Unified Climate Theory May Confuse Cause and Effect

Guest Post by Ira Glickstein

The Unified Theory of Climate post is exciting and could shake the world of Climate Science to its roots. I would love it if the conventional understanding of the Atmospheric “Greenhouse” Effect (GHE) presented by the Official Climate Team could be overturned, and that would be the case if the theory of Ned Nikolov and Karl Zeller, both PhDs, turns out to be scientifically correct.

Sadly, it seems to me they have made some basic mistakes that, among other faults, confuse cause and effect. I appreciate that WUWT is open to new ideas, and I support the decision to publish this theory, along with both positive and negative comments by readers.

Correlation does not prove causation. For example, the more policemen directing traffic, the worse the jam is. Yes, when the police and tow trucks first respond to an accident they may slow the traffic down a bit until the disabled automobiles are removed. However, there is no doubt the original cause of the jam was the accident, and the reason police presence is generally proportional to the severity of the jam level is that more or fewer are ordered to respond. Thus, Accident >>CAUSES>> Traffic Jam >>CAUSES>> Police is the correct interpretation.

Al Gore made a similar error when, in his infamous movie An Inconvenient Truth, he made a big deal about the undoubted corrrelation in the Ice Core record between CO2 levels and Temperature without mentioning the equally apparent fact that Temperatures increase and decrease hundreds of years before CO2 levels follow suit.

While it is true that rising CO2 levels do have a positive feedback that contributes to slightly increased Temperatures, the primary direction of causation is Temperature >>CAUSES>> CO2. The proof is in the fact that, in each Glacial cycle, Temperatures begin their rapid decline precisely when CO2 levels are at their highest, and rapid Temperature increase is initiated exactly when CO2 levels are their lowest. Thus, Something Else >>CAUSES>> Temperature>>CAUSES>> CO2. Further proof may be had by placing an open can of carbonated beverage in the refigerator and another on the table, and noting that the “fizz” (CO2) outgasses more rapidly from the can at room temperature.

Moving on to Nikolov, the claim appears to be that the pressure of the Atmosphere is the main cause of temperature changes on Earth. The basic claim is PRESSURE >>CAUSES>>TEMPERATURE.

PV = nRT

Given a gas in a container, the above formula allows us to calculate the effect of changes to the following variables: Pressure (P), Volume (V), Temperature (T, in Kelvins), and Number of molecules (n). (R is a constant.)

The figure shows two cases involving a sealed, non-insulated container, with a Volume, V, of air:

(A) Store that container of air in the ambient cool Temperature Tr of a refrigerator. Then, increase the Number n of molecules in the container by pumping in more air. the Pressure (P) within the container will increase. Due to the work done to compress the air in the fixed volume container, the Temperature within the container will also increase from (Tr) to some higher value. But, please note, when we stop increasing n, both P and T in the container will stabilize. Then, as the container, warmed by the work we did compressing the air, radiates, conducts, and convects that heat to the cool interior of the refrigerator, the Temperature slowly decreases back to the original Tr.

(B) We take a similar container from the cool refrigerator at Temperature Tr and place it on a kitchen chair, where the ambient Temperature Tk is higher. The container is warmed by radiation, conduction and convection and the Temperature rises asymptotically towards Tk. The Pressure P rises slowly and stabilizes at some higher level. Please note the pressure remains high forever so long as the temperature remains elevated.

In case (A) Pressure >>CAUSES A TEMPORARY>> increase in Temperature.

In case (B) Temperature >>CAUSES A PERMANENT>> increase in Pressure.

I do not believe any reader will disagree with this highly simplified thought experiment. Of course, the Nikolov theory is far more complex, but, I believe it amounts to confusing the cause, namely radiation from the Sun and Downwelling Long-Wave Infrared (LW DWIR) from the so-called “Greenhouse” gases (GHG) in the Atmosphere with the effect, Atmospheric pressure.

Some Red Flags in the Unified Theory

1) According to Nikolov, our Atmosphere

“… boosts Earth’s surface temperature not by 18K—33K as currently assumed, but by 133K!”

If, as Nikolov claims, the Atmosphere boosts the surface temperature by 133K, then, absent the Atmosphere the Earth would be 288K – 133K = 155K. This is contradicted by the fact that the Moon, which has no Atmosphere and is at the same distance from the Sun as our Earth, has an average temperature of about 250K. Yes, the albedo of the Moon is 0.12 and that of the Earth is 0.3, but that difference would make the Moon only about 8K cooler than an Atmosphere-free Earth, not 95K cooler! Impossible!

2) In the following quote from Nikolov, NTE is “Atmospheric Near-Surface Thermal Enhancement” and SPGB is a “Standard Planetary Gray Body”

NTE should not be confused with an actual energy, however, since it only defines the relative (fractional) increase of a planet’s surface temperature above that of a SPGB. Pressure by itself is not a source of energy! Instead, it enhances (amplifies) the energy supplied by an external source such as the Sun through density-dependent rates of molecular collision. This relative enhancement only manifests as an actual energy in the presence of external heating. [Emphasis added]

This, it seems to me, is an admission that the source of energy for their “Atmospheric Near-Surface Thermal Enhancement” process comes from the Sun, and, therefore, their “Enhancement” is as they admit, not “actual energy”. I would add the energy that would otherwise be lost to space (DW LWIR) to the energy from the Sun, eliminating any need for the “Thermal Enhancement” provided by Atmospheric pressure.

3) As we know when investigating financial misconduct, follow the money. Well, in Climate Science we follow the Energy. We know from actual measurements (see my Visualizing the “Greenhouse” Effect – Emission-Spectra) the radiative energy and spectra of Upwelling Long-Wave Infrared (UW LWIR), from the Surface to the so-called “greenhouse” gases (GHG) in the Atmosphere, and the Downwelling (DW LWIR) from those gases back to the Surface.

The only heed Nikolov seems to give to GHG and those measured radiative energies is that they are insufficient to raise the temperature of the Surface by 133K.

… our atmosphere boosts Earth’s surface temperature not by 18K—33K as currently assumed, but by 133K! This raises the question: Can a handful of trace gases which amount to less than 0.5% of atmospheric mass trap enough radiant heat to cause such a huge thermal enhancement at the surface? Thermodynamics tells us that this not possible.

Of course not! Which is why the conventional explanation of the GHE is that the GHE raises the temperature by only about 33K (or perhaps a bit less -or more- but only a bit and definitely not 100K!).

4) Nikolov notes that, based on “interplanetary data in Table 1” (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Moon, Mars, Europe, Titan, Triton):

… we discovered that NTE was strongly related to total surface pressure through a nearly perfect regression fit…

Of course, one would expect planets and moons in our Solar system to have some similarities.

“… the atmosphere does not act as a ‘blanket’ reducing the surface infrared cooling to space as maintained by the current GH theory, but is in and of itself a source of extra energy through pressure. This makes the GH effect a thermodynamic phenomenon, not a radiative one as presently assumed!

I just cannot square this assertion with the clear measurements of UW and DW LWIR, and the fact that the wavelengths involved are exactly those of water vapor, carbon dioxide, and other GHGs.

Equation (7) allows us to derive a simple yet robust formula for predicting a planet’s mean surface temperature as a function of only two variables – TOA solar irradiance and mean atmospheric surface pressure,…”

Yes, TOA solar irradiance would be expected to be important in predicting mean surface temperature, but mean atmospheric surface pressure, it seems to me, would more likely be a result than a cause of temperature. But, I could be wrong.

Conclusion

I, as much as anyone else here at WUWT, would love to see the Official Climate Team put in its proper place. I think climate (CO2) sensitivity is less than the IPCC 2ºC to 4.5ºC, and most likely below 1ºC. The Nikolov Unified Climate Theory goes in the direction of reducing climate sensitivity, apparently even making it negative, but, much as I would like to accept it, I remain unconvinced. Nevertheless, I congratulate Nikolov and Zeller for having the courage and tenacity to put this theory forward. Perhaps it will trigger some other alternative theory that will be more successful.

=============================================================

UPDATE: This thread is closed – see the newest one “A matter of some Gravity” where the discussion continues.

The climate data they don't want you to find — free, to your inbox.
Join readers who get 5–8 new articles daily — no algorithms, no shadow bans.
0 0 votes
Article Rating
1K Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Joel Shore
January 6, 2012 4:23 pm

Richard M says:

Just because you could come up with a separate method of bending spoons doesn’t mean another valid method doesn’t exist.

Well, sure that’s certainly that true and if you want to believe Uri Geller has paranormal powers, be my guest.
But, a lot of people here (including you, as I recall) have been pointing to their fit as some sort of mighty evidence that they must be on to something…It is not. And, given that this empirical evidence for their “theory” is found lacking, their justifications for believing it have been shown to be nonsense, and nobody can successfully explain how their “theory” even satisfies conservation of energy, I would say it is looking like belief in it at this point is based completely on the it telling some people what they want to believe anyway. It certainly isn’t based on science.

Bart
January 6, 2012 4:43 pm

Joel Shore says:
January 6, 2012 at 1:34 pm
“The radiative emission from a surface is independent of conduction and convection. It just depends on temperature.”
To use one of your favorite turns of phrases, Joel, this is becoming embarrassing. It appears you have little idea how SB is derived or what it means. My advice is to stop digging.
Smokey says:
January 6, 2012 at 1:58 pm
Thanks, Smokey. I enjoy your posts, too. The world seems awash in pseudo-scientists all over the place who think the idea of the scientific method is to find evidence to validate one’s intuition.

Bart
January 6, 2012 4:46 pm

“…who think the idea of the scientific method is to find evidence to validate one’s intuition.
Before I get flamed on that, yes, such people are found on both sides of the debate. It falls to the minority of thoughtful people to weigh the evidence, determine where it is wanting, and refrain from forming a conclusion until the evidence is… conclusive.

Bob Fernley-Jones
January 6, 2012 4:55 pm

Willis,
From what I’ve read here, and the way that you (and Joel) have evaded some issues raised, I think that you do not understand a basic premise in N&Z. You claim that an N2 atmosphere planet cannot have a surface effective T, greater than the BB equivalent arising from the insolation. However, I don’t think you have replied on what drives the conduction and various convective/advective energy transfers in said atmosphere. There is energy involved in doing that which implies that the surface could indeed be hotter than you intuitively assert. Richard Courtney has advised you that N&Z claim that as a consequence of atmospheric pressure, the surface T is higher than in the standard explanation, regardless of GHE. This concept does not require extra energy, just as the concept of GHE does not require extra energy. Tim Folkerts has suggested that an N2 atmosphere would have a lapse rate of ~10K/Km, and has eloquently described that near the surface, the molecules have higher KE than at altitude, where KE is converted to PE as a consequence of gravitational force deceleration, and thus colder. To me it seems that this supports the N&Z basic premise, although their derivations make me pause substantially, and I await their anticipated improved paper…

gbaikie
January 6, 2012 5:12 pm

“Regarding Willis’s thought experiment comparing an airless planet to one that had a significant non-GHG atmosphere, can someone explain why the outgoing radiation (watts/mtr2) would have to correspond directly to temperature (Willis seems to be saying this; Stephen seems to be disagreeing)?”
Temperature in Kelvin cubed * .0000000567
Stefan–Boltzmann constant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan%E2%80%93Boltzmann_constant
Lunar lunar in sunlight is 400 K
400 * 400 * 400 *400 * .0000000567
which is 1451.5 watts. Hmm 400 K equals 126.8 C.
Well, Lunar surface can’t be 400 K or 126.8,
nor can it be 399 K [it requires 1437 watts per meter]
though it can be 397 K [1408 watts per square meter].
Because sun at earth distance has 1412 watts to 1321 watts per square meter.
This because object at 400 K is radiating 1437 watts per square meter.
And this it’s not source of energy it can’t radiate more energy then it receives
from sun. Even if it adding it’s own heat, the Sun can’t heat hotter than than it’s
blackbody temperature at earth distance.
So something 397 K [123.8 C or 255 F] is emitting 1408 watts of energy.
Stop shining sunlight at lunar surface and in about 2 hours it’s lower
by 100 K- so 397 to 297 K.
And 297 * 297 * 297 * 297 * .0000000567 is:
441 watts per square meter.
The 14 day long lunar nite has surface temperate to dropping to
100 K:
100 * 100 * 100 * 100 * .0000000567 is:
5.67 watts per square meter
So in about 300 hours it goes from emitting 441 watts to 5.67 watts per square meter.
And it’s going drop quickly, most of the night time it emits, say 10 watts per square meter.
Hmm 150 K is 28.7 watts per square meter- so instead maybe it’s around 20 watts.

Dan in Nevada
January 6, 2012 5:18 pm

Richard M says:
January 6, 2012 at 4:19 pm
Thank you,
Dan

Richard M
January 6, 2012 5:27 pm

A comment over on another thread just got me thinking more about a possible mechanism for my maxGHE conjecture. I sort of mentioned this earlier that the GHG footprint could be the mechanism but it didn’t feel right at the time. It’s starting to feel better now.
So, let’s look at what is required for the GHE to increase and raise the temperature of the surface. The equilibrium height must go up which provides more room for the lapse rate to warm the surface. However, to go up it requires moving into a cooler, less dense portion of the atmosphere. In addition, the GHGs are mostly heavier gases. Gravity will make it tougher and tougher to find sufficient GHGs to absorb additional radiation. It will take a larger addition of GHGs to push more of them into higher elevations. In addition, since the areal surface is also expanding it takes more and more GHGs to produce the same effect. This works in concert with the saturation effect as well.
We can now see that the mass of the atmosphere and the density (based on gravity) will lead to a ever decreasing ability to increase the GHE. At some point it’s probably impossible to raise the equilibrium height any measurable amount. That would be maxGHE and I suspect there’s a way to calculate it.
It may be the equation in section 3.3.
Chances are we have already reached maxGHE on Earth and additional concentrations of GHGs in the atmosphere will have little to no added warming capacity.

gbaikie
January 6, 2012 5:39 pm

“Olympus Mons is a shield volcano, similar in morphology to the large volcanoes making up the Hawaiian Islands. The edifice is about 600 km (370 mi) wide and stands nearly 22 km (14 mi) above the surrounding plains (a little over twice the height of Mauna Kea as measured from its base on the ocean floor). The summit of the mountain has six nested calderas (collapse craters) forming an irregular depression 60 × 80 km (37 × 50 mi) across” and up to 3.2 km (2.0 mi) deep.[8] The volcano’s outer edge consists of an escarpment, or cliff, up to 8 km (5.0 mi) tall, a feature unique among the shield volcanoes of Mars. Olympus Mons covers an area approximately the size of Arizona.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_Mons
Does Olympus Mons have any effect upon Mars global temperature? If so would
warm or cool?
If it was on earth, would it any effect upon Earth’s global temperature- assuming it was like Mars, somewhat near equator?

Baa Humbug
January 6, 2012 5:48 pm

Folkerts
Hi Tim
Seems you’re the only one who wished to answer my question at 8:43pm Jan 2nd

I have 2 identical boxes with an identical heating device in each.
My task is to increase the rate of warming in one of the boxes (Box 1) whilst decreasing the rate of warming in the other (Box 2).
I have available to me 2 types of paint. One is a High Thermal Emissivity (HTE) paint whilst the other is a Low Thermal Emissivity paint.
Which box should be painted with which paint?

You replied

I would say that the high emissivity coating will increase the net transfer from warm objects to cool objects. So I conclude that if the “box” is cooler than the “room” the high emissivity coating will help it absorb more energy, increasing the overall rate of temperature rise. Conversely, if the “box” is warmer than the “room”, then a low emissivity coating decreases energy loss from the “box”, also increasing the overall rate of temperature rise.

So basicall, an internally heated box will be warmer if painted with a low emissivity paint, and cooler if painted with a high emissivity paint.
Here are a couple of links. One is from AMF (funnily enough, I worked for this company for about 10 years but in a very different field) regarding low emissivity paints for the space shuttle nose cone.
The 2nd link is an energy efficiency fact sheet from the Energy Ideas Clearing House.
http://contrails.iit.edu/DigitalCollection/1960/WADDTR60-773article14.pdf
http://www.energyideas.org/documents/factsheets/PTR/HeatTransfer.pdf
Basically, if we want to ‘keep heat where it is’ we use LEP. Conversely, if we wanted to ‘shed heat’ we use HEP.
So why am I fussing over this?
THE EARTH IS JUST LIKE THE BOX IN MY EXAMPLE. It’s ATMOSPHERE IS HEATED FROM THE INSIDE according to the GE hypothesis. The surface is the heat source inside the atmosphere (the box) which is surrounded by the very cold of space.
In view of that, if we wanted to cool the planet, we would paint the atmosphere with a high emissivity paint so that it could ‘shed’ it’s heat to space.
But since we can’t paint the atmosphere, what is the next best thing?
INJECT IT WITH HIGH EMISSIVITY LONG LIVED GAS MOLECULES…….CO2
So unless I’ve gone terribly wrong somewhere, this simple example possibly demonstrates that more CO2 should lead to a cooler planet.
I would really like to be straightened out on this by anyone who cares to take the time to reply.

January 6, 2012 5:51 pm

Coming from a very shallow understanding here (disclaimer!):
Is it simply largely TIME that is the difference between a rocky world with no atmosphere sitting in a full vacuum under a radiative heat source, and a twin world with a mixture of radiatively absorbent and (mainly) radiatively transparent gases.
The denser the radiatively transparent component is, (the energy of which can only be transferred by conduction), the longer the energy takes to escape the rock/atmosphere system.
So the ‘system’ equilibrates at a higher average temperature directly related to the concentration of radiatively transparent gases. (?!!)

Editor
January 6, 2012 6:01 pm

Joel Shore says:
January 6, 2012 at 12:33 pm

Willis says:

When there are two things that can radiate (surface and atmosphere) the situation is different. The total radiation from the two needs to equal the incoming radiation. So the temperature of the surface is no longer constrained.

Just to be clear, what Willis means is that the total radiation ***escaping the Earth’s atmosphere*** has to equal the incoming radiation. The point is that some of the radiation from the surface is now absorbed by the atmosphere and, while the atmosphere emits some radiation into space too, it emits less into space than the amount it absorbs from the surface.

Thanks, Joel, correct on both counts.
w.

The iceman cometh
Reply to  Willis Eschenbach
January 6, 2012 10:48 pm

I entered this debate with a real hope that there would be something in this new theory that would clarify my doubts about the greenhouse gas case. Thanks to you, Willis, and people like Joel and Ira, my understanding of our atmosphere and its interaction with Earth has been enormously enhanced, and I now understand the role of greenhouse gases far better than I did before. I am still not convinced that a wiffly few ppm of CO2 can have an effect of the claimed magnitude, but I am now much better equipped to show why that doubt has a a strong basis.
Incidentally, the graph of CO2 with time is usually shown starting around 1960 at 335ppm and rising steeply. I now plot it as a hockey stick going back to 1900 and about 298ppm, with a zero on the vertical axis. Suddenly the human contribution doesn’t seem as important! But it does form the blade of the stick from round about 1950, which is when we started to consume more fossil fuels than before. And it also illustrates how CO2 can have had nothing to do with the 1910-1940 warming or the 1940-1980 cooling. Try it!
Thanks for all your help.

Editor
January 6, 2012 6:12 pm

Richard M says:
January 6, 2012 at 12:51 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
January 6, 2012 at 12:00 pm

OK, folks, I’m gonna unilaterally declare victory here.

I’m with you. However, I would caution that you read my comments a little closer. What I have been saying is the Jelbring/Nikolov conjecture may have some interesting material to chew on. The idea that multiple planets can have their temperature profile (which I agree is based on the standard view of the GHE) described by a simple equation just begs for some physical explanation. My conjecture is that explanation is a maximum GHE.

I hate like poison when people do what you just did. LINK TO WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Like a fool I thought I could find what you were referring to. The closest I found was this:

The findings of Nikolov and Jelbring are essentially based on the fact that multiple planets show the same basic warming profile which appears to be based on the IGL rather than on the current greenhouse theory.

Is that what you are referring to? I don’t know, but I’m not fool enough to dig any further. I have no clue what the “warming profile” of a planet even looks like. Give me a citation to the planetary profiles and I’ll take a look. Otherwise, I’m done, and I was an idiot to try to track down whatever you are talking about.
Folks, if you object to what I or someone else has said, QUOTE IT. If you have said something in this thread and you want to refer to it, QUOTE IT. And if you are basing your claim on something external like a “planetary warming profile” or a paragraph in the Nikolov document, CITE IT, INCLUDING CHAPTER AND VERSE, AND LINK TO IT.
w.

Editor
January 6, 2012 6:28 pm

Bart says:
January 6, 2012 at 12:55 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
January 6, 2012 at 12:00 pm
“At that point … the planet is emitting more energy than it is absorbing. It’s absorbing 235W/m2, and emitting 250 W/m2.”
Only if you assume a blackbody distribution for the planetary surface. But, because it is in contact with the atmosphere, and conduction and convection are acting on the surface, it will not be a Planck distribution, and the assumption is not justified. What distribution will it be? It does not appear that anybody knows.
Sorry, the proclamation of victory is premature. We went into overtime, and the ultimate conclusion remains in flux (pun intended).

No, I’m not “assuming a blackbody distribution”. I am trying to understand how any process involving a transparent atmosphere could heat the planet above the bone-simple Stefan Boltzmann directly calculated blackbody temperature. That (as I understand it) is the claim that Jelbring/Nikolov are making—that their process will heat the planet above the theoretical blackbody temperature.
I note, however, that you can’t answer my questions either. That’s why I declared victory, because no one can answer them. You can’t tell me what Nikolov is claiming. You can’t explain how it’s supposed to work. Neither can anyone else.
Hey, don’t feel bad that you can’t explain it. I invited Ned Nikolov himself to explain his own theory, saying:

Dr. Nikolov, like Ira I can’t understand what you are doing. Could you give us a very, very short (a few sentences) explanation of the core idea of your work? Because as I indicated upstream, I find your descriptions totally impenetrable. What is your main point in brief?

… and he passed on the chance. Hardly inspires confidence in the man. I mean, this is likely the biggest public showing his theory will ever get. Nobody can even understand what he is claiming. If he doesn’t have the ability to explain his own theory, much less to defend it, I don’t foresee success.
And all of that, my friend, spells victory. I have not shown Nikolov to be incorrect. I have shown him to be impenetrable, and his ideas unexplainable, and thus not capable of even being discussed.
I would prefer to show he is wrong … but to date no one has shown up who understands Nikolov’s theory well enough to enable that to happen. Including Nikolov.
w.

Paul Bahlin
January 6, 2012 6:28 pm


You stated that outgoing radiation MUST equal incoming radiation and I have a question regarding that. I’m assuming you are basing that on conservation of energy but what happens when some portion of the incoming energy is converted to kinetic energy? Isn’t it true that some portion of the incoming energy is converted to kinetic energy in the planetary fluids?
If (and it might be a big if) that kinetic energy is not insignificant then all that is required is that the incoming must equal the sum of the outgoing and the kinetic? Or stated another way it is possible for a planet to have a radiative imbalance where the difference is represented by the work that has been done in the system by the incoming radiation.
Is there an assumption that this KE is trivially small or somehow gives all its energy up as conversion back to heat somehow? Isn’t the planet a massive heat engine?

Editor
January 6, 2012 6:33 pm

Joel Shore says:
January 6, 2012 at 1:27 pm

By the way, as a light-hearted aside, here is a fun proof of silliness of a claim by “I can do it too”: There was some guy named Richard Wallace …

Sweet justice!
w.

Editor
January 6, 2012 6:39 pm

Dan in Nevada says:
January 6, 2012 at 4:01 pm

Regarding Willis’s thought experiment comparing an airless planet to one that had a significant non-GHG atmosphere, can someone explain why the outgoing radiation (watts/mtr2) would have to correspond directly to temperature (Willis seems to be saying this; Stephen seems to be disagreeing)?

The relationship between the two is that if a “blackbody” (a perfect emitter and absorber of radiant energy) is at a certain temperature, it will radiate away a certain amount of energy. At temperatures typical of the earth’s surface and atmosphere, that radiation is in the infrared spectrum.
For a blackbody, the number of watts per square metre emitted at a certain temperature is given by 5.67E-8 * T^4, where T is the temperature in kelvins.
Of course, no real objects are “blackbodies”, it’s a theoretical construct. But in the infrared range, the earth absorbs about 95% of the energy that hits it. So for first order analysis like we’re doing here, it’s usually regarded as a blackbody.
w.

u.k.(us)
January 6, 2012 6:54 pm

What’s with all this blackbody theory ?
We are living in the experiment, and can’t seem to determine the temperature.

jae
January 6, 2012 7:12 pm

Willis, you say:
“OK, folks, I’m gonna unilaterally declare victory here.
Why?
Because:
1) Nobody has been able to explain the mechanism whereby Nikolov says that planetary temperatures can be raised above the blackbody temperature for the planet.”
WOW. Average temperatures on the moon are higher than the “blackbody temperature for that planetoid.” Do you have absolutely no concept of “heat storage?”
Then you say, later:
“I would prefer to show he is wrong … but to date no one has shown up who understands Nikolov’s theory well enough to enable that to happen. Including Nikolov.”
Yes, he should come forth. But he probably doesn’t because he does not have much more to say, since he is not presenting a “theory,” Willis. He is just presenting basic physics and data. Like scientists do. And the empirical gods are ALL with him. How else do you (or even the ever-present bloviating AGW nuts) explain the simple facts that he presents regarding the other planetoids? How else do you explain why EARTH did not “melt” when OCO concentrations were 2000 ppm? HOW do you explain the FACT that Earth has not warmed for the last 15 years, despite continually rising levels of the dangerous plant food?
And, of course, he is not alone. Huffman, as obnoxious as he is, has also presented a similar rebuttal of the “atmospheric radiative greenhouse concept.”
Sorry, Willis, et. al., but it takes far more “belief” to accept current “theory” than to accept the facts presented by these authors…..
(Disclaimer: I have not read all the comments, so maybe I’ve already been put down; if so, this message will self-destruct).
And then we have this disinformation from TF:
“PPS “Same at night, BTW; please don’t fall for the “cold desert night” crap)”. Data here http://www.rssweather.com/climate/Georgia/Atlanta/ and here http://www.rssweather.com/climate/Arizona/Phoenix/ shows that the difference between monthly average highs and monthly average lows is consistently greater in Phoenix (21 to 23 F) than in Atlanta (18 to 20 F), refuting your claim that Phoenix does not cool more at night.
Also http://geography.about.com/library/faq/blqzcolddesert.htm and http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_it_cold_in_the_desert_at_night and the personal experience of many readers.
So everyone, please don’t fall for the “please don’t fall for the ‘cold desert night’ crap)” crap.”
TYPICAL OF ALL AGW affectionados, that response has nothing to do with my comment. Strawmen, strawwomen, strawchildren!

Dan in Nevada
January 6, 2012 7:29 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
January 6, 2012 at 6:39 pm
Willis,
Thank you for your response. What I’m having a difficult time with is the concept of “temperature = radiated power (more or less)” (my paraphrase). I thought it was much more indirect. I can tell from a lot of the comments that I’m not alone.
Anyway, I’m learning a lot just watching the discussion, so thanks again.
Dan

Richard M
January 6, 2012 7:35 pm

Willis Eschenbach says:
January 6, 2012 at 6:12 pm
I hate like poison when people do what you just did. LINK TO WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Like a fool I thought I could find what you were referring to. The closest I found was this:
[The findings of Nikolov and Jelbring are essentially based on the fact that multiple planets show the same basic warming profile which appears to be based on the IGL rather than on the current greenhouse theory.]
Is that what you are referring to? I don’t know, but I’m not fool enough to dig any further. I have no clue what the “warming profile” of a planet even looks like. Give me a citation to the planetary profiles and I’ll take a look. Otherwise, I’m done, and I was an idiot to try to track down whatever you are talking about.

My posts have been interspersed with yours these last couple of days. They are not anywhere but right here … I’m sorry I assumed you were actually reading this thread.
Typically you can use Ctl-F to activate the find function (at least on IE) and you can search through all of the posts of an individual in seconds. Just type in their name as the search argument. Since all my statements have been within this thread or refer to the UTC conjecture being discussed, I’m not sure what else I would reference that would get you any closer.
My use of “warming profile” was meant to be generic. That is, just a descriptive term for the GHE where it might differ somewhat based on the actual physical components of a planet. It’s the warming due to the standard GHE. That’s why I used this term, but I can understand how that might have been confusing if you didn’t understand my primary thrust. You could have just asked.
My primary thrust is trying to determine if there is a maximum limit to the real GHE, potentially based on equation 3.3 of the UTC. I’m trying to take something out of the UTC that may be useful.
I would have thought a maximum limit on the GHE would perk any skeptic’s interest. It would end the entire debate.
Sorry if I wasted your time.

jae
January 6, 2012 8:07 pm

BTW, Folkerts: Where the hell is the NREL data that used to be online?

January 6, 2012 8:21 pm

Re quick search with “control F”
Simply highlight the text you want to seek …. THEN hit ctrl F – it fills in the seach field automatically.
God knows we already all type the same things too much…..

Bob Fernley-Jones
January 6, 2012 9:47 pm

Willis,
Oh and another thing; Ira in his lead article used an analogy of pressure vessels to argue what might be going on in an unrestrained atmosphere having rather different reducing pressure with altitude and a lapse rate etc not demonstrable in those pressure vessels. I think it was a crap analogy.
Was sprechen sie?
Ira,
If you sensibly respond to some earlier comments of mine to you, I may address stuff directly to you from hereon.

Editor
January 6, 2012 11:12 pm

jae says:
January 6, 2012 at 7:12 pm

Willis, you say:

“OK, folks, I’m gonna unilaterally declare victory here.
Why?
Because:
1) Nobody has been able to explain the mechanism whereby Nikolov says that planetary temperatures can be raised above the blackbody temperature for the planet.”

WOW. Average temperatures on the moon are higher than the “blackbody temperature for that planetoid.” Do you have absolutely no concept of “heat storage?”

WOW. Quite the opposite. The blackbody temperature of the moon is TSI / 4 * (1-albedo) ≈ 342 * (1 – 0.07) ≈ 318 W/m2. This is about 1°C, just above freezing.
The average temperature of the moon is way below that. This is because of the slow rotation of the moon, coupled with the T^4 relationship with radiation.
w.
PS—In any case, “heat storage” does not increase the maximum possible temperature.

January 6, 2012 11:13 pm

Tim Folkerts (Jan. 5 2012 at 6:55 pm):
The authority of those thousands of trained “scientists” is tempered by the fact that in the 100+ years in which they have operated they have yet to state a theory that makes falsifiable claims.

1 30 31 32 33 34 41