By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley
Joel Shore, who has been questioning my climate-sensitivity calculations, just as a good skeptic should, has kindly provided at my request a reference to a paper by Dr. Andrew Lacis and others at the Goddard Institute of Space Studies to support his assertion that CO2 exercises about 75% of the radiative forcings from all greenhouse gases, because water vapor, the most significant greenhouse gas because of its high concentration in the atmosphere, condenses out rapidly, while the non-condensing gases, such as CO2, linger for years.
Dr. Lacis writes in a commentary on his paper: “While the non-condensing greenhouse gases account for only 25% of the total greenhouse effect, it is these non-condensing GHGs that actually control the strength of the terrestrial greenhouse effect, since the water vapor and cloud feedback contributions are not self-sustaining and, as such, only provide amplification.”
Dr. Lacis’ argument, then, is that the radiative forcing from water vapor should be treated as a feedback, because if all greenhouse gases were removed from the atmosphere most of the water vapor now in the atmosphere would condense or precipitate out within ten years, and within 50 years global temperatures would be some 21 K colder than the present.
I have many concerns about this paper, which – for instance – takes no account of the fact that evaporation from the surface occurs at thrice the rate imagined by computer models (Wentz et al., 2007). So there would be a good deal more water vapor in the atmosphere even without greenhouse gases than the models assume.
The paper also says the atmospheric residence time of CO2 is “measured in thousands of years”. Even the IPCC, prone to exaggeration as it is, puts the residence time at 50-200 years. On notice I can cite three dozen papers dating back to Revelle in the 1950s that find the CO2 residence time to be just seven years, though Professor Lindzen says that for various reasons 40 years is a good central estimate.
Furthermore, it is questionable whether the nakedly political paragraph with which the paper ends should have been included in what is supposed to be an impartial scientific analysis. To assert without evidence that beyond 300-350 ppmv CO2 concentration “dangerous anthropogenic interference in the climate system would exceed the 25% risk tolerance for impending degradation of land and ocean ecosystems, sea-level rise [at just 2 inches per century over the past eight years, according to Envisat], and inevitable disruption of socioeconomic and food-producing infrastructure” is not merely unsupported and accordingly unscientific: it is rankly political.
One realizes that many of the scientists at GISS belong to a particular political faction, and that at least one of them used to make regular and substantial donations to Al Gore’s re-election campaigns, but learned journals are not the place for über-Left politics.
My chief concern, though, is that the central argument in the paper is in effect a petitio principii – a circular and accordingly invalid argument in which one of the premises – that feedbacks are strongly net-positive, greatly amplifying the warming triggered by a radiative forcing – is also the conclusion.
The paper turns out to be based not on measurement, observation and the application of established theory to the results but – you guessed it – on playing with a notorious computer model of the climate: Giss ModelE. The model, in effect, assumes very large net-positive feedbacks for which there is precious little reliable empirical or theoretical evidence.
At the time when Dr. Lacis’ paper was written, ModelE contained “flux adjustments” (in plain English, fudge-factors) amounting to some 50 Watts per square meter, many times the magnitude of the rather small forcing that we are capable of exerting on the climate.
Dr. Lacis says ModelE is rooted in well-understood physical processes. If that were so, one would not expect such large fudge-factors (mentioned and quantified in the model’s operating manual) to be necessary.
Also, one would expect the predictive capacity of this and other models to be a great deal more successful than it has proven to be. As the formidable Dr. John Christy of NASA has written recently, in the satellite era (most of which in any event coincides with the natural warming phase of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation) temperatures have been rising at a rate between a quarter and a half of the rate that models such as ModelE have been predicting.
It will be helpful to introduce a little elementary climatological physics at this point – nothing too difficult (otherwise I wouldn’t understand it). I propose to apply the IPCC/GISS central estimates of forcing, feedbacks, and warming to what has actually been observed or inferred in the period since 1750.
Let us start with the forcings. Dr. Blasing and his colleagues at the Carbon Dioxide Information and Analysis Center have recently determined that total greenhouse-gas forcings since 1750 are 3.1 Watts per square meter.
From this value, using the IPCC’s table of forcings, we must deduct 35%, or 1.1 Watts per square meter, to allow for negative anthropogenic forcings, notably the particles of soot that act as tiny parasols sheltering us from the Sun. Net anthropogenic forcings since 1750, therefore, are 2 Watts per square meter.
We multiply 2 Watts per square meter by the pre-feedback climate-sensitivity parameter 0.313 Kelvin per Watt per square meter, so as to obtain warming of 0.6 K before any feedbacks have operated.
Next, we apply the IPCC’s implicit centennial-scale feedback factor 1.6 (not the equilibrium factor 2.8, because equilibrium is thousands of years off: Solomon et al., 2009).
Accordingly, after all feedbacks over the period have operated, a central estimate of the warming predicted by ModelE and other models favored by the IPCC is 1.0 K.
We verify that the centennial-scale feedback factor 1.6, implicit rather than explicit (like so much else) in the IPCC’s reports, is appropriate by noting that 1 K of warming divided by 2 Watts per square meter of original forcing is 0.5 Kelvin per Watt per square meter, which is indeed the transient-sensitivity parameter for centennial-scale analyses that is implicit (again, not explicit: it’s almost as though They don’t want us to check stuff) in each of the IPCC’s six CO2 emissions scenarios and also in their mean.
Dr. Lacis’ paper is saying, in effect, that 80% of the forcing from all greenhouse gases is attributable to CO2. The IPCC’s current implicit central estimate, again in all six scenarios and in their mean, is in the same ballpark, at 70%.
However, using the IPCC’s own forcing function for CO2, 5.35 times the natural logarithm of (390 ppmv / 280 ppmv), respectively the perturbed and unperturbed concentrations of CO2 over the period of study, is 1.8 Watts per square meter.
Multiply this by the IPCC’s transient-sensitivity factor 0.5 and one gets 0.9 K – which, however, is the whole of the actual warming that has occurred since 1750. What about the 20-30% of warming contributed by the other greenhouse gases? That is an indication that the CO2 forcing may have been somewhat exaggerated.
The IPCC, in its 2007 report, says no more than that between half and all of the warming observed since 1950 (and, in effect, since 1750) is attributable to us. Therefore, 0.45-0.9 K of observed warming is attributable to us. Even taking the higher value, if we use the IPCC/GISS parameter values and methods CO2 accounts not for 70-80% of observed warming over the period but for all of it.
In response to points like this, the usual, tired deus ex machina winched creakingly onstage by the IPCC’s perhaps too-unquestioning adherents is that the missing warming is playing hide-and-seek with us, lurking furtively at the bottom of the oceans waiting to pounce. However, elementary thermodynamic considerations indicate that such notions must be nonsense.
None of this tells us how big feedbacks really are – merely what the IPCC imagines them to be. Unless one posits very high net-positive feedbacks, one cannot create a climate problem. Indeed, even with the unrealistically high feedbacks imagined by the IPCC, there is not a climate problem at all, as I shall now demonstrate.
Though the IPCC at last makes explicit its estimate of the equilibrium climate sensitivity parameter (albeit that it is in a confused footnote on page 631 of the 2007 report), it is not explicit about the transient-sensitivity parameter – and it is the latter, not the former, that will be policy-relevant over the next few centuries.
So, even though we have reason to suspect there is a not insignificant exaggeration of predicted warming inherent in the IPCC’s predictions (or “projections”, as it coyly calls them), and a still greater exaggeration in Giss ModelE, let us apply their central estimates – without argument at this stage – to what is foreseeable this century.
The IPCC tells us that each of the six emissions scenarios is of equal validity. That means we may legitimately average them. Let us do so. Then the CO2 concentration in 2100 will be 712 ppmv compared with 392 ppmv today. So the CO2 forcing will be 5.35 ln(712/392), or 3.2 Watts per square meter, which we divide by 0.75 (the average of the GISS and IPCC estimates of the proportion of total greenhouse forcings represented by CO2) to allow for the other greenhouse gases, making 4.25 Watts per square meter.
We reduce this value by about 35% to allow for negative forcings from our soot-parasols etc., giving 2.75 Watts per square meter of net anthropogenic forcings between now and 2100.
Nest, multiply by the centennial-scale transient-sensitivity parameter 0.5 Kelvin per Watt per square meter. This gives us a reasonable central estimate of the warming to be expected by 2100 if we follow the IPCC’s and GISS’ methods and values every step of the way. And the warming we should expect this century if we do things their way? Well, it’s not quite 1.4 K.
Now we go back to that discrepancy we noted before. The IPCC says that between half and all of the warming since 1950 was our fault, and its methods and parameter values seem to give an exaggeration of some 20-30% even if we assume that all of the warming since 1950 was down to us, and a very much greater exaggeration if only half of the warming was ours.
Allowing for this exaggeration knocks back this century’s anthropogenic warming to not much more than 1 K – about a third of the 3-4 K that we normally hear so much about.
Note how artfully this tripling of the true rate of warming has been achieved, by a series of little exaggerations which, when taken together, amount to a whopper. And it is quite difficult to spot the exaggerations, not only because most of them are not all that great but also because so few of the necessary parameter values to allow anyone to spot what is going on are explicitly stated in the IPCC’s reports.
The Stern Report in 2006 took the IPCC’s central estimate of 3 K warming over the 20th century and said that the cost of not preventing that warming would be 3% of 21st-century GDP. But GDP tends to grow at 3% a year, so, even if the IPCC were right about 3 K of warming, all we’d lose over the whole century, even on Stern’s much-exaggerated costings (he has been roundly criticized for them even in the journal of which he is an editor, World Economics), would be the equivalent of the GDP growth that might be expected to occur in the year 2100 alone. That is all.
To make matters worse, Stern used an artificially low discount rate for inter-generational cost comparison which his office told me at the time was 0.1%. When he was taken apart in the peer-reviewed economic journals for using so low a discount rate, he said the economists who had criticized him were “confused”, and that he had really used 1.4%. William Nordhaus, who has written many reviewed articles critical of Stern, says that it is quite impossible to verify or to replicate any of Stern’s work because so little of the methodology is explicit and available. And how often have we heard that before? It is almost as if They don’t want us to check stuff.
The absolute minimum commercially-appropriate discount rate is equivalent to the minimum real rate of return on capital – i.e. 5%. Let us oblige Stern by assuming that he had used a 1.4% discount rate and not the 0.1% that his office told me of.
Even if the IPCC is right to try to maintain – contrary to the analysis above, indicating 1 K manmade warming this century – that we shall see 3 K warming by 2100 (progress in the first one-ninth of the century: 0 K), the cost of doing nothing about it, discounted at 5% rather than 1.4%, comes down from Stern’s 3% to just 0.5% of global 21st-century GDP.
No surprise, then, that the cost of forestalling 3 K of warming would be at least an order of magnitude greater than the cost of the climate-related damage that might arise if we just did nothing and adapted, as our species does so well.
But if the warming we cause turns out to be just 1 K by 2100, then on most analyses that gentle warming will be not merely harmless but also beneficial. There will be no net cost at all. Far from it: there will be a net economic benefit.
And that, in a nutshell, is why governments should shut down the UNFCCC and the IPCC, cut climate funding by at least nine-tenths, de-fund all but two or three computer models of the climate, and get back to addressing the real problems of the world – such as the impending energy shortage in Britain and the US because the climate-extremists and their artful nonsense have fatally delayed the building of new coal-fired and nuclear-fired power stations that are now urgently needed.
Time to get back down to Earth and use our fossil fuels, shale gas and all, to give electricity to the billions that don’t have it: for that is the fastest way to lift them out of poverty and, in so doing, painlessly to stabilize the world’s population. That would bring real environmental benefits.
And now you know why building many more power stations won’t hurt the climate, and why – even if there was a real risk of 3 K warming this century – it would be many times more cost-effective to adapt to it than to try to stop it.
As they say at Lloyds of London, “If the cost of the premium exceeds the cost of the risk, don’t insure.” And even that apophthegm presupposes that there is a risk – which in this instance there isn’t.
The Viscount Monckton of Brenchley
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Part 1 of Sense and Sensitivity can be found here
The vapor pressure of water depends only on the temperature of the liquid phase it was last in contact with and not on trace gasses. Lord Moncton, you spent far too much time on this.
Markus;
Moreover, Davidmhoffer, those 10cm’s of aquifers are full in Australasia, the sub continent and large parts of Africa.>>>
Markus, please do learn to read.
The contention was that water from deep aquifers that are NOT replenished are being used for irrigation and that this water, that previously was NOT part of the water cycle, will raise the levels of the oceans by 10 cm.
If one multiplies 10 cm by the area of the world’s oceans to arrive at the volume of water that would be required to be used in irrigation strictly from deep aquifers that are NOT normally part of the water cycle, one gets a rather large number well in excess of that being used in the irrigation process in question.
I’d say that the importance of CO2 residence time is this: The claim is made that additions of atmospheric CO2 from the burning of fossil fuels remain in the atmosphere for a millennium and is thus effectively irreversible. The assertation is, “what goes up don’t come down”. Wrong.
I’ve examined the peak rate of decline showing in the Mauna Loa record (every year in the Northern growing season) and derived a half life of about 14 years.
The world’s surface is covered 70% with water, at what point would all atmospheric water condense out? Worse, given that the energy contained in latent heat (held by water vapor) of the atmosphere exceeds that of all gases combined in sensible heat, that postulation is truly absurd. Water vapor/humidity is the prime variable of the earth’s atmosphere and the sun is the prime driver. The availability of water vapor controls the range of air temperature fluctuations. Go consult the psychrometric chart.
Exactly, it’s a violation of the gas laws, the partial pressure of water vapor in the atmosphere is governed by the availability of it in any given place on the earth. With 70% of the surface area being liquid water, the partial pressure of water vapor will always insure there is water in the atmosphere. This is why deserts have low humidity, no bodies of water to supply water vapor except by transport of precipitation from long distances via clouds and moving air masses.
Joules Verne says:
January 16, 2012 at 6:13 am
So let me get this straight.
Lacis contends that if enough CO2 is removed from the atmosphere the earth will become a giant snowball because all the water vapor will freeze out.
And then without missing a beat he advocates lowering the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.
Is Lacis playing with a full deck?
“On notice I can cite three dozen papers dating back to Revelle in the 1950s that find the CO2 residence time to be just seven years, though Professor Lindzen says that for various reasons 40 years is a good central estimate.”
Segalstad has gathered studies together and 5.4 years is probably close to CO2’s half-life in the atmosphere. This makes much more sense than 40 years as we know that corn essentially uses up all CO2 near the ground on a sunny day. CO2 is so rare that photosynthesis would be expected to cause a fairly vibrant turnover.
Sent before I have read other comments…..
To argue only radiation is to play the warmists’ game. Limiting one’s attention to radiation ignores the evaporation-convection-condensation effect of water (which is always in the atmosphere) plus the effect of clouds plus the convection of sensible heat from contact with the warmed surface. From comments to various postings I have gleaned the information that radiation is much inferior to convection as a heat-transfer mechanism. I don’t know that convection is superior to radiation and would very much like to have a knowledgeable answer.
IanM
“However, using the IPCC’s own forcing function for CO2, 5.35 times the natural logarithm of (390 ppmv / 280 ppmv), respectively the perturbed and unperturbed concentrations of CO2 over the period of study, is 1.8 Watts per square meter.”
The IPCC, as usual, is bogus. 280 ppv represents nothing. It is not the average preIndustrial CO2. It is a cherry-picked number which is devoid of any anchor to reality. During the period 280 ppv is supposed o describe, CO2 varied from 260 to 550 ppm and 280 was NOT the average; more like 330 was the average.
# crosspatch : January 15, 2012 at 10:10 pm
Talc and gypsum contain no carbon; the other materials you mention are however carbonates.
“the cost of forestalling 3 K of warming would be at least an order of magnitude greater than the cost of the climate-related damage that might arise if we just did nothing and adapted, as our species does so well.”
Of course, it has to be pointed out that the climate-realted damage is estimated by people who want maximal damage to support their view. There is, actually, every indication that warming would be a boon for the world, with gains in virtually every area.
I have to laugh at the total disregard of the elephant poop in the room (aka oceans and atmospheric drivers of land temps intrinsic to Earth’s natural systems) while looking for mouse turds.
Excellent Christopher,
Thank you very much; A learning experience, again.
crosspatch says:
January 15, 2012 at 10:22 pm
“But even in what we would consider “dry” air, there is still significantly more water vapor than CO2.”
Oh! You mean like in Fairbanks, AK, where the dewpoint this morning is at -28F?
What is missing from this very nice discussion is the huge heat engine in the form of the convection of warm, humid air to altitude where it cools, condenses, and cool rain falls back to Earth. This is responsible for about 85% of energy transfer to altitude, away from the surface, and is the missing heat Trenberth agonizes over.
Not including this huge heat engine, which ramps up when warming occurs, is to ignore one of the largest negative feedback mechanisms on the planet. It is patently wrong to pretend that water vapor accentuates CO2’s effects in any way. Recent work shows that CO2 actually interferes with water vapor’s “heat-trapping” such that added CO2 decreases the net effect. Further,more added CO2 displaces water vapor in the upper troposphere such that there is a fairly constant presence (Zagoni & Miskolczi (sp?)).
Only the IPCC is willing to consider water vapor a positive feedback factor while totally ignoring the water cycle whose details we teach to grade school children. That’s how basic is the IPCC’s junk science construct for AGW and climate sensitivity.
The definition of GHGs is purposely tailored to lead the user to select CO2 and water vapor, but these are gases which actively convert IR radiation to heat and back. During the day, it’s a two way street and wrong to assume it is only IR to CO2 to heat to air. The air is equally capable of handing heat to CO2 which then releases IR. It is at night that the two gases are energy leaks, like many small holes in a greenhouse’s glass roof. As the climate models do not really model night-time, this piece is missing.
A real greenhouse gas cannot release IR to the environment, just as a greenhouse cannot release the warmed air. So, the proper definition of a GHG (a true heat-trapping bass) would lead one to the nitrogen and oxygen in the atmosphere which cannot radiate IR at all. Lacking heat input by CO2 or water vapor, N2 and O2 are heated by conduction by the Earth’s surface and they would, thus, only be able to lose heat by conduction back to the Earth’s surfaces which would then radiate IR. It is this blanket of impotent gases that is the real greenhouse blanket that keeps us warmer than otherwise. WIthout CO2 or water vapor, we would be much warmer!!!!!!
It beggars the imagination that the discussion appears to about gases that cannot retain heat, yet we call them greenhouse gases.
Lord Monckton,
A interesting post that covers quite a bit of territory. A few points to consider (and of course do research on your own as needed):
It is very hard to estimate the actual practical warming value of having a noncondensing greenhouse gas such as CO2 in the atmosphere. From a purely quantitative perspective of course we can figure out how much forcing in W/ m2 comes from CO2 versus water vapor, with the split being approximately 25/75 or so, but this does not really indicate the full function of a noncondensing greenhouse gas…that is, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Take away CO2, and the Earth goes back to an snowball planet in a fairly short order (less than a century). Once cooling starts the cycle of condensing more and more water vapor, more cooling, and glacial growth begins. CO2 does not react this way of course and provides a buffer to the creation of a snowball planet. So, even though the actual contribution of CO2 as measured may be only 25% of the atmospheric warming, it is a critical 25%, such that without it, you could lose quite a bit of the remaining warming as the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere would fall to very low levels overall, such as we find over Antarctica and would once more in a snowball planet situation.
But that’s just a side note, as the real issue from your post seems to come down to a cost/benefit and risk/reward perspective. It seems you can readily accept that the transient temperature response to a doubling of CO2 might be 1K, and you still seem to infer that you feel the equalibrium response would not be much more than this? Is that correct? Essentially you feel they are “nearly equal”, and moreover, that there is very little to worry about from this kind of potential change. Humans can easily adapt, and all efforts should be put into adaption, rather than prevention? Even in what you consider a worse case scenario (which you clearly don’t think is likely), of a 3K increase in global temperatures (equalibrium response I assume), you still think that humans can adapt, and that the even in this case, the cost of trying to prevent it is not worth it, and may in fact spend resources that should be used for solving more important issues. Does this summarize your view?
Michael Hammer has it right. Temperatures at the equator would be well above freezing even with no greenhouse effect. With no clouds and reduced albedo, more water is evaporated into the atmosphere, and circulated to higher latitudes, leading to global warming. As the water vapor content of the atmosphere, we get a negative feedback from cooling. This strong stabilizing effect of water is why we’ve had oceans and life for billions of years despite a significant increase in the sun’s output
Some on this thread have stated water vapor is ignored because it’s not affected by anthropological processes. Actually it is. Here in the western US ,irrigation has put plenty of water vapor into the atmosphere that naturally wouldn’t be there. I suspect the irrigation factor has had a significant effect on “global warming”.
For those wanted one of the best summaries available anywhere on the web of the true science behind the effects of CO2 in the atmosphere, I highly recommend reading all 8 parts of:
http://scienceofdoom.com/2009/11/28/co2-an-insignificant-trace-gas-part-one/
This is pretty heavy reading, and will likely take you many hours, but it is well worth it if you really want to understand this “insignificant” trace gas, and why it has significant effects on Earth’s climate.
“While the non-condensing greenhouse gases account for only 25% of the total greenhouse effect, it is these non-condensing GHGs that actually control the strength of the terrestrial greenhouse effect, since the water vapor and cloud feedback contributions are not self-sustaining and, as such, only provide amplification.”
Yes, because heat doesn’t evaporate water, CO2 does.
On the other hand, I’m sure he has good reasons for saying this. After all, if heat from water vapor were allowed to evaporate water their models couldn’t simultaneously predict huge CO2 warming and remain stable; they couldn’t backcast without quickly hitting a rail. QED, water doesn’t evaporate because of heat, it evaporates because of CO2. Figuring out the mechanism for this will be left for a whole generation of future physics grad students. Think of all the grant money multiplication.
Re the residence time of CO2 in the atmosphere.
Two distinct concepts are being confused here. Residence time in the customary sense long used by scientists is the average amount of time a molecule of a substance remains in a reservoir before moving out. In the case of CO2 in the atmosphere this is something like 5 years. This figure is not relevant to climate sensitivity as one CO2 molecule has radiative properties like any other.
Unfortunately the same term residence time has come to be used in the climate debate for an entirely different concept, which is the amount of time that the content of a substance in a reservoir will take to return to its previous level after the addition (or subtraction) of a given amount of the substance. It would be clearer for all concerned if a separate term (such as ‘adjustment time’) was used where this sense is intended.
We can gain some idea of the adjustment time for CO2 in the atmosphere by comparing the annual emission of CO2 from burning fossil fuels with the annual increase in atmospheric CO2. Suppose we find that 50% of the emissions contribute to the growth in atmospheric CO2; this means that the other 50% is effectively going to some other destination. (I don’t know whether the 50/50 split is exact – it’s just to make the calculation simpler). If the current annual increase in the atmosphere is, say, 2 ppm, that means that the other 2 ppm is being accommodated elsewhere. If the current level of atmospheric CO2 is 395 ppm, while the pre-industrial level was, say, 285 ppm it will take something like 110/2 = 55 years to adjust back to the pre-industrial level. It might be a bit longer, as the annual adjustment may well be logarithmic and decrease as the pre-industrial level is approached. That’s the adjustment time as of now, assuming no further emissions.
To come up with much higher figures for the adjustment time, in the centuries/millennia range, one needs to be able to forecast future CO2 emission rates. There is no single value for adjustment time, it will vary according to how much more CO2 there is in the atmosphere than the pre-industrial level. In other words one must quote the CO2 level along with the adjustment time, otherwise the figure has no meaning.
R. Gates says:
January 16, 2012 at 8:06 am
“Take away CO2, and the Earth goes back to an snowball planet in a fairly short order (less than a century).”
Are you able to demonstrate this runaway cooling effect in a laboratory setting?
You can download “Atmospheric CO2: Principal Control Knob Governing Earth’s Temperature” by Andrew A. Lacisi, Gavin A. Schmidt, David Rind, & Reto A. Ruedy here:
http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2010/2010_Lacis_etal.pdf
It seems more like propaganda than science though.
R. Gates says:
January 16, 2012 at 8:23 am
Sir, on a recent thread you spoke of a 1.5 C transient sensitivity to a doubling of CO2 to 560 ppm.
You also said: “…But what you especially can’t do, is put either transient or equilibrium sensitiity on a log chart.”
Mkelly asked RGates: “So I assume you disagree with the IPCC dF= 5.35 ln(C/Co) in that they put it on a log basis?”
Moncton above quoted IPCC as did I on a log function for CO2. Given your statement about not putting it on a log chart I again ask “Do you disagree with the IPCC?”
RE: John Brookes: (January 16, 2012 at 1:25 am)
“What is it with the inability to understand the role of water vapour?”
Water vapor appears to be the primary greenhouse gas in the troposphere, both in heat retention and radiation. Most of the Earth’s heat radiated to outer space appears to come from the troposphere, not the surface, where, according to Trenberth’s diagram, 333 W/m² of back radiation reduces the 396 W/m² outgoing radiation to a net 63 W/m² leaving the surface, yet a total of 239 W/m² is actually escaping to outer space. This must be coming primarily from water vapor as CO2 absorbs most of its own characteristic radiation all the way up to the stratopause.
“Warmer air can hold more water vapour. If we do something that warms the atmosphere, then the atmosphere can hold more water. It probably will, given that 2/3 of the earth’s surface is covered by a great big source of water.
Perhaps this would create more clouds to reflect solar radiation.
“So why do we worry about putting CO2 into the atmosphere but not water? Its pretty simple. Extra water in the atmosphere will fall out as rain or snow very quickly, and there will be no lasting extra water vapour in the atmosphere re-emitting IR radiation in all directions. Extra CO2 will stay in the atmosphere for some time.”
From a nominal pre-industrial level of 280 PPM, we have only increased the CO2 level by about 41 percent to something in the neighborhood of 396 PPM. According to some estimates, burning all the remaining economically recoverable carbon in the world would be insufficient to increase this to double the base value or 560 PPM. The raw effect of such a doubling is estimated to be on the order of one deg K.
It is heat transport people!!!!!
What transports heat better?
A chemical that changes state within the temperature pressure band that is available on the planet OR a chemical that has 1 state for available pressures and temperatures. Yes CO2 can be made into dry ice, but find me a place on this planet where it can do that naturally.
Which is more important to the entire process?
This is probably not a question to ask people who think the sun has nothing to do with our climate variations (somehow they manage to forget that without the sun, there would be no climate whatsoever to worry about)…
Fixation on the tiniest, most insignificant part of the equation and giving it gigantic implications is the hallmark of crackpots. One wonders if they have ever spent a summer night in the high desert.
Thank you (“Coldish says:
January 16, 2012 at 8:31 am”) for making the important distinction between residence time and ‘adjustment time’
Regarding ‘adjustment time’, see:
http://www.john-daly.com/carbon.htm
“So any CO2 impulse injected into the atmosphere will take about 38 years to reduce itself to half the original value.”