Guest post by Ric Werme
Today is the customer test of Andrea Rossi’s 1 MW fusion reactor in his facility in Bologna, Italy. While Rossi initially expected to provide streaming video of the test, the customer nixed that because they didn’t want their people on a public video. (The customer has still not been identified.) Rossi also promised hourly updates during the test, but that didn’t happen, nor did I expect it too. In any major customer attending test, you just don’t take time off for that – the customer is far more important today than is the rest of the world!
I did promise in Tips & Notes to create this post this evening to provide a discussion forum, and a few details have made it out to warrant this post.
Bottom line – the customer will buy the reactor. The only thing that looks like a data point is that it was producing 470kW with zero heating power in (self-sustain mode). Given that one metric for a successful test was to produce at least 6X the input power, it certainly passes that test!
Rossi did get one blog post up (edited to convert all-caps to proper-caps and fix an obvious typo):
Andrea Rossi
October <28th, 2011 at 10:37 AM
First information regarding the 1 MW plant test:
We started regularly the test this morning . Everything is going well so far. The 1 MW E-Cat is working in self sustaining.
Tonight I will publish the non secret report that the customer will release.
Warm regards, I have to return to the plant. Sorry, I cannot answer to the many comments I am receiving. I will publish them probably I will never find the time to answer.
Warmest regards to all,
Andrea Rossi
That’s pretty much all there is from Italy so far. I don’t know if people measured 1 MW in powered mode, I assume somewhat more information will be released later this evening.
The naysayers are going strong, with comments like suggesting the customers consultants are in on the scam, and many calls to denounce the secrecy behind this test. Hey guys, this is a sales test, not a public event.
Even Jed Rothwell is upset:
[Vo]:Dismaying rumors about October 28 test
Jed Rothwell Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:34:00 -0700
I have heard that observers of today’s tests are only being allowed to look at the equipment for a few minutes at a time, and they are not being introduced to the engineers who are taking the data. They are not being given a chance to establish the bona fides of these engineers, or to confirm that they are fully independent from Rossi.
If this is true then it goes without saying these results will have zero credibility.
If this is true then Rossi has once again taken a golden opportunity to convince the world his claims are true, and used it to make himself look like a crook.
I hope this is not true.
Whatever happens, I am sure we will get the full story. The reporters there can be relied upon to tell us the truth. If they are not allowed to interview the engineers and they cannot independently confirm the data, they will say so. I am sure Rossi knows they will tell the truth, so it seems unlikely he would impose such outrageous conditions. Unfortunately, he has often done outrageous things, such as telling people they are not allowed to measure the temperature with their own instruments.
– Jed
I’ll update this later tonight. In the meantime, discuss away, but please keep in mind this was not a science demonstration, not a public demonstration, but a step along the path to the first sale.
Also, keep in mind what this isn’t – it’s not an efficient electrical power system. The output is hot water or low pressure steam. While that can be turned into electricity, thermodynamics says it can’t be very efficient. There are plenty of applications for this sort of process heat, and that makes a fine initial target market.
Other sources of information include:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/News:October_28%2C_2011_Test_of_the_One_Megawatt_E-Cat
Sterling Allan from PES is on site.
http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/10/e-day-thread-rossis-1-mw-e-cat-plant-tested-by-first-customer/
One of the first independent blogs on the E-Cat.
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=516#comments
This is Rossi’s blog, where he expected to post hourly updates. He approves posts there, and he’s been too busy to do that.
Updates
Here are links to reports from two people who were observed the test:
Sterling D. Allan (who was present), with Hank Mills from Pure Energy Systems News reported:
It ran for 5.5 hours producing 470 kW, while in self-looped mode. That means no substantial external energy was required to make it run, because it kept itself running, even while producing an excess of nearly half a megawatt. Rossi explained the reasons for this in the presentation he gave, which I videotaped and will be posting later.
Early in the day with a glitch showing up, Rossi said that they had to make a decision about whether to go for 1 MW output, not in self-sustain mode, or with self-sustain mode at a lower power level. The customer opted to go for the self-sustain mode.
Mats Lewan of NyTeknik reported:
According to the customer’s controller, Domenico Fioravanti, the plant released 2,635 kWh during five and a half hours of self sustained mode, which is equivalent to an average power of 479 kilowatts – just under half the promised power of one megawatt.
Rossi explained this with the customer’s priority to achieve self sustained mode, which supposedly makes the process more difficult to control than when electrical power is supplied to support the reaction.
“We had to decrease the power during self sustained mode as the temperature rose too much”, Rossi said after the test.
UPDATE: I’ve allowed Ric Werme to post articles on this, with trepidation (as he noted in his first and second article on it), on the outside chance that there’s something of value here. I wrote in the first article:
Foreword: I gave Ric Werme permission to do this essay. I don’t have any doubt that the original Cold Fusion research was seriously flawed. That said, this recent new development using a different process is getting some interest, so let’s approach it skeptically to see what merit it has, if any. – Anthony
After learning of some background on the inventor (which I wasn’t aware of before today h/t to Lubos)I have very large doubts now. While Wikipedia isn’t the best reference, if there wasn’t some truth here in this reference, I expect it would be removed as libelous:
Petroldragon was an environmental technology company, which through the 90’s aimed to develop oil, coal, and gas from organic waste. It was founded by, and used patents of Andrea Rossi, and Sergio Focardi. In the late 90’s the company was found guilty of dumping environmental toxins, as well as tax fraud. Its assets were seized. [1]
News of the Rossi procedure, patented in Italy, was reported by major newspapers. Jimmy Carter showed his interest in the technology, and offered Rossi a permanent entry visa to the United States.[1] After ten months’ work and a financial investment of half a billion Lire, Petroldragon had a facility that produced twenty tons of fuel oil a day, transforming one hundred tons of organic waste.
In 1993, the company created the Petroldragon Formula 3 racing team – racecars powered by waste-derived fuel that were able to compete with cars powered by the most common petroleum products.
In the late 90’s the company was found guilty of dumping environmental toxins, as well as tax fraud. Its assets were seized, as well as Rossi’s personal assets, and Rossi was arrested and imprisoned.
The track record of the man (combined with the current cloak of secrecy) suggests that this may very well be a scam. Unless there’s some open access and independent documentation of success, I’m going to prohibit any further articles. As I’ve said in comments, we try out ideas here. Based on what I know now, I think this one needs to be put aside as unworkable, and very possibly a scam until such time it is proven. When/if it is proven as scam or factual, we’ll have another report. -Anthony
Update by Ric:
I told Anthony I’d pull some stuff together looking at the allegations in better detail. It appears the only decent source of information is from a web site Rossi created a couple years ago to address the Petroldragon saga. The events in question mostly occurred before the Internet, so there isn’t as much out there as I thought. If you believe Rossi stuck Italy with huge amount of abandoned waste, you won’t believe Rossi’s explanation. If any Italian readers can comment on the events from their memory, please do.
Rossi’s web site is http://ingandrearossi.com/ . While there is an English translation there, a better one is at Steve Krivit’s http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/RossiPetroldragonStory.shtml
A timeline seems to be the best way to summarize things:
1971 to 1996: Created Dragon, a division of his family’s business and
manufactured waste incineration and smoke purification plants.
1978: Awarded patent for a process to convert organic waste material to oil.
Started Petroldragon to commercialize it.
198?: US President Jimmy Carter offered Rossi a permanent entry visa to the
United States to develop the process in the US.
1990 (this year doesn’t make sense): Bought Omar Refinery to process oil from Petroldragon into products for
sale.
1987: Raw materials for Petroldragon had been considered “secondary refuse matter” They were reclassified “toxic waste” as were all products derived from them. “In a very short time, all equipment was sequestered. The government then determined that tanks used for storing incoming raw materials were illegal dumps of toxic waste.”
“What followed was Rossi’s arrest and imprisonment, without any possibility to save the companies. The massive media smear campaign was successful in suddenly wiping out companies whose brand value was estimated at 50 billion lire (around 30-35 million USD in 1987) and which employed 150 people.”
The saga continues on with references to infringing on petroleum based producers and crime organizations entering the waste management business.
He continues “In the past 17 years, Rossi has been in 56 trials, forcing him into deep debt because of the financial disaster, and it is still not completely paid off.
Of all 56 prosecutions, the ones which led to imprisonment ended with acquittals; only 5 of the prosecutions for tax crime ended with convictions (with some custody imprisonments). All of the other prosecutions ended with acquittal or for statute of limitation. The same Petroldragon and Omar customers, even those who suffered factory seizures or prosecutions because of involvement with Rossi’s companies, testified as witnesses in favor of the defendant.” (The customers had products derived from “toxic waste” and those without waste handling permits were now in violation of the 1987 law.)
2000: During a journey back to Italy from the U.S., when he landing at Rome airport, he was served an arrest warrant for bankruptcy of Omar company and immediately imprisoned.
2009: Went back to the U.S. permanently and he directed the development of a new energy source. (I don’t think this refers to the E-Cat.)
As for the gold trafficking, all I can find points to an ingandrearossi.com page that is only in Italian. The Google translation is as difficult to read as any, but Rossi says the gold was recovered in the Petroldragon effort and claims “And documents deemed illegal sales of gold? All regular! Documents for import and export of precious? All regular! Cash payments? The money laundering? No trace of irregularity, because all economic transactions were made with credit and non-transferable checks, never cash!
The prosecution of Ariano Irpino, even myself, and acquitted all defendants in the investigation, not even get to trial on the grounds that: ‘… lack the evidence necessary to sustain the allegations in a process …’.”
So, was Rossi imprisoned? Yes. Did he break the law? Yes, but mainly because the law changed out from under him. Was he convicted? Yes, on less than 10% of the charges, and they were tax law violations, not a confidence scheme. Is he an evil person out to pull off the scam of the century? Probably not, as he seems to have not run afoul of the law before 1987. Does all this mean we should throw up our hands and write off Rossi’s LENR invention. I don’t think so, though it certainly adds a red flag. How about all the other evidence supporting LENR? I don’t think so. Does Lubos Motl know more about LENR than any of us? Probably, but I’m not convinced he’s right. Is Rossi or LENR too controversial for WUWT? Possibly, but I think it should remain because there are too many experiments with interesting results to be able to dismiss it.
-Ric
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This project contains all the elements that are normally craved by the MSM:
– colorful, main character, with gossipy past
– fear factor, much usage of fear invoking words such as “nuclear”, “fusion”, “radiation”
– messianic potential, it could “save” mankind
– greed, lots of money involved
– international intrigue
– high tech, sci-fi ingredients
The fact that the MSM is absent, sets off, all my spider senses. It makes no sense. Such a event, fake or otherwise, would normally be splashed across every TV, newspaper and magazine. Corporations would be buying commercial time, around such publicity.
Simply as a human interest story, this is right up there, near the top.
That is just one red flag, in one direction! There are so many red flags, in so many directions, it has become absurd and ridiculous.
On the other hand, isn’t that exactly, what one would expect, with the introduction of a device, that would completely rewrite our industrial paradigm (as well as a few scientific and economic models). I would expect similar turbulence and perturbation, if I were to announce, the introduction of a cheap anti-gravity device.
A lot of reputations are also at stake. “Impossible” is not a safe word for physicists to utter. GK
@max Hugoson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Energy_Catalyzer
User: Kv1970
“Been present at the oct6 testing of the device, I confirm a 100% certain that the average outflowing water was about 8-10°C warmer than the inflowing water on a 600l/h basis, and this for several hours. There were indeed some errors, but from a technical point of view (and having quadruple checked the thermometers after the test in the full range of the measured temperatures: they measured equal and within a precision range of 0,1 °C), . . . Besides that, multiple disciplines of scientists were present, and observed their items, and also confirmed a successful evidence of controllable and stable nuclear reactions that were happening inside the reactor, by measuring…. . I cannot talk about that.”
Mors stupebit, et natura says:
October 31, 2011 at 2:52 pm
@max Hugoson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Energy_Catalyzer
User: Kv1970
“Been present at the oct6 testing of the device, I confirm a 100% certain that the average outflowing water was about 8-10°C warmer than the inflowing water on a 600l/h basis…
So by the numbers provided(167 gm per sec heated 10K) actual output is about 7 kW not the claimed 470 kW. Why on earth would they claim 470 Kw when their numbers show 7 kW? Sounds to me as though they aren’t bad, just mad.
The test in question took place on Oct 28th. These numbers have NOTHING to do with the Oct 6th test. Capish?
acementhead says:
October 31, 2011 at 5:58 pm (Edit)
The Oct 6 test used a single module, IIRC, it was a newer design and smaller than the previous tests.
100+ plus of those modules are connected in a series/parallel configuration in the 1 MW reactor.
Why not 700 kW? The customer opted to stick with the self sustaining mode instead of the power mode. There’s an inadequate comment about the system generatting too much heat to permit the full 1 MW. My speculation on that is the first stages in a series were running too hot making it difficult to control the output. Rossi hasn’t offered a schematic show how the modules are plumbed, so I don’t want to spend much time trying to elucidate that from various comments in Rossi’s blog.
Here are a few snippets from comments at http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=516&cpage=6#comments and neighboring pages. One thing that is immensely frustrating about following Rossi’s work is that he leaves little tidbits here and there in the comment section of various posts. The posts typically have nothing to do with the comments. Rossi’s comments are usually answers to previous questions, I’ve left the names off. [I’ve added a few parenthetical comments and blank lines].
His comments explain a few non-scientific things. Typhoon and Lubos won’t find any satisfaction.
October 28th, 2011 at 5:33 PM
HERE IS THE DRAFT OF REPORT OF THE 1 MW E-CAT TEST of October 28th
http://db.tt/wu4OLbgk
PLEASE EXCUSE US FOR THE EVIDENT TYPOS, BUT IT IS PARTIALLY HANDWRITTEN AFTER MIDNIGHT FROM VERY TIRED PERSONS.
October 30th, 2011 at 5:56 PM
[Question: How many 1 megawatt plants can you sell in one year do you think?]
1- From 30 to 100 for the first year is what we are already ready to make, but we will get exponentially faster in time
[Question: When is the next sell?]
2- done
[Question: When will the home plants be available for pursued [sic, I assume purchase]?]
3- this is a more complicated issue, because we need complex certifications
October 31st, 2011 at 9:12 AM
The dissipator [from videos, these are electric fans blowing through radiators] has been designed by me and the person who leaded the test, an engineer of NATO ( a Colonel) who has 30 years of experience in thermopower plants and thermodynamical systems.
It has been designed to dissipate 4 times the necessary energy. All in the tested plant was redundant: we had 2 power generators, so that if one should fail the second would automatically had been put in operation, we had 4 pumps instead of 2, so that each pump would have a reserve, we had 2 control panels, so that ant electronic shortcoming would have been overcome by a reserve, etc: I simply could not fail, so we foresaw any possibility of failure and prepared a back up for any of it. The day before I wrote in this blog “we are ready”: when we say a thing you can bet on it.
October 31st, 2011 at 9:21 AM
Dr Bianchini, of the Bologna University, has only measured the radiations outside the reactors, for safety issues, and compared them to the background: there have not been significant differences between the background and the measured radiations outside the reactors during the operation.
I do not give any information about the radiations inside the reactors, because such radiations are confidential.
G P [N.B. – this is the only comment that is not from Rossi. Annoyingly terse answers follow.]
October 31st, 2011 at 11:17 AM
Dear Mr. Rossi,
I have followed for some time with passion and hope your endeavours, and hope you will be able to change things for the better.
If you have time could you let me know:
1- How will you be able to build between 30 to 100 plants in 2012 if it is going to take 3 months to deliver the second one.
2- Is the second customer requiring the same level of secrecy as the first one? I am asking you this because all the skeptics/snakes will argue that you are just buying more time here (without any real buyer in sight), so if you don’t have a nondisclosure agreement as strict as the one with the first customer, you would be doing yourself and all people that are supporting you a great favour giving a little more detail.
Thank you in advance for the consideration.
October 31st, 2011 at 11:20 AM
Dear GP:
1- we are ready for 30-100 units per year
2- no
October 31st, 2011 at 12:37 PM
Dear Strat: we sell the 1 MW plants at 2000Euro/kW.
November 1st, 2011 at 3:28 AM
1- The 350 power generator (not 500) has continued to work to give power to the heat dissipators and to the water pumps, which, of course, had to work also during the self-sustained mode
2- In order to perpare the 1 MW test we charged nothing before the start up, but the hydrogen, of which the consultant of the Customer has taken due record, weighting the hydrogen tank before and after the test. [In images of the handwritten notes on the test, see the first note, they report the starting mass as 13604.5 kg and ending mass as 13602.8 kg. First, I think they meant grams, not kilograms; second, I’ve never met a scale accurate to 6 figures but they must exist for gravimetric studies; third, I doubt all the hydrogen used was consumed I don’t think it’s worth doing the mc^2 math; fourth, I wish Rossi would use a smaller tank!]
Why? The physical process that Rossi claims is occurring is public knowledge – It’s part of the public patent:
The nuclear reaction that is claimed, by Rossi et al, to be occurring in the nickel lattice
Ni58 + p → Cu59
Copper nucleus Cu59 decays with positron (e+) and neutrino (ν) emission in Ni59 nucleus according to
Cu59 → Ni59 + ν + e+
Then (e+) annichilates with (e-) in two gamma-rays
e- + e+ → γ + γ
is occurring,
then the basic physics of the detection, or not, of back-to-back [by conservation of momentum] emission of 511keV gamma photons [ γ ] should have been the first step in any proof of concept.
The fact that Rossi is claiming that this key measurement, which would address the skeptic’s questions, is not being done because “such radiations are confidential” is a massive red flag.
Scam.
“Why not 700 kW? The customer opted to stick with the self sustaining mode instead of the power mode.”
Ah, I see. Come on Ric – don’t make any of this sound as if it was fact. Everything from the unknown “customer” and a “NATO Colonel” to different operation modes and configurations of Rossi’s boxes is pure speculation. Quote him, if you must, but don’t write about it like it was anything real and you (or anybody else for that matter) could explain what the exact difference between “self sustaining” and “power mode” is when nobody even knows how any of it supposedly works. Or do you?
Dagobert says:
November 1, 2011 at 8:08 am
I nearly included a comment about Rossi’s comments might be from a lying scumbucket scammer, but it sounded too snarky and redundant anyway (I used it in a previous reply to you).
I also nearly added a comment about the NATO colonel, but figured decided it wasn’t worth the attention. I have no idea why Rossi pointed that out. Perhaps Italians appreciate NATO more than Americans do. They certainly must have a larger presence in Italy than here.
By now I figured everyone would take comments from Rossi’s blog with a large grain of salt. I almost edited that comment to say you think it’s speculation, but a more accurate disclaimer would be to note the blog is real, is probably edited by Rossi, certainly filters out critical comments, and all comments may be from a lying scumbucket scammer.
I can explain some of the difference between the “self sustaining” and “power” modes, but I don’t know how the former is regulated. Early on the lying scumbucket scammer said the self-sustaining mode was too dangerous and difficult to shutdown, I’d have to speculate a bit on what changes he did to control it. I get the sense you aren’t interested in anything I might say about it. Besides, I think it’s more an engineering problem than nuclear science, anyway.
From http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/11/01/britain-pulls-the-plug-on-solar-subsidies/#comment-784451 comes a link to a odd site that should annoy everyone. Serious cheerleading and irrational exuberance.
http://www.scoop.it/t/rossi-s-ecat?page=1
Typhoon, you do realize that the patent you are talking about does not include the proprietary catalyst. This catalyst can be identified easily via it’s unique gamma spectrum. Are you making the case that there should be no private inventions and we have a right to know. Let’s concern ourselves with function (prove it works) before demanding trade secrets. Are you demanding Coke reveals it’s secret formula, or that Cadbury reveal how it gets it’s toffee into a Cadbury bar. GK
we have one video of rossi waving his arms at an assembly of pipes, tubes and wires. we also have a number of different pictures of rossi and friends posing in front of what is obviously highvolume airconditioning equipment. the control panel that he is in front of in one of the pictures is a standard control/recording panel available for not that much money (in industrial terms).
the heat delivered, as measured by temperatures of inlet and outlet water flows is about the same as that “delivered” by an airconditioning plant. in the situation that i believe is happening they are using the chill water inlet temperature as the low end reading and the “hot water” discharge temperature as the high end. the temperature spread and the gpm are consistant with airconditioning service.
(in industrial air conditioning water is “chilled” at a remote “chiller plant” and pumped to the air handlers where it is passed through coils where warm air (at ambient temperature ) gives up its heat to the chilled water (which then becomes “hot water”). which is then pumped back to the chiller plant.
if the ambient air temperature drops below the chilled water temperature then the differential will drop off and the “great machine” will stop working. (probably about an hour after sundown.)
rossi has to get his observers away from the instruments before then as it is entirely possible that his readings could go negative and that could be disastrous.
C
G. Karst:
you forget that the catalyist is the fabulous UNOBTAINIUM which is only available from rossi or his liscencees.
there was once a mine for that stuff in colorado in the 1800’s but turned out to be fools gold shotgunned into a hardrock tunnel in a flimflam gold mine.
C
If it was only available from Rossi, then there would be no need for a patent NOR secrecy.
Your “explanations” are different from hand waving… HOW? GK
“I get the sense you aren’t interested in anything I might say about it. ”
No. If there was anything to say that would make things clear beyond the unsubstantial mishmash coming from Rossi himself, I’d be delighted to hear it – as I’m sure would you. I just think your willingness to believe in Rossi not being a fraud (or at least a charlatan) is fueled by enthusiasm for what might be, rather than logic – no matter how much part of your brain raises all sorts of flags.
(And sorry if I’m coming across cynical, clumsy or just plain stupid – english is not my first language. No offense.).
G. Karst says:
It doesn’t matter if there is a “secret catalyst”, secret spaghetti sauce, or if is due to tiny angels shaped like Sophia Loren that push the proton past the Coulomb barrier.
The claim is that, due to one of the above, the following set of nuclear reactions occur:
1/ Ni58 + p → Cu59
again due to “secret catalyst”, secret spaghetti sauce, or tiny angels shaped like Sophia Loren.
2/ Cu59 → Ni59 + ν + e+
3/ e- + e+ → γ + γ
[Back-to-back 511keV photon from electron-positron annihilation.]
The basic physics of the detection, or not, of back-to-back [by conservation of momentum] emission of 511keV gamma photons [ γ ] should have been the first step in any proof of concept.
The fact that Rossi is claiming that this key measurement, which would address the skeptic’s questions, is not being done because “such radiations are confidential” is a massive red flag.
Scam.
No. If it can be verified that 50W input results in 500W output – That would be proof of concept. Rossi claims to have built an energy device and has poorly demonstrated it, for the scientific community’s edification. Wait, this demonstration’s purpose was set by a customer’s requirement, for proof of concept, NOT the scientific community’s. It’s called “free enterprise” and I am sure, I don’t, have to explain the concept – to you. Free enterprise is the last refuge of the truly free.
What you want is proof of the underlying hypothesis. That is a science requirement and like all hypothesis it will become theory when it’s verified, and repeatable. A private, commercial operation has no desire to delay application, while satisfying academia’s rigid demands.
But don’t worry, as soon as gamma is demonstrated, the full might of the NRA, U.N. IAEA, will come down on them, with multiple license requirements. As you know, all gamma sources MUST be licensed.
Of course, none of this matters if it is just another scam. If so than I have only one thing left to say… NEXT ITEM PLEASE! GK
G.Karst
Sir, i forgot to display the scarsam on and sarcasm off flags in my post about colorado unobtanimium.
hope it doesn’t pull any wheels off of your cart.
C
G. Karst says:
Not only are you not right, you’re not even wrong.
Now Steorn is producing a water heater too. Looks like there is already competition in the free energy world.
http://pesn.com/2011/11/08/9601951_Steorn_Announces_HephaHeat_Oveurnity_Technology/
My summary of notes that caught my fancy from Rossi’s blog, see http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/10/28/test-of-rossis-1-mw-e-cat-fusion-system-apparently-successful/#comment-784376 above, are continued at Anthony’s magic coffee pot dig at http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/11/27/andrea-rossi-and-the-magic-coffee-pot-reactor/#comment-812038