Why mitigating CO2 emissions is cost-ineffective

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

A couple of weeks ago I appeared before the California State Assembly and told legislators that the cost of the State’s cap-and-trade legislation, which comes into full effect in August this year, will be $450 billion over a decade.

This was a deliberate underestimate. I bent over backward to see whether the Californian proposal could ever make any economic sense. The results, when I ran them through my simple model, confirmed what many have long suspected but few have calculated until now: that attempting to mitigate our sins of emission is one of the most cost-ineffective wastes of taxpayers’ money ever devised.

I had multiplied the $182-billion annual cost of California’s scheme and associated mitigation measures not by 10 but by 2.5 – a quarter of the true gross cost over a decade. The reason for effectively dividing the stated costs of California’s mitigation policies by four is that some had criticized the paper from which I obtained the $182 billion annual cost – Varshney & Tootelian, 2012 – for overstating the costs.

I should really have applied a minimum intertemporal discount rate of at least 5%, which would bring the cost down to $410 billion. In the updated figures I present in this posting, I have correctly applied that discount rate.

My model is simple and excludes costs and benefits external to CO2 mitigation: however, unlike other methods reported in the literature, it does count as a benefit of mitigation the cost of the climate-related damage caused by the warming that would occur if we did not act at once on CO2.

On the benefit side of the account, too, I have bent over backwards to try to be generous to those proposing mitigation measures. I have taken the generally exaggerated estimates of the welfare loss from climate inaction that are in the Stern report on the economics of climate change.

Briefly, Stern says that if the manmade warming of the 20th century is the 3 Celsius degrees (or 6 F°) that is the IPCC’s central projection the cost of the climate-related damage will be 0-3% of 21st-century GDP (actually, he says, “now and forever”, but that is not economic analysis: it is political rodomontade: as Margaret Thatcher might have said, “Don’t be silly, dear!”).

So the mean cost of the welfare loss estimated by Stern on the basis of 3 C° total manmade 21st-century warming is the average of 0 and 3%, i.e. 1.5%, of 21st-century GDP. This too should be discounted at 5% over the ten-year life of the scheme, giving a benefit of just 1.27% of GDP over the period.

Now, given the errors, exaggerations, and failures of prediction in the IPCC’s documents, I do not for a moment think we are going to see anything like as much as 3 C° of manmade warming by 2100. Even the IPCC expects only half of that, or 1.5 C°, to occur by 2100 as a result of the CO2 that we emit in this century. Yet it is only that 1.5 C° that CO2 mitigation measures such as those in California can possibly affect to any discernible extent.

That 1.5 C° is the maximum 21st-century warming that we could have prevented even if we had shut down all CO2 emissions in the year 2000. The remaining 1.5 C° – about half of it from non-CO2 greenhouse gases and half from warming already in the pipeline because of our past emissions – will happen regardless of measures such as those which California is trying to take.

On that basis, one should really halve the benefit that arises from preventing Stern’s mean 1.27%-of-GDP inaction cost. But let us – again generously – stick with a benefit equivalent to 1.27% of GDP if we prevent all CO2-driven warming in the 21st century.

Should the model take account of the possibility that California’s cap-and-trade scheme will create opportunities for job growth? I think not. The Friedman Multiple applies: every job artificially created via taxation destroys two jobs among the taxpaying classes: and, according to a recent Scottish report, each “green job” provided at taxpayers’ expense destroys getting on for five real jobs elsewhere.

Why has Intel said it will never again build another plant in California? Why has production of oil from the Monterey Shale been cut by more than a third since 1990, though proven reserves have increased? Why has there been a near-total moratorium on offshore oil and gas drilling in California for nigh on 40 years?

Why are there 11% jobless in California – a higher proportion than anywhere in the US except Nevada? Why are 50% unemployed in the construction industry that is supposed to benefit from retrofitting buildings with “green” technology?

Why does the State Treasury have a deficit of $6 billion for 2012/13? Why does California have unfunded pension liabilities of $250-200 billion to its senior citizens, and how is it going to pay for them if it goes on as it is?

Why have 50,000 high-net-worth Californians (one-third of the total) fled in just two years, according to the Sacramento Bee? Why did twice as many firms flee California in 2011 as in 2010? Why did Globalstar, Trizetto and eEye flee in just one month last year? Why have Boeing, Toyota, Apple, Facebook, DirecTV, Hilton Hotels, and Thomas Bros. Maps all fled?

It would be wrong to imply that these decisions to flee were a direct result of California’s cap-and-trade law, and I did not do so. The truth is that California – long dominated by entrenched, hard-Left unions and a frankly Marxist legislature – is already notorious as far and away the least business-friendly State in the Union. Cap-and-trade will merely make matters a great deal worse. The wagons are already rolling eastward: soon they will become a stampede.

When I testified in Sacramento, the first point I put to the legislators was that the declared aim of their cap-and-trade scheme is to abate 25% of California’s CO2 emissions over the decade during which it will run. But California’s emissions are only 8% of total US emissions, which in turn are only 17% of global emissions.

So, even if the cap-and-trade scheme is every bit as successful as its promoters would wish, only 0.34% of global emissions – one-third of one per cent – will be abated. There is nothing in the least controversial about this figure, except that no one seems to have pointed it out before. The legislators’ faces were a picture when I told them.

Because so small a fraction of global emissions will be abated by the scheme, simple calculations based on the IPCC’s central assumptions about how much warming will occur this century (which, for the sake of argument, I simply accepted as correct) show that as a result of the full and successful operation of the scheme global CO2 concentration will fall from 410 to – er – 409.93 parts per million by volume by the end of the decade.

Manmade radiative forcing abated would thus be less than 0.001 Watts per square meter, and the warming prevented would be – wait for it, wait for it – a staggering 0.001 Fahrenheit degrees (almost). Yup, less than one-thousandth of a Fahrenheit degree of global warming prevented, at a cost of $410 billion even after discounting to present value.

Is that a bargain for the already over-taxed, over-regulated citizenry of California? We report – you decide.

It is important to understand why measures to attempt to mitigate CO2 emissions are always going to be unaffordable. First, as the California example demonstrates, regional mitigation measures do not noticeably change the global CO2 concentration. Therefore manmade radiative forcing is scarcely altered.

So, in turn, California’s attempt to stop global warming will cause so tiny a cooling – in the present instance, under one-thousandth of a Fahrenheit degree – that no modern instrument or method can detect it. Even if California’s scheme succeeded in cutting as much as 25% of the State’s emissions (which it won’t), the State would have no way of measuring that it had succeeded in causing global cooling.

You might say, as some commentators on my presentation to the California legislators have said, that of course California cannot make much difference by going it alone. Everyone else must follow California’s leadership in closing down as much of their economies as possible. So let us cost that unattractive option.

A little further elementary math will show that the cost of abating 1 Fahrenheit degree of global warming by worldwide measures as spectacularly cost-ineffective as those of California will be close to $640 trillion – rather more than the $454 trillion I had originally estimated, because I had been too generous with the value of the centennial-scale climate-sensitivity parameter.

Its value should not exceed 0.4 Kelvin per Watt per square meter, whereas I had generously adopted the bicentennial-scale parameter at 0.5 Kelvin per Watt per square meter that is implicit in IPCC (2007), p. 13, Table SPM.3.

To put all of this in context, the cost of abating the one-third of a Fahrenheit degree of warming that the IPCC imagines will happen over the decade of the scheme, if everyone worldwide were crazy enough to adopt measures as laughably cost-ineffective as these, would be $25,000 per head of the world population, or one-third of global GDP over a decade. This would be 26 times the cost enduring the welfare loss that might arise from the global warming we fail to prevent if we do nothing.

I deliberately used very cautious assumptions in my presentation to the Assembly in Sacramento, and told the legislators that action would only cost 11 times inaction.

For various reasons, I should expect the cost-ineffectiveness of California’s scheme (which is by no means untypical of such schemes) to be considerably worse than any of the figures I have cited above.

For a start, it is not at all likely that the scheme will succeed in abating 25% of California’s emissions. The EU and New Zealand schemes have failed to make any noticeable dent in emissions, and the EU scheme – for the fourth successive time – is collapsing as the cost of the right to emit a ton of CO2 has fallen below $8. It nosedived yet again earlier this week, and – if things go on as they are – could end up like the now-failed Chicago Carbon Exchange, where the unit price fell below 10 cents.

The EU’s dictators, of course, have the power artificially to cut the quantity of permits available and so boost the price. That is why cap-and-trade is not, repeat not, a market mechanism. It is a tyrant’s wet dream and a businessman’s nightmare, which is why heavily-emitting businesses are getting out of Europe, just as they will soon be joining the flood of businesses already fleeing California.

For these and many other reasons, my model actually tends to overstate the warming that any CO2-reduction policy may abate, and also to understate cost-ineffectiveness. For instance, the IPCC takes CO2’s mean atmospheric residence time as 50-200 years: if so, little mitigation will occur within the 21st century.

Also, my numbers assume that any policy-driven reduction in CO2 concentration occurs at once, when it would be likely to occur stepwise between the starting and ending years, halving the warming otherwise abated by that year and doubling the cost-ineffectiveness.

If the IPCC’s central projections (on which my figures are based) continue to exaggerate the warming that may arise from a given increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration, the cost-effectiveness may be less than shown.

So far, there has been no global warming at all since 2001. In fact, on the latest data from the Hadley Centre and the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, there has been no statistically-significant warming for fully 15 years.

Of course, such periods of temperature stasis are quite frequent in the record. They do not imply there will be no further warming. But they do constrain the rate of warming, which has been and remains far too slow to come close to the IPCC’s unjustifiably alarmist central estimate.

Also, though CO2 emissions are rising in accordance with the IPCC’s A2 emissions scenario, CO2 concentration growth has been near-linear for a decade. Outturn by 2100 may well be considerably below the IPCC’s mean estimate of 700 ppmv.

The climate-sensitivity parameter that I use is centennial-scale: accordingly, over the shorter periods covered by the studies a lesser coefficient (allowing for the fact that longer-term temperature feedbacks may not yet have acted) is appropriate. Consequently, less warming abated would again reduce mitigation cost-effectiveness.

Finally, my calculations ignore all opportunity losses from diverting resources to global-warming mitigation. However, the businesses that are already fleeing the business-hating People’s Republic of California cannot afford to ignore such vital considerations. That is why any individual and any firm in California with any get-up-and-go is getting up and going or has already gotten up and gone.

The figures I have cited here are a deliberately much-simplified but nevertheless highly revealing method of combining the central climatological projections of the IPCC with the standard economic techniques of intertemporal analysis so as to allow even non-specialist policy-makers rapidly to reach a not unreliable first approximation of the costs and benefits of policies to mitigate CO2 emissions.

My method is unique in two respects. First, no one has previously combined the IPCC’s climatology with economic methods so straightforwardly before. Secondly, the method, for the first time, allows even localized policies to be evaluated and compared with competing policies on any scale.

If anyone would like a copy of the paper that explains the method and justifies the equations, please get in touch. (monckton at mail dot com) I’ll be happy to send it to you, and I’ll welcome your comments. I can’t post it up because, after I presented these ideas at the Third Santa Fe Climate Conference in November last year, I have been asked to submit the paper to a learned journal and the final draft is just about to go out to the reviewers.

One of my Noble Friends tells me he has sent the analysis to the chief economic adviser to the UK Treasury, which, however, cannot do much about it because all British environmental policy is now set by the unelected Kommissars of Brussels. His message to the mandarins: “As they say on the London insurance market, ‘When the premium exceeds the cost of the risk, don’t insure.’”

Since the opportunity cost of mitigation is heavy (just watch all those wagons rollin’ away from the extravagantly pointless over-regulation and over-taxation in California), the question arises whether CO2 mitigation should be attempted at all.

Economically speaking, the bottom line is brutally simple and entirely clear. CO2 mitigation policies inexpensive enough to be affordable are likely to prove ineffective, while policies costly enough to be effective will be unaffordable.

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April 5, 2012 8:33 am

Peter Kovachev says:
April 4, 2012 at 7:53 pm
Tim Mantyla says:
April 4, 2012 at 11:04 am
@kim2ooo
Your laughter is silly here, it’s clear you fail to check the facts. It is obvious that you are no scientist either, and have no respect for science.
Tim, kim2000 is a kid. Where level-headed and investigative scientific thinking is concerned, she can wipe the floor with you.The inanity of your commentary here, which understandably made her giggle, makes this clear.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Thank you! 🙂
It is true I have very little respect for Post-normal Science masquerading as Normal Science.
I have little confidence in places / people who claim one equals the other.
FOR Mr.Tim Mantyla
IPCC
“It has been labelled “post-normal” science. Climate change seems to fall in this category. Disputes in post-normal science focus…on the process of science – who gets funded, who evaluates quality, who has the ear of policy…The IPCC is a classic example of a post-normal scientific activity.”
“The danger of a “normal” reading of science is that it assumes science can first find truth, then speak truth to power, and that truth-based policy will then follow…exchanges often reduce to ones about scientific truth rather than about values, perspectives and political preferences. ” -Mike Hulme
http://buythetruth.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/climate-change-and-the-death-of-science/
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/02/13/i-have-a-stake-in-the-outcome/
http://nome.colorado.edu/HARC/Readings/Saloranta.pdf

April 5, 2012 8:48 am

Monckton of Brenchley says:
April 5, 2012 at 6:47 am
One of my favorites of yours….
“”In science, whatever you may personally believe or wish to be so, it is the truth and only the truth that matters.” Lord Monckton
I have it as a header 🙂
Thank you Sir…. for all your efforts

Greg House
April 5, 2012 10:19 am

Monckton of Brenchley says:
April 5, 2012 at 6:47 am
Dr. Nahle, in the light of comments by Willis Eschenbach and others, has accepted that his attempt to demonstrate by measurement that there is no greenhouse effect was not successful,…My concern about allowing these tiresome and scientifically unsupported assertions that there is no greenhouse effect…those who try to maintain that there is no greenhouse effect are merely vexatious…My concern about allowing these tiresome and scientifically unsupported assertions that there is no greenhouse effect…Thirdly, the small and irritating group that maintain, …that there is no greenhouse effect…
===========================================
Let me tell you for the second time: neither have professor Wood and professor Nahle maintained there was no “greenhouse effect” nor was the experiment designed to prove it. Hence your argument “the experiment does not prove there is no greenhouse effect” simply misses the point.
There is an effect indeed, discovered in the 19th century: some gasses can absorb and re-emit IR radiation. However, referring to that effect some people like Arrhenius have developed certain climate theories back in the 19th century. The essential part of the theories was the idea, that the earlier discovered effect (Tyndall) causes SIGNIFICANT warming, to put it in a short and simple way.
Then professor Wood WITHOUT QUESTIONING THE PHYSICAL EFFECT decided to check, whether the warming can be significant or not. The result of his experiment is: no, it can not, the effect is extremely weak.
You are welcome to replicate the experiment properly or provide a scientific explanation of its results. Professor Wood has given one and humble me too: the air takes the energy away from the surface via contact and convection (high school level science) and thus COOLS the surface, that’s why the (relatively) cold surface does not radiate much and therefore the” trapped” IR radiation causes next to nothing. I am looking forward to your scientific arguments on this scientific issue.

Peter
April 5, 2012 11:19 am

Mr. Monckton, you didn’t answer my question: If AB32 is supposed to have had disastrous economic impacts on the state of California, why haven’t we seen any of those impacts in the months since AB32 has taken effect? Are you predicting that the state GDP will drop some 5% this year? (which is, after all, V&T’s projection divided by 4.)

April 5, 2012 12:25 pm

Kim2ooo,
No need for a thank you; t’was a pleasure to deliver an electronic version of the elbow-to-the-nose to an annoying numpty. Who will break the real bad news to that generation, though? Namely that “post-normal science” isn’t science; it’s just fraud with a kool moniker. I think it’ll have to be you. You and your generation will have to mop up somehow after these ageing adolescent losers.

Greg House
April 5, 2012 1:56 pm

Steve Richards says:
April 5, 2012 at 4:01 am
It would be helpful if someone repeats Nasif S. Nahle experiments (which were a comprehensive repeat of Woods)…by injecting CO2 into the boxes to see if there was any measurable difference in temperature rise.
A temperature rise with CO2 injection , with and without the additional protective glass would be illuminating due to the masking of long wave radiation.
==========================================
Actually, there was an equal amount of CO2 in both boxes like in the air outside the boxes. The thing is, that the glass lid traps radiation in a spectrum, that includes the one of CO2, hence adding CO2 to the box with the glass lid would not help trap more radiation.
Referring to the Arrhenius’ hypothesis on “climate sensitivity” of CO2 it was sufficient to demonstrate, that a much stronger effect of glass does not produce any significant temperature rise.

Dan
April 5, 2012 3:17 pm

This application of logic to the situation needs to be condensed into a few talking points and memorized and repeated by republican presidential candidates and anyone running for office.
You can apply the same logic to any emission reduction in the US and use the UN’s own inflated numbers against them.

April 6, 2012 8:52 pm

In response to the “there is no greenhouse effect” crowd, the question whether there is a greenhouse effect, and even the question how big that effect is, is irrelevant to this thread, since I had made it plain in my posting that, for the sake of argument, I was accepting the IPCC’s predictions of future warming, even though I believed them to be exaggerated. Therefore, the frankly boring interventions on this subject were and are merely an attempt to hijack the threat, disrupt the discussion and discourage people from following the original argument. It is high time that the moderators shunted these wrecking crews into a separate thread of their own, out of everyone else’s way.
In response to the person who wonders what the economic effect on California will be, my original posting described just how much of California’s industry has moved out or is about to do so, with evidence, and made the not unreasonable point that AB32 would accelerate that trend.
The take-home message from this thread is:
1. Any individual proposal to mitigate CO2 emissions will only reduce the global concentration by a small fraction.
2. Therefore, there will only be a minuscule reduction in the CO2 radiative forcing.
3. Therefore, the consequent cooling would be so small that it could not be detected by even the most modern instruments or methods.
4. Therefore, even if such an individual proposal had been successful, there would be no method of measuring that it had.
5. The cost of each individual proposal that has so far been implemented has been very large in relation to the immeasurably small cooling that might be expected if the proposal actually succeeded as intended.
6. Scaling up an individual proposal to make it global also scales up the cost.
7. In CO2 mitigation, few if any economies of scale are evident,
8. Therefore, any measure to mitigate CO2, whether local, Statewide, Federal, regional, or even global, will either fail to make any appreciable difference to CO2 concentration, to radiative forcing and to warming, or cost far more than any benefit in climate-related damage abated …
9. … or both.
10. Therefore, no more senseless deployment of taxpayers’ money has yet been devised.

Hutcho
April 7, 2012 2:08 am

1. I am impressed that no serious ‘alarmist climate scientist’ is prepared to debate Monckton publically. I saw him in action at a public lecture during one of his visits to Australia. When I left the auditorium long after his lecture had ceased there was still a long queue of people anxious to speak to him personally. They were not waiting to disagree with him.
2. In his current discussion of the benefits and costs of climate modification as it applies to California (my favourite American State) Monckton again demonstrates his mastery of the subject. The analysis will/would be little different if applied to any state or country in the first or second world. I doubt that anyone would take the trouble to do the math for a third or fourth world country.
3. The problem with alarmist scientists generally appears to me to be that too many of them are narrow specialists and not enough have the broad knowledge of the subject which Monckton clearly demonstrates. He is, amongst other things, a mathematician so that he is readily able to make mincemeat of what passes for benefit/cost analysis in the alarmist climate literature.
4. Speaking as a person trained in economics, benefit/cost analysis and computer model building I must say how disappointed I am with the contributions of (British) Professor Lord Stein and (Australian) Professor Garnault to the debate about the benefits/costs of climate modification. Perhaps they should both learn some elementary climate science and then repeat benefit/cost analysis 101 and then try again.

Greg House
April 7, 2012 1:34 pm

Monckton of Brenchley says:
April 6, 2012 at 8:52 pm
“The take-home message from this thread is:…”
===============================================
I allow me to make a few remarks.
You said: “8. Therefore, any measure to mitigate CO2, whether local, Statewide, Federal, regional, or even global, will either fail to make any appreciable difference to CO2 concentration, to radiative forcing and to warming, or cost far more than any benefit in climate-related damage abated”.
First, although it looks like a logical conclusion because of use of the word “therefore”, but it is not logical. You can not derive ineffectiveness of global large scale measures from apparently low ineffectiveness of an “individual” measure. Example: a physician tells you to take 3 pills a day for 2 weeks to cure a disease and someone says: “no, do not do that, because a single pill will not cure the disease, therefore 3 pills a day for 2 weeks will not help either, just cost more”.
Second, the part “or cost far more than any benefit in climate-related damage abated” has absolutely no logical connection to your points 1-7, you have just build this claim into your conclusion. That does not mean, that the claim is false, but you need to prove it first.
And of course, it makes little sense to talk about mitigation of something, that is physically impossible.

Greg House
April 7, 2012 5:52 pm

Monckton of Brenchley says:
April 6, 2012 at 8:52 pm
In response to the “there is no greenhouse effect” crowd, the question whether there is a greenhouse effect, and even the question how big that effect is, is irrelevant to this thread, since I had made it plain in my posting that, for the sake of argument, I was accepting the IPCC’s predictions of future warming, even though I believed them to be exaggerated.
============================================
It is true, that you believe them to be exaggerated, no problem with that, you said above: “Now, given the errors, exaggerations, and failures of prediction in the IPCC’s documents, I do not for a moment think we are going to see anything like as much as 3 C° of manmade warming by 2100. Even the IPCC expects only half of that, or 1.5 C°, to occur by 2100 as a result of the CO2 that we emit in this century.”
But then you expressed your own estimation or the one of someone else’s that you believe to be correct: “Yet it is only that 1.5 C° that CO2 mitigation measures such as those in California can possibly affect to any discernible extent. That 1.5 C° is the maximum 21st-century warming that we could have prevented even if we had shut down all CO2 emissions in the year 2000. The remaining 1.5 C° – about half of it from non-CO2 greenhouse gases and half from warming already in the pipeline because of our past emissions – …”
So you do believe the CO2 causes SIGNIFICANT warming and you expressed it on this thread above (which BTW makes it quite legitimate to be challenged on this thread, too). It is understandable, that you possibly did not know anything about the professor Wood’s experiment until 2 days ago, a lot of people do not know about it either, but it has been changed now. If you look at the reality, and this is what the professor Wood’s experiment demonstrates, neither 1.5 C° nor 0.00015 C° CO2 warming is possible. Of course, you can question my “0.00015 C°”, so I’d better tell you now: this is a purely rhetorical figure to express the idea of “next to nothing”. Anyway, you are welcome to present your own or someone else’s calculations, but please not statistical ones, no, I would accept only physics. It can go like that: the boxes were very hot and produced much much more IR than our rather cold surface, the glass lid blocks very very much IR, maybe 1000-1000 000 times as much as CO2 does, and all that did not produce even a 1C° warming.
This an alibi for CO2, isn’t it?

April 7, 2012 6:18 pm

Greg House says:
“…you are welcome to present your own or someone else’s calculations, but please not statistical ones, no, I would accept only physics.”
Then you do not accept any of Michael Mann’s papers, which rely on statistics. Unless, of course, you believe that Mann’s cherry-picked treemometers are “physics”.
Finally, you scream “SIGNIFICANT” without defining the term. Per the null hypothesis, ‘significant’ should mean exceeding past Holocene parameters. Anything less is indistinguishable from natural variability.

Greg House
April 7, 2012 6:48 pm

Smokey says:
April 7, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Then you do not accept any of Michael Mann’s papers, which rely on statistics.
=================================================
I do not quite understand, what Michael Mann’s statistics has to do with the question, whether it is PHYSICALLY possible, that the capability of certain gasses to absorb and re-emit some IR can significantly contribute to warming. Significant in sense of “worth talking about”. 0.00000001 degree is certainly not worth talking about, is it?
And I am not screaming, when I am writing PHYSICALLY, it is merely a way to emphasise an important point.

April 7, 2012 9:20 pm

To the “no-greenhouse-effect” troll, I reply that my calculations are based on the IPCC’s implicit central estimate that the warming by 2100 as a result of the CO2 we emit this century will be 1.5 K. I did not warrant that the IPCC’s prediction was accurate: but I was prepared to base my calculations upon it precisely because doing so removes any argument that I have underestimated the amount of warming that may occur. It also removes any legitimacy from attempts by the “no-greenhouse-effect” trolls to derail this thread by arguing that there is no greenhouse effect. My calculations are based on the IPCC’s assumptions, which include the assumption that there is a greenhouse effect and that, accordingly, some warming will result as we add CO2 to the atmosphere. This particular posting, therefore, was not and is not an appropriate place to maunder on about whether or not there is a greenhouse effect. Even if one assumes that there is a greenhouse effect, it is clear from my calculations that it is many times more expensive to attempt CO2 mitigation than to pay the cost of any warming that may arise. If there be no greenhouse effect, then my principal conclusion is true a fortiori.

Greg House
April 7, 2012 11:19 pm

Monckton of Brenchley says:
April 7, 2012 at 9:20 pm
To the “no-greenhouse-effect” troll, I reply… “no-greenhouse-effect” trolls to derail this thread by arguing that there is no greenhouse effect…maunder on about whether or not there is a greenhouse effect…
=========================================
Let me please say it for the third time on this thread, and this time hopefully to your ultimate satisfaction, that there is indeed an effect, discovered in the 19th century. Yes, CO2 and some other gasses are indeed capable of absorbing and re-emitting some IR radiation. This effect was later called “greenhouse effect” by people, who did not bother to check, whether this effect can cause a significant warming.
I do not really care about your calling me a “troll” and distorting my argumentation. I do understand, that it might be painful to learn about the Wood’s experiment and the physical impossibility of any significant warming by “greenhouse gasses”. Maybe you need some time to adjust to this new reality and I do hope, that sooner or later you will incorporate this new knowledge in your brilliant presentations. At least I hope that you might stop telling people things like “yes, there is worming and yes, we are partly to blame”, because it is a scientifically and even politically and strategically wrong, even if you add “but this is not that bad”.

Brian H
April 8, 2012 6:38 am

It is effective to ‘accept for the sake of argument’, but dangerous to persist with it too long. Having first demonstrated the inconsistency and illogic of the opponents’ position, it is then important to turn urgently to breaking down the false assumptions that one temporarily ‘granted’.
In this case, discrediting utterly the proposal to mitigate CO2 forcing by global fiat is crucial, and indeed paramount. But it is not the only issue; getting science off the track of pandering to paymasters is a close second in importance. Some would say that “getting the (climate) science right” is actually more critical than both, but in the real world there will/would be no freedom or opportunity to do so unless the first two (political) issues are resolved. They’re intertwined, in any case, as getting the ‘climate science’ to be at the very least honest about its limitations is necessary to discrediting mitigation and sealing the financial artery presently open in global science funding, pre-empted and abused by ‘climatology’.

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