This comment from Dr. Robert Brown at Duke University is elevated from a comment to a full post for further discussion. Since we have a new paper (Shepherd et al) that is being touted in the media as “certain” using noisy data with no stable baseline, this discussion seems relevant.
So wait, you are saying that fossil fuels do not cause warming, but that if we shift away from them to clean energies, there is a risk of the earth cooling? Uh, could you just think that through and try agan?
No, that’s just some people on the list who are “certain” — with no more grounds than those of the warmists — that the Earth is about to cool. In the long run, of course, they are correct — the current interglacial (the Holocene) is bound to end at some point soon in geological time, but that could be anytime from “starting right now” to “in a thousand years” or even longer. Some are silly enough to fit a sine function to some fragment of data and believe that that has predictive value.
The problem is that nobody knows why the Eocene ended and the Pleistocene (the current ice age) started, and nobody knows exactly where and why the Pliestocene is a modulated series of glaciations followed by brief stretches of interglacial.
There are theories — see e.g. the Milankovitch cycle — but they have no quantitative predictive value and the actual causal mechanism is far from clear. So we do not know what the temperature outside “should” be, with and/or without CO_2. We do know historically that the Little Ice Age that ended around 200 years ago was tied for the coldest century long stretch of the entire Holocene — that is, the coldest for the last 11,000 or so years (where it might surprise you to learn that the Holocene Optimum was between 1.5 and 2 C warmer than it is today, without CO_2).
So the fact of the matter is that there is a risk of the Earth cooling — in fact, there is a risk of a return to open glaciation, the start of the next 90,000 year glacial era — but it is not a particularly high risk and we have no way to meaningfully do much better than to say “sometime in the next few centuries”. CO_2 might, actually, help prevent the next glacial era (or at least, might delay it) but even that is not clear — the Ordovician-Silurian ice age began with CO_2 levels of 7000 ppm. That is around 17 times the current level, almost 1% of the atmosphere CO_2 — and persisted for millions of years with CO_2 levels consistently in the ballpark of 4000 ppm. If the Earth’s climate system (which we do not understand, in my opinion, well enough to predict even a single decade out let alone a century) decides it is time for glaciation, I suspect that nothing we can do will have any meaningful effect on the process, just as I don’t think that we have had any profound warming influence on the Earth so far.
The fundamental issue is this. We have some thirty three years of halfway decent climate data — perhaps twice that if you are very generous — which is the blink of an eye in the chaotic climate system that is the Earth. There has been roughly 0.3 C warming over that thirty-three year stretch, or roughly 0.1 C/decade. It is almost certain that some fraction of that warming was completely natural, not due to human causes and we do not know that fraction — a reasonable guess would be to extrapolate the warming rate from the entire post LIA era, which is already close to 0.1 C/decade. It is probably reasonable to assign roughly 0.3 C total warming to Anthropogenic CO_2 — that is everything, not just the last thirty years but from the beginning of time. It might be as much as 0.5C, it might be as little as 0.1C (or even be negative), but the physics suggests a warming on the order of 1.2 C upon a complete doubling of CO_2 if we don’t pretend to more knowledge than we have concerning the nature and signs of the feedbacks.
At the moment there is little reason to think that we are headed towards catastrophe. When the combined membership of the AMA and AGU were surveyed — this is surveying climate scientists in general, not the public or the particular climate scientists that are most vocal on the issue — 15% were not convinced of anthropogenic global warming at all, and over half of them doubted that the warming anthropogenic or not would be catastrophic. It’s the George Mason survey — feel free to look it up. The general consensus was, and remains, that there has definitely and unsurprisingly been warming post LIA, that humans have caused some part of this (how much open to considerable debate as the science is not settled or particularly clear), that there is some chance of it being “catastrophic” warming in the future, a much larger chance that it will not be, and some chance that it will not warm further at all or even cool.
The rational thing to do is to continue to pursue the science, especially the accumulation of a few more decades of halfway decent data, until that science becomes a bit clearer, without betting our prosperity and the prosperity of our children and the calamitous and catastrophic perpetuation of global poverty and untold misery in the present on the relatively small chance of the warming being catastrophic and there being something we can do about it to prevent it from becoming so.
So far, if catastrophe is in the cards, the measures proposed won’t prevent it even according to those that predict it! In fact, it won’t have any effect on the catastrophe at all according to the worst case doom and gloomers. We could stop burning carbon worldwide tomorrow and if the carbon cycle model currently in favor with the CAGW crowd is correct (which I doubt) it would take centuries for the Earth’s CO_2 level to go back to “normal” — whatever that means, given that it varies by almost a factor of 2 completely naturally from glacial era to interglacial. In fact, according to that model the CO_2 levels will continue to go up as long as we contribute any CO_2 at all, because they’ve stuck an absurdly long relaxation time into their basic system of equations (one with very little empirical foundation, again IMO).
Again, I suggest that you reread the top article carefully. I actually do not think it is the best example of Monckton’s writing — a few people have noted that its tone is not terribly elevating, and I have to agree — but I sense and sympathize with his frustration, given the content of the article. There is a stench of hypocrisy that stretches from Al Gore’s globe-hopping by jet and his huge house and large car all the way to a collection of people with nothing better to do who have jetted to Doha to have a big party and figure out how to continue their quest for World Domination, hypocrisy with king-sized blinders that seem quite incapable of permitting the slightest bit of doubt to enter, even when bold predictions like those openly made in the 2008 report come back to bite them in the ass.
I myself am not a believer in CAGW. Nor am I a disbeliever. The only thing that I “believe” in regarding the subject is our own ignorance, combined with a fairly firm belief that there is little reason to panic visible in the climate record, and that is before various thumbs were laid firmly on the scales. Remove those thumbs and there is even less reason to panic.
My own prediction for the climate is this. We will probably continue to experience mild warming for another ten to twenty years — warming on the order of 0.1C per decade. It will probably occur in bursts — the climate record shows clear signs of punctuated equilibrium, a Hurst-Kolmogorov process — most likely associated with strong El Ninos (if we get back to where strong El Ninos occur — the last couple have fizzled out altogether, hence the lack of warming). In the meantime, we will without much additional effort beyond existing research and the obvious profit incentives drop the cost of solar power by a factor of four, and it will become at least competitive with the cheapest ways of generating electrical power. We will also have at least one major breakthrough in energy storage technology. The two together will cause solar to become more profitable than coal independent of subsidy, for much but not all of the world. Without anybody being inconvenienced or “doing” anything beyond pursuing the most profitable course, global consumption of carbon will then drop like a rock no matter what we do in the meantime.
Beyond twenty years I don’t think anybody has a clue as to what the temperature will do. I don’t even have a lot of confidence in my own prediction. It wouldn’t surprise me if it got cooler, especially if the Sun enters a true Maunder-style minimum. Nor would it surprise me if it got warmer than my modest prediction. But either way, I think roughly 500 ppm is likely to be the peak level of CO_2 before it comes down, and it may well fail to make it to 500 ppm, and even the catastrophists would have a hard time making a catastrophe out of that given 0.3 C of warming in association with the bump from 300 to 400.
We could make it more likely to cut off before 500 ppm — invest massively in nuclear power. Nuclear power is actually relatively cheap, so this is a cost-benefit win, if we regulate them carefully for safety and avoid nuclear proliferation (both risks, but less catastrophic than the inflated predictions of the catastrophists). But I don’t think we will, and in the end I don’t think it will matter.
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will be hard to warm in a cold pdo which is not a nino friendly. In addition warm AMO is about to run its course ( within 10 yrs) would suggest reading Dr Bill Gray ideas on the thermohaline circulation and where we are about to go. He correctly forecasted the flip in the PDO and by 2020, the AMO should turn too. I am forecasting cooling and have been since 06 , back to levels as measured by satellites, of the 70s by 2030. I am in complete agreement with the idea that the more you study the majesty of the planet, you realize how little we are, or have to do with it
What we *really* know, empirically, is that we have (1) a tad over 30 years of spotty data, much from less than reliable sources, (2) a handful of computer models that everyone knows have oversimplifications built in at almost every line of code, and (3) indications in the fossil records of rocks, ice, and plants that the climate is variable and has been warmer at some times, and cooler at other times.
What we *really* know, theoretically, is that (1) there are scores of variables that could affect the climate, (2) many of them have interactions with each other that have not yet been characterized, and (3) some are known to be non-linear and even ambivalent depending on their interactions with other variables.
What we *really* know, from experience, is that extrapolations are for fools. Just because variable A went up (or down) X points yesterday does not mean it will do so again today.
Ask Wall Street.
Joe – yes; all this farrago regarding CAGW simply demonstrates the extraordinary hubris of the warmes, to think that we really affect this globe that much.
For those true believers who always reinforce their arguments by resorting to an ‘appeal to authority’, you should be aware that the full quotation, from Francis Bacon circa 1600, is
“Truth is the Daughter of Time, not of Authority”
Dr Brown needs to provide a link to where at Duke I should send money for enlightening me repeatedly. Just the spin off reads of his references teach me things.
The word “chaotic” is used once and once is enough to support the rest of the article.
Dr Brown writes:
quote
I suspect that nothing we can do will have any meaningful effect on the process, just as I don’t think that we have had any profound warming influence on the Earth so far.
unquote
With all due respect to your greater knowledge, I suspect we could, can and may be so doing. We are spreading enough light oil onto the ocean surface each year to cover it completely approximately every fortnight. I have seen oil smooths snaking out to the horizon from Tenerife, seen a smooth covering tens of thousands of square miles off Portugal, seen the Med covered from end to end. Oil smooths warm the sea surface by reducing albedo, lowering emissivity, reducing mechanical mixing, starving plankton to lower DMS production, reduce aerosol production by breaking waves, lower turbulence and thereby reduce stratocumulus formation and reduce evaporation.
Google Tom Wigley and ‘why the blip?’. Google Benjamin Franklin and Clapham pond.
The north Siberian coast has enough light oil coming down its rivers to equal an Exxon Valdez every five weeks — add in the North Slope and I’ll bet that means the Arctic seas are covered completely. Perhaps that’s why their warming is anomalously high.
Anyway… All you need to do carry on polluting the ocean surface. That’ll do.
JF
And that folks is what a real scientist sounds like.
Hansen, Mann et al you might want to take note!
@Joe Kirklin, cooling? Isn’t that always because of global warming? 😉
Dr Brown:
“My own prediction for the climate is this. We will probably continue to experience mild warming for another ten to twenty years-”
For the last fifteen years there has been no warming- absolutely none. So why do you say “continue”?
Climatologists may not know “why the Pleistocene started” but geophysicists most certainly do. The short answer is plate tectonics, which deployed North and South American landmasses some 2.6-million years ago to wall off Eastern from Western hemispheres, thereby disrupting global atmospheric/ocean circulation patterns.
Since the Cretaceous/Tertiary (K/T) Boundary some 65-milion years ago, Planet Earth has experience five major geological eras lasting 12 – 16+ million years apiece. On this basis, our current Pleistocene Era should persist another 12 – 14 million years, until North and South American continents once more drift apart. During this time, the Earth’s micro-minuscule atmospheric film –say 4 miles on a planetary radius of 4,000 miles– will continue subject to Milankovich cycles, oceanic oscillations, total solar irradiation (TSI), volcanism and so forth, but “climate” is inevitably due for periodic “cold shock” fluctuations for another 14-million years or so.
In its self-induced astro-geological ignorance, “climate science” for all its high-tech gobbley-gook is akin to Blondlot’s N-rays, J.B. Rhine, Immanuel Velikovsky, Trofim Lysenko, and others of that ilk. Entering a 70-year “dead sun” Grand Minimum similar to that of 1645 – 1715, the Green Gang of AGW Catastrophists
is purposefully, willfully, putting all humanity at risk.
Just finished reading John Kehr’s “the inconvenient skeptic”. I like it because:
1) It takes the very long view, that is, not decades but centuries:
2) It deals with the earth as a chaotic system;
3) It deals with the insolation reaching the earth esp. the Northern Hemisphere and
4) It posits that there is an energy gap of about 14 W/m2 and there has been for about 3000 yrs;
In other words, looking at the energy received by the earth and where makes a lot more sense to me than any Co2 theory. Trying to fit the Co2 theory to the facts is a fools game. Instead use facts to formulate a theory.
And there you have it.
Bravo!
I’m printing that out and handing it to some friends.
@Julian Flood
Ever hear of bacteria? Oil is biodegradable.
That’s why the Gulf of Mexico didn’t end up the catastrophe that some predicted. Yes, a lot of oil goes into the oceans both naturally and from human activities; but a lot of oil is consumed by bacteria as well.
Excellent commentary. I just wish one could persuade the likes of Obama and Cameron to take the time to read such a balanced view of the subject.
And this is what the alarmists never seem to get:
“The fundamental issue is this. We have some thirty three years of halfway decent climate data — perhaps twice that if you are very generous — which is the blink of an eye in the chaotic climate system that is the Earth.” —- RGB@Duke
“There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.” —- Mark Twain
In an October 2011 paper published in the International Journal of Public Opinion Research, researchers from George Mason University analyzed the results of a survey of 489 scientists working in academia, government, and industry. The scientists polled were members of the American Geophysical Union or the American Meteorological Society and listed in the 23rd edition of American Men and Women of Science, a biographical reference work on leading American scientists. Of those surveyed, 97% agreed that that global temperatures have risen over the past century. Moreover, 84% agreed that “human-induced greenhouse warming” is now occurring. Only 5% disagreed with the idea that human activity is a significant cause of global warming.[18][19]
^
from wikipedia is it me or is this something completly different then the Dr is saying about the survey? Perhaps it’s just another case of wikipedia bull we have seen before regarding climate articles.
Just a couple of corrections are needed in this post:
1. It’s pretty well established that the closing of the Central American isthmus initiated the Pleistocene glaciation cycles by diverting oceanic circulation patterns.
2. The Milankovich theory is quiet well-proven and is quantitatively predictive. Various other influences may affect the timing a bit — such as the lag effect of ice on the continents having to melt away before temperatures increase — but the orbital parameters that control insolation are dominant.
Dr. Brown is a born teacher and I envy his students.
Julian Flood.
What an exagerating alarmist you are. Yes we have all seen oil smooths in the sea from time to time, but I doubt whether anyone would support your stupid statement that you’ve seen oil smooths completely cover the whole of the Mediteranean. I suspect that is part of the warmists scaremongering again. Just look at the sites of major oil spills around the world and see how they have very quickly returned to their natural state within a very short space of time. Even the area of last years BP drilling accident in the Gulf of Mexico, which we know was devaststing to the local fishing industry, has surprised officials at the speed of its recovery to its natural ecology. Yes, the earth is capable of taking in its stride anything which we humans throw at it. It might be major in the warmists eyes, but it is very insignificant as far as mother earth is concerned
Here is a graph, a graphic, of the current, as of 3 Dec, monthly Smoothed Sunspot Numbers and of their 2009 consensus predicted numbers.
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/SolarCycle/sunspot.gif
Julian Flood says:
December 3, 2012 at 11:32 am
Julian, you need to pay less attention to doom-prophesying “authorities” and more to basic science, in this case geology. The volume of oil seeping from natural sources sources is far greater than human linked “catastrophes.” Studies in the Gulf have imaged steady minor seeps over square miles. The Exxon Valdiz in Alaska and more recent events in the Gulf of Mexico are geographically focused – point locations – that magnify the apparent seriousness of the events. In reality, a small fraction of the oil you would pick up walking on a beach in the Gulf, the beaches of Central Africa, the Arctic, or California, or any of a dozen other places is the result of human activity. Just like water, oil seeps to the surface – la Brea in L.A. for instance, or the asphalt “volcanoes” in the channel off southern California. The asphaltum used prehistorically by the Egyptians, the Chinese, the indians of the southern California deserts, and in many other parts of the world was from natural seeps as well. Tanker spills and plumes from failing wells are are dramatic and can be very hard on wild life, but even there you want to look at the fossil count from la Brea before assuming to much about the influence of humanity on the environment.
Pollution is a serious problem, but we really need to know the magnitude of our own outputs, before we can do something useful about them. It is a profound mistake to simply conclude that nature would be benign if only people were tidier. It is simply not true and makes a secular “original sin” assumption that is logically and empirically unsupported.
In pointing out that there is no scientific certainty about several things, you then write what I think is a non-scientific opinion, “there is a risk of a return to open glaciation, the start of the next 90,000 year glacial era — but it is not a particularly high risk …”.
I have not seen any paper about this and don’t really think the risk of another ice age is quantified in any scientific way. It is possible that all that is needed is another Little Ice Age of a sufficient magnitude that we hit a “tipping point” after which the earth gradually slide decade after decade inexorably towards an increasingly cold and glaciated earth. Given the current very quiet sun, perhaps such a little ice age is pending. My non-scientific guess is like yours that we probably have a few hundred more years. But it is an opinion and not based on anything quantifiable.
With all due respect to your greater knowledge, I suspect we could, can and may be so doing. We are spreading enough light oil onto the ocean surface each year to cover it completely approximately every fortnight.
square meters (four hundred trillion square meters). In order to cover with oil at a depth of 1 millimeter one time would require roughly 360 billion metric tons of oil. The complete annual production of oil worldwide is currently around 30 billion barrels of oil, and it takes roughly seven barrels of oil to produce a metric ton. That is, the complete annual production of oil is around 4 billion metric tons. This would make a layer approximately ten microns thick, if you could get it all into the ocean at once.
Let’s look at this closely, shall we? And let’s use arithmetic in the form of a “Fermi Estimate”, not words. The surface area of the ocean is
Of course, we don’t do any such thing. Oil on the ocean is wasted oil, and we want to use it. I would cheerfully estimate that we don’t lose one hundredth of one percent of all the oil mined into the ocean in a year. In that case it would make a layer one nanometer — two or three molecules — thick. Once. Out of a whole year’s oil production, assuming what is in all frankness probably an egregiously high estimate of waste.
On a fortnightly basis divide by 26. We spread a layer one whole molecule thick roughly once ever ten fortnights, call it four months.
This still doesn’t do your assertion full justice. “Oil” is a heterogeneous mixture of hydrocarbons. Some of them are volatile and almost immediately evaporate. Others are dense and sink. All of them are quite tasty to a number of things that live in the ocean. While I am quite certain that there are places where oil slicks both natural and manmade can be seen on the ocean, there is no possible way that those slicks would ever actually cover the ocean because they would be eaten, oxidized, evaporated, and sink faster than they could ever spread. At no time could they cover even a significant fraction of the ocean’s surface area. That, as noted above, is enormous.
So I must regretfully state that unless I have made an egregious error in my arithmetic above — always possible — your statement is an absurd number of orders of magnitude away from being anything like truth. I spend my summers in boats, fishing off of the North Carolina coast outside of its busiest harbor. I have yet to see one oil slick, or even a single extended patch of oil on the surface, even in the harbors. I have also read papers that suggest that the oil dumped into the Gulf in its disaster was eaten at many times the rate anticipated beforehand, so that nature actually cleaned it up at an astounding rate, and that really was a well dumping enormous amounts of oil directly into the ocean (but tiny amounts compared to its surface area for all of that).
I suggest that you change your primary sources away from ones that not only lie to you, but lie to you in a way that insults your intelligence and ability to do arithmetic. I also humbly suggest that if you have posted this misinformation elsewhere, you consider the damage this sort of nonsense does to everybody’s ability to hold a rational conversation on the subject. I would expect the “coverage of the ocean with oil” to be an utterly negligible effect compared to the direct greenhouse effect of the volatiles and natural gas released when oil is pumped plus the greenhouse effect of the burned oil in the form of CO_2. Those positive warming effects might well be partially balanced by particulates that could have either warming or cooling effects and aerosols that are mostly cooling. In other words, there is literally no point even mentioning it, which is why nobody ever does and they are completely ignored in all global climate models.
Try again.
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