Why CAGW theory is not “settled science”

In Andi Cockroft’s story yesterday Climate Science and Special Relativity he asked a prescient question:

For the general public that does not have an objective scientific bent, how do you tell virtual reality from the real thing?

Dr. Brown responded in comments, which was so well thought out, it benefits everyone by elevating it to full post status, and thus is presented below. Like The Skeptics Case, I highly recommend this one as a “must read”. – Anthony

=========================================================

Guest post by Dr. Robert Brown, Duke University Physics Department

For the general public that does not have an objective scientific bent, how do you tell virtual reality from the real thing?

That’s a serious problem, actually. Hell, I have an objective scientific bent and I have plenty of trouble with it.

Ultimately, the stock answer is: We should believe the most what we can doubt the least, when we try to doubt very hard, using a mix of experience and consistent reason based on a network of experience-supported best (so far) beliefs.

That’s not very hopeful, but it is accurate. We believe Classical Non-Relativistic Mechanics after Newton invents it, not because it is true but because it works fairly consistently to describe Kepler’s purely observational laws, and (as it is tested) works damn well to describe a lot of quotidian experience as well on a scale less grand than planetary orbits. We encounter trouble with classical mechanics a few hundred years later when it fails to consistently describe blackbody radiation, the photoelectric effect (the one thing Einstein actually got the Nobel Prize for), the spectra of atoms, given Maxwell’s enormously successful addition to the equations of electricity and magnetism and the realization that light is an electromagnetic wave.

Planck, Lorentz, Einstein, Bohr, de Broglie, Schrodinger, Heisenberg and many others successively invent modifications that make space-time far more complex and interesting on the one hand — relativity theory — and mechanics itself far, far more complex than Newton could ever have dreamed. The changes were motivated, not by trying to be cool or win prizes, but by failures of the classical Euclidean theory to explain the data! Basically, Classical flat-space mechanics was doomed the day Maxwell first wrote out the correct-er equations of electrodynamics for the first time. We suddenly had the most amazing unified field theory, one that checked out empirically to phenomenal accuracy, and yet when we applied to cases where it almost had to work certain of its predictions failed spectacularly.

In fact, if Maxwell’s Equations and Newton’s Law were both true, the Universe itself should have existed for something far, far less than a second before collapsing in a massive heat death as stable atoms based on any sort of orbital model were impossible. Also, if Maxwell’s equations and flat spacetime with time an independent variable was correct, the laws of nature would not have had the invariance with respect to reference frame that Newtonian physics had up to that time enjoyed. In particular, moving a charged particle into a different inertial reference frame caused magnetic fields to appear, making it clear that the electric and magnetic fields were not actually vector forms! The entire geometry and tensor nature of space and time in Newtonian physics was all wrong.

This process continues today. Astronomer’s observe the rotational properties of distant galaxies to very high precision using the red shift and blue shift of the stars as they orbit the galactic center. The results don’t seem to agree with Newton’s Law of Gravitation (or for that matter, with Einstein’s equivalent theory of general relativity that views gravitation as curvature of spacetime. Careful studies of neutrinos lead to anomalies, places where theory isn’t consistent with observation. Precise measurements of the rates at which the Universe is expanding at very large length scales (and hence very long times ago, in succession as one looks farther away and back in time at distant galaxies) don’t quite add up to what the simplest theories predict and we expect. Quantum theory and general relativity are fundamentally inconsistent, but nobody knows quite how to make a theory that is “both” in the appropriate limits.

People then try to come up with bigger better theories, ones that explain everything that is well-explained with the old theories but that embrace the new observations and explain them as well. Ideally, the new theories predict new phenomena entirely and a careful search reveals it there where the theory predicts. And all along there are experiments — some of them fabulous and amazing — discovering high temperature superconductors, inventing lasers and masers, determining the properties of neutrinos (so elusive they are almost impossible to measure at all, yet a rather huge fraction of what is going on in the Universe). Some experiments yield results that are verified; others yield results — such as the several times that magnetic monopoles have been “observed” in experiments — that have not been reproducible and are probably spurious and incorrect. Neutrinos that might — even now — have gone faster than light, but again — probably not. A Higgs particle that seems to appear for a moment as a promising bump in an experimental curve and then fades away again, too elusive to be pinned down — so far. Dark matter and dark energy that might explain some of the unusual cosmological observations but a) are only one of several competing explanations; and b) that have yet to be directly observed. The “dark” bit basically means that they don’t interact at all with the electromagnetic field, making them nearly impossible to see — so far.

Physicists therefore usually know better than to believe the very stuff that they peddle. When I teach students introductory physics, I tell them up front — “Everything I’m going to teach you over the next two semesters is basically wrong — but it works, and works amazingly well, right up to where it doesn’t work and we have to find a better, broader explanation.” I also tell them not to believe anything I tell them because I’m telling them, and I’m the professor and therefore I know and its up to them to parrot me and believe it or else. I tell them quite the opposite. Believe me because what I teach you makes sense (is consistent), corresponds at least roughly with your own everyday experience, and because when you check it in the labs and by doing computations that can be compared to e.g. planetary observations, they seem to work. And believe me only with a grain of salt then — because further experiments and observations will eventually prove it all wrong.

That isn’t to say that we don’t believe some things very strongly. I’m a pretty firm believer in gravity, for example. Sure, it isn’t exactly right, or consistent with quantum theory at the smallest and perhaps largest of scales, but it works so very, very well in between and it is almost certainly at least approximately true, true enough in the right milieu. I’m very fond of Maxwell’s Equations and both classical and, in context, quantum theory, as they lead to this amazing description of things like atoms and molecules that is consistent and that works — up to a point — to describe nearly everything we see every day. And so on.

But if somebody were to argue that gravitation isn’t really a perfect 1/r^2 force, and deviations at very long length scales are responsible for the observed anomalies in galactic rotation, I’d certainly listen. If the new theory still predicts the old results, explains the anomaly, I’d judge it to be quite possibly true. If it predicted something new and startling, something that was then observed (variations in near-Earth gravitation in the vicinity of Uranium mines, anomalies in the orbits of planets near black holes, unique dynamics in the galactic cores) then I might even promote it to more probably true than Newton’s Law of Gravitation, no matter how successful, simple, and appealing it is. In the end, it isn’t esthetics, it isn’t theoretic consistency, it isn’t empirical support, it is a sort of a blend of all three, something that relies heavily on common sense and human judgement and not so much on a formal rule that tells us truth.

Where does that leave one in the Great Climate Debate? Well, it damn well should leave you skeptical as all hell. I believe in the theory of relativity. Let me explain that — I really, really believe in the theory of relativity. I believe because it works; it explains all sorts of experimental stuff. I can run down a list of experimental observations that are explained by relativity that could scarcely be explained by anything else — factors of two in spin-orbit coupling constants, the tensor forms and invariants of electromagnetism, the observation of \mu-mesons produced from cosmic ray collisions in the upper atmosphere far down near the surface of the Earth where they have no business being found given a lifetime of \sim 2 microseconds — and observation I personally have made — and of course all the particle accelerators in the known Universe would fail miserably in their engineering if relativity weren’t at least approximately correct. Once you believe in relativity (because it works) it makes some very profound statements about causality, time ordering, and so on — things that might well make all the physics I think that I know inconsistent if it were found to be untrue.

Yet I was — and continue to be — at least willing to entertain the possibility that I might have to chuck the whole damn thing, wrong from top to bottom — all because a silly neutrino in Europe seems to be moving faster than it should ever be aver to move. Violations of causality, messages from the future, who knows what carnage such an observation (verified) might wreak! I’m properly skeptical because what we have observed — so far — works so very consistently, and the result itself seems to be solidly excluded by supernova data already in hand, but you know, my beliefs don’t dictate reality — it is rather the other way around.

The sad thing about the Great Climate Debate is that so far, there hasn’t really been a debate. The result is presented, but no one ever takes questions from the podium and is capable of defending their answers against a knowledgeable and skeptical questioner.

I can do that for all of my beliefs in physics — or at least, most of them — explain particular experiments that seem to verify my beliefs (as I do above). I’m quite capable of demonstrating their consistency both theoretically (with other physical laws and beliefs) and with experiment. I’m up front about where those beliefs fail, where they break down, where we do not know how things really work. Good science admits its limits, and never claims to be “settled” even as it does lead to defensible practice and engineering where it seems to work — for now.

Good science accepts limits on experimental precision. Hell, in physics we have to accept a completely non-classical limitation on experimental precision, one so profound that it sounds like a violation of simple logic to the uninitiated when they first try to understand it. But quite aside from Heisenberg, all experimental apparatus and all measurements are of limited precision, and the most honest answer for many things we might try to measure is “damfino” (damned if I know).

The Great Climate Debate, however, is predicated from the beginning on one things. We know what the global average temperature has been like for the past N years, where N is nearly anything you like. A century. A thousand years. A hundred thousand years. A hundred million years. Four billion years.

We don’t, of course. Not even close. Thermometers have only been around in even moderately reliable form for a bit over 300 years — 250 would be a fairer number — and records of global temperatures measured with even the first, highly inaccurate devices are sparse indeed until maybe 200 years ago. Most of the records from over sixty or seventy years ago are accurate to no more than a degree or two F (a degree C), and some of them are far less accurate than that. As Anthony has explicitly demonstrated, one can confound even a digital electronic automatic recording weather station thermometer capable of at least 0.01 degree resolution by the simple act of setting it up in a stupid place, such as the southwest side of a house right above a concrete driveway where the afternoon sun turns its location into a large reflector oven. Or in the case of early sea temperatures, by virtue of measuring pails of water pulled up from over the side with crude instruments in a driving wind cooling the still wet bulb pulled out of the pail.

In truth, we have moderately accurate thermal records that aren’t really global, but are at least sample a lot of the globe’s surface exclusive of the bulk of the ocean for less than one century. We have accurate records — really accurate records — of the Earth’s surface temperatures on a truly global basis for less than forty years. We have accurate records that include for the first time a glimpse of the thermal profile, in depth, of the ocean, that is less than a decade old and counting, and is (as Willis is pointing out) still highly uncertain no matter what silly precision is being claimed by the early analysts of the data. Even the satellite data — precise as it is, global as it is — is far from free from controversy, as the instrumentation itself in the several satellites that are making the measurements do not agree on the measured temperatures terribly precisely.

In the end, nobody really knows the global average temperature of the Earth’s surface in 2011 within less than around 1K. If anybody claims to, they are full of shit. Perhaps — and a big perhaps it is — they know it more precisely than this relative to a scheme that is used to compute it from global data that is at least consistent and not crazy — but it isn’t even clear that we can define the global average temperature in a way that really makes sense and that different instruments will measure the same way. It is also absolutely incredibly unlikely that our current measurements would in any meaningful way correspond to what the instrumentation of the 18th and 19th century measured and that is turned into global average temperatures, not within more than a degree or two.

This complicates things, given that a degree or two (K) appears to be very close to the natural range of variation of the global average temperature when one does one’s best to compute it from proxy records. Things get more complicated still when all of the best proxy reconstructions in the world get turned over and turned out in favor of “tree ring reconstructions” based upon — if not biased by — a few species of tree from a tiny handful of sites around the world.

The argument there is that tree rings are accurate thermometers. Of course they aren’t — even people in the business have confessed (in climategate letters, IIRC) that if they go into their own back yards and cut down trees and try to reconstruct the temperature of their own back yard based on the rings, it doesn’t work. Trees grow one year because your dog fertilizes them, fail to grow another not because it is cold but because it is dry, grow poorly in a perfect year because a fungus attacks the leaves. If one actually plots tree ring thicknesses over hundreds of years, although there is a very weak signal that might be thermal in nature, there is a hell of a lot of noise — and many, many parts of the world simply don’t have trees that survived to be sampled. Such as the 70% of the Earth’s surface that is covered by the ocean…

But the complication isn’t done yet — the twentieth century perhaps was a period of global warming — at least the period from roughly 1975 to the present where we have reasonably accurate records appears to have warmed a bit — but there were lots of things that made the 20th century, especially the latter half, unique. Two world wars, the invention and widespread use and testing of nuclear bombs that scattered radioactive aerosols throughout the stratosphere, unprecedented deforestation and last but far from least a stretch where the sun appeared to be far more active than it had been at any point in the direct observational record, and (via various radiometric proxies) quite possibly for over 10,000 years. It isn’t clear what normal conditions are for the climate — something that historically appears to be nearly perpetually in a state of at least slow change, warming gradually or cooling gradually, punctuated with periods where the heating or cooling is more abrupt (to the extent the various proxy reconstructions can be trusted as representative of truly global temperature averages) — but it is very clear indeed that the latter 19th through the 20th centuries were far from normal by the standards of the previous ten or twenty centuries.

Yet on top of all of this confounding phenomena — with inaccurate and imprecise thermal records in the era of measurements, far less accurate extrapolations of the measurement era using proxies, with at most 30-40 years of actually accurate and somewhat reproducible global thermal measurements, most of it drawn from the period of a Grand Solar Maximum — climatologists have claimed to find a clear signal of anthropogenic global warming caused strictly by human-produced carbon dioxide. They are — it is claimed — certain that no other phenomena could be the proximate cause of the warming. They are certain when they predict that this warming will continue until a global catastrophe occurs that will kill billions of people unless we act in certain ways now to prevent it.

I’m not certain relativity is correct, but they are certain that catastrophic anthropogenic global warming is a true hypothesis with precise predictions and conclusions. I have learned to doubt numerical simulations that I myself have written that are doing simple, easily understandable things that directly capture certain parts of physics. They are doing far, far more complex numerical simulations — the correct theoretical answer, recall, is a solution to a set of coupled non-Markovian Navier-Stokes equation with a variable external driver and still unknown feedbacks in a chaotic regime with known important variability on multiple decadal or longer timescales — and yet they are certain that their results are correct, given the thirty plus years of accurate global thermal data (plus all of the longer timescale reconstructions or estimates they can produce from the common pool of old data, with all of its uncertainties).

Look, here’s how you can tell — to get back to your question. You compare the predictions of their “catastrophic” theory five, ten, twenty years back to the actual data. If there is good agreement, it is at least possible that they are correct. The greater the deviation between observed reality and their predictions, the more likely it is that their result is at least incorrect if not actual bullshit. That’s all. Accurately predicting the future isn’t proof that they are right, but failing to predict it is pretty strong evidence that they are wrong.

Such a comparison fails. It actually fails way back in the twentieth century, where it fails to predict or explain the cooling from 1945 to roughly 1965-1970. It fails to predict the little ice age. It fails to predict the medieval climate optimum, or the other periods in the last 10,000 years where the proxy record seems to indicate that the world was as warm or warmer than it is today. But even ignoring that — which we can, because those proxy reconstructions are just as doubtful in their own way as the tree-ring reconstructions, with or without a side-serving of confirmation bias to go with your fries — even ignoring that, it fails to explain the 33 or so years of the satellite record, the only arguably reliable measure of actual global temperatures humans have ever made. For the last third of that period, there has been no statistically significant increase in temperature, and it may even be that the temperature has decreased a bit from a 1998 peak. January of 2012 was nearly 0.1C below the 33 year baseline.

This behavior is explainable and understandable, but not in terms of their models, which predicted that the temperature would be considerably warmer, on average, than it appears to be, back when they were predicting the future we are now living. This is evidence that those models are probably wrong, that some of the variables that they have ignored in their theories are important, that some of the equations they have used have incorrect parameters, incorrect feedbacks. How wrong remains to be seen — if global temperatures actually decline for a few years (and stretch out the period with no increase still further in the process) — it could be that their entire model is fundamentally wrong, badly wrong. Or it could be that their models are partially right but had some of the parameters or physics wrong. Or it could even be that the models are completely correct, but neglected confounding things are temporarily masking the ongoing warming that will soon come roaring back with a catastrophic vengeance.

The latter is the story that is being widely told, to keep people from losing faith in a theory that isn’t working — so far — the way that it should. And I have only one objection to that. Keep your hands off of my money while the theory is still unproven and not in terribly good agreement with reality!

Well, I have other objections as well — open up the debate, acknowledge the uncertainties, welcome contradictory theories, stop believing in a set of theoretical results as if climate science is some sort of religion… but we can start with shit-canning the IPCC and the entire complex arrangement of “remedies” to a problem that may well be completely ignorable and utterly destined to take care of itself long before it ever becomes a real problem.

No matter what, we will be producing far less CO_2 in 30 years than we are today. Sheer economics and the advance of physics and technology and engineering will make fossil-fuel burning electrical generators as obsolete as steam trains. Long before we reach any sort of catastrophe — assuming that CAGW is correct — the supposed proximate cause of the catastrophe will be reversing itself without anyone doing anything special to bring it about but make sensible economic choices.

In the meantime, it would be so lovely if we could lose one single phrase in the “debate”. The CAGW theory is not “settled science”. I’m not even sure there is any such thing.

The climate data they don't want you to find — free, to your inbox.
Join readers who get 5–8 new articles daily — no algorithms, no shadow bans.
5 8 votes
Article Rating
221 Comments
Markus Fitzhenry
March 2, 2012 7:53 pm

LazyTeenager says:
March 2, 2012 at 5:01 pm
LazyTeenager says:
March 2, 2012 at 5:17 pm
LazyTeenager says:
March 2, 2012 at 5:27 pm
LazyTeenager says:
March 2, 2012 at 5:35 pm
——
You appear to be scrambling Sir, which is inappropriate and undignified behavior whilst you are amongst rational scientific sceptics.
Your constructive input is always appreciated, however, the dogmatic approach has worn out its tracks.

March 2, 2012 7:58 pm

KevinK said March 2, 2012 at 7:14 pm

Dr. Brown wrote;
“Sheer economics and the advance of physics and technology and engineering will make fossil-fuel burning electrical generators as obsolete as steam trains.”

While it is nice to note that you do in fact admit that engineers might just have little bit of an influence in the final outcome, this is NONSENSE……..
For example, you might want to note that there is only one column in the periodic table etc…

Kevin, you make some reasonable points about the limitations of current technologies, but are assuming that there will not be substantial improvements to some of them and new technologies we never even thought of before.
The Git notes that engineers are human and can be just as blind to possibilities as the next man. Some 30 years ago, the Git suggested to the Hydroelectricity Commission in Tasmania that instead of building a new dam, they should consider manufacturing solar hot water collectors and selling them to their customers. The Git was told that Tasmania was “too cold” for solar hot water systems. These days they are everywhere and making people overseas wealthy instead of Tasmanians who nevertheless save money on their electricity bills. So it goes…
The Git wonders whatever happened to the idea of frictionless flywheel energy storage underneath houses that was posited back in the 60s.

Marc77
March 2, 2012 8:08 pm

Using supercomputers increases the resolution of a solution. Increasing the resolution is similar to increasing the number of significant digits in a calculation. If someone decided to use 1000 digits to make a calculation with classical mechanics instead of an usual 5 digits. It would be mostly useless because classical mechanics is not precise to that level, even general relativity might not be. And the empirical data you start with might not have this precision anyway. In the case of climate science, a simple trend plus an oscillation correlated with the ENSO, seems to be able to make predictions as good as the computer models evaluated with the high resolution of supercomputers. What does it tell us? It could be just as useless to run actual climate models on supercomputers as it is to use classical mechanics at 1000 digits precision.

JON R. SALMI
March 2, 2012 8:21 pm

Dr Brown has hit the nail on the head. I would just like to ask some of my warmist friends what they would do if GHGs were to start heating the planet (as so very unlikely as that scenario is). If they said adapt to to changinging conditions I would ask how I could help. If they said mitigate I’d ask them how. Trying to reduce carbon has been an abject failure. Trying some hare-bain scheme to scrub CO2 from the atmosphere could back-fire, drop CO2 below 150 ppmv and kill all but the lowest forms of life on Earth. I just wish we could drive a stake through the heart of this AGW monster, so w could get to helping the poor and hungry of this planet.

David A. Evans
March 2, 2012 8:26 pm

The Pompous Git says:
March 2, 2012 at 7:58 pm

The Git wonders whatever happened to the idea of frictionless flywheel energy storage underneath houses that was posited back in the 60s.

Well my git friend, I’ll let “frictionless” slide even though there is not and never will be any such thing.
How much energy would you personally be prepared to sit on? 5kwHrs released in 5 seconds?

March 2, 2012 9:03 pm

David A. Evans says:
March 2, 2012 at 8:26 pm

The Pompous Git says:
March 2, 2012 at 7:58 pm
The Git wonders whatever happened to the idea of frictionless flywheel energy storage underneath houses that was posited back in the 60s.

Well my git friend, I’ll let “frictionless” slide even though there is not and never will be any such thing.
How much energy would you personally be prepared to sit on? 5kwHrs released in 5 seconds?

Yeah, I meant to put quotes around frictionless, but magnetic bearings are as close as and IIRC the flywheel would have been in a vacuum. Yes, I know; vacuums don’t exist either 😉 When the Git cooks, he is about 1.5 metres away from at least 200kWHr of LPG. Should he be frightened?

March 2, 2012 9:07 pm
March 2, 2012 9:11 pm

Smokey says: “Wrong conclusion. Everything has an effect on everything else. The basic questions are these: is the rise in CO2 a net benefit to the biosphere? Has the rise in CO2 caused any measurable, verifiable harm?”
Smokey, you are welcome to make those YOUR questions, but that does not make my conclusion “wrong”. Changing the goal mid-stream is not a legitimate tactic. I was pointing to clear evidence that I believe shows that CO2 has a warming effect on the earth — no more and no less.
If you want to address MY question, then provide your answers:
* do you believe that GHGs like CO2 provide warming to the earth’s surface?
* do you believe more GHGs provide more warming?
If you want to address your question, then do it separately. You seem intent on making me defend a position that I have not claimed.

JimF
March 2, 2012 9:20 pm

Stephen Rasey says:
March 2, 2012 at 7:30 pm “,,,Is complexity in the zoo of elementary particles a symptom of a desire to name things that are different? Is the complexity real or virtual?…”
The science (or “psuedoscience” as one friend, an outstanding geologist, calls it) of geology has always had a battle between “lumpers” and “splitters”; those who combine many effects into one great big blob of a cause; and those who take big issues and split and pigeonhole them in an extraordinary number of ways. Each approach wins one fame and fortune, and the latter approach lets you name things for yourself and friends, but neither advances science. A few see things in a way that let’s them find the true – or at least reasonable – causes for the effects they study. I suspect physics has similar characteristics.

Bart
March 2, 2012 9:52 pm

Zeke says:
March 2, 2012 at 9:31 am
And yet, just as is the case in “climate” “science,” the “anything else” that could explain the material system the science is supposed to be describing, is consistently, serially, and methodically ruled out of every scientific journal and academic institution.”
That is just not true. The history of Relativity is exactly opposite of that of Global Warming. Relativity was viciously attacked for decades, and no stone was left unturned in attempting to discredit it or come up with alternatives. Many other theories were proposed along the way. A century later, it is accepted as the best theory we have precisely because it passed every test, and its competitors failed along the way.

Bart
March 2, 2012 10:00 pm

Robert Brown says:
March 2, 2012 at 10:13 am
“I would respectfully differ with this, especially w.r.t. solar. Solar simply hasn’t yet come into its own, but IMO its arrival is at this point inevitable.”
I respectfully disagree. When you calculate merely the amount of material needed to construct a solar energy infrastructure which would deliver just the amount of power we currently consume, it quickly becomes apparent that the resources required are prohibitive.
The problem is energy density, which can be broadly defined in units of Watts per unit of effort to capture it. Nuclear is the way to go. It is the only available energy source which can compete with, indeed surpass, the energy density of fossil fuels.

March 2, 2012 10:10 pm

Marc77 says:
March 2, 2012 at 8:08 pm
Using supercomputers increases the resolution of a solution. Increasing the resolution is similar to increasing the number of significant digits in a calculation. If someone decided to use 1000 digits to make a calculation with classical mechanics instead of an usual 5 digits. It would be mostly useless because classical mechanics is not precise to that level, even general relativity might not be. And the empirical data you start with might not have this precision anyway. In the case of climate science, a simple trend plus an oscillation correlated with the ENSO, seems to be able to make predictions as good as the computer models evaluated with the high resolution of supercomputers. What does it tell us? It could be just as useless to run actual climate models on supercomputers as it is to use classical mechanics at 1000 digits precision.

Good stuff. Another thing to get across about spurious precision is: once you get past the “significant digits”, the rest are insignificant (= non-significant). Not just in the sense of being ‘unimportant’, but in the sense of being indistinguishable from a random sequence of equal length. The accuracy is utterly unknowable, because there are likely (certainly) a bunch of other but unknown and unspecified digits in the same places in the string hanging on after the lowest-significant-digit factor or element that add or subtract etc. from the ones you think you know. I.e., random.

Bart
March 2, 2012 10:17 pm

LazyTeenager says:
March 2, 2012 at 5:17 pm
“We know that Newtons laws are incorrect.”
We know nothing of the sort. Newton’s standard equations hold precisely in an instantaneous rest frame. From there, Relativistic dynamics can be fundamentally constructed from Newton’s laws in much the same way that Euler’s rigid body equations are constructed from Newton’s laws, taking account of the transformations between appropriate frames of reference.

March 2, 2012 10:23 pm

Bart said March 2, 2012 at 10:00 pm

Robert Brown says:
March 2, 2012 at 10:13 am
“I would respectfully differ with this, especially w.r.t. solar. Solar simply hasn’t yet come into its own, but IMO its arrival is at this point inevitable.”

I respectfully disagree. When you calculate merely the amount of material needed to construct a solar energy infrastructure which would deliver just the amount of power we currently consume, it quickly becomes apparent that the resources required are prohibitive.

The difference between solar and fossil fuel cannot be so very far apart if my friend in rural New South Wales is anything to go by. Going on the grid would have had a payback time of ~50 years. Traditionally diesel plant is used in such situations, but the cost of that was greater than solar with the added inconvenience of needing to be fired up when electricity was needed. I imagine that the carbon tax recently introduced by the Australian government will widen the gap further. Hint: we do not all live in cities.

Richard G
March 3, 2012 12:13 am

Bravo Robert!!!

Editor
March 3, 2012 12:21 am

Robert Brown says:
March 2, 2012 at 2:25 pm

See my analysis of the true costs of solar, “The Dark Future of Solar Energy” and also here to see why solar is very unlikely to meet anything like your fantastic extrapolations anytime soon.

Sounds like the grounds for a bet! I’ll bet you a case of my personal homebrew — which is very tasty indeed according to my friends — against a case of whatever beer you are proud of, that when mainstream solar costs drop below $1/Watt in 2009 dollars we start to see massive investment in large scale solar, with or without subsidy. Sooner in places with high insolation and low humidity where electricity is already expensive. We trade cases if fusion is invented first, just for grins.
You game? Mind you, I am close to winning the bet already, given that solar plants are being built now with nothing like a 4x subsidy when 2011 costs were still well over $2/watt.

Thanks, Robert. It’s unclear whether you are talking about total installed costs, or whether you are talking about the costs of the cells. Also, the bet is unquantified, you say we’ll see “massive investment”. What is “massive”? Makes it hard to bet.
In any case, the question is always levelized cost. If you can find a problem with my analyses linked above, please point it out. In the first analysis, I show that levelized costs for natural gas are about 7¢ per kwh, and solar are about 22¢ per kwh. Of this, about 6¢ is cost of the solar cells. Even if they were free, that would still put solar at more than twice the cost of natural gas … and you still have to build the natural gas plant. I know your science-fu is very strong … but your economic claims are curious.
In the second analysis, I show that a huge subsidy is currently necessary to make it pay. In the example, the plant would lose money hand over fist without the massive subsidies involved.
All you have given me is your assurance that “solar plants are being built with nothing like a 4x subsidy”, and while I know it’s ungentlemanly to ask … cite? And what is a “4x subsidy”? Because I have cited just such a system. The investors put in $1.6 billion, and the government subsidized it to the tune of $1.4 billion … we should all be so lucky.
Bear in mind that there are a variety of subsidies, often hidden, including but not limited to loans, grants, loan guarantees, tax holidays, and artificially inflated purchase prices for the electricity. I suggest that no matter what solar plant you are looking at, the total subsidy will be large. But bring on your citations.
w.

Bart
March 3, 2012 1:29 am

The Pompous Git says:
March 2, 2012 at 10:23 pm
“The difference between solar and fossil fuel cannot be so very far apart if my friend in rural New South Wales is anything to go by.”
The gap is Brobdingnagian. Sure, as a niche player, solar works. It’s when you try to scale it up to what would be needed to satisfy our current energy appetite that you start to hit hard limits.
Ignoring for the moment the question of how to store energy through nighttime, and neglecting overcast skies and loss of efficiency with aging, to reach parity with our current fossil fuel energy production, you would need to cover tens of thousands of square miles with arrays, particularly if you do not steer them to maximize projected solar flux during the day. Try calculating how much material is required to cover such an area. You will find we could not practically construct so large a project in less than a century, probably two or three.
And, can you even imagine the environmental impact of covering such a large area with material which is intended to absorb as much solar radiation as possible? We’re talking a UHI-like effect on mega-steroids, not to mention massive disruption of migratory patterns and an erosion catastrophe in the making as every plant beneath it dies for lack of sunlight. It makes oil drilling and production look ecologically benign.
Can you even imagine the maintenance nightmare for such a sprawling construction? I cannot.
It’s a pipe dream. Solar has a place in the energy mix, but it is a niche player, and it is never going make a very significant impact.

Bart
March 3, 2012 1:36 am

The name of the game is energy density. Fossil fuels have it, because they have been storing solar and internal Earth energy for eons. The is no way instantaneous solar power, which includes wind power, will ever compete with that.
And, nuclear has it, because of E = mc^2. Those are the two practical choices for producing sufficient energy to run our modern industrial society. Everything else is a chimera.

March 3, 2012 1:51 am

Thanks, Robert Brown, an excellent piece on the state of the ‘climate debate’, or lack off…
Regarding solar power generation, here is a promising possible future method for direct conversion of sunlight to electricity…
Solar power without solar cells: A hidden magnetic effect of light could make it possible
“A dramatic and surprising magnetic effect of light discovered by University of Michigan researchers could lead to solar power without traditional semiconductor-based solar cells.”
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-solar-power-cells-hidden-magnetic.html
The physics behind the observed effect are very interesting and could change our understanding of how photons work.

Bart
March 3, 2012 2:02 am

Look at this. And, this. Both are remarked on here, which notes:

In Italy last year, “they discovered that after one year in the field, over 90% of the (solar panels) from a one megawatt project began to delaminate and ended up on the ground.” The cant from the environmentalists is that solar and wind farms are practically maintenance free once built. Apparently this is as untrue as “Peak Oil” and “Man-made Global Warning”. The alternative energy schemes are working as well as socialism always works.

Did I mention “maintenance nightmare”? I believe that I did.
I’ve watched crap like this spring up all my life. I remember being taught in high school that solar, wind, and wave power would be providing for all our electricity by 2000, at which time the oil would have run out. Everybody wants to get something for nothing, and that makes them marks for operators who know how to prey on their cupidity. I am sick, I tell ya’, sick and tired of seeing this con job repeated on every new wet-behind-the-ears generation.
Fossil or nuclear. Those are the two choices, folks. Deal with it.

David A. Evans
March 3, 2012 2:21 am

The Pompous Git says:
March 2, 2012 at 9:03 pm

When the Git cooks, he is about 1.5 metres away from at least 200kWHr of LPG. Should he be frightened?

I would suggest that the MTBF of a gas canister will be greater than your hypothetical storage flywheel.
DaveE.

Bart
March 3, 2012 2:58 am

Tenuc says:
March 3, 2012 at 1:51 am
FTA: “They predict that with improved materials they could achieve 10 percent efficiency in converting solar power to useable energy. That’s equivalent to today’s commercial-grade solar cells.”
In other words, still need vast tracts of land and mind boggling amounts of material to reach parity with fossil fuels. It. Ain’t. Gonna’. Happen.

March 3, 2012 3:55 am

Folkerts and the chain of comments on his comments:
_____________________
Similarly, there are a few things that are “settled science” in climatology. One idea I would put in that category is:
. Everything else kept constant, a doubling of CO2 from recent levels will result in a radiative forcing of ~ 3.7 W/m^2, which corresponds to ~ 1 C in global temperatures.
_____________________
The 3.7 W m/^2 for a doubling of CO2 concentration comes from a line by line analysis of the CO2 absorption spectra in the long wave range (infrared). This work was made Myhre et al.
“New estimates of radiative forcing due to well mixed greenhouse gases.”
Geophysical Research Letters, Vol. 25, No.14, pages 2715-2718, July 15, 1998
http://folk.uio.no/gunnarmy/paper/myhre_grl98.pdf
In this same work the contribution of all so-called greenhouse gases (CO2, methane, nitrous oxide) since inception of the industrial era can be evaluated at 2.45 W/m^2, which would have been the cause of a 0.5 °C global surface temperature increase.
If one takes into account the climate negative feedbacks to this forcing (overall approx. -1.3 W m^-2 K^-1), then the temperature increase should have been approx. 0.4 °C.
To the 3.7 W m^-2 corresponds a ΔT of approx. 0.8 °C, or only 0.6 °C when taking feedbacks into account.
see http://climate.mr-int.ch/LinkedDocuments/Two%20Layers%20Climate%20Model.pdf
– Denier don’t want to take such known physical phenomena into account.
– Skeptics and heretics should consider them but look for better founded evaluations.
– Warmist and alarmist skew their assessements to achieve political goals. They claim a temperature increase for any doubling of CO2 in the 2.5 to 4 °C range (IPCC), without actually demonstrating the reasons for such a positive feedback.

Barefoot boy from Brooklyn
Reply to  Michel
March 3, 2012 5:48 am

I think it’s not unreasonable to continue to question the theory of radiative “forcing” by CO2 in the atmosphere. I am skeptical of papers that prove a theory because it fits a model. My understanding is that a theory has to fit the experimental facts. Yes, I realize no conceivable experiment, controlled or otherwise, can be done on the atmosphere. But that doesn’t justify us jumping to the conclusion that a model is a second best fit.

John Marshall
March 3, 2012 3:55 am

Excellent Dr. Brown, thanks.
I may have a little niggle though. Your deforestation claim. During the last ice age 10,000 years or so ago, the Amazon Basin was grassland due to the cooling. There has been deforestation to clear land for palm oil plantations, a stupid waste of land especially when the oil is used as biofuel but that is another topic. But the biggest problem these plantations have is the forest growing back trying to take back the land. A good thing as far as I am concerned. Forests are far more resilient than alarmists claim even the high latitude evergreens.
Again thanks for another good post.

mkelly
March 3, 2012 4:10 am

O H Dahlsveen says:”…energy they know has been created by CO2…”
Sir this is simply the most foolish thing that has been written on this site. Please explain this via the first law of thermodynamics.