
Note: This will be the top post for a day or two, new posts will appear below this one.
Readers may recall my original post, Nature’s ugly decision: ‘Deniers’ enters the scientific literature. followed by Dr. Paul Bain Responds to Critics of Use of “Denier” Term (with thanks to Jo Nova, be sure to bookmark and visit her site) Dr. Robert G. Brown of Duke University, commenting as rgbatduke, made a response that was commented on by several here in that thread. As commenter REP put it in the update: It is eloquent, insightful and worthy of consideration. I would say, it is likely the best response I’ve ever seen on the use of the “denier” term, not to mention the CAGW issue in general. Thus, I’ve elevated it a full post. Please share the link to this post widely. – Anthony
Dr. Robert G. Brown writes:
The tragic thing about the thoughtless use of a stereotype (denier) is that it reveals that you really think of people in terms of its projected meaning. In particular, even in your response you seem to equate the term “skeptic” with “denier of AGW”.
This is silly. On WUWT most of the skeptics do not “deny” AGW, certainly not the scientists or professional weather people (I myself am a physicist) and honestly, most of the non-scientist skeptics have learned better than that. What they challenge is the catastrophic label and the alleged magnitude of the projected warming on a doubling of CO_2. They challenge this on rather solid empirical grounds and with physical arguments and data analysis that is every bit as scientifically valid as that used to support larger estimates, often obtaining numbers that are in better agreement with observation. For this honest doubt and skepticism that the highly complex global climate models are correct you have the temerity to socially stigmatize them in a scientific journal with a catch-all term that implies that they are as morally reprehensible as those that “deny” that the Nazi Holocaust of genocide against the Jews?
For shame.
Seriously, for shame. You should openly apologize for the use of the term, in Nature, and explain why it was wrong. But you won’t, will you… although I will try to explain why you should.
By your use of this term, you directly imply that I am a “denier”, as I am highly skeptical of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (not just “anthropogenic global warming”, which is plausible if not measurable, although there are honest grounds to doubt even this associated with the details of the Carbon Cycle that remain unresolved by model or experiment). Since I am a theoretical physicist, I find this enormously offensive. I might as well label you an idiot for using it, when you’ve never met me, have no idea of my competence or the strength of my arguments for or against any aspect of climate dynamics (because on this list I argue both points of view as the science demands and am just as vigorous in smacking down bullshit physics used to challenge some aspect of CAGW as I am to question the physics or statistical analysis or modelling used to “prove” it). But honestly, you probably aren’t an idiot (are you?) and no useful purpose is served by ad hominem or emotionally loaded human descriptors in a rational discussion of an objective scientific question, is there.
Please understand that by creating a catch-all label like this, you quite literally are moving the entire discussion outside of the realm of science, where evidence and arguments are considered and weighed independent of the humans that advance them, where our desire to see one or another result proven are (or should be) irrelevant, where people weigh the difficulty of the problem being addressed as an important contributor (in a Bayesian sense) to how much we should believe any answer proposed — so far, into the realm where people do not think at all! They simply use a dismissive label such as “denier” and hence avoid any direct confrontation with the issues being challenged.
The issue of difficulty is key. Let me tell you in a few short words why I am a skeptic. First of all, if one examines the complete geological record of global temperature variation on planet Earth (as best as we can reconstruct it) not just over the last 200 years but over the last 25 million years, over the last billion years — one learns that there is absolutely nothing remarkable about today’s temperatures! Seriously. Not one human being on the planet would look at that complete record — or even the complete record of temperatures during the Holocene, or the Pliestocene — and stab down their finger at the present and go “Oh no!”. Quite the contrary. It isn’t the warmest. It isn’t close to the warmest. It isn’t the warmest in the last 2 or 3 thousand years. It isn’t warming the fastest. It isn’t doing anything that can be resolved from the natural statistical variation of the data. Indeed, now that Mann’s utterly fallacious hockey stick reconstruction has been re-reconstructed with the LIA and MWP restored, it isn’t even remarkable in the last thousand years!
Furthermore, examination of this record over the last 5 million years reveals a sobering fact. We are in an ice age, where the Earth spends 80 to 90% of its geological time in the grip of vast ice sheets that cover the polar latitudes well down into what is currently the temperate zone. We are at the (probable) end of the Holocene, the interglacial in which humans emerged all the way from tribal hunter-gatherers to modern civilization. The Earth’s climate is manifestly, empirically bistable, with a warm phase and cold phase, and the cold phase is both more likely and more stable. As a physicist who has extensively studied bistable open systems, this empirical result clearly visible in the data has profound implications. The fact that the LIA was the coldest point in the entire Holocene (which has been systematically cooling from the Holocene Optimum on) is also worrisome. Decades are irrelevant on the scale of these changes. Centuries are barely relevant. We are nowhere near the warmest, but the coldest century in the last 10,000 years ended a mere 300 years ago, and corresponded almost perfectly with the Maunder minimum in solar activity.
There is absolutely no evidence in this historical record of a third stable warm phase that might be associated with a “tipping point” and hence “catastrophe” (in the specific mathematical sense of catastrophe, a first order phase transition to a new stable phase). It has been far warmer in the past without tipping into this phase. If anything, we are geologically approaching the point where the Earth is likely to tip the other way, into the phase that we know is there — the cold phase. A cold phase transition, which the historical record indicates can occur quite rapidly with large secular temperature changes on a decadal time scale, would truly be a catastrophe. Even if “catastrophic” AGW is correct and we do warm another 3 C over the next century, if it stabilized the Earth in warm phase and prevented or delayed the Earth’s transition into cold phase it would be worth it because the cold phase transition would kill billions of people, quite rapidly, as crops failed throughout the temperate breadbasket of the world.
Now let us try to analyze the modern era bearing in mind the evidence of an utterly unremarkable present. To begin with, we need a model that predicts the swings of glaciation and interglacials. Lacking this, we cannot predict the temperature that we should have outside for any given baseline concentration of CO_2, nor can we resolve variations in this baseline due to things other than CO_2 from that due to CO_2. We don’t have any such thing. We don’t have anything close to this. We cannot predict, or explain after the fact, the huge (by comparison with the present) secular variations in temperature observed over the last 20,000 years, let alone the last 5 million or 25 million or billion. We do not understand the forces that set the baseline “thermostat” for the Earth before any modulation due to anthropogenic CO_2, and hence we have no idea if those forces are naturally warming or cooling the Earth as a trend that has to be accounted for before assigning the “anthropogenic” component of any warming.
This is a hard problem. Not settled science, not well understood, not understood. There are theories and models (and as a theorist, I just love to tell stories) but there aren’t any particularly successful theories or models and there is a lot of competition between the stories (none of which agree with or predict the empirical data particularly well, at best agreeing with some gross features but not others). One part of the difficulty is that the Earth is a highly multivariate and chaotic driven/open system with complex nonlinear coupling between all of its many drivers, and with anything but a regular surface. If one tried to actually write “the” partial differential equation for the global climate system, it would be a set of coupled Navier-Stokes equations with unbelievably nasty nonlinear coupling terms — if one can actually include the physics of the water and carbon cycles in the N-S equations at all. It is, quite literally, the most difficult problem in mathematical physics we have ever attempted to solve or understand! Global Climate Models are children’s toys in comparison to the actual underlying complexity, especially when (as noted) the major drivers setting the baseline behavior are not well understood or quantitatively available.
The truth of this is revealed in the lack of skill in the GCMs. They utterly failed to predict the last 13 or 14 years of flat to descending global temperatures, for example, although naturally one can go back and tweak parameters and make them fit it now, after the fact. And every year that passes without significant warming should be rigorously lowering the climate sensitivity and projected AGW, making the probability of the “C” increasinginly remote.
These are all (in my opinion) good reasons to be skeptical of the often egregious claims of CAGW. Another reason is the exact opposite of the reason you used “denier” in your article. The actual scientific question has long since been co-opted by the social and political one. The real reason you used the term is revealed even in your response — we all “should” be doing this and that whether or not there is a real risk of “catastrophe”. In particular, we “should” be using less fossil fuel, working to preserve the environment, and so on.
The problem with this “end justifies the means” argument — where the means involved is the abhorrent use of a pejorative descriptor to devalue the arguers of alternative points of view rather than their arguments at the political and social level — is that it is as close to absolute evil in social and public discourse as it is possible to get. I strongly suggest that you read Feynman’s rather famous “Cargo Cult” talk:
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm
In particular, I quote:
For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a
friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of this work were. “Well,” I said, “there aren’t any.” He said, “Yes, but then we won’t get support for more research of this kind.” I think that’s kind of dishonest. If you’re representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you’re doing–and if they don’t want to support you under those circumstances, then that’s their decision.
One example of the principle is this: If you’ve made up your mind to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look good. We must publish both kinds of results.
I say that’s also important in giving certain types of government
advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether
drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it
would be better in some other state. If you don’t publish such a
result, it seems to me you’re not giving scientific advice. You’re
being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don’t publish it at all. That’s not giving scientific advice.
Time for a bit of soul-searching, Dr. Bain. Have you come even close to living up to the standards laid out by Richard Feynman? Is this sort of honesty apparent anywhere in the global climate debate? Did the “Hockey Team” embrace this sort of honesty in the infamous Climategate emails? Do the IPCC reports ever seem to present the counter arguments, or do they carefully avoid showing pictures of the 20,000 year thermal record, preferring instead Mann’s hockey stick because it increases the alarmism (and hence political impact of the report)? Does the term “denier” have any place in any scientific paper ever published given Feynman’s rather simple criterion for scientific honesty?
And finally, how dare you presume to make choices for me, for my relatives, for my friends, for all of the people of the world, but concealing information from them so that they make a choice to allocate resources the way you think they should be allocated, just like the dishonest astronomer of his example. Yes, the price of honesty might be that people don’t choose to support your work. Tough. It is their money, and their choice!
Sadly, it is all too likely that this is precisely what is at stake in climate research. If there is no threat of catastrophe — and as I said, prior to the hockey stick nobody had the slightest bit of luck convincing anyone that the sky was falling because global climate today is geologically unremarkable in every single way except that we happen to be living in it instead of analyzing it in a geological record — then there is little incentive to fund the enormous amount of work being done on climate science. There is even less incentive to spend trillions of dollars of other people’s money (and some of our own) to ameliorate a “threat” that might well be pure moonshine, quite possibly ignoring an even greater threat of movement in the exact opposite direction to the one the IPCC anticipates.
Why am I a skeptic? Because I recognize the true degree of our ignorance in addressing this supremely difficult problem, while at the same time as a mere citizen I weigh civilization and its benefits against draconian energy austerity on the basis of no actual evidence that global climate is in any way behaving unusually on a geological time scale.
For shame.
William Astley says:
That indicates that (a) significant portion of the 20th century warming has (been) caused by a mechanism that is different than CO2.
Henry says
I can confirm that. It was getting warmer in the previous century – more heat coming from the sun.
However, if you look at the development of maximum temperatures since ca. 1974 (from which date we have reasonable records from a lot of terrestrial weather stations) you will notice lately a fair amount of descent that follows on an exponential or binominal curve downward.
http://www.letterdash.com/henryp/global-cooling-is-here
Note that according to my calculations it is clear that from about 1994-1995 the sun has been losing some of its strength.
Personally I think the climate is on this curve:
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/orssengo3.png
Study this curve carefully and you will see that around 1994 temps went down (negative/decline) as correctly predicted by me here whereas the green line from the IPCC still wants us to believe that it goes the other way (positive/incline).
However, Orssengo saw the top of the warming phase at around 2000, I see it a bit earlier. This suggests (to me) that the Orssengo curve may have to be re-calculated and shifted a bit to the left.
Does anyone here know what happened to Orssengo?
“I ask the following question not in order to debunk the previous comments, but in all sincerity. How does the extreme weather of the past decade fit into this? Floods, hurricanes, melting of polar ice sheets? This needs a good answer because it’s the first challenge that a CAGW supporter is going to throw at you.”
Good point old fossil, weather events we remember, climate we don’t. It is all about averages, a few months ago there were drought warnings and hosepipe bans. Predictably, all the AGW supporters crawled out from under their rocks, telling us that mankind was to blame. Equally predictably, the weather changed and we had the wettest April and so far June on record, but the AVERAGE rainfall is probably not much different to previous years. The temperature at the moment in NE England is 12 Celsius, which is about right for 10:00am on a cloudy, breezy, day in late June. This weather is forgettable, the summer of 1976 and the winter of 2010 were not. That is the problem, weather is very subjective. The AGW crowd have not grasped this concept and in their Emperors New Clothes world, insist on telling us that all extreme weather is caused by climate change. Here in UK I have not seen any more extreme weather when the world was warming in the 90’s. Hope this answers your question.
Dear Dr Brown.
Well done for writing a very good article which rightly refutes AGW (and therefore also the catastrophic variety). However as far as I can see most, or even all, of the points which you have so eloquently presented here have, as far as I understand it – in one form or the other, been presented to AGW scientists before and yet their “Band Wagon” rolls on. –
Now then, what follows on from this are a few words from “The Critic” within me which woke up as soon as I read:
“This is silly. On WUWT most of the skeptics do not “deny” AGW, certainly not the scientists or professional weather people (I myself am a physicist) and honestly, most of the non-scientist skeptics have learned better than that. What they challenge is the catastrophic label —- —- –“
======================
It may be true to say: “— most of the skeptics do not “deny” AGW, certainly not the scientists or professional weather people (I myself am a physicist) and —-“ – But, are you sure you are not pointing to yet another “Climate Theory Consensus” (CTC) here? – “The Theory” says that heat moves around by the way of Electromagnetism or as EMIR radiation and that that is how the various GHGs are (supposed to be) absorbing the various “wave-bands” of IR emissions. – If that was to be the case, smoking would not kill you, lighting the match, or any other fire, probably would.
From your otherwise excellent article above I understand that you are a physicist who do “believe” in the idea that EMIR radiation makes it possible for CO2 to warm the Earth’s surface and atmosphere to some “immeasurable, lost in the noise temperature”. –
Please inform me of the various percentages. How much of the heat-exchange between the surface and the atmosphere happens by conduction/convection and how much happens by radiation?
Yeah, they ain’t deniers. Its just that they don’t want to believe certain things, and no matter what you do or say, they insist on staying unconvinced. Is that a denier? Or is there another good word to describe this particular take on reality?
I prefer to use “skeptics” as a shorthand for “fake skeptics”. Because they aren’t skeptical, they are just against it, and they cheer their own side on, no matter what.
OH Dahlsveen says
Please inform me of the various percentages. How much of the heat-exchange between the surface and the atmosphere happens by conduction/convection and how much happens by radiation?
Henry says
You know that that kind of testing has never been performed – I have been looking for it for a long time, especially how much an increase 0.01% of CO2 would have, which more or less represents the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere since 1956, finally realizing that nobody has got any real test results on that.
Did you see (and get) what I posted here?
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/the-greenhouse-effect-and-the-principle-of-re-radiation-11-Aug-2011
“These are all (in my opinion) good reasons to be skeptical of the often egregious claims of CAGW. “
Use of “CAGW” is good reason to assume the author’s viewpoint is somewhat remiss of objective reasoning, but does give good reason to conclude that the author is hoisted by his own petard.
John Brookes says
and no matter what you do or say, they insist on staying unconvinced
Henry says
if you make a claim
e.g. that more CO2 causes warming,
\You have to prove that to me?
Show me your (own) results that might convince me.
I can show you (from my results) that it is not warming lately
http://www.letterdash.com/henryp/global-cooling-is-here
In fact, warming stopped in 1995. What “warming” we get now was kept in earth’ energy store and is only coming out now. But, eventually, that will run out…
either way, I would not call you a lier or a denier
because I know you are just being misguided and misled.
john brooks sez~
—
brooksie, just go back to beating old gentlemen, like your buddy mann.
mods – one down the hidey hole. TIA
[no it is waiting for Anthony to comment first . . kbmod]
mydogsgotnonose;
Sorry George E Smith, there are engineers like me who can easily show why electromagnetic radiation cannot transfer energy to a warmer body contrary to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
There is a glaring hole in the understanding of most physicists.
>>>>>>>
Well congrats on knowing more about physics than physicists. Do you also know more about math than mathematicians and more about statistics that statisticians? Perhaps due to your superior knowledge of the working of EM radiation, you could answer a couple of questions?
1. Which would be warmer? An earth surface exposed directly to an atmosphere at -20 C or an earth surface exposed directly to outer space at -270 C?
2. If EM radiation flows in only one direction between any two given bodies, why is it that no matter how bright my headlights are, I am unable to “shut off” the headlights of an on coming car?
For the record, I’m neither a phycisist nor an engineer, but I was paying attention to the facts of wave propogation as demonstrated in simple ripple tank experiments in grade 11.
@J Bowers
What do you think those advocating “action” on AGW base that on? That AGW has inconvenient consequences (IAGW)? That AGW has benign or beneficial consequences (BAGW)? No, the whole reason for “action” is the claim that AGW is dangerous i.e. has catastrophic consequences, thus CAGW.
John Brookes says:
June 24, 2012 at 2:25 am
Yeah, they ain’t deniers. Its just that they don’t want to believe certain things, and no matter what you do or say, they insist on staying unconvinced. Is that a denier? Or is there another good word to describe this particular take on reality?
If you’re complaining that people won’t buy into what you’re saying just on the strength of your word, then you need to take a more critical look at your style of argument.
I don’t know why they don’t just go the whole hog and call us Heretics!
If the GHE (Greenhouse Effect) didn’t exist then why would Engineers have to account for differences in downward long-wave radiation on cooling rates of cooling ponds and such? (Engineers aren’t known for accommodating imaginary processes that violate laws of thermodynamics.)
http://www.asterism.org/tutorials/tut37%20Radiative%20Cooling.pdf
It’s not that the GHE heats a cooler object; it’s that an object cooling radiantly cools in relation to the net radiation loss, which is its radiation minus the downward LW radiation.
What is usually left out of the AGW advocates dialogue is that when it comes to GHE clouds are KING and RH (relative humidity) is QUEEN.
The change in downward LW radiation from RH and cloudiness can easily vary by 200 W/m2 compared to the relatively minuscule 3.7 W/m2 purported GHE increase from doubling CO2 concentration. Even small changes in cloud cover or RH would easily overwhelm any alleged effect of CO2.
Another resource: (LW radiation is discussed about half way down the page.)
http://www.fao.org/docrep/X0490E/x0490e07.htm#air%20humidity
John Brookes says:
June 24, 2012 at 2:25 am
“Yeah, they ain’t deniers. Its just that they don’t want to believe certain things, and no matter what you do or say, they insist on staying unconvinced. Is that a denier?”
Try “Heretics”. That would describe the situation very well.
Regarding one crucial technical point which you mentioned, whether we have a model that predicts the swings of glaciation and interglacials, have you considered the theory advanced by Peter Huybers and Carl Wunsch, who argued that the 41,000-year obliquity cycle has been dominant over the past 2-3 million years, but that during the past million years the Earth has entered a mode of climate behavior where only the second or third cycle triggers an ice age? Thus that the last 4 interglacials were approximately 130K, 250K, 330K and 410K years before the present, and that we are now 7000 years past the peak of the current interglacial?
Sure, sure, sure. I’m familiar with the general argument of three interacting cycles (orbital, obliquity, precession) reinforced by albedo, CO_2, solar state, the state of continental drift, the openness or closedness of panama, the state of the thermohaline circulation, and the kitchen sink (where one can find clear signals or highly plausible arguments that some of these things are important, so they all belong in the most general recipe).
The problem is prediction. If we look at the data we can indeed find temporal correspondences, but we don’t know why everything shifts around so that different periods become dominant and most important, we cannot really predict things. Even if we had a nice, sinusoidal prediction that says “the next ice age should start here” we would discover that “here” is a window some 2000 years long, where the actual time it starts depends on something else — the occurrence of a prolonged Mander Minimum, a volcano, a small asteroid impact, a malevolent butterfly beating its wings in just the wrong way.
See the Younger Dryas thread. There we were, happily warming, obliquity set so all systems were go, CO_2 either leading the way or lagging the way depending on who you talk to and what they are trying to extract from the data to prove what point and boom. We plunge back down into the ice age for another 1000 years, with enormous consequences. Also see the many temperature bobbles during the ice ages.
I don’t dislike attempts to understand this, nor do I disagree that they (and others) may well have the most important factors identified. The problem is that there are many factors in a chaotic system where detail matters, where prior state and the state of even fairly small forcings can be amplified to dominate the time evolution details. I don’t need a model to guess that the Holocene is living on borrowed time — I can just look at the historical record and use the time tested “this cycle is probably going to be more or less like the last one” which works to predict almost all of the cycles — easily 80-90% accuracy. Of course where it fails is to predict when and why we shift from 26K to 41K to every other 41K or whatever, and it fails there because one has to completely understand the complex system to predict when one shifts from one Poincare attractor to another. If one can predict it at all — in a chaotic system such shifts might as well be random in that they depend on tiny butterfly wing details that get amplified over time.
The other thing that I dislike is that even this sort of theory doesn’t give you anything like a predictive model for the temperature outside today, next week, ten years from now, 100 years from now, 1000 years from now. Or what the temperature outside would be or should be if CO_2 were 280 ppm, 400 ppm, 195 ppm (all other things being equal). How can it? That temperature depends on the phase and state of the decadal oscillations, which depend on the details of the past history which depends on CO_2 levels which depend on feedbacks that I don’t think we understand very well (with evidence to support my doubt, see Willis’ analysis of albedo feedback) which may depend on solar state in nonlinear ways or on other even less-well understood things like the microstate of the oceanic conveyor belt.
In the end I simply doubt that we understand the climate system all that well. We have plausible theoretical explanations for this part, or for that part, but we do not have a very good detailed picture of how they interact or a very good predictive model for how the non-Markovian, chaotic system will evolve in time.
Since I absolutely believe in the Greenhouse Effect, understand how it works (better than a lot of people who draw absurd pictures to schematize it) and critically comment on theories that attempt to argue that it doesn’t exist or is flat with regard to CO_2 concentration, I am a “warmist”. Since I doubt very much that we understand either the carbon cycle that sets the baseline CO_2 level for any given level of anthropogenic production or the magnitude or signs of the primary climate feedbacks and am very doubtful that we will see anything at all like 3x the CO_2 only temperature forcing I am a “denier”.
I’m actually pretty comfortable with that. Both extremes sound a bit religious. I have an open mind, all the way to the possibility that CAGW could be correct. But its proponents have a ways to go to convince me of that. Not as far as the there-is-no-GHE proponents — not while one can see it in TOA IR spectrographs — but about as far as the there-is-no-AGW proponents (which has a few pathways where it is plausible even with a GHE.
Just imagine climate science in an environment without name calling, a “we must save the Earth” mentality, trillion dollar pricetags (either way), and a certain amount of tolerant civility for alternative points of view. To bad it exists only in an alternate Universe…
rgb
Hi davidmhoffer: the assumption made by physicists when they use the Schwarzchild two-stream approximation [consider EM energy flux as two separate components] is wrong because there is only net energy transfer through the operation of a state of matter intermediate between the quantised EM world and molecular kinetic energy.
This is not new. However, it has been forgotten by those like Houghton who imagine you can have two distinct energy flows. It’s compounded by Meteorologists who imagine you have ‘back radiation’ because the IR pyrometers are calibrated in W/m^2.
A single instrument measures an artefactual temperature radiation field because radiation from the other direction is blocked off. This is explicitly explained by the manufacturer’s literature which states [end of page] that to measure net radiative flux, you need two instruments back to back; http://www.kippzonen.com/?product/16132/CGR+3.aspx
Imagine you have these in zero temperature gradient, zero net signal. Take one away and you measure the temperature field from one direction: it’s not real. Go to the 2009 Energy Budget: http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/Trenberth/trenberth.papers/TFK_bams09.pdf
The ‘back radiation’ data are artificial, biased towards the internal black body reference with unit emissivity. These data are assumed to supplement the net UP IR flux from the Earth’s surface as if it were a black body in a vacuum. This is phantasy physics as any engineer who has measured coupled conduction, convection and radiation will confirm. In reality to get IR to dominate, at 0.9 emissivity you need >100 °C.
The reason for the fallacious physics is that at TOA it’s assumed emissivity DOWN =1. When I talk to modellers about this they get very shifty and have invented a trick based on a fundamental mistake, to fail to understand Kirchhoff’s law of Radiation only applies at thermal equilibrium, not the case at TOA where convection switches to radiation. In reality, DOWN emissivity tends to zero [the IR physics is wrong as well].
The net result is that the IPCC climate models exaggerate energy IN by 100*[(333-238.5)/238.5] = 40% and IR absorbed by the atmosphere by 100*[(333-238.5 +23)/23] = 510%. This converts the heat transfer from primarily convective to primarily radiative and creates the imaginary positive feedback. The other error is that IR thermalisation is indirect not direct, as proved experimentally by Nahle’s recent Mylar balloon experiment: http://www.slayingtheskydragon.com/images/PDFs/BERTHOLD-KLEIN.pdf
Now your trick questions.
1. The vacuum will be warmer because it is the -18° C in equilibrium with space.
2. The headlight question appears to show your lack of understanding of physics: I do not claim that radiative equilibrium does not involve energy flow in both ways, only that when that radiation impacts matter at a higher temperature than the source, it cannot be converted to kinetic energy.
Consider two identical headlamps facing each other, light focused on the filament of the other. According to climate science, it adds to the energy emitted by the other filament effectively increasing the S-B constant without limit.. In thermodynamics this is a Perpetual Motion Machine; for the Trenberth cartoon, of the ‘2nd Kind’; it cannot exist. If one filament was slightly lower in temperature, it would be heated though, but at a rate set by the difference of the two fluxes.
When I did my PhD in applied physics at Imperial College, I was top of year and taught by Nobel prize winners when they did physics not propaganda. Oxymoronic climate science has made 5 fundamental mistakes, three of which are so elementary no professional physicist should have made them. As for the other two, the aerosol optical physics was a mistake by Sagan and the IR physics was a failure to read the literature.
In the late 1940s, Hottell at MIT showed emissivity/absorptivity of CO2 in dry air levelled off at ~200 ppmv in an infinitely long physical optical path, confirmed by Leveck in the 1970s and used in furnace design. The phenomenon is called IR self-absorption. There can be no CO2-AGW. Sorry mate, but that’s science for you.
What is usually left out of the AGW advocates dialogue is that when it comes to GHE clouds are KING and RH (relative humidity) is QUEEN.
Not exactly. Actually, they agree. It’s just that they interpret the net effect of clouds and RH to be a substantial additional forcing of the GHE due to CO_2. As in 2-3x. This is the high “climate sensitivity” of the GCMs, and is somewhat debatable.
rgb
John West; there is a GHE, about 9 K. [Hansen’s claim of 33 K, echoing Fourier includes ~24 K lapse rate warming].
However, the increase of temperature at the Earth’s surface over that set by lapse rate warming is because of the increased IR optical depth of the atmosphere from IR optical scattering, an extra impedance to IR energy flow, not a warming effect from a heat source.
****
Greg House says:
June 23, 2012 at 4:09 pm
Robert Brown says:
June 23, 2012 at 3:13 pm
You mean you need more of a proof than the TOA IR spectrographs that show the CO_2 hole? Or do you really think that the AGW conspiracy stretches back so many years that all of the proxy and instrumental records of a general warming post LIA are part of it?
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I mean a scientific physical experiment proving CO2 warming, more exactly, proving that 200-300 ppm CO2 in the air (1 molecule from 3300-5000 molecules) cause (according to the AGW concept) 7 degrees rise in temperature. Your hole neither proves such warming nor any warming at all and of course it is not the experiment in question.
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Well, the hole does prove warming. Obviously you lack understanding of what the spectrographs are showing. I’ll try to explain in the simplest terms.
The wattage of IR out must, on average, equal the wattage of solar in (minus solar that’s reflected out). Visualize that the area under the IR graph represents the total escaping wattage, which from above is ~same as solar in. So varying the “holes” caused by changing water vapor & CO2 aren’t going to change the total area under the curve, but will vary the shape to keep the area underneath the same. If you eliminate the CO2 hole (which increases the area underneath that part of the curve), the other parts of the curves have to decrease the maintain the same area underneath. That means the remainder of the curve (other than under the previous CO2 hole) must lower — including the surface temp-dependent IR escaping. The surface cools.
I was going to write more, but figured it was a waste of time. Still, what I wrote might help a couple others if they’re hazy about this. The IR-escaping spectrograph speaks a thousand words, but only to those who understand the basics.
Any reply from Dr Paul Bain?
There are times when I could use another 33C of increased average air temperature…to heat water or keep my house cozy and comfortable. Apparently the atmosphere does this effortlessly with small, diffuse, cold, rarefied concentrations of “GHGs”. Great. Tell me how use this heat engine to double this ambient 33C in my house. I’m not greedy. Just give me 20%, I’ll gladly enhance the GHE in my house for an additional 6.6C warming. I’ll reverse it to get 6.6C of cooling. This is going to be great. Please don’t make us wait–this would be life-saving technology in certain parts of the world.
Technically, the IPCC climate models do not” predict.” They “project.” The two words reference different concepts.
OT but Wow looks like Lovelock is now getting angry with the greenies… soon to be a baptized AGW denier we hope… currently he has become a lukewarmer Lucia style me thinks
http://www.beaufortobserver.net/publicationreturnframe.lasso?-token.address=http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/22/green-drivel
And those ‘projections’ are apparently whatever the carbon traders, the renewables’ people and their bent political delegates are willing to pay for.