No joy in Mudville – mighty Gavin has struck out

By John West (elevated from a comment in Unthreaded Weekend, inspired by Casey at the Bat)

Welcome to the WUWT Sports channel! For the debut game we have “The Cause” vs. “The Skeptics”:

First inning: Gavin Schmidt is up to bat for “The Cause”.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/12/a-barrier-to-understanding/

Norman Page steps to the mound and blisters one in:

“what year would you reconsider the CO2 – Warming paradigm if the CRU Global annual mean temperature is cooler than 2005 – 2009…?”

Schmidt swings:

“You need a greater than a decade non-trend that is significantly different from projections. [0.2 – 0.3 deg/decade]”

And it’s a miss! A decade +1 of essentially no trend (slight cooling):

http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/wti/from:2001/plot/wti/from:2001/trend

Strike 1.

http://www.realclimate.org/?comments_popup=2019Note

Page steps down to give John Henriksen a chance; He gives it all he’s got with this pitch:

“what would FALSIFY [linking CO2 to ‘warming’]?”

Schmidt swings again:

”that the stratosphere is not cooling as expected (this is a cleaner test than the surface temperatures because there are less extraneous factors)”

And it’s a miss! The stratosphere hasn’t been cooling in over a decade:

http://www.acd.ucar.edu/Research/Highlight/stratosphere.shtml

http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/temp-and-precip/upper-air/uahncdc.ls

http://www.arl.noaa.gov/documents/JournalPDFs/RandelEtal.JGR2009.pdf

Strike 2.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/09/how-much-will-sea-level-rise/comment-page-4/#comments

Richard Wakefield steps up and pitches:

”How many more years of no acceleration [in SLR] will it take to abandon AGW theory?”

Gavin swings:

“AGW is based on the radiative impact of CO2 and other atmospheric constituents – none of those things depend on sea level rise.”

Hit……..Foul Ball. Misdirection doesn’t answer the question. SLR is one of the claimed major impacts of AGW and often presented as evidence for GW. If sea level rise remains constant or drops I find it hard to believe that wouldn’t damage the AGW case among both laymen and impartial scientists considering how many times temperature increase has been connected to sea level rise and the “it’s accelerating” touted as proof it’s anthropogenic. Later in the same thread: “Do you have peer reviewed papers that shows that the cause of B (sea level rise) is because of AGW?” — Wakefield; ”Response: Yes. Domingues et al (2008). – gavin”. So, if SLR is caused by AGW and SLR stops where does that leave AGW? A cause without its signature effect? LOL.

http://www.realclimate.org/?comments_popup=6013

Now, Steve Shaw takes the mound, digs in, and throws a curve ball:

”To clarify what I am wrestling with, whether CO2 warms the planet isn’t the issue. The issue is whether we have enough information yet to say authoritatively that the next 40 years will be more like 1980-2000 than like 2000-2010, in the amount of increase. This is fundamental to determining appropriate public policy. ….. I just need some specific aspects pinned down.”

Schmidt doesn’t swing:

It’s in there, right through the strike zone into the catchers mitt: Obviously, this question is absolutely germane to the “debate”, if we can’t answer “yes”, and explain why in a Willis type elevator speech, then, what the heck is all the hullabaloo about? But instead of commenting with what should be an “easy” answer, this question is relegated to The Bore Hole (#383).

Strike 3; You’re OUT!

Next up at bat its “The Mann” himself and “The Skeptics” are in disagreement over whether they really need to send a picture up to the mound. But we’ve run out of time ….. signing off.

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kent Blaker
March 31, 2012 6:55 pm

If you want to get rid of CO2, you do it the same way that mother nature does it… you feed it to plants. You pump the CO2 into large greenhouses then harvest the food and then you sell the food to humans. Green phycosis causes people to see CO2 as a problem while sceptics see it as an asset.

William Astley
March 31, 2012 7:27 pm

In reply to Werner’s comment concerning Norman Page’s comment:
Werner Brozek says:
March 31, 2012 at 3:26 pm
Norman Page says:
March 31, 2012 at 2:09 pm
What does the SST data show? The 5 year moving SST temperature average shows that the warming trend peaked in 2003 and a simple regression analysis shows an nine year global SST cooling trend since then .The data shows warming from 1900 – 1940 ,cooling from 1940 to about 1975 and warming from 1975 – 2003. CO2 levels rose monotonically during this entire period .There has been no net warming since 1997 – 15 years with CO2 up 7.9% and no net warming.
Well said! They say a picture is worth a thousand words. I believe I have plotted what you say above. Feel free to tweak as desired and to use this next time
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1900/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1900/to:1940/trend/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1940/to:1975/trend/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1975/to:2003/trend/plot/hadsst2gl/from:2003/to:2013/trend/plot/hadsst2gl/from:1997/trend/plot/esrl-co2/from:1957/normalise
The observational evidence does not support the assertion that the 20th century warming was caused by CO2. The cycles of warming and cooling in the paleoclimatic record correlate with the cosmogenic isotope changes. The cosmogenic isotope changes are caused by solar magnetic cycle changes. Svensmark estimated that roughly 75% of the entire 20th century warming was caused by solar changes.
Curiously (curious as it accepted as a fact in the paleoclimatic community that there are cycles of warming and cooling sometimes followed by abrupt cooling in the paleoclimatic record yet everyone is keeping quiet about that fact). The cycles of warming followed by cooling are referred to as Dansgard/Oescheger cycles which are then followed occasionally by Heinrich events, both cycles are named after the researchers who discovered the phenomena.
How ironic would it be if the extreme AGW crowds were 100% incorrect? The 20th century warming was caused by the solar cycle changes not CO2. Everything points to that conclusion. The icing on the cake would be significant unexplained cooling.
Check out the Greenland ice sheet temperature changes over the last 12000 years in this link (figure 3).
http://www.climate4you.com/images/GISP2%20TemperatureSince10700%20BP%20with%20CO2%20from%20EPICA%20DomeC.gif
It is interesting that the Dansgaard/Oescheger events have characteristic period of 1470 years have continued throughout the Holocene interglacial period.
As there are cosmogenic isotope changes that are concurrent with all of the Dansgaard/Oescheger events (also referred to a Bond events named after Gerald Bond who tracked 23 of the cycles) and the Heinrich events seems likely a specific solar cycle change is causing what is observed.
http://www.climate4you.com/images/GISP2%20TemperatureSince10700%20BP%20with%20CO2%20from%20EPICA%20DomeC.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1500-year_climate_cycle
List of Bond events
Most Bond events do not have a clear climate signal; some correspond to periods of cooling, others are coincident with aridification in some regions.
• ≈1,400 BP (Bond event 1) — roughly correlates with the Migration Period pessimum(450–900 AD)
• ≈2,800 BP (Bond event 2) — roughly correlates with the Iron Age Cold Epoch (900–300 BC)[8]
• ≈4,200 BP (Bond event 3) — correlates with the 4.2 kiloyear event
• ≈5,900 BP (Bond event 4) — correlates with the 5.9 kiloyear event
• ≈8,100 BP (Bond event 5) — correlates with the 8.2 kiloyear event
• ≈9,400 BP (Bond event 6) — correlates with the Erdalen event of glacier activity in Norway,[9] as well as with a cold event in China.[10]
• ≈10,300 BP (Bond event 7) — unnamed event
• ≈11,100 BP (Bond event 8) — coincides with the transition from the Younger Dryas to the boreal
http://www.geo.arizona.edu/palynology/geos462/8200yrevent.html
http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/transit.html
According to the marine records, the Eemian interglacial ended with a rapid cooling event about 110,000 years ago (e.g., Imbrie et al., 1984; Martinson et al., 1987), which also shows up in ice cores and pollen records from across Eurasia. From a relatively high resolution core in the North Atlantic. Adkins et al. (1997) suggested that the final cooling event took less than 400 years, and it might have been much more rapid.
The event at 8200 ka is the most striking sudden cooling event during the Holocene, giving widespread cool, dry conditions lasting perhaps 200 years before a rapid return to climates warmer and generally moister than the present. This event is clearly detectable in the Greenland ice cores, where the cooling seems to have been about half-way as severe as the Younger Dryas-to-Holocene difference (Alley et al., 1997; Mayewski et al., 1997). No detailed assessment of the speed of change involved seems to have been made within the literature (though it should be possible to make such assessments from the ice core record), but the short duration of these events at least suggests changes that took only a few decades or less to occur.
The Younger Dryas cold event at about 12,900-11,500 years ago seems to have had the general features of a Heinrich Event, and may in fact be regarded as the most recent of these (Severinghaus et al. 1998). The sudden onset and ending of the Younger Dryas has been studied in particular detail in the ice core and sediment records on land and in the sea (e.g., Bjoerck et al., 1996), and it might be representative of other Heinrich events.
Timing of abrupt climate change: A precise clock by Stefan Rahmstorf
Many paleoclimatic data reveal a approx. 1,500 year cyclicity of unknown origin. A crucial question is how stable and regular this cycle is. An analysis of the GISP2 ice core record from Greenland reveals that abrupt climate events appear to be paced by a 1,470-year cycle with a period that is probably stable to within a few percent; with 95% confidence the period is maintained to better than 12% over at least 23 cycles. This highly precise clock points to an origin outside the Earth system; oscillatory modes within the Earth system can be expected to be far more irregular in period.
Persistence Solar Influence on Climate in Holocene, By Bond et al.
http://www.essc.psu.edu/essc_web/seminars/spring2006/Mar1/Bond%20et%20al%202001.pdf
“A solar forcing mechanism therefore may underlie at least the Holocene segment of the North Atlantic 1500-year cycle. The surface hydrographic changes may have affected production of North Atlantic Deep Water, potentially providing an additional mechanism for amplifying the solar signals and transmitting them globally.”
“A prominent feature of the North Atlantic’s Holocene climate is a series of shifts in ocean surface hydrography during which drift ice and cooler surface waters in the Nordic and Labrador Seas were repeatedly advected southward and eastward, each time penetrating deep into the warmer strands of the subpolar circulation . The persistence of
those rather dramatic events within a stable interglacial has been difficult to explain.”
For example the paper: “The role of solar forcing upon climate change” Published 1999.
http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.gg.rhbnc.ac.uk/elias/teaching/VanGeel.pdf
“A number of those Holocene climate cooling phases… most likely of a global nature (eg Magney, 1993; van Geel et al, 1996; Alley et al 1997; Stager & Mayewski, 1997) … the cooling phases seem to be part of a millennial-scale climatic cycle operating independent of the glacial-interglacial cycles (which are) forced (perhaps paced) by orbit variations.”
“… we show here evidence that the variation in solar activity is a cause for the millennial scale climate change.”
Last 40 kyrs
Figure 2 in paper. (From data last 40 kyrs)… “conclude that solar forcing of climate, as indicated by high BE10 values, coincided with cold phases of Dansgaar-Oeschger events as shown in O16 records”
Recent Solar Event
“Maunder Minimum (1645-1715) “…coincides with one of the coldest phases of the Little Ice Age… (van Geel et al 1998b)
Periodicity
“Mayewski et al (1997) showed a 1450 yr periodicity in C14 … from tree rings and …from glaciochemicial series (NaCl & Dust) from the GISP2 ice core … believed to reflect changes in polar atmospheric circulation..”

Eric Adler
March 31, 2012 7:54 pm

The Blogpost says:
“Schmidt swings:
“You need a greater than a decade non-trend that is significantly different from projections. [0.2 – 0.3 deg/decade]”
And it’s a miss! A decade +1 of essentially no trend (slight cooling):
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/wti/from:2001/plot/wti/from:2001/trend
Strike 1.”
It is not really a miss, only close to a miss. The 95% confidence interval as 0.20, so a zero trend is not significantly different from projections.

VJ
March 31, 2012 8:05 pm

“You need a greater than a decade non-trend that is significantly different from projections. [0.2 – 0.3 deg/decade]”
And it’s a miss! A decade +1 of essentially no trend (slight cooling):
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/wti/from:2001/plot/wti/from:2001/trend

Did you just not notice the word “statistically”? Or did you not understand what it meant?
Suspecting that the rest of this post would be similarly nonsensical, I did not read on.

March 31, 2012 8:28 pm

As for a decade or 15 years of no warming: I think it is important to
consider a period of a decade or somewhat more with minimal magnitude
of linear trends of ENSO and AMO.
Perhaps, the 13 year period from the beginning of 1999 to the beginning
of 2012. The linear trend in HadCRUT3 over that decade is .044 degree/decade.
I used the woodfortrees tool for that.
This *may be* close to the actual warming rate from anthropogenic increase
of CO2. I figure that would mean climate sensitivity to CO2 change being .67
degree C per factor-of-2 change of CO2 (logarhythmic response at this rate
when CO2 is 120-900 PPMV).
Other analyses of mine support climate sensitivity to CO2 being .8-1.5
degrees C per factor-of-2 change of CO2, mostly .82-1.3 degrees C per
2x CO2.

Eric Adler
March 31, 2012 8:31 pm

Schmidt swings again:
”that the stratosphere is not cooling as expected (this is a cleaner test than the surface temperatures because there are less extraneous factors)”
One problem with this statement is that the stratospheric temperature has a lot of extraneous factors that affect it – Ozone, which is affected by volcanic eruptions and CFC’s, and overturning in the Brewer Dobson circulation, as well as the variation in upwelling long wave radiation.
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/2008JCLI2482.1

March 31, 2012 8:36 pm

William Astley Great Post – thanks . The Younger Dryas onset was more or less instantaneous and was certainly caused by an impact at about 12900 – wiped out the Meagfauna, http://www.pnas.org/content/109/13/E738.
A really intiguing question is -what caused the sudden warming about 1400 years later ?

John West
March 31, 2012 8:58 pm

Eric Adler says:
“It is not really a miss, only close to a miss. The 95% confidence interval as 0.20, so a zero trend is not significantly different from projections.”
So, then, the corollary would be that the projected global warming that we’re going to change the entire power infrastructure of the world and create a global governing elite among other niceties to avoid is not significantly different from no warming at all.

March 31, 2012 8:59 pm

John West said:
>Schmidt swings again:
>”that the stratosphere is not cooling as expected (this is a cleaner test than
>the surface temperatures because there are less extraneous factors)”
I had a look at “lower stratosphere” temperature trend, by RSS/REMSS:
http://www.remss.com/data/msu/graphics/tls/plots/sc_Rss_compare_TS_channel_tls_v03_3.png
Found within: http://www.remss.com/msu/msu_data_description.html#msu_amsu_trend_map_tls
What I see: Strong downward trend, noted as -.303 degree/decade.
One thing else I see: Some of that linear trend is due to volcanic peaks in
the 1st half of the time period covered. I estimate the trend exluding these
was about -.25 to -.26 degree/decade.
Something else I know: About 20-25% of anthropogenic GHG effect growth
from 1978 to the mid 1990’s was from anthropogenic GHGs other than CO2,
and whose increase was largely stalled in the mid 1990’s. So, this could
account for about ~12-13% of anthropogenic GHG growth from the beginning
of 1979 to now, meaning that lower stratosphere temperature trend due to
factors other than growth of non-CO2 GHGs could be more like -.22 to -.23
degree/decade.
This still sounds high in magnitude to me. Perhaps PDO and/or AMO and/or
change in solar activity or something else non-anthropogenic explains part
of this change. Possibly poor measurement in the first few years?
Possibly slight reversal of ozone depletion after the mid 1990’s? Ozone
warms the stratosphere by absorbing UVC and a fair amount of UVB.
Something else I see: Bouncy behavior in response to major tropical
volcanoes. The pattern appears to me to be spike, then plunge, and then
spend several years resisting the longer-term downward trend. I expect
the downward trend to soon resume, but at a rate with lower magnitude than
that of -.22 or -.23 degree/decade. Maybe TLS will hardly resume its decline
if stratospheric ozone achieves a major recovery.

Eric Adler
March 31, 2012 9:12 pm

Looking back at the link, Gavin’s actual reply to Hendrickson emphasized the spectrum of outgoing radiation, and was not exclusively about stratospheric cooling, as the excerpt indicated:
“[Response: The evidence that CO2 specifically is having an impact on climate comes from radiation measurements and in particular temperature trends in the stratosphere (which are cooling in contradiction of almost all other drivers). Combine that with expected changes predicted decades ago that have actually happened, you end up with a strong case that CO2 (along with the other GHGs and aerosols) are having an impact, and that will increase in decades to come. If you want to falsify this, you’d have to show that spectral data on CO2 absorption is wrong, that the stratosphere is not cooling as expected (this is a cleaner test than the surface temperatures because there are less extraneous factors), or improve the satellite measurements by an order of magnitude and have the fluxes not look like what is expected. Tall order, but conceivable. – gavin]”
Clearly the spectral changes outgoing radiation have been occurring:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-co2-enhanced-greenhouse-effect-advanced.htm

David Gould
March 31, 2012 10:26 pm

Taking autocorrelation into account, the 95 per cent confidence for the *yearly* trend in that data ranges from -0.204 to +0.166. (assuming that my calculations are correct). Given that the prediction is for between .02 to .03 per year, that woodforthetrees plot does not falsify the prediction. The data is way too noisy.

John West
March 31, 2012 10:32 pm

Eric Adler says:
“Gavin’s actual reply to Hendrickson emphasized the spectrum of outgoing radiation, and was not exclusively about stratospheric cooling, as the excerpt indicated”
In English “or” means “either”. The excerpt indicated that Gavin expressed that a lack of stratospheric cooling would be a condition that if not met would raise doubts. The link was provided for full context which as anyone who understands English can see he gives three separate conditions; one of which is lack of stratospheric cooling.
In industry we have the “80:20 rule” or what’s commonly called low hanging fruit, in economics it’s the Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns; these concepts describe the nature of a logarithmic relationship like the one CO2 has to warming. If you consider how much warming you get from an amount of CO2, the amount of CO2 must be increased exponentially in order get the same increment of warming. All indications including stratospheric cooling hiatus, global warming pause, and ocean heat content leveling suggest that CO2 has warmed the system about has much as it is going to without adding a whole lot more; in other words we’ve reached (and possibly even been past for awhile) the point of diminishing marginal returns such that our inputs of CO2 has very little warming effect.

Julian Flood
April 1, 2012 1:37 am

Eric Adler gave a link to SkS (Skeptical Science), the ‘advanced’ section about radiation:
It’s well worth looking at it. Here’s one statement:
“However, climate scientists have indeed quantified the anthropogenic contribution to global warming using empirical observations and fundamental physical equations. ”
Well, yes, I’m sure they have. Care to put confidence intervals on those empirical observations? Care to quantify the known unknowns? Apart from that I’m convinced. Who could doubt that climate scientists are totally reliable when they use fundamental equations to calculate what’s going on?
The graphs are interesting:
“Figure 2: Spectrum of the greenhouse radiation measured at the surface. Greenhouse effect from water vapor is filtered out, showing the contributions of other greenhouse gases (Evans 2006).”
That one makes me want to see one with the H2O effect added in.
“Figure 4: Global average radiative forcing in 2005 (best estimates and 5 to 95% uncertainty ranges) with respect to 1750 (IPCC AR4).”
An oldie but a goody… The uncertainty associated with aerosols stands out as a major obstacle to definitive statements about overall forcing. So we can look forward to a major science push on these, new satellites, deployment of aircraft with sensors, a network of monitoring sites? After all, this is a major threat to civilisations, to life itself, so we’re working like mad to reduce uncertainties like that. Aren’t we? I’m sure that AR5 will make it all clear.
“Figure 3: Time series of anthropogenic and natural forcings contributions to total simulated and observed global temperature change. The coloured shadings denote the 5-95% uncertainty range.”
There are two figure 3s, the one that caught my eye was the one which calculates simulated vs observed warming. A brilliant graph, and brilliant graphmanship. Observe how the warming from 1910 to 1945 somehow doesn’t look as big as the warming from 1975 onwards. How can this be? The choice of colours, the hockey-stick sweep at the end, the cut-off before the 21st century warming hiatus, they all contribute to this impression. But look at the graph carefully and ponder what it tells: from 1910 to 1945 there was a rise very similar to the one from 1975 to 2000. But the graph shows that with no anthropogenic warming, with no natural warming, the warming still happened in the earlier period. The graph need another forcing added. Call it early 20th century unknown warming (Fudge et al 2012). I expect climate scientists can work it out using fundamental physics. Let us remember the root of the word ‘fundamental’.
Yes, indeed, the graphs are interesting. Also interesting is to remember Feynman’s strictures about absolute honesty in science. I bet Feynman never fudged a graph in his life.
JF

Alexej Buergin
April 1, 2012 1:43 am

What this poor old chap needs is a cricket bat and a sticky wicket.

Stephen Richards
April 1, 2012 2:04 am

Eric Adler says:
March 31, 2012 at 7:54 pm
That makes it a miss. Foul shot. Off the edge of the racket into the cowd behind. 😉
I played baseball with some american mormons some 50 yrs ago.

Stephen Richards
April 1, 2012 2:05 am

Isn’t tha face smarmy. Looks like he is sucking a lemon.

Eric Adler
April 1, 2012 6:48 am

John West says:
March 31, 2012 at 10:32 pm
“In industry we have the “80:20 rule” or what’s commonly called low hanging fruit, in economics it’s the Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns; these concepts describe the nature of a logarithmic relationship like the one CO2 has to warming. If you consider how much warming you get from an amount of CO2, the amount of CO2 must be increased exponentially in order get the same increment of warming. All indications including stratospheric cooling hiatus, global warming pause, and ocean heat content leveling suggest that CO2 has warmed the system about has much as it is going to without adding a whole lot more; in other words we’ve reached (and possibly even been past for awhile) the point of diminishing marginal returns such that our inputs of CO2 has very little warming effect.”
People in industry should be cautious about declaring the beginning or end of a trend when the data is noisy, fragmentary, and many different driving forces are affecting the data. Warming slowed and increased during the decade between 1990 and 2000 as well. After a strong volcanic eruption and a strong El Nino, 2000 ended up slightly lower than 1990 according to the GISS temperature graph. We have had a strong La Nina in 2011, and a weak solar cycle which are both cooling factors.
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs_v3/Fig.A2.gif

John West
April 1, 2012 8:06 am

Donald L. Klipstein
I confess, I actually went “phishing” at RC for information on this: (Note: I used my ID.)
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/11/two-year-old-turkey/comment-page-7/#comments
Ray Ladbury gave me an opportunity to slip in:

Actually, stratospheric cooling stopped around ’93. Somehow, ~-0.1 W/m2 forcing is counteracting it (since 2000 ~-0.2 prior). Aerosol climatic cooling has the opposite fingerprint as GHG climatic warming, btw.
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/temp-and-precip/msu/
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6044/866.abstract
Here’s the problem: CO2 in 2000=~365 and 2010=~390, so, 5.35 x ln(390/365) = ~0.35 W/m2. How does ~-0.1 counter ~0.35?
Hint: 1) ozone depletion is estimated to be negative though there’s both + and – factors(another net ~-0.15 W/m2), 2) I use “~” for approximately so the values aren’t exacts, 3) there’s a myriad of other forcings both + and -, 4) lags in the system (thermal inertia), and 5) internal variability. (There might be more reasons, I’m not a climatologist.)

I listed every excuse I could think of as to why the stratosphere is not cooling (and everything else is not warming) other than the one that those RC are not likely to consider; that CO2 has done about all it can (peak AGW). Gavin responded; note he didn’t counter my math or elaborate much on any other of those “myriad” of forcings to explain how the +0.35 CO2 forcing was countered between 2000 and 2010. Perhaps he felt my explanation was sufficient; I don’t, they’re just excuses IMO.)
“[Response: MSU-4 (TLS) is dominated by trends in ozone, not CO2. CO2 effects are much more clearly seen higher up (in the stratospheric sounding unit (SSU) or radiosonde data). See papers by Bill Randall on this topic. With stabilisation of strat ozone levels, MSU4 should be expect to flatten out and with ozone recovery, will start to rise again. There are also volcanic and solar effects of course. – gavin]”
And that is why I added the link showing the upper stratosphere:
http://www.acd.ucar.edu/Research/Highlight/stratosphere.shtml
So, yes, there has been stratospheric cooling but it stopped around 1995 while CO2 continued to climb. Correlation does not prove causation, but de-correlation disproves causation.

John West
April 1, 2012 8:27 am

@Eric Adler
“People in industry should be cautious about declaring the beginning or end of a trend when the data is noisy, fragmentary, and many different driving forces are affecting the data.”
People in academia should be cautious about declaring attribution to the cause of a trend when the data is noisy, fragmentary, and many different driving forces are affecting the data.
People in academia should be cautious about extrapolating a trend and declaring it a high confidence projection when the data is noisy, fragmentary, and many different driving forces are affecting the data.
“We have had a strong La Nina in 2011, and a weak solar cycle which are both cooling factors.”
What? The sun has an effect on climate?
Ok, so that explains 2011, what about 2000 through 2010?

ChE
April 1, 2012 9:07 am

“AGW is based on the radiative impact of CO2 and other atmospheric constituents – none of those things depend on sea level rise.”

That’s interesting. So if sea levels rise, it’s evidence of AGW, but if they don’t, it’s not evidence against. Cool trick, huh?

edmh
April 1, 2012 9:11 am

Gavin Schmidt is bad at sums
The IPCC asserts that all the warming since 1850, (about +0.7°C) is wholly due to Man-made CO2 emissions. However there are other published and peer-reviewed opinions that differs on the actual level of the impact of Man-made additions of CO2 to the atmosphere.
A well-accepted view is provided by CDIAC, the Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Centre of the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) , (this reference has since been deleted).
The CDIAC figures can be transposed into parts of the 33°C total Greenhouse Effect are as follows:
Water Vapour ~95% of effect ~31.35°C
Greenhouse Gases ~5% ~1.65°C
Carbon Dioxide at 390 ppmv ~75% non H2O GHGs ~1.24°C
Natural CO2 ~86% (assuming 50% emissions since 1850 Man-made) ~1.07°C
Man-made CO2 2010
(50% of the 110 ppmv increase from 280 ppmv of 390 ppmv ) ~14% ~0.17°C
Other non H2O GHGs gases ~25% ~0.41°C
The CDIAC figure of ~0.17°C for Man-made influence since 1850 is roughly a quarter of the measured temperature rise of ~0.7°C since then. That level accords well with the notion that the temperature increase can be allocated roughly 50/50% solar influence and 50/50% natural / Man-made CO2 emissions.
A value in the region of ~0.17°C for the effect of worldwide emissions to date has been accepted in correspondence with Professor David MacKay, the chief scientific advisor of the UK Department of Energy and Climate Change.
On the other hand, Gavin Schmidt of NASA GISS, one of the topmost scientists involved in the Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming cause, published in his 2010 peer reviewed paper clearly lays out the following calculation:
Water Vapour ~75% of effect ~24.75°C
Greenhouse Gases ~25% ~8.25°C
Carbon Dioxide at 390 ppmv of non H2O GHGs ~7.84°C
Natural CO2 ~86% (assuming 100% emissions since 1850 are Man-made) ~5.63°C
Man-made CO2 2010
(100% of the 110 ppmv increase from 280 ppmv of 390 ppmv ) ~14 ~2.21°C
Other non H2O GHGs gases as above ~0.41°C
As the reported and well reported temperature increase since 1850 is only ~0.7°C in total, Gavin Schmidt’s assertion has to be in error.
So this premier scientist supporting the concept of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming markedly exaggerates the Man-made effect by more than threefold than the actual rise since 1850.
Gavin Schmidt obviously did not carry out these trivial check sums before his publication and peer review. They would have shown that his figures grossly exaggerate Man-made influence on temperature.
His peer reviewing colleagues also did not do this simple check sum.
Nonetheless the alarmist Cause expects the Western world to revolutionise its economies based on this type of casual and sloppy calculation.
This is the type of trivial due diligence that seems never to be undertaken when radical and vastly expensive policies are formulated to address Global Warming.
Instead inaccurate assertions are regularly made and widely accepted by governments and the public
The NASA GISS the group, headed by Jim Hansen, is also one of the official repositories of global Temperature record. His organisation has been continually rewriting history, (1984 style), over the last 30 years.
Such retrospective and un-auditable revisions of the historic records have occurred particularly in the USA where the records of temperature earlier in the 20th century have been consistently lowered to emphasise warming. This has been a continuing process.
NASA GISS have also altered records outside the USA.
One the most egregious recent instances being the past records in Reykjavik Iceland which has seen past values amended in spite of protest from the Icelandic Meteorological Office.
These are the records and the experts that the World via the UN IPCC depends upon and on which the Western world is basing its costly policy decisions.

Bart
April 1, 2012 9:27 am

Julian Flood says:
April 1, 2012 at 1:37 am
“But look at the graph carefully and ponder what it tells: from 1910 to 1945 there was a rise very similar to the one from 1975 to 2000.”
Yep, though I usually compare 1910-1940 to 1970-2000. That pretty much nails it: this is a recurring cycle. The global average temperature metric is set to decline modestly until roughly 2030, then rise again for another 30 years. All perfectly naturally. This, of course, is why the CG1 emails showed them trying so hard to get rid of the mid-century warming peak.

William Astley
April 1, 2012 10:23 am

Norman Page says:
March 31, 2012 at 8:36 pm
William Astley Great Post – thanks . The Younger Dryas onset was more or less instantaneous and was certainly caused by an impact at about 12900 – wiped out the Meagfauna, http://www.pnas.org/content/109/13/E738.
A really intiguing question is -what caused the sudden warming about 1400 years later ?
Hi Norman,
This is likely not the best thread or best time to discuss cyclic abrupt cooling. Let’s restart this discussion when there is a more appropriate thread.
Best wishes
William
My point above is it is an accepted fact in the paleoclimatology circles (papers and textbooks) that there are cycles of warming and cooling. The past warming and cooling cycles were not caused by CO2 increases. Gavin Schmidt does not act like a climate scientist. A climate scientist is interested in explain what happened in the past and what happened in the past.
Gavin Schmidt appears to only be interested in pushing a hypothesis which past and current observations and analysis does not support. The science does not support the extreme AGW hypothesis. The paleoclimatic data does not support the extreme AGW hypothesis. The extreme AGW crowd are pushing the wrong mechanism. (See the link to climate for 4 big picture.)
What caused the past cycles of warming and cooling? The correct hypothesis must explain all of the observations. Cyclic climate (warming followed by cooling) change followed every 8000 to 10000 years by abrupt climate change (cooling type) requires a cyclic physical forcing function.
There is a suit of data that supports the assertion that a significant portion (roughly 75%) of the 20th century warming has caused by solar magnetic cycle changes not CO2 changes. I do not understand how Gavin Schmidt can ignore the observational data and analysis that disproves the extreme AGW hypothesis.
http://www.climate4you.com/images/GISP2%20TemperatureSince10700%20BP%20with%20CO2%20from%20EPICA%20DomeC.gif
http://climate4you.com/
P.S. I will start my own thread if there is significant cooling and/or evidence of an unexplained abrupt interruption to the solar magnetic cycle.
Comments:
A comet impact is not capable of causing what is observed during the Younger Dryas abrupt climate change period. There is a geomagnetic excursion at the same time as Younger Dryas. A geomagnetic excursion is capable of cooling the planet for 1000 years. There are cycles of Younger Dryas like cooling in the paleoclimatic record which are referred to as Heinrich events which also have geomagnetic excursions. It is appears cyclic solar changes caused the geomagnetic excursions. Let’s wait for another opportunity to discuss this subject. There needs to be either evidence of a solar magnetic cycle interruption or significant cooling, to make the geomagnetic excursion hypothesis interesting to a general audience.
There are roughly 30 different locations in the Northern Hemisphere that have burn marks. There is no crater at locations of the burn marks. 70% of the Younger Dryas cooling occurs within a decade and the planet particularly in the North Hemisphere cools for a 1000 years.
The ½ million Carolina Bay burn marks are dated at 100,000 to 60,000 years ago. There is evidence at the Carolina Bay of restrike which creates overlapping elliptical burn marks. As the earth turns during the strike all of the Carolina Bay burn marks are elliptical with the axis of the burn mark aligned in the North-west direction. Have look at the Carolina Bay burn marks in the attached. Think of a massive electrical discharge from the ionosphere to the planet’s surface.
The authors of the paper you linked to interrupt nanodiamonds, microspherules as evidence of comet impact (there is not iridium which rules out a meteoroid impact. The Firestone paper’s finding of iridium was shown to be incorrect.). Nanodiamonds and microspherules are also created by electromagnetic pulses.
“nanodiamonds, microspherules, and other unusual materials that date to the early Younger Dryas and are interpreted to result from an extraterrestrial impact.”
Reduced solar activity as a trigger for the start of the Younger Dryas?
This paper is a good review of the data concerning the Younger Dryas. It is interesting to look at the development of the different hypotheses and mechanisms from a scientific historical standpoint as well as pure science. The authors postulated TSI variance mechanism is not correct.
http://cio.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/root/2000/QuatIntRenssen/
The Thermal Haline Conveyor (THC) interruption theory postulated by Wally Broeker has been shown to be incorrect.
Comment:
Gavin Schmidt is a co-author of a paper that tries to explain the polar see-saw phenomena where which is the name for cyclic periods where the Antarctic cools when the Arctic warms and visa versa (i.e. exactly what we are currently observing) on ocean current changes. The ocean current hypothesis has however been shown to be incorrect as the ocean current takes roughly a 1000 years to change and direct measurement of Greenland and Antarctic ice sheet temperature using temperature probes in the ice shows the cyclic polar see-saw is instantaneous. Other logic and analysis to disprove the ocean current hypothesis is recent measurement of ocean currents which has shown there is no ocean conveyor or Seager’s paper (see attached) which shows using a computer model (and a back of the envelope calculation) that a complete stoppage of the North Atlantic drift current is physically not capable of causing the Younger Dryas cooling (order of 10 times to small). In addition as Seager notes the melt water pulse which was alleged to cause an interruption to North Atlantic drift current occurred a 1000 years before the Younger Dryas cooling event.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090513130942.htm
Cold Water Ocean Circulation Doesn’t Work As Expected
The familiar model of Atlantic ocean currents that shows a discrete “conveyor belt” of deep, cold water flowing southward from the Labrador Sea is probably all wet.
A 50-year-old model of ocean currents had shown this southbound subsurface flow of cold water forming a continuous loop with the familiar northbound flow of warm water on the surface, called the Gulf Stream. “Everybody always thought this deep flow operated like a conveyor belt, but what we are saying is that concept doesn’t hold anymore,” said Duke oceanographer Susan Lozier. “So it’s going to be more difficult to measure these climate change signals in the deep ocean.”
http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/id.999,y.0,no.,content.true,page.1,css.print/issue.aspx
The binge purge ice sheet theory has been shown to be incorrect. The ice sheets have been shown to simultaneously rush into the ocean. The ice sheets are geographically separate. There is no mechanism to regulate the building up of the ice sheets from geographical separate ice sheets.
http://www.pnas.org/content/104/41/16016.short
Research Sites. Ten Clovis and equivalent-age sites were selected because of their long-established archeological and paleontological significance, and, hence, most are well documented and dated by previous researchers (see SI Table 2). Two are type-sites where unique PaleoAmerican projectile point styles were first named: the Clovis-point style at Blackwater Draw, NM, and the Gainey-point style at Gainey, MI. Three of the sites are confirmed megafaunal kill sites, and six of 10 have a black mat overlying the YDB. At Blackwater Draw and Murray Springs, the YDB is found directly beneath the black mat and overlying Clovis artifacts with extinct megafaunal remains.
The other sample sites were in and around 15 Carolina Bays, a group of approximately 500,000 elliptical lakes, wetlands, and depressions that are up to_10 km long and located on the Atlantic Coastal Plain (SI Fig. 7). We sampled these sites because Melton, Schriever (20), and Prouty (21) proposed linking them to an ET impact in northern North America. However, some Bay dates are reported to be _38 ka (22), older than the proposed date for the YD event. Each of the 10 Clovis-age sites displays a YDB layer (average thickness of 3 cm) that contains a diversity of markers (magnetic microspherules and grains, charcoal, soot, carbon spherules, glasslike carbon, nanodiamonds, and fullerenes with ET helium). The Ir levels are above background in both bulk sediment and magnetic fractions at up to 117 parts per billion (ppb), which is 25% of levels in CI (Ivuna type) chondritic meteorites (23). The YDB also exhibits uranium (U) and thorium (Th) in high concentrations that are up to 25_ crustal abundance. At the 15 Bay sites examined, basal sediments and rim sands contain peaks in the same ET assemblage found in the YDB at Clovis sites elsewhere.

John West
April 1, 2012 11:07 am

VJ asks:
”Did you just not notice the word “statistically”? Or did you not understand what it meant?”
Could you point out between which two words the word “statistically” is used? Never mind, I’ll concede that when Gavin says significant he means statistically significant. Remember this statement was made in 2007. He states in the same response: ”All trends starting before 1996 are unambiguously positive and significant. But so is starting from 1999 or 2000 – 0.31+/-0.22 and 0.34+/-0.29 (95% confidence). Therefore the only significant trends you can find are spot on projections. Even the non-sig trends are still positive and with uncertainties that encompass the predictions.” So, do you really want to hang by a fingernail of “statistical” significance? In 2007 Gavin goes back to pre-1996 for “unambiguously positive and significant” trends and he describes the trends from 1999 and 2000 as “spot on projections”, now that it’s 2012 can we go back to 2001 and say the trend is “unambiguously positive and significant” and is the trend from 2004 and 2005 “spot on projections”? I think not. Can we say that even the “non-sig trends are still positive”? Nope.
Again: If no warming at all is not significantly different from the projections then why are the projections inciting so much concern? Will the next scare be global temperature stagnation and the required policy action be to stop burning fossil fuels? (Note: 1970’s cooling was opined as being caused by burning fossil fuels, then global warming came along with the opposite effect but the same cure.)
Suspecting that the rest of this post would be similarly nonsensical, I did not read on.
Imagine my disappointment.

Brian H
April 1, 2012 11:51 am

Semi-OT;
But there are a few things about the Casey poem that didn’t ever track quite right for me. The big one is that Flynn, on first, couldn’t score on the long double by Blake. Rare and anomalous; maybe a great throw or relay home?
There are others, like Casey’s “hate” awaiting the third pitch. Of whom? Because of what?
Oh, well.
😉