that more energy was radiated back to space as well.
TSI has increased 0.2 W/m2 or 0.015% which would raise the temperature 0.01 degree.
Apart from the fact there were not ‘six high cycles in a row’.
Leif says
Paul Homewood says:
December 21, 2012 at 12:38 pm
It does not answer my question , Leif.
The Figure shows that the MWP was ending long before solar activity began to drop and the MWP was unaffected by the grand solar minimum around 650AD, so the partial answer is that the MWP and the LIA have nothing to do with solar activity, but are driven by the stochatic variations any complex system [like the climate] has.
Thanks for that Leif.
Which brings us back to my original question.
What did cause the MWP to start declining into the LIA in the 13thC?
lsvalgaard says:
No, IPCC says that TSI does not explain the reported correlations between GCRs and climate [without acknowledging that those correlations are even valid] and then goes on the examine the GCR-cloud link and concludes that that doesn’t work:
You shouldn’t say “No” to preface a statement that is consistent with my comments.
[my bold: ‘these’ clearly refers to the ‘reported correlations between GCRs and climate’ and not to anything else]
[your err: ‘these’ clearly refers to the ‘reported correlations between GCRs and climate’ and
not to anything elsethat is a topic that is about much more than GCRs alone. GCRs are only part of that correlation. Obviously, climate mechanisms are also part of that, and clouds are only one potential mechanism. Non-GCR solar factors and non -solar factors are also potentials, and thus also part of what is referenced in that statement. But then, I said that already.]lgl says:
December 21, 2012 at 12:47 pm
Six high cycles in a row means more energy received than three high cycles.
It means that more energy was radiated back to space as well.
TSI has increased 0.2 W/m2 or 0.015% which would raise the temperature 0.01 degree.
Apart from the fact there were not ‘six high cycles in a row’.
Paul Homewood says:
December 21, 2012 at 1:02 pm
Which brings us back to my original question.
What did cause the MWP to start declining into the LIA in the 13thC?
What do you think? It is clear that it was not declining solar activity. The wider question is “why are there those long-term swings in climate. One answer could be that any sufficiently complex system has natural, internal fluctuations and Earth’s climate may not be an exception. The same could be said for solar activity. Why are they grand minima at seemingly random times?
JJ says:
December 21, 2012 at 1:03 pm
[your err: ‘these’ clearly refers to the ‘reported correlations between GCRs and climate’ and not to anything else that is a topic that is about much more than GCRs alone.
You may think so, but it is clear that the IPCC authors were only referring to the ‘reported correlations between GCRs and climate’ and nothing else. You could fault them for that, not me.
Phillip Bratby says:
December 21, 2012 at 10:34 am
When I was a student of physics at Imperial many years ago, it was a renowned college, part of the University of London. Since then it has become a separate organisation and has become commercialised.
I was there too, some decades ago. Professor Leventhal occasionally would remind us that the ‘science is built on reasoning of an individual’; such a contrast to the daily yelling ‘spurious, spurious’ by certain Dr. .S.
Carter says:
December 21, 2012 at 12:55 pm
FOA D Böehm
..I think its expected 1mm per year at the moment, which would equal 1 metre over 100 years….
WTF? the last time I checked, there were 1000 millimetres in a metre!
Paul Dennis.
Good to hear from you again Paul.
‘The work presented in the thesis indicate that the largest Forbush decreases affect aerosol formation and in turn cloud cover on a global scale.”
When time permits I’ll look at the data again, but there were so many ways to cut the data that I was concerned about the issues of multiple tests. Simply, cut the data 20 different ways and you will find an effect by chance.
Nicola Scafetta says:
December 21, 2012 at 12:20 pm
Leif’s position is considered unlikely even by the IPCC
Now, there is a recent TSI reconstruction by Shapiro et al. which postulates a large change since the Maunder Minimum, but as the IPCC states [in the Supplement to Chapter 8]”
“The analysis of Shapiro et al (2011) falls outside the range 0.08–0.18 W m–2 reported above: 0.78 W m–2. Studies of magnetic field indicators suggest that changes over the 19th and 20th centuries were more modest than those assumed in the Shapiro et al. (2011) reconstruction (Lockwood and Owens, 2011; Svalgaard and Cliver, 2010). Also, analysis by Feulner (2011) indicate that temperature simulations driven by such a large solar forcing are inconsistent with
reconstructed and observed historical temperatures, while use of a forcing in line with the range presented here are consistent. Hence we do not include this larger forcing within our assessed range. Schrijver et al. (2011) and Foukal et al. (2011) find a RF which is consistent with the RF range given above (0.08–0.18 W m–2″
Leif says
Paul Homewood says:
December 21, 2012 at 1:02 pm
“Which brings us back to my original question. What did cause the MWP to start declining into the LIA in the 13thC?”
What do you think? It is clear that it was not declining solar activity.
I don’t know, Lief!!
What I do know is that until we understand the question , we cannot start to answer what caused the LIA to end.
D Böehm says:
December 21, 2012 at 8:44 am (Edit)
Steven Mosher says:
“When I challenge believers in Svensmark AGW to state a testable hypothesis, they all go silent.”
There. Fixed it for you. ☺
################
falsifying AGW is simple. Show that c02 is not opaque to IR.
Paul Homewood says:
December 21, 2012 at 11:44 am
Until we understand why the MWP dropped away into the LIA, we cannot understand how the LIA ended. … This seems to be the elephant in the room that so many scientists like Haigh try to ignore.
lsvalgaard says:
December 21, 2012 at 11:51 am
It seems to me that the solar enthusiasts are the ones ignoring the elephant.
Dr. S. often quotes the Loehle reconstruction, it does look OK. Here is what I found
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LL.htm (do I here ‘spurious, spurious’ ?)
Not perfect, but what it is?
hmmm…., possibly the Dr. Svalgaard’s reworked TSI, but only when he finishes off couple of ‘wiggles’ still left in the data; work in progress.
vukcevic says:
December 21, 2012 at 1:19 pm
the ‘science is built on reasoning of an individual’; such a contrast to the daily yelling ‘spurious, spurious’ by certain Dr. .S.
You might want to remind the readers that I have given ample reasons for the assessment that your correlations are spurious.
Paul Homewood says:
December 21, 2012 at 1:32 pm
What I do know is that until we understand the question , we cannot start to answer what caused the LIA to end.
almost everybody on this thread seems to a priory disagree with you [and me] claiming: “it is the Sun, stupid”.
Nicola Scafetta says:
December 21, 2012 at 12:20 pm
“Leif’s position is extreme in the sense that he claims that TSI did not vary at all during the last 300 year and more. ”
lsvalgaard says:
December 21, 2012 at 11:59 am
“There has been a roughly 100-yr ‘cycle’ in activity the past 300 years, so numbers go up and down.”
Hmmm, Leif’s comment was at 11:59 and Nicola’s was at 12:20. But I recall that Leif, many times, has said “the sun doesn’t vary enough” but an echo would be that it does vary. What else could “numbers go up and down” mean?
As the old saying goes “there are none so blind as those who do not want to see”..
Regarding the excess of wind turbines etc – all these will be recycled (using the normal methods), two reasons:
1. Those operating them will go to the wall and all the equipment will be available at fire sale prices (never were independently financially viable);
2. The metals and masses of rare earth materials they contain are well worth recycling.
Such materials could be used to produce much more efficient hydro electric or nuclear for instance.
I just wish one or two wind turbines could be preserved, with the following notice:
A memorial to Dumb Group Think – never let your science be led by a political agenda – the results are always illogical, expensive and totally useless.
Kev-in-Uk says:
WTF? the last time I checked, there were 1000 millimetres in a metre!
Chuckle..
Methinks young Carter his hit his head on the ceiling waaaay too often
(comes from standing on the shoulder of giants 😉
vukcevic says:
December 21, 2012 at 1:35 pm
Here is what I found http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/LL.htm (do I hear ‘spurious, spurious’ ?)
Yep. Assuming you still use the secular variation at the South Pole. The problem here is that there were no measurements at all of the intensity before Gauss figured out how to do it in 1832, and that there were no measurements of any magnetic elements in the interior of Antarctica before the IGY in 1957, so any claim relying on the South Pole ‘data’ before 1957 is suspect. The models we have [which you use] were based on linear extrapolation back in time of the trend back to 1832 and on spatial extrapolation from lower [mostly Northern] latitudes to Antarctica.
Steven Mosher,
That is not empirical evidence. The observable real world shows no warming for a decade and a half, while CO2 continues to rise. Further, the planet has warmed along the same trend line [the declining green line] since the LIA. Global warming has not recently accelerated [in fact it has stopped]. Therefore: CO2 does not have the claimed effect.
Carter:
Thank you for your long and pointless explanation of rising CO2, some of which is anthropogenic in origin. But so what? We all knew that has been the case. It simply shows that CO2 does not matter.
You are avoiding the central question with your strawman argument: has the rise in [harmless, beneficial] CO2 caused runaway global warming [or even any global warming on top of the long term trend]?
The answer is no. The long term global warming trend is the same now as it has been since the LIA. CO2 has had no measurable effect. None. As we see, the spurious correlation between CO2 and T has broken down. It was just a temporary coincidence between about 1980 and 1998. That coincidence has ended.
Finally, it has been pointed out to you that your 1 mm/year sea level rise only amounts to a few inches per century. The only thing we really have to be alarmed about is your sad arithmetic skillz. ☺
Paul Dennis says:
December 21, 2012 at 9:40 am
Very interesting abstract. I’ve been wondering if there are GCR aerosol interactions in cloud seeding, and it appears there are.
During the period from the 1970s to around 2000 there were very substantial changes in the levels of anthropogenic aerosols (plus black carbon and other particulates) across much of the world from clean air initiatives, catalytic converters, power station scrubbers, etc. And until we have a better understanding of GCR aerosol interactions, I doubt we can draw any firm conclusions about the effects of GCRs.
Steven Mosher says:
December 21, 2012 at 1:32 pm
D Böehm says:
December 21, 2012 at 8:44 am (Edit)
Steven Mosher says:
“When I challenge believers in Svensmark AGW to state a testable hypothesis, they all go silent.”
There. Fixed it for you. ☺
################
falsifying AGW is simple. Show that c02 is not opaque to IR.
==============================================================
A layman here but it seems that the crucial part is in the “A” of AGW.
PS This is not meant as a point of arguement but just get an idea where you are coming from, you support the AGW hypothesis. Do you support the CAGW hypothesis? If you’d rather not say or aren’t sure, that’s OK. I see your name pop up alot and am just curious.