By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
A couple of weeks ago I appeared before the California State Assembly and told legislators that the cost of the State’s cap-and-trade legislation, which comes into full effect in August this year, will be $450 billion over a decade.
This was a deliberate underestimate. I bent over backward to see whether the Californian proposal could ever make any economic sense. The results, when I ran them through my simple model, confirmed what many have long suspected but few have calculated until now: that attempting to mitigate our sins of emission is one of the most cost-ineffective wastes of taxpayers’ money ever devised.
I had multiplied the $182-billion annual cost of California’s scheme and associated mitigation measures not by 10 but by 2.5 – a quarter of the true gross cost over a decade. The reason for effectively dividing the stated costs of California’s mitigation policies by four is that some had criticized the paper from which I obtained the $182 billion annual cost – Varshney & Tootelian, 2012 – for overstating the costs.
I should really have applied a minimum intertemporal discount rate of at least 5%, which would bring the cost down to $410 billion. In the updated figures I present in this posting, I have correctly applied that discount rate.
My model is simple and excludes costs and benefits external to CO2 mitigation: however, unlike other methods reported in the literature, it does count as a benefit of mitigation the cost of the climate-related damage caused by the warming that would occur if we did not act at once on CO2.
On the benefit side of the account, too, I have bent over backwards to try to be generous to those proposing mitigation measures. I have taken the generally exaggerated estimates of the welfare loss from climate inaction that are in the Stern report on the economics of climate change.
Briefly, Stern says that if the manmade warming of the 20th century is the 3 Celsius degrees (or 6 F°) that is the IPCC’s central projection the cost of the climate-related damage will be 0-3% of 21st-century GDP (actually, he says, “now and forever”, but that is not economic analysis: it is political rodomontade: as Margaret Thatcher might have said, “Don’t be silly, dear!”).
So the mean cost of the welfare loss estimated by Stern on the basis of 3 C° total manmade 21st-century warming is the average of 0 and 3%, i.e. 1.5%, of 21st-century GDP. This too should be discounted at 5% over the ten-year life of the scheme, giving a benefit of just 1.27% of GDP over the period.
Now, given the errors, exaggerations, and failures of prediction in the IPCC’s documents, I do not for a moment think we are going to see anything like as much as 3 C° of manmade warming by 2100. Even the IPCC expects only half of that, or 1.5 C°, to occur by 2100 as a result of the CO2 that we emit in this century. Yet it is only that 1.5 C° that CO2 mitigation measures such as those in California can possibly affect to any discernible extent.
That 1.5 C° is the maximum 21st-century warming that we could have prevented even if we had shut down all CO2 emissions in the year 2000. The remaining 1.5 C° – about half of it from non-CO2 greenhouse gases and half from warming already in the pipeline because of our past emissions – will happen regardless of measures such as those which California is trying to take.
On that basis, one should really halve the benefit that arises from preventing Stern’s mean 1.27%-of-GDP inaction cost. But let us – again generously – stick with a benefit equivalent to 1.27% of GDP if we prevent all CO2-driven warming in the 21st century.
Should the model take account of the possibility that California’s cap-and-trade scheme will create opportunities for job growth? I think not. The Friedman Multiple applies: every job artificially created via taxation destroys two jobs among the taxpaying classes: and, according to a recent Scottish report, each “green job” provided at taxpayers’ expense destroys getting on for five real jobs elsewhere.
Why has Intel said it will never again build another plant in California? Why has production of oil from the Monterey Shale been cut by more than a third since 1990, though proven reserves have increased? Why has there been a near-total moratorium on offshore oil and gas drilling in California for nigh on 40 years?
Why are there 11% jobless in California – a higher proportion than anywhere in the US except Nevada? Why are 50% unemployed in the construction industry that is supposed to benefit from retrofitting buildings with “green” technology?
Why does the State Treasury have a deficit of $6 billion for 2012/13? Why does California have unfunded pension liabilities of $250-200 billion to its senior citizens, and how is it going to pay for them if it goes on as it is?
Why have 50,000 high-net-worth Californians (one-third of the total) fled in just two years, according to the Sacramento Bee? Why did twice as many firms flee California in 2011 as in 2010? Why did Globalstar, Trizetto and eEye flee in just one month last year? Why have Boeing, Toyota, Apple, Facebook, DirecTV, Hilton Hotels, and Thomas Bros. Maps all fled?
It would be wrong to imply that these decisions to flee were a direct result of California’s cap-and-trade law, and I did not do so. The truth is that California – long dominated by entrenched, hard-Left unions and a frankly Marxist legislature – is already notorious as far and away the least business-friendly State in the Union. Cap-and-trade will merely make matters a great deal worse. The wagons are already rolling eastward: soon they will become a stampede.
When I testified in Sacramento, the first point I put to the legislators was that the declared aim of their cap-and-trade scheme is to abate 25% of California’s CO2 emissions over the decade during which it will run. But California’s emissions are only 8% of total US emissions, which in turn are only 17% of global emissions.
So, even if the cap-and-trade scheme is every bit as successful as its promoters would wish, only 0.34% of global emissions – one-third of one per cent – will be abated. There is nothing in the least controversial about this figure, except that no one seems to have pointed it out before. The legislators’ faces were a picture when I told them.
Because so small a fraction of global emissions will be abated by the scheme, simple calculations based on the IPCC’s central assumptions about how much warming will occur this century (which, for the sake of argument, I simply accepted as correct) show that as a result of the full and successful operation of the scheme global CO2 concentration will fall from 410 to – er – 409.93 parts per million by volume by the end of the decade.
Manmade radiative forcing abated would thus be less than 0.001 Watts per square meter, and the warming prevented would be – wait for it, wait for it – a staggering 0.001 Fahrenheit degrees (almost). Yup, less than one-thousandth of a Fahrenheit degree of global warming prevented, at a cost of $410 billion even after discounting to present value.
Is that a bargain for the already over-taxed, over-regulated citizenry of California? We report – you decide.
It is important to understand why measures to attempt to mitigate CO2 emissions are always going to be unaffordable. First, as the California example demonstrates, regional mitigation measures do not noticeably change the global CO2 concentration. Therefore manmade radiative forcing is scarcely altered.
So, in turn, California’s attempt to stop global warming will cause so tiny a cooling – in the present instance, under one-thousandth of a Fahrenheit degree – that no modern instrument or method can detect it. Even if California’s scheme succeeded in cutting as much as 25% of the State’s emissions (which it won’t), the State would have no way of measuring that it had succeeded in causing global cooling.
You might say, as some commentators on my presentation to the California legislators have said, that of course California cannot make much difference by going it alone. Everyone else must follow California’s leadership in closing down as much of their economies as possible. So let us cost that unattractive option.
A little further elementary math will show that the cost of abating 1 Fahrenheit degree of global warming by worldwide measures as spectacularly cost-ineffective as those of California will be close to $640 trillion – rather more than the $454 trillion I had originally estimated, because I had been too generous with the value of the centennial-scale climate-sensitivity parameter.
Its value should not exceed 0.4 Kelvin per Watt per square meter, whereas I had generously adopted the bicentennial-scale parameter at 0.5 Kelvin per Watt per square meter that is implicit in IPCC (2007), p. 13, Table SPM.3.
To put all of this in context, the cost of abating the one-third of a Fahrenheit degree of warming that the IPCC imagines will happen over the decade of the scheme, if everyone worldwide were crazy enough to adopt measures as laughably cost-ineffective as these, would be $25,000 per head of the world population, or one-third of global GDP over a decade. This would be 26 times the cost enduring the welfare loss that might arise from the global warming we fail to prevent if we do nothing.
I deliberately used very cautious assumptions in my presentation to the Assembly in Sacramento, and told the legislators that action would only cost 11 times inaction.
For various reasons, I should expect the cost-ineffectiveness of California’s scheme (which is by no means untypical of such schemes) to be considerably worse than any of the figures I have cited above.
For a start, it is not at all likely that the scheme will succeed in abating 25% of California’s emissions. The EU and New Zealand schemes have failed to make any noticeable dent in emissions, and the EU scheme – for the fourth successive time – is collapsing as the cost of the right to emit a ton of CO2 has fallen below $8. It nosedived yet again earlier this week, and – if things go on as they are – could end up like the now-failed Chicago Carbon Exchange, where the unit price fell below 10 cents.
The EU’s dictators, of course, have the power artificially to cut the quantity of permits available and so boost the price. That is why cap-and-trade is not, repeat not, a market mechanism. It is a tyrant’s wet dream and a businessman’s nightmare, which is why heavily-emitting businesses are getting out of Europe, just as they will soon be joining the flood of businesses already fleeing California.
For these and many other reasons, my model actually tends to overstate the warming that any CO2-reduction policy may abate, and also to understate cost-ineffectiveness. For instance, the IPCC takes CO2’s mean atmospheric residence time as 50-200 years: if so, little mitigation will occur within the 21st century.
Also, my numbers assume that any policy-driven reduction in CO2 concentration occurs at once, when it would be likely to occur stepwise between the starting and ending years, halving the warming otherwise abated by that year and doubling the cost-ineffectiveness.
If the IPCC’s central projections (on which my figures are based) continue to exaggerate the warming that may arise from a given increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration, the cost-effectiveness may be less than shown.
So far, there has been no global warming at all since 2001. In fact, on the latest data from the Hadley Centre and the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, there has been no statistically-significant warming for fully 15 years.
Of course, such periods of temperature stasis are quite frequent in the record. They do not imply there will be no further warming. But they do constrain the rate of warming, which has been and remains far too slow to come close to the IPCC’s unjustifiably alarmist central estimate.
Also, though CO2 emissions are rising in accordance with the IPCC’s A2 emissions scenario, CO2 concentration growth has been near-linear for a decade. Outturn by 2100 may well be considerably below the IPCC’s mean estimate of 700 ppmv.
The climate-sensitivity parameter that I use is centennial-scale: accordingly, over the shorter periods covered by the studies a lesser coefficient (allowing for the fact that longer-term temperature feedbacks may not yet have acted) is appropriate. Consequently, less warming abated would again reduce mitigation cost-effectiveness.
Finally, my calculations ignore all opportunity losses from diverting resources to global-warming mitigation. However, the businesses that are already fleeing the business-hating People’s Republic of California cannot afford to ignore such vital considerations. That is why any individual and any firm in California with any get-up-and-go is getting up and going or has already gotten up and gone.
The figures I have cited here are a deliberately much-simplified but nevertheless highly revealing method of combining the central climatological projections of the IPCC with the standard economic techniques of intertemporal analysis so as to allow even non-specialist policy-makers rapidly to reach a not unreliable first approximation of the costs and benefits of policies to mitigate CO2 emissions.
My method is unique in two respects. First, no one has previously combined the IPCC’s climatology with economic methods so straightforwardly before. Secondly, the method, for the first time, allows even localized policies to be evaluated and compared with competing policies on any scale.
If anyone would like a copy of the paper that explains the method and justifies the equations, please get in touch. (monckton at mail dot com) I’ll be happy to send it to you, and I’ll welcome your comments. I can’t post it up because, after I presented these ideas at the Third Santa Fe Climate Conference in November last year, I have been asked to submit the paper to a learned journal and the final draft is just about to go out to the reviewers.
One of my Noble Friends tells me he has sent the analysis to the chief economic adviser to the UK Treasury, which, however, cannot do much about it because all British environmental policy is now set by the unelected Kommissars of Brussels. His message to the mandarins: “As they say on the London insurance market, ‘When the premium exceeds the cost of the risk, don’t insure.’”
Since the opportunity cost of mitigation is heavy (just watch all those wagons rollin’ away from the extravagantly pointless over-regulation and over-taxation in California), the question arises whether CO2 mitigation should be attempted at all.
Economically speaking, the bottom line is brutally simple and entirely clear. CO2 mitigation policies inexpensive enough to be affordable are likely to prove ineffective, while policies costly enough to be effective will be unaffordable.
eric1skeptic says @ur momisugly April 4, 2012 at 6:28 pm
….It seems as though you are saying that giving the world’s poor a washing machine and wiring it to the grid will bring down the birth rate. On the contrary, we are not going to “give” anyone anything, we are going to trade and then poor will increase their skills and productivity until they are no longer poor. The quickest way for them to become more productive is the use of labor saving devices that typically require energy. But labor saving devices need not be energy intensive. It does not follow that simply using more energy is an effective way to reduce the birth rate.
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Energy is not just the electricity that runs the factories that produce tractors it is also fuel. In subsistence farming children are free labor, my Ex was driving a tractor by age five for example. Agriculture accounts for 70 percent of child labour worldwide Most working children in the world are found on farms and plantations, not in factories, sweatshops or urban areas,” says Jennie Dey DePryck, Chief of FAO’s Rural Institutions and Participation Service.
So to a farm family more children is better. To an urban family a child is an expense and that is why using energy to turn subsistence farms that feed one family into farms that can feed many people so more families move to the cities where Dad can get a job in a factory and the kids can go to school reduces the birth rate.
With all due respect to Lord Monckton, while you are technically correct, trying to reason with the people in charge of California is like trying to teach my cat calculus. It just doesn’t work.
Please understand that over the years I have lost all faith in the people in charge here to grasp anything beyond their foolish fantasies.
A few more brief replies to commenters.
Those who continue to question my use of the Varshney and Tootelian study, where I took their estimated cost value and, in effect, divided it by 4 before using it, must surely accept that there is some net cost to California’s cap-and-trade and other anti-CO2 measures. Varshney and Tootelian, both well-qualified economists who stand by their findings, have done their best to assess the net cost, and they stand by their estimates. If anyone would like to produce a credible alternative cost estimate for all of California’s anti-CO2 measures, I shall be happy to run it through my model.
It is also worth appreciating that the climatological side of the model does not in any way depend upon Varshney and Tootelian’s work. It is a fact that even if the scheme worked only 0.34% of global CO2 emissions will be abated. It is a fact that, on the IPCC’s central estimates, this remission (however little or much it costs) would reduce the radiative forcing from CO2 by less than one-thousandth of a Watt per square meter, and that in turn the amount of manmade warming the scheme would abate would be less than one-thousandth of a Fahrenheit degree. Californa’s scheme, on its own, will make no measurable difference to global temperatures. And, as I have pointed out, scaling it up globally merely makes the expense global.
And I am sorry to see that, yet again, the people who defy the evidence and assume there is no greenhouse effect fall back on the experiment of Wood, which no one seems to have replicated recently. Reading the account of that experiment leads me to suspect that his controls upon it were nothing like as rigorous as those of Tyndall, who, half a century earlier, had demonstrated that there is a greenhouse effect by a well-designed experiment, by careful measurement, and by the application of established theory to the results.
Finally, a bad-tempered troll has, in a single posting, accused me of having potential links to various unspecified industries and then denied that he has used any ad-hominem arguments against me. I have no actual or potential links with any industries: and, unlike the climate extremists, I have no actual or potential links to governments either (in the sense of taking money from them to advocate a particular point of view on the climate). Rightly, the moderators have been snipping many of the troll’s comments, which do serve a valuable purpose in demonstrating the contrast between the rationality with which the skeptics try to deploy their case and the militant, un-self-critical abandonment of all reason on the part of the climate extremists. One of the reasons why I have spent so much time on the strange intellectual aberration that is catastrophic manmade warming is that one of the most serious harms done by the climate extremists lies in their assault on reason itself: and it is the power of reason, one of the three great powers of the soul in Christian theology, that marks us out most clearly from the rest of the visible creation and also marks our closeness in likeness to our Creator. If we lose our use of reason, we lose our humanity – and we lose the spark of the divine.
Tim Mantyla says:
April 4, 2012 at 11:04 am
@kim2ooo
Your laughter is silly here, it’s clear you fail to check the facts. It is obvious that you are no scientist either, and have no respect for science.
Tim, kim2000 is a kid. Where level-headed and investigative scientific thinking is concerned, she can wipe the floor with you.The inanity of your commentary here, which understandably made her giggle, makes this clear.
I did a similar calculation for Canada’s GHG emissions reduction plan in late-2010 after the legislation was brought before the Senate and defeated. Unsurprisingly, this caused considerable angst among Canada’s leftists, so I wrote up the following to make a fact-based argument in support of the Senate’s decision.
My work is rather basic compared to Christopher Monckton’s, since I don’t address monetary costs or benefits. But, I hope nobody will mind if I post it here anyway as an independent confirmation that efforts to cool the planet by reducing GHG emissions are ineffective (even under the most generous set of assumptions imaginable, and using the IPCC’s own estimates for emissions growth and climate sensitivity).
Enjoy.
*********************************************************************
Estimating the Impact of Climate Change Bill C-311
by Russ Rodrigues
November 27, 2010
Environmental groups became furious last month when the Canadian Senate voted against Bill C-311, known as the Climate Change Accountability Act, which would have committed Canadians to reducing the country’s greenhouse gas emissions. But what would Bill C-311 have actually achieved? I mean in real, concrete terms? How much of an impact would it have had in preventing global warming?
If you believe climate scientists (and I generally do), then GHG emissions reductions should have a quantifiable impact on global average surface temperature. So exactly how much cooler would the world be in 2100 if Canada were to cut its emissions? To find out, let’s do some basic math, using data from Environment Canada (www.ec.gc.ca), the Intragovernmental Panel on Climate Change (www.ipcc.ch), and the Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center(http://cdiac.ornl.gov).
According to Environment Canada, the country’s total GHG emissions stood at 592 MtCO2eq (million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent) in 1990, and rose to 734 MtCO2eq in 2008 (Note 1). For consistency in our calculations we’ll convert the units to MtC (million tonnes of carbon) by dividing by a factor of 44/12 (the molecular weight conversion factor from CO2 to C) (Note 2). That amounts to 161.5 MtC in 1990, and 200.2 MtC in 2008.
Let’s assume that without the bill, Canada would have continued to grow its emissions in line with the forecast for OECD nations in the IPCC’s worst case scenario… SRES A1FI (Note 3). Using the scenario’s total CO2 emissions growth rate, and 2008 as a starting point, Canada’s emissions would grow to 233 MtC by 2020, to 281 MtC by 2050, and to 419 MtC by 2100. Canada’s cumulative carbon emissions from now to the end of the century would add up to 27.2 GtC (billion tons of carbon).
Assuming now that Bill C-311 had become law, and Canada did indeed achieve the emissions reduction targets… 25% below 1990 levels (or 121.1 MtC) by 2020, and 80% below 1990 levels (or 32.3 MtC) by 2050, with emissions thereafter remaining absolutely flat until the end of the century, then cumulative emissions from now to 2100 would total only 6.1 GtC. That would be a whopping difference of 21.1 GtC prevented from entering the earth’s atmosphere.
But what impact would that have on the atmosphere? First, not all of all the emissions would actually remain in the atmosphere until 2100. According to CDIAC, approximately 60% of anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions are absorbed by the oceans or taken up in plant biomass (Note 4). So only 40% of those 21.1 GtC would have remained in the atmosphere for a net difference of 8.4 GtC. Next, as a general rule, it takes 2.13 GtC of emissions to increase or decrease the atmospheric CO2 concentration by 1 ppmv (Note 5), so a reduction of 8.4 GtC would result in an atmospheric CO2 concentration that was 4.0 ppmv lower than would have otherwise been the case at the end of the century.
What does 4.0 ppmv CO2 mean in terms of global temperature? Assuming that by the end of the century, global CO2 concentrations have risen to 550 ppmv (up from todays 389 ppmv but in line with the IPCC’s “best case scenario” – SRES B1) (Note 6), and assuming climate sensitivity of 3.0 degrees C for a doubling of CO2 concentrations (based on the IPCC’s “best estimate”) (Note 7), then the total impact on global average temperature would be only 0.031 degrees C (Note 8). This is an amount less that the measurement accuracy of even the best meteorological instruments.
So, is it really worth committing to 40 years of carbon emissions reductions (which necessarily involves increasing the cost of hydrocarbon fuels in order to both reduce consumption and force an industry-wide conversion to more expensive alternative energy sources), all so that after nearly all of us are dead, our great grand-children can enjoy a world that is imperceptibly cooler?
All I can say is, if I were a senator, I know how I would have voted.
Notes:
1. http://www.ec.gc.ca/Publications/default.asp?lang=En&xml=492D914C-2EAB-47AB-A045-C62B2CDACC29 The National Inventory Report 1990–2008: Greenhouse Gas Sources and Sinks in Canada.
2. http://cdiac.ornl.gov/faq.html#Q9
3. http://sres.ciesin.org/data/Version1.1/table/A1G_MINICAM/A1G_MINICAM_OECD90.html – Anthropogenic Emissions (Standardized) – Total CO2 GtC
4. http://cdiac.ornl.gov/faq.html#Q7
5. http://cdiac.ornl.gov/pns/convert.html – Table 3. Common Conversion Factors
6. http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/figure-10-26.html – CO2 Concentrations Scenario B1
7. http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/tssts-4-5.html – Climate Response to Radiative Forcing
8. 0.031 deg C = 3.0 deg C x ln((550-4)/550) / ln(2)
I don’t do math too good, so I try to simplify things for myself. The way I understand it, and I’m open to corrections from anyone, is that what money really represents is energy. Behind every dollar there is a quantity of calories required to produce labour, thought and resources. So than, the gazillions that have gone are still going into boondoggles and gabbing about climate use up far more energy or calories than can ever be replaced with any “mitigation” this onanism can accomplish. The unquantifiable cost in human misery, deaths and futures wasted is another story.
As Lord Monkton reminds, this is fundamentally a battle over reason. And whoever tells us that warm is bad and that destroying our civilization is worth a fraction of degree Centigrade doesn’t do reason.
Monckton of Brenchley says:
April 4, 2012 at 7:46 pm
And I am sorry to see that, yet again, the people who defy the evidence and assume there is no greenhouse effect fall back on the experiment of Wood, which no one seems to have replicated recently. Reading the account of that experiment leads me to suspect that his controls upon it were nothing like as rigorous as those of Tyndall, who, half a century earlier, had demonstrated that there is a greenhouse effect by a well-designed experiment, by careful measurement, and by the application of established theory to the results.
===============================================
Funny, nobody have called me “the people” before, but thank you, I will refer to myself as “me the people” from now on (lol).
Now let me kindly enlarge your otherwise significant knowledge on the issue.
First, neither professor Wood nor humble me assume “there is no greenhouse effect” nor demonstrates the Wood’s experiment that there is no greenhouse effect (in sense of capability of certain gasses to absorb and re-emit IR radiation). What the Wood’s experiment does indeed demonstrate is the mere fact, that a much stronger effect (of the glass lid blocking much more IR than the “greenhouse gasses” are capable of) is extremely weak and does not produce a significant rise in temperature. You can also find a reasonable explanation in the Wood’s article. To put it in a simple way, the surface can not radiate much for the simple reason: the air takes the energy from the surface via contact and convection, the air cools the surface this way and the relatively cold surface can not radiate much.
Second, it is not correct that “no one seems to have replicated the experiment of Wood recently”: http://www.biocab.org/Wood_Experiment_Repeated.html . Search engines are our friends.
Third, the Wood’s experiment is so simple, that you probably will be able to replicate it at low costs either at home or somewhere at a university, record it on video and then include this video in your presentations. I am very sure, that this would have a much more significant impact on the audience than many other things.
I am almost believing that Tim Mantyla’s comments are Anthony’s alternative belated April fools day joke ! Just kidding
Tim please take some time to absorb the discussions here. There is much to learn even if you do not agree and your understanding will grow with time. Look to the links to other science websites linked here also.
Well, if all the “sake of argument” presumptions from IPCC and Stern and so on are backed out, and the net benefits of added CO2 are acknowledged, the ROI for “mitigation” turns into a skyrocketting negative figure. I’d guesstimate that for every $1 dedicated to mitigation/reduction, the net benefit is probably about -$10. How to spend $11 by spending $1!
Actually, all this “granting for the sake of argument” is probably unwise. It indirectly strengthens the illusions and delusions that are being rebutted.
Lord Moncton said:
“One of the reasons why I have spent so much time on the strange intellectual aberration that is catastrophic manmade warming is that one of the most serious harms done by the climate extremists lies in their assault on reason itself: and it is the power of reason, one of the three great powers of the soul in Christian theology, that marks us out most clearly from the rest of the visible creation and also marks our closeness in likeness to our Creator. If we lose our use of reason, we lose our humanity – and we lose the spark of the divine.”
God Bless you Sir. It takes courage and goodness to say these things during the rise of totalitarian socialim/communism in the West.
Purely for information’ sake to what ends will the money coereced from Californian taxpayers through the cap-n-trade scheme be put?
Presumably, i will simply be re-directed into the pockets of favoured businesses and individuals who will spend it or invest it (or even if they ‘save it’ their bank will on-lend/ invest/ gamble it) on….what,…products, schemes, activities that emit zero CO2?
I don’t think so…even if all the cash was diverted to manufacturers/ operators of wind farms/ solar farms/geothermal farms etc etc… the money will be used to pay staff, buy vehicles and fuel, buy manufactured items and raw materials, land etc. etc. and thus converted back eventually into CO2. Presumably, it’s why existing cap-n-trade schemes (mentioned by CM) have no observable effect on CO2.
So the economics don’t add up in any respect: and so CMs generous treatment of its impact on CO2 emissions is even more of an under-estimate once the life-cycle of the cap-n-trade proceeds are taken into account.
It’s simply stealing from Peter and ghanding the loot to Paul in good-old-fashioned style socialist thievery.
Just one BIG scam.
Lord Monckton,
Grateful to hear how are the proceeds of cap-n-trade schemes are generally treated in models evaluating their cost-effectiveness?
Presumably, a good proportion of the revenues to govt from coercian of taxpayers is simply re-distributed to favoured individuals and groups. These then spend, save or invest these dollars on products, services or returns, generated or manufactured through the burning of fossil fuels.
And even where those dollars might be saved, this really means the bank with those savings on-loans for consumption/ investment in consumption production.
Even if all the money coerced from taxpayers by govt was handed over to the various hare-brained ‘renewable’ scams, those sham-scam-schemes would in any case need to use the cash to buy equipment, land, pay staff, run vehicles etc,. etc. all or nearly all of which will, at some point be associated with CO2 emissions.
So isn’t it really another form of socialist thievery from the productive members of society to benefit the parasitical classes, which ever way you look at it?
Or to put it more simply: one ginourmous SCAM?
Tim Mantyla says:April 4, 2012 at 10:30 am”
2. His so-called work has been thoroughly debunked a realclimate.org.”
Pardon my mirth!
Greg House says:
April 4, 2012 at 9:07 pm
Monckton of Brenchley says:
April 4, 2012 at 7:46 pm
And I am sorry to see that, yet again, the people who defy the evidence and assume there is no greenhouse effect fall back on the experiment of Wood, which no one seems to have replicated recently. Reading the account of that experiment leads me to suspect that his controls upon it were nothing like as rigorous as those of Tyndall, who, half a century earlier, had demonstrated that there is a greenhouse effect by a well-designed experiment, by careful measurement, and by the application of established theory to the results.
===============================================
Funny, nobody have called me “the people” before, but thank you, I will refer to myself as “me the people” from now on (lol).
Now let me kindly enlarge your otherwise significant knowledge on the issue.
First, neither professor Wood nor humble me assume “there is no greenhouse effect” nor demonstrates the Wood’s experiment that there is no greenhouse effect (in sense of capability of certain gasses to absorb and re-emit IR radiation). What the Wood’s experiment does indeed demonstrate is the mere fact, that a much stronger effect (of the glass lid blocking much more IR than the “greenhouse gasses” are capable of) is extremely weak and does not produce a significant rise in temperature.
=====================
No no no, I is me the people Monkton wants to shut down talking, we me say there is no greenhouse effect period
Because the whole thing is a sleight of hand magic contrik from the beginning – the comic cartoon energy budget has taken out the whole of the water cycle. Without water the Earth would be much much hotter, water vapour cools by 52°C from around 67°C to come down to 15°C.
There is no “33°C greenhouse warming from -18°C to 15°C” – there is no greenhouse warming because that figure is fictional fisics sleight of hand.
The rest of the fisics produced by warmists, has been created by the AGWScienceFiction meme production department to support this non-existent “33°C greenhouse gas warming” – for which no experimental let alone theoretical real word physics evidence has ever been forthcoming.
Prove it. What’s so hard to do here? There is no evidence and no proof forthcoming because that “33°C greenhouse gas warming” doesn’t exist. Have I made that clear? It doesn’t exist.
Arguments about whether carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas or not or can do what the warmists say it can do, are completely and utterly irrelevant because carbon dioxide is fully part of the Water Cycle, all pure clean rain is carbonic acid, and they have removed the water cycle. The concept is a contrik and the rest of the pretend fisics memes of the energy budget which have been created to support it are also just as contrived. Shortwave heating land and oceans?! The heat direct from the Sun not reaching the Earth’s surface?! Carbon dioxide defying gravity to stay up for hundreds and thousands of years in the atmosphere accumulating?! The empty space atmosphere of ideal gas hard dot molecules without volume, weight or attraction zipping through it at great speeds?!
That’s why they have no gravity. That’s why they have no convection. That’s why their clouds appear by magic. That’s why they have no sound…
Enough of pandering to this pretence. Put back the water cycle and the “33°C greenhouse gas warming” disappears.
The links of your logic don’t connect; “simply using more energy” is a strawman, and was not suggested. Making cheap energy available is the point. Those who do the work will then choose between breeding more child laborers and using it.
Just as CO2 is an un-problem, and indeed a benefit, the “population scare” is an un-problem, and more births would be a benefit.
There is looming depopulation by birth shortage in almost all the world — except the US; huge male child imbalances throughout Asia; and falling lifespan in Russia.
http://www.fpri.org/ww/0505.200407.eberstadt.demography.html
Lord Monckton, the UN actually does make good population estimates, Open this UNPD spreadsheet’s “Low Band” page (tab along the lower edge). Their Low Band has been (exclusively) accurate since the UNPD was first created decades ago.
Current projection: Peak <8bn by ~2040, slowly accelerating decline thereafter.
As for the "reasonable warmists'" acceptance of GHE, here's the result of using a slightly more physics-based model of the planet:
http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2012/04/04/joseph-postma/#more-5682
This is a reprint of a published overview of a longer paper:
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/the_model_atmosphere.pdf
The core "model" looks like this:
http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/fig3.png?w=614
Caption: Figure 3: [Although total energy out equals total energy in], Earth is in fact, on average, cooler than the solar radiative input temperature. With this single physical reality, the need to postulate a radiative greenhouse effect evaporates.
The key is to mathematically acknowledge the imbalance of actual energy input: very large at noon in the tropics, and falling away with distance around the globe. And to deal with actual delivered energy, not with flux. This is an accurate model, very unlike the “average” input-output underpinnings of the Trenberth cartoon.
So if there is such a thing as GHG back-radiation, it operates below the level of detectability. Or as G&T quote Schack as saying: the radiative component of heat transfer of CO2, though relevant at the temperatures in combustion chambers, can be neglected at atmospheric temperatures. The influence of carbonic acid on the Earth’s climates is definitively unmeasurable.
Note the very precise language, including “the Earth’s climates”. There is an ensemble of regional climates around the globe. The “global climate” is a nonentity.
typo: “reasonable luke-warmists”
The Friedman Multiple applies: every job artificially created via taxation destroys two jobs among the taxpaying classes: and, according to a recent Scottish report, each “green job” provided at taxpayers’ expense destroys getting on for five real jobs elsewhere.>/i>
Does the Noble Lord have a reference for the Scottish report?
I managed to cock that up. Hope the mods got the gist of it.
@Greg House:
It would be helpful if someone repeats Nasif S. Nahle experiments (which were a comprehensive repeat of Woods)
http://www.biocab.org/Experiment_on_Greenhouses__Effect.pdf
by injecting CO2 into the boxes to see if there was any measurable difference in temperature rise.
A temperature rise with CO2 injection , with and without the additional protective glass would be illuminating due to the masking of long wave radiation.
Woods, confirmed by Nahle, has debunked the ‘basic greenhouse theory’ but have not yet addressed whether CO2 ‘warms the atmosphere’ as people infer due to Tyndals lab experiments.
Some responses to comments:
The paper quantifying the job destruction caused by the artificial creation of so-called “green” jobs in Scotland was by Verso Economics in February 2011.
Dr. Nahle, in the light of comments by Willis Eschenbach and others, has accepted that his attempt to demonstrate by measurement that there is no greenhouse effect was not successful, since the equipment he used was neither designed for the purpose for which he used it nor suitable for it.
Though Wood’s experiment has not been replicated in a properly-calibrated way (and, even if it had been, the conclusion that there is no greenhouse effect does not follow), Tyndall’s experiment has been replicated many times, and a version of it can easily be done at home (or faked on TV, like Gore’s recent effort). There are numerous other lines of definitive evidence, from spectral-line analysis to quantum-level physics, which demonstrate the greenhouse effect. In the face of this weight of evidence, those who try to maintain that there is no greenhouse effect are merely vexatious unless they can come up with some proper, well-controlled, experimental evidence and also a reasonably detailed explanation of why each of the many lines of evidence establishing that there is a greenhouse effect is wrong.
My concern about allowing these tiresome and scientifically unsupported assertions that there is no greenhouse effect is that their real purpose seems to be to disrupt the genuine flow of scientific conversation on these threads and also to discredit climate skeptics generally by making them look like lunatics who reject established science.
Three discernible attempts to wreck proper discussion on sites such as this are evident. First, the trolls, who identify themselves as trolls by their sneering, ad-hominem tone and their inability to discuss scientific and economic questions in a rational and dispassionate way. In the end, they are helpful in that they expose the non-science and quasi-religious belief that lurks at the heart of climate extremism.
Next, the red-herring merchants, like the commenter on this thread who introduced an irrelevant incongruity in the shape of a scientifically-unsupported (and insupportable) contention that surface tension prevents the sun from warming the oceans. Swim down a few feet and look up. If you see daylight, the solar radiation is reaching you. The introduction of red herrings into scientific discussions was described by Aristotle 200 years ago as a logical fallacy. The medieval schoolmen later labeled it the argumentum ad ignorationem elenchi.
Thirdly, the small and irritating group that maintain, in the teeth of the established evidence but without offering any credible analysis or evidence in refutation of previous results, that there is no greenhouse effect.
I am glad that the moderators are now coming down heavily on the logical fallacy that is the argumentum ad hominem whenever the trolls resort to it. They have still allowed through one or two comments that I should have preferred to see either justified or deleted. For instance, those who make accusations of “lying” should not be allowed to make such accusations here, but should instead be allowed to state what they think has been misstated and why, leaving it to the readers to form their own judgments. but this growing unwillingness on the part of the moderators to tolerate mere yah-boo is welcome.
As to the remaining two categories of wreckers,at present they are given free rein to disrupt these discussions. How to deal with them without censoring them? Perhaps the best approach would be to create two new threads – let us call them ignoratio elenchi for the red-herring brigade and ignoratio scientiae for those who are reluctant to admit there is a greenhouse effect and are also reluctant to provide any credible evidence that there is none. These two threads will give these groups the full right to be heard and to have their ideas discussed, so that there is no censorship. Transferring red herrings and insufficiently-supported attacks on established scientific results away from discussions such as this one would, in my submission, greatly enhance the attractiveness, readability and usefulness of this splendid website.
Ally E. says:
April 4, 2012 at 4:22 pm
kim2ooo says:
April 4, 2012 at 11:27 am
[….]
But he told me not to go to a dishwasher repairman for plumbing help…But sent me to a fruit-fly scientist for AGW 🙂 🙂
O’kay I’ll be good 😉
*
Love this! Kim2000, I think you’re great. 🙂
Thank you 🙂
experiments.
Monckton of Brenchley says:
April 5, 2012 at 6:47 am
ome responses to comments:
…
As to the remaining two categories of wreckers,at present they are given free rein to disrupt these discussions. How to deal with them without censoring them? Perhaps the best approach would be to create two new threads – let us call them ignoratio elenchi for the red-herring brigade and ignoratio scientiae for those who are reluctant to admit there is a greenhouse effect and are also reluctant to provide any credible evidence that there is none. These two threads will give these groups the full right to be heard and to have their ideas discussed, so that there is no censorship. Transferring red herrings and insufficiently-supported attacks on established scientific results away from discussions such as this one would, in my submission, greatly enhance the attractiveness, readability and usefulness of this splendid website.
[snip] You rant against CAGW’s censoring and demeaning, etc. instead of looking critically at the science, yet you do the very same thing, and, with the worst of them you want to consign all opposition to the gulags to avoid being challenged..
I’ve asked you before, show the greenhouse effect you keep saying exists. Don’t just wave in the vague direction of Tyndall claiming it’s ‘settled science’ – I’ve read through Tyndall, I can’t find it.
Damn it, fetch it. Or can’t you find anything to support it in the considerable amount of science discovery from the time of your unproven ‘Tyndall proved it’ claim?
I, for one, can’t take you seriously because you do what all ‘warmists’ do, pretend that the science proves your claimed ‘greenhouse effect’, but always avoid show and tell. What stops you providing something better than your hypocritical ad homs in lieu of science fact?
= = = =
rgb,
Usually, in reasonable skeptic dialogs, such statements as yours “that greenhouse warming is an important contributor to global mean temperatures in the energy balance differential equations” are qualified by a statement saying something like all the many other physical science aspects of the Earth-atmospheric system being remaining equal.
Do you imply any qualification like that in your statement on ‘greenhouse’ warming as ‘important’? What context do you imply b the word ‘important’?
Good example of a reasonable qualification statement about the relative effects of the CO2 contribution to the ‘greenhouse effect’ is from Prof Lindzen who said:
John
This doesn’t seem to be stopping the UNFCCC from moving forward on absurd mitigation proposals. Sadly, MSM isn’t monitoring the IPCC Solution Work Groups nor the UNFCCC to protect the public interest from the fraud.
Thanks for all your tireless work Lord Monckton, hopefully they listened will not destroy the California economy with the AB32 nonsense, Carbon Tax, and CARB proclamations .
Reference:
UNFCCC Releases Parties’ Submissions on CCS under the CDM
28 March 2012:
source: http://climate-l.iisd.org/news/unfccc-releases-parties’-submissions-on-ccs-under-the-cdm/
The UNFCCC Secretariat has published the submissions from three parties on their views regarding specific aspects of the eligibility of carbon dioxide capture and storage (CCS) projects as Clean Development Mechanism (CDM) projects (FCCC/SBSTA/2012/MISC.8).
Three such submissions have been received from: Denmark and the European Commission on behalf of the EU and its member States; Nauru on behalf of the Alliance of Small Island States (AOSIS); and Pakistan.