In Andi Cockroft’s story yesterday Climate Science and Special Relativity he asked a prescient question:
For the general public that does not have an objective scientific bent, how do you tell virtual reality from the real thing?
Dr. Brown responded in comments, which was so well thought out, it benefits everyone by elevating it to full post status, and thus is presented below. Like The Skeptics Case, I highly recommend this one as a “must read”. – Anthony
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Guest post by Dr. Robert Brown, Duke University Physics Department
For the general public that does not have an objective scientific bent, how do you tell virtual reality from the real thing?
That’s a serious problem, actually. Hell, I have an objective scientific bent and I have plenty of trouble with it.
Ultimately, the stock answer is: We should believe the most what we can doubt the least, when we try to doubt very hard, using a mix of experience and consistent reason based on a network of experience-supported best (so far) beliefs.
That’s not very hopeful, but it is accurate. We believe Classical Non-Relativistic Mechanics after Newton invents it, not because it is true but because it works fairly consistently to describe Kepler’s purely observational laws, and (as it is tested) works damn well to describe a lot of quotidian experience as well on a scale less grand than planetary orbits. We encounter trouble with classical mechanics a few hundred years later when it fails to consistently describe blackbody radiation, the photoelectric effect (the one thing Einstein actually got the Nobel Prize for), the spectra of atoms, given Maxwell’s enormously successful addition to the equations of electricity and magnetism and the realization that light is an electromagnetic wave.
Planck, Lorentz, Einstein, Bohr, de Broglie, Schrodinger, Heisenberg and many others successively invent modifications that make space-time far more complex and interesting on the one hand — relativity theory — and mechanics itself far, far more complex than Newton could ever have dreamed. The changes were motivated, not by trying to be cool or win prizes, but by failures of the classical Euclidean theory to explain the data! Basically, Classical flat-space mechanics was doomed the day Maxwell first wrote out the correct-er equations of electrodynamics for the first time. We suddenly had the most amazing unified field theory, one that checked out empirically to phenomenal accuracy, and yet when we applied to cases where it almost had to work certain of its predictions failed spectacularly.
In fact, if Maxwell’s Equations and Newton’s Law were both true, the Universe itself should have existed for something far, far less than a second before collapsing in a massive heat death as stable atoms based on any sort of orbital model were impossible. Also, if Maxwell’s equations and flat spacetime with time an independent variable was correct, the laws of nature would not have had the invariance with respect to reference frame that Newtonian physics had up to that time enjoyed. In particular, moving a charged particle into a different inertial reference frame caused magnetic fields to appear, making it clear that the electric and magnetic fields were not actually vector forms! The entire geometry and tensor nature of space and time in Newtonian physics was all wrong.
This process continues today. Astronomer’s observe the rotational properties of distant galaxies to very high precision using the red shift and blue shift of the stars as they orbit the galactic center. The results don’t seem to agree with Newton’s Law of Gravitation (or for that matter, with Einstein’s equivalent theory of general relativity that views gravitation as curvature of spacetime. Careful studies of neutrinos lead to anomalies, places where theory isn’t consistent with observation. Precise measurements of the rates at which the Universe is expanding at very large length scales (and hence very long times ago, in succession as one looks farther away and back in time at distant galaxies) don’t quite add up to what the simplest theories predict and we expect. Quantum theory and general relativity are fundamentally inconsistent, but nobody knows quite how to make a theory that is “both” in the appropriate limits.
People then try to come up with bigger better theories, ones that explain everything that is well-explained with the old theories but that embrace the new observations and explain them as well. Ideally, the new theories predict new phenomena entirely and a careful search reveals it there where the theory predicts. And all along there are experiments — some of them fabulous and amazing — discovering high temperature superconductors, inventing lasers and masers, determining the properties of neutrinos (so elusive they are almost impossible to measure at all, yet a rather huge fraction of what is going on in the Universe). Some experiments yield results that are verified; others yield results — such as the several times that magnetic monopoles have been “observed” in experiments — that have not been reproducible and are probably spurious and incorrect. Neutrinos that might — even now — have gone faster than light, but again — probably not. A Higgs particle that seems to appear for a moment as a promising bump in an experimental curve and then fades away again, too elusive to be pinned down — so far. Dark matter and dark energy that might explain some of the unusual cosmological observations but a) are only one of several competing explanations; and b) that have yet to be directly observed. The “dark” bit basically means that they don’t interact at all with the electromagnetic field, making them nearly impossible to see — so far.
Physicists therefore usually know better than to believe the very stuff that they peddle. When I teach students introductory physics, I tell them up front — “Everything I’m going to teach you over the next two semesters is basically wrong — but it works, and works amazingly well, right up to where it doesn’t work and we have to find a better, broader explanation.” I also tell them not to believe anything I tell them because I’m telling them, and I’m the professor and therefore I know and its up to them to parrot me and believe it or else. I tell them quite the opposite. Believe me because what I teach you makes sense (is consistent), corresponds at least roughly with your own everyday experience, and because when you check it in the labs and by doing computations that can be compared to e.g. planetary observations, they seem to work. And believe me only with a grain of salt then — because further experiments and observations will eventually prove it all wrong.
That isn’t to say that we don’t believe some things very strongly. I’m a pretty firm believer in gravity, for example. Sure, it isn’t exactly right, or consistent with quantum theory at the smallest and perhaps largest of scales, but it works so very, very well in between and it is almost certainly at least approximately true, true enough in the right milieu. I’m very fond of Maxwell’s Equations and both classical and, in context, quantum theory, as they lead to this amazing description of things like atoms and molecules that is consistent and that works — up to a point — to describe nearly everything we see every day. And so on.
But if somebody were to argue that gravitation isn’t really a perfect force, and deviations at very long length scales are responsible for the observed anomalies in galactic rotation, I’d certainly listen. If the new theory still predicts the old results, explains the anomaly, I’d judge it to be quite possibly true. If it predicted something new and startling, something that was then observed (variations in near-Earth gravitation in the vicinity of Uranium mines, anomalies in the orbits of planets near black holes, unique dynamics in the galactic cores) then I might even promote it to more probably true than Newton’s Law of Gravitation, no matter how successful, simple, and appealing it is. In the end, it isn’t esthetics, it isn’t theoretic consistency, it isn’t empirical support, it is a sort of a blend of all three, something that relies heavily on common sense and human judgement and not so much on a formal rule that tells us truth.
Where does that leave one in the Great Climate Debate? Well, it damn well should leave you skeptical as all hell. I believe in the theory of relativity. Let me explain that — I really, really believe in the theory of relativity. I believe because it works; it explains all sorts of experimental stuff. I can run down a list of experimental observations that are explained by relativity that could scarcely be explained by anything else — factors of two in spin-orbit coupling constants, the tensor forms and invariants of electromagnetism, the observation of -mesons produced from cosmic ray collisions in the upper atmosphere far down near the surface of the Earth where they have no business being found given a lifetime of
microseconds — and observation I personally have made — and of course all the particle accelerators in the known Universe would fail miserably in their engineering if relativity weren’t at least approximately correct. Once you believe in relativity (because it works) it makes some very profound statements about causality, time ordering, and so on — things that might well make all the physics I think that I know inconsistent if it were found to be untrue.
Yet I was — and continue to be — at least willing to entertain the possibility that I might have to chuck the whole damn thing, wrong from top to bottom — all because a silly neutrino in Europe seems to be moving faster than it should ever be aver to move. Violations of causality, messages from the future, who knows what carnage such an observation (verified) might wreak! I’m properly skeptical because what we have observed — so far — works so very consistently, and the result itself seems to be solidly excluded by supernova data already in hand, but you know, my beliefs don’t dictate reality — it is rather the other way around.
The sad thing about the Great Climate Debate is that so far, there hasn’t really been a debate. The result is presented, but no one ever takes questions from the podium and is capable of defending their answers against a knowledgeable and skeptical questioner.
I can do that for all of my beliefs in physics — or at least, most of them — explain particular experiments that seem to verify my beliefs (as I do above). I’m quite capable of demonstrating their consistency both theoretically (with other physical laws and beliefs) and with experiment. I’m up front about where those beliefs fail, where they break down, where we do not know how things really work. Good science admits its limits, and never claims to be “settled” even as it does lead to defensible practice and engineering where it seems to work — for now.
Good science accepts limits on experimental precision. Hell, in physics we have to accept a completely non-classical limitation on experimental precision, one so profound that it sounds like a violation of simple logic to the uninitiated when they first try to understand it. But quite aside from Heisenberg, all experimental apparatus and all measurements are of limited precision, and the most honest answer for many things we might try to measure is “damfino” (damned if I know).
The Great Climate Debate, however, is predicated from the beginning on one things. We know what the global average temperature has been like for the past N years, where N is nearly anything you like. A century. A thousand years. A hundred thousand years. A hundred million years. Four billion years.
We don’t, of course. Not even close. Thermometers have only been around in even moderately reliable form for a bit over 300 years — 250 would be a fairer number — and records of global temperatures measured with even the first, highly inaccurate devices are sparse indeed until maybe 200 years ago. Most of the records from over sixty or seventy years ago are accurate to no more than a degree or two F (a degree C), and some of them are far less accurate than that. As Anthony has explicitly demonstrated, one can confound even a digital electronic automatic recording weather station thermometer capable of at least 0.01 degree resolution by the simple act of setting it up in a stupid place, such as the southwest side of a house right above a concrete driveway where the afternoon sun turns its location into a large reflector oven. Or in the case of early sea temperatures, by virtue of measuring pails of water pulled up from over the side with crude instruments in a driving wind cooling the still wet bulb pulled out of the pail.
In truth, we have moderately accurate thermal records that aren’t really global, but are at least sample a lot of the globe’s surface exclusive of the bulk of the ocean for less than one century. We have accurate records — really accurate records — of the Earth’s surface temperatures on a truly global basis for less than forty years. We have accurate records that include for the first time a glimpse of the thermal profile, in depth, of the ocean, that is less than a decade old and counting, and is (as Willis is pointing out) still highly uncertain no matter what silly precision is being claimed by the early analysts of the data. Even the satellite data — precise as it is, global as it is — is far from free from controversy, as the instrumentation itself in the several satellites that are making the measurements do not agree on the measured temperatures terribly precisely.
In the end, nobody really knows the global average temperature of the Earth’s surface in 2011 within less than around 1K. If anybody claims to, they are full of shit. Perhaps — and a big perhaps it is — they know it more precisely than this relative to a scheme that is used to compute it from global data that is at least consistent and not crazy — but it isn’t even clear that we can define the global average temperature in a way that really makes sense and that different instruments will measure the same way. It is also absolutely incredibly unlikely that our current measurements would in any meaningful way correspond to what the instrumentation of the 18th and 19th century measured and that is turned into global average temperatures, not within more than a degree or two.
This complicates things, given that a degree or two (K) appears to be very close to the natural range of variation of the global average temperature when one does one’s best to compute it from proxy records. Things get more complicated still when all of the best proxy reconstructions in the world get turned over and turned out in favor of “tree ring reconstructions” based upon — if not biased by — a few species of tree from a tiny handful of sites around the world.
The argument there is that tree rings are accurate thermometers. Of course they aren’t — even people in the business have confessed (in climategate letters, IIRC) that if they go into their own back yards and cut down trees and try to reconstruct the temperature of their own back yard based on the rings, it doesn’t work. Trees grow one year because your dog fertilizes them, fail to grow another not because it is cold but because it is dry, grow poorly in a perfect year because a fungus attacks the leaves. If one actually plots tree ring thicknesses over hundreds of years, although there is a very weak signal that might be thermal in nature, there is a hell of a lot of noise — and many, many parts of the world simply don’t have trees that survived to be sampled. Such as the 70% of the Earth’s surface that is covered by the ocean…
But the complication isn’t done yet — the twentieth century perhaps was a period of global warming — at least the period from roughly 1975 to the present where we have reasonably accurate records appears to have warmed a bit — but there were lots of things that made the 20th century, especially the latter half, unique. Two world wars, the invention and widespread use and testing of nuclear bombs that scattered radioactive aerosols throughout the stratosphere, unprecedented deforestation and last but far from least a stretch where the sun appeared to be far more active than it had been at any point in the direct observational record, and (via various radiometric proxies) quite possibly for over 10,000 years. It isn’t clear what normal conditions are for the climate — something that historically appears to be nearly perpetually in a state of at least slow change, warming gradually or cooling gradually, punctuated with periods where the heating or cooling is more abrupt (to the extent the various proxy reconstructions can be trusted as representative of truly global temperature averages) — but it is very clear indeed that the latter 19th through the 20th centuries were far from normal by the standards of the previous ten or twenty centuries.
Yet on top of all of this confounding phenomena — with inaccurate and imprecise thermal records in the era of measurements, far less accurate extrapolations of the measurement era using proxies, with at most 30-40 years of actually accurate and somewhat reproducible global thermal measurements, most of it drawn from the period of a Grand Solar Maximum — climatologists have claimed to find a clear signal of anthropogenic global warming caused strictly by human-produced carbon dioxide. They are — it is claimed — certain that no other phenomena could be the proximate cause of the warming. They are certain when they predict that this warming will continue until a global catastrophe occurs that will kill billions of people unless we act in certain ways now to prevent it.
I’m not certain relativity is correct, but they are certain that catastrophic anthropogenic global warming is a true hypothesis with precise predictions and conclusions. I have learned to doubt numerical simulations that I myself have written that are doing simple, easily understandable things that directly capture certain parts of physics. They are doing far, far more complex numerical simulations — the correct theoretical answer, recall, is a solution to a set of coupled non-Markovian Navier-Stokes equation with a variable external driver and still unknown feedbacks in a chaotic regime with known important variability on multiple decadal or longer timescales — and yet they are certain that their results are correct, given the thirty plus years of accurate global thermal data (plus all of the longer timescale reconstructions or estimates they can produce from the common pool of old data, with all of its uncertainties).
Look, here’s how you can tell — to get back to your question. You compare the predictions of their “catastrophic” theory five, ten, twenty years back to the actual data. If there is good agreement, it is at least possible that they are correct. The greater the deviation between observed reality and their predictions, the more likely it is that their result is at least incorrect if not actual bullshit. That’s all. Accurately predicting the future isn’t proof that they are right, but failing to predict it is pretty strong evidence that they are wrong.
Such a comparison fails. It actually fails way back in the twentieth century, where it fails to predict or explain the cooling from 1945 to roughly 1965-1970. It fails to predict the little ice age. It fails to predict the medieval climate optimum, or the other periods in the last 10,000 years where the proxy record seems to indicate that the world was as warm or warmer than it is today. But even ignoring that — which we can, because those proxy reconstructions are just as doubtful in their own way as the tree-ring reconstructions, with or without a side-serving of confirmation bias to go with your fries — even ignoring that, it fails to explain the 33 or so years of the satellite record, the only arguably reliable measure of actual global temperatures humans have ever made. For the last third of that period, there has been no statistically significant increase in temperature, and it may even be that the temperature has decreased a bit from a 1998 peak. January of 2012 was nearly 0.1C below the 33 year baseline.
This behavior is explainable and understandable, but not in terms of their models, which predicted that the temperature would be considerably warmer, on average, than it appears to be, back when they were predicting the future we are now living. This is evidence that those models are probably wrong, that some of the variables that they have ignored in their theories are important, that some of the equations they have used have incorrect parameters, incorrect feedbacks. How wrong remains to be seen — if global temperatures actually decline for a few years (and stretch out the period with no increase still further in the process) — it could be that their entire model is fundamentally wrong, badly wrong. Or it could be that their models are partially right but had some of the parameters or physics wrong. Or it could even be that the models are completely correct, but neglected confounding things are temporarily masking the ongoing warming that will soon come roaring back with a catastrophic vengeance.
The latter is the story that is being widely told, to keep people from losing faith in a theory that isn’t working — so far — the way that it should. And I have only one objection to that. Keep your hands off of my money while the theory is still unproven and not in terribly good agreement with reality!
Well, I have other objections as well — open up the debate, acknowledge the uncertainties, welcome contradictory theories, stop believing in a set of theoretical results as if climate science is some sort of religion… but we can start with shit-canning the IPCC and the entire complex arrangement of “remedies” to a problem that may well be completely ignorable and utterly destined to take care of itself long before it ever becomes a real problem.
No matter what, we will be producing far less CO_2 in 30 years than we are today. Sheer economics and the advance of physics and technology and engineering will make fossil-fuel burning electrical generators as obsolete as steam trains. Long before we reach any sort of catastrophe — assuming that CAGW is correct — the supposed proximate cause of the catastrophe will be reversing itself without anyone doing anything special to bring it about but make sensible economic choices.
In the meantime, it would be so lovely if we could lose one single phrase in the “debate”. The CAGW theory is not “settled science”. I’m not even sure there is any such thing.
They changed terminology when they realised global warming was grinding to a halt. Just a PR exercise really.
I don’t think you will find many who disagree. It’s just that it has done most of the warming that it can (by itself) already. The argument is about feedbacks / sensitivity. So far the temperature projections made in the 1980s has failed to match observations.
Robert Brown,
You were saying that Solar Energy has a promising future – “Solar simply hasn’t yet come into its own, but IMO its arrival is at this point inevitable”. You then go on to talk about falling costs over time. Cost is not the issue with solar.
Let us look at some numbers. Macquarie Generation is an Australian power company that has on its web site some details about its solar power generation. Australia did pioneer the use of solar power after all. The relevant web page is here;
http://www.macgen.com.au/Generation-Portfolio/Renewable-Energy.aspx
Now, on that page has the follow quote;
“The original pilot mirror array has been expanded to cover an area of 18,000 square metres or approximately 3 football fields, with over 500 mirror panels, each 12 metres by 2 metres. The project can produce enough renewable energy for over 500 homes annually.”
Let’s do some math not related to costs.
18,000 square metres (hereafter 18 km2) to produce power for 500 homes (when the sun shines). How many households in the USA? Lets say 100 million. Now at 18 km2 per 500 homes, that means you will need 18 * (100m / 500) = 3.6m km2 of solar panels to power the US. But it does not stop there. In Australia, household power use is about one third of the total usage. Assuming the same proportions of power usage for the US, we now need 3.6m km2 x 3 = 10.8m km2 under glass. However, the US only has about 9.8m km2 to use, so I guess you will just have borrow some land from Canada, not to mention food as you won’t be able to grow any of your own.
Hell of a glass bill when the first hail storm hits …
Well, I suppose someone can claim that we are doing an UNcontrolled experiment on the atmosphere by dumping extra CO2 into it. But it will be impossible to extract a conclusion when you cannot control for the other variables, variables for which we also have no firm causative evidence of effect.
Tim Folkerts says:
March 2, 2012 at 9:17 am
…………………
“Conversely, anyone who claims that CO2 is irrelevant is also a fool and is also displaying a “lack of humility before nature”. Nature clearly shows us that CO2′s IR properties have an impact (both through theory and through experiments). The lack of humility that says “I, with my freshman physics class, am right and the rest of science is wrong” is also staggering. “Settled science” is not likely to be overturned by blog posts and garage experiments. CO2 DOES warm the earth….. ”
Tim, did you get 100% on all your tests? No?
Then you COULD be wrong. Keep that in mind.
Try this: http://drtimball.com/2012/co2-is-not-a-greenhouse-gas-that-raises-global-temperature-period/
Thanks, Dr Brown. I agree mostly, but I’m not at all impressed w/solar power. As Bart & others said, energy-density is the major consideration & electric-generation from solar fails on that count. No getting around it. Nukes are the solution — the nuclear waste, “meltdown” & proliferation issues already have engineered solutions. Political will (& even education) is what’s lacking (China, Russia & India are exceptions).
Like the introduction to the “Six-million dollar Man” TV show said — “We HAVE the technology….”
Jimbo says:
March 3, 2012 at 5:19 am
Tim Folkerts says:
March 2, 2012 at 9:17 am
…………………
Conversely, anyone who claims that CO2 is irrelevant is also a fool and is also displaying a “lack of humility before nature”. Nature clearly shows us that CO2′s IR properties have an impact (both through theory and through experiments). The lack of humility that says “I, with my freshman physics class, am right and the rest of science is wrong” is also staggering. “Settled science” is not likely to be overturned by blog posts and garage experiments. CO2 DOES warm the earth.
I don’t think you will find many who disagree. It’s just that it has done most of the warming that it can (by itself) already. The argument is about feedbacks / sensitivity. So far the temperature projections made in the 1980s has failed to match observations.
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Carbon dioxide is fully part of the Water Cycle, this brings down temps from 67°C the Earth would be with our atmosphere but without water, think deserts. All pure clean rain is carbonic acid. Carbon dioxide is part of the cooling of the atmosphere, not warming.
And even then it’s insignificant. It’s main purpose to come back into the Carbon Life Cycle.
The “lack of humility before nature” isn’t with the real sceptics, it with the junk science fictional fisics of the warmists and warmists masquerading as sceptics.
You’ve missed out the whole of the Water Cycle from your comic cartoon energy budget!
Who are the real fools here?
A really great ‘answer’ assessing the climate science of today. Dr. Brown understands what science is about, what its limitations are, and sums up the great uncertainties better than I have ever seen.
I continually mumbled to myself, “I wish I had said that.” No single thing he said is new, but all he said was true – especially when he said, “None of us knows,” in one way or another.
And is anything we skeptics argue more true than the acknowledgement that ,”None of us knows”?
We are simply saying that when they say they DO know, we are agreeing with Dr. Brown when he says “In the end, nobody really knows the global average temperature of the Earth’s surface in 2011 within less than around 1K. If anybody claims to, they are full of shit.”
On a scale of 1 to 10, I give him an 11.
Steve Garcia
Truthseeker says:
March 3, 2012 at 5:30 am
Although I also don’t share Dr. Brown’s enthusiasm for Solar, you need to check your work before hitting the Post button. “18,000 square metres (hereafter 18 km2)”?
Lucy Skywalker says: “though I might word a tad less abruptly.”
Thank you Lucy Skywalker, you really do spoil us with your posts and writing here. (-:
Robert Brown says:
March 2, 2012 at 2:34 pm
[…]
I was quoting prices out of an online shop that will sell you a grid-tie system now for that. Grid tie requires and inverter and regulator and a rooftop full of cells. Batteries are where things get expensive. But with grid tie you “store” in the grid, using the power you delivered during by day back for free again at night.
Thank you for your recent input to WUWT, I apreciate your clear expositions. Regarding your reference to grid-tie solar systems, the ‘storage’ is not free. My local electric company sells at 8¢/KWh, but buys at 4¢/KWh for what you don’t use. So, in the off-hours any extra I produce is used at 4¢/KWh. My solar system will pay for itself about 2060, assuming no increase in cloud cover, no deterioration in output, no maintenance over 50 years, and if I don’t include my backhoe work for the foundation.
Michel says:
March 3, 2012 at 3:55 am
Thanks for the citation, Michel, but you are wrong about the line-by-line analysis. That paper reports results from three models, a narrow-band model (NBM), a broad-band model (BBM), and a line-by-line model (LBL). Historically, the line-by-like model was considered the gold standard. It gave an answer of 4.4W/m2 for a doubling of CO2.
Myhre makes the claim that the LBL model is not as accurate as the NBM and the BBM. As near as I can tell this is based on nothing more than the general agreement between the narrow-band and the broad-band models, which seems like a poor basis for a choice.
So, he uses the average of the NBM and BBM to give a value of 3.7W/m2 for a doubling … and then claims that his answer is accurate to ± 0.04W/m2 …
For me, that’s generally a “tell”, a mark of bad science. If you say your answer is better than the old answer, unless you have good theoretical or observational reasons to make that claim, it seems like the uncertainty will be at least the difference between the new and old answers … and their claiming accuracy to within 0.04W/m2 is just a joke.
Much appreciated,
w.
Michel says:
March 3, 2012 at 3:55 am (Edit)
Michel, that is an interesting analysis … but a single shell model like you have used cannot represent the earth. The problem is losses, both sensible and latent heat losses. These add up to about 100 W/m2. If you include those in your model, you’ll see that the greenhouse effect in a single shell model doesn’t concentrate enough energy to both allow for losses and still represent the earth’s temperature.
As a result, the simplest model that can represent the Earth has to have two physically separated shells … see my post on The Steel Greenhouse for the calculations.
w.
Dr. Brown, that was a good essay.
I also appreciate your comments about solar power. Right now, solar power is good enough that many people who use air-conditioning, and many municipalities that struggle to meet peak daytime consumption, can profit from installing PV panels. However, each person (such as Steve Keohane at 8:52 on March 3) needs to do the computations with actual prices, actual electricity consumption, and so on. For myself, my electricity bill is so low that I would never come close to paying back the initial investment, but my local utility can meet peak capacity a little more cheaply with solar than with alternatives. Something like Moore’s law seems to apply, not just to the pv cells, but to every step in the manufacturing and distribution and installation process. On hot days (we get up to 100+), my wife and I ventilate the house at night, but our neighbors spend $$$/month for air conditioning. I think they are close to where they would profit from installing PV panels, unless they choose instead to cut their A/C; when the local utility gets to full demand-weighted billing for electricity, the case for them to buy a roof-mounted system will improve, again assuming that they continue to value the A/C. Global arguments for an against PV are not worth very much, only calculations specific to actual prices and actual use in particular places can be informative. Price/performance ratios are improving dramatically.
David A. Evans said @ur momisugly March 3, 2012 at 2:21 am
MTBF of gas cylinders is determined by the accumulation of stress fractures in relatively thin steel that is subject to considerable variations in stress. I don’t think either of us know what material such a flywheel might be made from and it’s entirely possible that variations in stress within such an object might be less than in an LPG cylinder. In any event, prudence dictates that one replace such items before they fail, much as the Git replaces his hard disks before they fail.
The Git is reminded here of his physics lecturer at LatrobeU back in 1969. He demonstrated to us the rather lovely effects of polarised light transmitted through a liquid crystal and announced that it would never have any commercially useful purpose. The very same lecturer also told us that the upper limit for the size of a television screen was about 800mm due to the necessity to cater for the depth created by the electron gun and that in turn placed a limit determined by standard door widths. The Git’s scepticism of both these claims was met with derision by said lecturer.
Tim Folkerts says:
March 2, 2012 at 3:32 pm
“Again, the values of 3.7 W/m^2 and 1 C are open to refinement, but they are definitely not identically equal to zero.”
I agree that there is a definite impact, which will manifest itself in some alteration of interrelated climate variables, but it is not necessarily true that the effect will be manifested in these particular variables.
It all depends on the nature of the feedbacks. Internal model feedbacks are known to entirely cancel out the effect of disturbances in output variables. The most widespread use of internal model feedback in industrial and commercial products is with the introduction of integral feedback via the ubiquitous PID feedback controller. This type of feedback entirely cancels the effect of a constant disturbance to the output.
Adaptive controllers can be constructed with feedback elements which converge to an appropriate internal model to zero out the effect of a wide variety of disturbances. Emergent systems can naturally evolve to such a feedback configuration.
One should take nothing for granted in nature.
Septic Matthew/Matthew R Marler said @ur momisugly March 3, 2012 at 10:54 am
Some believe that solutions need to be tailored to the needs of the consumer. The contrary belief is that the consumer needs to be tailored to meet the needs of the solution.
Willis Eschenbach: In the first analysis, I show that levelized costs for natural gas are about 7¢ per kwh, and solar are about 22¢ per kwh. Of this, about 6¢ is cost of the solar cells. Even if they were free, that would still put solar at more than twice the cost of natural gas … and you still have to build the natural gas plant.
Based on recent announcements, which I think I posted here, I calculated the costs of electricity from current PV cells in a neighborhood like mine at $0.09/kwh for small installations, and $0.06/kwh for large installations, based on non-subsidized prices. I update these calculations from time to time. New gas-fired facilities to provide power during peak demand are closer to $0.25/kwh, so for new installations to meet peak demand in hot, dry climates with cool and breezy nights, PV cells are now cost-competitive. Also note that, for new PV installations to meet peak demand, it is not necessary to construct new backup generators, and the new PV panels can extend the life of the gas-fired generators already in place. My calculations assume the PV panels put out at least 80% of max power for at least 8 hours per day for at least 300 days per year for at least 30 years. PV power can also run a heat pump in winter, thus saving on the heating bill, but not yet enough to recoup the investment. For a new house going up in this area, it would be worth looking into a solar-powered heat pump instead of a furnace-A/C combo.
This is for a stand-alone house with much insolation and much shade (my neighbor has much less shade.) When I lived in a condominium near Del Mar I paid for neither heating nor A/C, so even within a fairly small geographic area the economics are dramatically different. It will be a long time before PV power is reasonable for most of Del Mar. When summer comes, peak power will cost consumers here something like $0.35/kwh — I’ll update this when summer actually arrives.
A great article by Dr Robert Brown, thank you.
LazyTeenager March 2, 2012 at 4:38 pm Said: (brackets my comment)
“….highly ingenious but (perhaps not necessarily?) wrong counter arguments, …a quick thinker, …a charismatic speaker and proficient at manipulating people, then you would lose the debate…”
Lazy, you all seem to have perhaps been awfully unlucky to repeatedly run into so many of such people, perhaps it is time for you to reconsider whether or not YOU are actually correct?
LazyTeenager: March 2, 2012 at 5:01 pm
Said: “The science is settled in this context means the science is sufficiently well known to take action”.
Therein lies a problem. It is very clear the actual science of the matter is nowhere near settled (I’m sure you can’t honestly disagree).
And it is also very clear the understanding of the economics has a long way to go. In short, it is quite clear what effect making a lot of poor people poorer, and substantially raising the cost of their energy will have on people in countries like Ukraine and Belarus if they suffer more extended cold periods like the ones they have just experienced.
They die.
Solar could not possible help, and in those still freezing days of minus 20 C , there is no significant wind either.
William D. Nordhaus (Professor of Economics!) wrote a “rebuttal” of climate skeptic claims:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/mar/22/why-global-warming-skeptics-are-wrong/
Enough said about his qualifications re the scientific aspects: It really just ends up being an excuse for action, his main message is clearly – “we don’t know enough about the science or the economics, but we’d better do something NOW, just in case”
Some direct quotes:
….One might argue that there are many uncertainties here, and we should wait until the uncertainties are resolved. Yes, there are many uncertainties. That does not imply that action should be delayed.
Indeed, my experience in studying this subject for many years is that we have discovered more puzzles and greater uncertainties as researchers dig deeper into the field. ……..
…… Moreover, our economic models have great difficulties incorporating these major geophysical changes and their impacts in a reliable manner. ….
….. Policies implemented today serve as a hedge against unsuspected future dangers”
I fear we must take great care lest the so called ‘cure’ is worse than the possible ‘disease’.
LazyTeenager has been in for a bit of “Schtick” here lately – and (IMO) quite rightly so as on March 2, 2012 at 5:01 pm LazyTeenager says:
“————. In fact many on WUWT relentlessly ridicule climate scientists for continuing to improve their understanding.
The science is settled in this context means the science is sufficiently well known to take action.
For example let’s consider the electric dynamo. —————-. The understanding of dynamos was imperfect but the understanding of dynamos was sufficiently settled to take action.
Similarly the greenhouse effect is understood like a crude dynamo. It’s settled that a crude dynamo produces electricity and it’s also settled that the green house effect warms the atmosphere and affects the climate.
If you don’t like dynamos you can debate as much as you like about whether they really do produce electricity, whether they violate the phlogiston theory, whether they produce ———.
Dynamos still produce electricity. Period!”
==========
As we are – here on WUWT – mainly discussing the science that says that CO2 is a greenhouse gas (GHG) which absorbs “Heat-energy” (HE) which is emitted as electromagnetic (EM) waves of certain frequencies from the Surface – I, for one, keep on asking questions as to why they are constantly ignoring the “Blindingly Obvious”.
I try many different ways of formulating my questions but I hope that is not the same as ridiculing anybody.
You cannot really compare what is – and was, “known” about a direct current (DC) electric dynamo, a knowledge that made possible a “dynamo-evolution” into AC generators possible, – with climate science.
Climate Science is stuck in the wrong groove because CAGW scientists (Warmistas) and AGW scientists (lukewarmers) all “believe” IMHO in the unbelievable.
Once upon a time – or a few years ago – I thought scientists who were “Climate Skeptics” knew darned well that heat cannot possibly be transported on EM waves as all the evidence shows that heat is only transported by conduction and convection.
EM radiation as a transport system for energy and light and loses very little of its cargo as it moves along at the rate of light speed.
The “Skeptics” were my “Climate Heroes” for standing up against the “Warmistas” and their “undefendable” science of Arrhenius which, by the way, was “disproved” by scientists during my elementary schooldays (1947 – 1954). – But, how wrong was I? – They believe in the same “science” – but disagree about the “Feed-backs”
How long is that piece of string again? –
Even if mathematically correct any models can only be as useful as their input allows them to be, and the input can only be “hoped” to be correct if the science it is based upon is correct. – Wrong assumptions do not cut it!
The CAGW/AGW theory is, as far as I can understand, based upon the assumption that heat can somehow be retained or maintained by the surface at the same time as it is being emitted into the atmosphere as IR light or “heat-energy”. –
The Sun is, of course – it is not a lie – supplying the surface with light & energy 24/7, which – if you think about it, makes the theory quite workable, i.e. the Sun raises the surface T to 255 K. – Then while long wave IR emissions OUT is going on – Solar short wave radiation IN is topping up the surface’s energy – or temperature – ?!!?
So then, – when one half of the previously emitted surface energy returns – Hi presto! – The surface’s “Heat-energy” content is raised, thus temperature is also raised by “The Natural Greenhouse Effect” (NGHE) by a lovely 33 K, or 33 deg. Celsius (°C) making the planet suitable for life as we know it.
Who can complain about that?
Trouble is that if we bring the Earth out of the “mathematical models” and back into The Solar System where it belongs – we find that The Sun shines on just one half of the Earth’s surface at any one time. The Sun does not rise in the morning, nor does it “set” in the evening. Instead the Earth rotates around its own axis, below – or at the side of – the Sun in such a way that in every 24 hour period 50 % of the surface is irradiated 50 % is not.
!00% of the surface emit IR light 100% of the time (or all the time if you like)
If you understand the above, you will also understand that the surface presents itself to the Sun’s irradiation with an forever changing rate of absorption, i.e. land follows sea follows different colours follow ——. You think up any differences – and they will probably be there.
That means it is impossible for us mere mortals to predict the present snippet of the climate which we call weather unless we can watch the air movements; “every second of their way”
O H Dahlsveen says:
March 3, 2012 at 12:37 pm
Climate Science is stuck in the wrong groove because CAGW scientists (Warmistas) and AGW scientists (lukewarmers) all “believe” IMHO in the unbelievable.
Once upon a time – or a few years ago – I thought scientists who were “Climate Skeptics” knew darned well that heat cannot possibly be transported on EM waves as all the evidence shows that heat is only transported by conduction and convection.
EM radiation as a transport system for energy and light and loses very little of its cargo as it moves along at the rate of light speed.
=================
The heat direct from the Sun is the Sun’s thermal energy on the move, that is, the Sun’s heat on the move, the Sun radiates HEAT. It reaches us us at the speed of electromagnetic waves.. It is the invisible thermal infrared.
The comic cartoon energy budget of KT97 and tweaks, says this heat doesn’t reach the Earth’s surface!
Wakey, wakey! The heat we feel from the Sun is the Sun’s heat, we’re at the surface!
Heat is transferred by conduction, convection and radiation. You can create a different fisics if you want, but it won’t be real world physics which knows the difference between Heat and Light.
The AGW comic cartoon energy budget says that shortwave, shortwave!, heats the Earth’s land and oceans.
So, they claim the Sun’s actual heat doesn’t heat the Earth and the Sun’s light which isn’t actually capable of doing so, does. Visible light heating land and oceans! Nuts.
All completely and utterly bonkers.
Thanks, Dr. Brown. A great essay.