From Al Gore’s blog, a clear signal that he’s lost it. Like McKibben, he’s like a moth attracted to a flame, looking for it to jumpstart his own failed movement.
Thoughts on Occupy Wall Street October 12, 2011 : 5:07 PM
For the past several weeks I have watched and read news about the Occupy Wall Street protests with both interest and admiration. I thought The New York Times hit the nail on the head in an editorial Sunday:
“The message — and the solutions — should be obvious to anyone who has been paying attention since the economy went into a recession that continues to sock the middle class while the rich have recovered and prospered. The problem is that no one in Washington has been listening.”
“At this point, protest is the message: income inequality is grinding down that middle class, increasing the ranks of the poor, and threatening to create a permanent underclass of able, willing but jobless people. On one level, the protesters, most of them young, are giving voice to a generation of lost opportunity.”
From the economy to the climate crisis our leaders have pursued solutions that are not solving our problems, instead they propose policies that accomplish little. With democracy in crisis a true grassroots movement pointing out the flaws in our system is the first step in the right direction. Count me among those supporting and cheering on the Occupy Wall Street movement.
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Regarding
The Ghost Of Big Jim Cooley says:
October 14, 2011 at 12:16 am
David says: October 13, 2011 at 1:51 pm…
“I got it here http://econproph.com/2011/04/17/tax-rates-are-historically-low/
“the top 400 households in America pay only 16-17% average tax rate” Perhaps I could have worded it better, but the underlying statement is still true. The rich paying 17% tax is a recipe for future unrest in the US, sir.”
Thank you it helps clarify your view. A few problems with the article. For many mega rich their tax on capital gains actually reduces their marginal 35% rate, wheras for most it would raise it. Capital gains on dividens for instance, are in many ways, a tax on an after tax profit. US coorporate tax rates are quite high which reduces income to individuals.
The article fails to point out state taxes and sales tax, as well as a host of federal and state and local fees/taxes. The top two percent of earners in this country supply 60% of the venture capital, which unlike funds to Obama that only create more drain on the tax payers and temporary jobs, create real jobs that produce wealth.
It is true that executive compensation has skyrocketed for the top, and personnaly I do not think they earn it for the most part. However it is such a small percent of America that to double the tax on the mega rich would only run this country for two or three days in a year. The real problem is that Govt is way to large and incredibly wasteful, with Govt employees recieving far better compensation then non govt employees, and as my second post illustrated, govt compensation had grown at almost four times the rate of private sector compensation since 2000,
Also OWS people think they can solve a corrupt Govt, with more Govt. Personally I do not think corporations should be allowed any lobby powers. All requests for legislation should be done via open forum public internet posting period.
Capitalism is in many respects fundamentally honest. It is an admittance that personal gain is never absent, even in the most altruistic, and so capitalism makes no pretense of removing personal gain. It also makes no moral judgment of personal gain being bad. It is a neutral admittance that desire for personal gain exists, and cannot be legislated away. Social systems that vainly seek to legislate selflessness only condense the personal gain aspect into the most powerful people within the government, and in removing liberty and personal power from the common man, engender helplessness in the masses.
The one who prospers in capitalism has the freedom to become a philanthropist, or the freedom to use his wealth in a narrow selfish way. Capitalism however has a basic tenet: the Unites States’ recognition of the right to seek self gain, (capitalism) combined with the fact that we are a “republic” guaranteeing freedom from tyranny of other groups or from the tyranny of the majority, be that majority religious, political, corporate, or a combination thereof, is highly moral. However in empowering the individual there must be a strong co-commitment element of self-responsibility. One cannot expect the protections such a society enables, without both self responsibility and offering some form of service back to that society.
The love of power for the purpose of subjugating others for one’s own end cannot be removed by any system. It just operates less effectively within a system built expressly for protection from such tyranny. The responsibility of the US form of government is to prevent the formation of such tyrannies: Corporate monopolies that unfairly drive out competition, lobby groups looking for special privileges, banking methods that rig the monetary system and allow leverage of assets tantamount to gambling, fractional reserve banking on steroids, government decisions making risk public but profit private, government sponsored enterprises that, under direct supervision of government regulators do all of the above, are not caused by a capitalist / republic, but are a sick perversion of it caused by the love of power over others, and the lack of wisdom as revealed by satama dharma. It is the failure of the US government to police the above which is dereliction of their primary responsibility, the protection of individual freedom and power, from the tyranny of those with group power.ant stating that even the purely selfish accumulation of material goods, if acquired in the honest production of a good or service of value to others in society, produces good for that society.
Maybe Al gore should don the pink gloves and join the protesters and clean up the park that they’ve been “occupying” in a repugnant manner. There should be plenty or brooms, mops, etc. available. so Al doesn’t have to puncture his fortunes.
@Sun Spot says: October 13, 2011 at 7:39 pm
“You’re wrong, it does follow. Unions set the pay grade of the middle class, eliminate the unionized worker and you eliminate the middle class (it’s called class warfare).”
The point Smokey was trying to make was not about unions in general but about the difference between private and public sector unions.
Private sector unions: Negotiate with the company, cannot demand more than the company can pay or they will be out of their jobs.
Public sector unions: Negotiate with politicians who are given huge political donations by these same unions. The “company” in this case is the rest of the populace in the state, they negotiate with the people. Can demand anything they want because the state can always raise taxes, there is no cap on state “earnings”.
You nailed it, my brother. I cannot speak for other countries, but these welfare malcontents cannot ever succeed here in the USA. They may mess up the cities which are already cesspools of Socialism anyway and whose residents have mostly asked for this, but once they move into the free country their movement will end rather quickly, perhaps with a bang.
Another brilliant point which gets to the heart of the matter. These Socialists are not just an alternative point of view, they are common criminals that due to a quirk of fate, the modern civilized world does not punish them as in the past. It would appear that they, like young undisciplined children, are intent on pressing this temporary advantage to the absolute limit in order to find out just what punishment awaits them.
In the USA these Socialist malcontents usually show up in the polls at 25% to 30% where they hide under the monikers of Liberal or Progressive. That is the bottom of the well of the Democratic Socialist party. When they said 99%, they must have meant: Our movement is 99% Socialist, we have a few regular dummycrats for show.
This is a profound point and it was worth repeating. Public Sector Unions give us the scenario where union members represented by union mafia bosses are ‘negotiating’ with other union members in the Local, State and Federal governments for money taken from the taxpayers. It is a whole new level of corruption. They are vultures picking the bones of the taxpayers and must be destroyed.
Yes. This is the mathematical destruction of society. And they know full well at the end of the day what will happen when the number of parasites exceeds the number of hosts. So we must face the fact that their intent (the Socialists) is to destroy society and freedom itself, once they run out of our money.
ROTFLMAO! “Neither left {huh?} nor right” … It “isn’t against capitalism” {really?}… and many other “grievances from high taxes to wasted taxes like Obamacare” {what!}… You are talking about the ‘Occupy Wall Street’ movement. Wall Street? The figurative capital of Capitalism? LOL! Nice try though!
You say: “Tea Party was such a movement but of the right“! So, our Revolutionary Founding Fathers were right-wing then? Tax-Revolts are right-wing? Limited government is right-wing? I knew the revisionism was running deep, but just how deep was unclear until now. Someone else described the truth of the matter much better: Right Wing and Left Wing are the two extremes of Socialism, running from Fascism to Communism, from National Socialist to International Socialist. You will have to leave us pro-American Jeffersonian Constitutionalist types out of your little political drama. You can take both wings of your Socialist bird and [self-snip].
‘Occupying Wall Street’? The center of the Capitalist universe??? Ummm, go back to sleep.
‘Socialist‘ *is* a pejorative. Failure to understand this means it is *your* soul that has rotted away because you do not understand or care about two concepts that probably date back to cavemen: private property and stealing. Socialists are criminals based on their single-minded desire to take OPM (Other People’s Money). What we are seeing are a bunch of people protesting (how daring!) instead of thanking us the taxpayers, for throwing money away supporting their worthless meaningless lives. You’re welcome.
Stop blaming the wrong people. You forgot to blame the voters themselves who are a large part of the problem. They have continually voted for Socialists in all levels of government, their votes purchased by the promise of being showered with Other People’s Money.Over a TRILLION dollars (a THOUSAND BILLION) of deficit each year added to the debt because dummies decided in 2006 to pack the Congress with Socialists and in 2008 to place a little twerp of a Chicago politician with a rubber stamp in the White House. Congratulations to those that took part in this grand experiment. You must be so proud.
You completely avoided addressing the facts when you made up the term social liberalism, a non-sequitur to what you started with. What we do have is Democratic Socialism as the complement to Authoritarian Socialism. And what it is, is foxes and chickens voting on what’s for dinner.
There is another description for Democracy and our Democratic Socialism, it is ‘Mob Rule’ by a squeaking majority or even plurality vote. It could be as simple as a plurality of commenters clicking thumbs down on your comment, or the neighborhood association votes you off their island, or when your fellow voters decide to take your money and buy windmills or solar panels or degenerate artwork with it. The possibilities are endless really. “Peace” you say? It’s time y’all dropped this phrase. You do not mean it.
They saw that Egypt thingie, and the UK riots and got jealous The French Revolution and Red October still makes them envious.
Anyway, this diversion will not work. They cannot erase the consequences of a hundred years of Socialism by wishing it away and blaming the bankers. The Socialist or Progressive movements have bankrupted almost every country on Planet Earth, they are all battling impossible budget failures and currency collapses and much more is yet to come. You see, the Socialist gravy train is what is about to collapse, not America. The ‘Welfare State’ is reaching critical mass, spontaneous fission is occurring. They had their silly criminal experiment and the time is up. I always said that with Obamacare and then AGW as the final nail, when added to the two previous budget killers Social Security and Medicaid, this would break this camel’s back. They can try to divert attention away, but alas, it will not work.
And we should rethink what? Perhaps we should renegotiate with them and increase the current level of Socialism and size of government further in order to appease these dirty Socialist malcontents? Puhlease! “We demand immediate forgiveness of all debts”. Bwaaahaahaa. We’re laughing hysterically! 🙂 “Revolution”? They don’t scare us at all. Besides, this is one of the main reasons for the Second Amendment. What I always say personally to these miserable welfare-seeking Socialist malcontents is: Why don’t you just come and try to take my money yourself. 😉
So the Koch brother sponsored Tea Party think that some rich people are sponsoring the “occupy Wall Street” movement. Projection anyone?
Al would crash a 4 year olds birthday part for attention… So wouldn’t McKibben
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/10/13/127171/gore-climate-change-to-blame-for.html
The Republican Party has its’ “Tea Party”
and now the Democrat party, in partial recognition of their “unwashed masses”, has its’ “Flea Party”.
Ann Coutler sez: http://frontpagemag.com/2011/10/13/meet-the-flea-party/
As for Europe having the most successful societies on Earth. I don’t know about that.
People living at the poverty line would qualify as solidly middle class in most of Europe.
That doesn’t sound very successful to me.
If we taxed 100% of the income of people in this country who make $1 million and above, it would run the government for 4 months.
“So the
Koch brotherSOROS sponsoredTea PartyOWS think that some rich people [like the Nazi and convicted felon George Soros] are sponsoring the ‘occupy Wall Street’ movement. Projection anyone?”If it were not for psychological projection, the jealous OWS haters wouldn’t have much to say.
Wow!….Robespierre: MAXIMILIEN ROBESPIERRE:
TERROR AND THE FRENCH REVOLUTION – QUOTES
A controversial figure in the history of the French Revolution, Maximilien Robespierre was the head of the radical Jacobin Club. During the early years of the revolution, Robespierre became head of the Committee of Public Safety, a committee in the National Convention. It was Robespierre who declared that a revolutionary dictatorship was necessary in defense of the revolution, due to the threats posed by domestic opposition and foreign invasion. The “Reign of Terror” that followed sent thousands of nobles and other “enemies of the nation” to their deaths on the guillotine, including Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. In 1794, however, Robespierre was himself arrested and guillotined.
http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Communism/Robespierre%20Quotes.htm
MarkW,
Sorry, but that’s an absurd statement you make there. UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Austria, Norway, Sweden, Denmark… If you REALLY do believe that people living on the poverty line in the US equate to the middle class in Europe then you need to stop watching TV and tour Europe. Europe has its poor areas like Romania, to name just one, but there is considerable affluence here amongst the middle classes.
I wish Al came to Spain for a bit of his effect, it’s beeing the hottest October on record… Average maximum temps are beeing higher than the previous absolute maximum ever set.
It’s now been 4 months without rain in southern Spain…
This “protest” is still gaining and still gaining focus. There are still “crazies” whose actions make greate photo ops but do not reflect the majority of the protesters.
This protest is NOT new. We’ve been there before! As an historical reference check out the following:
Banks of Marble – Pete Seeger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-o3CJytIPE
The parrallel is awsome!
Man, being from Canada, I just don’t see this so called “income inequality”. I am shocked at how much today’s youth will get paid if only they would work. For casual labor, they will get paid 50% more than I did for semi skilled labor only 12 years ago. The only inequality I see is the other way.
Maybe it is different down South, I don’t know.
New document dump at Breitbart (if someone has already posted, I apologize for the repetition) with emails detailing the coordinated effort of various groups in starting and maintaining OWS.
http://biggovernment.com/thomasryan/2011/10/14/the-email-archive-of-the-occupywallstreet-movement-anarchists-socialists-jihadists-unions-democrats/
Grassroots it is NOT.
Kolokol [October 13, 2011 at 12:32 pm] says:
“It’s not so sure that they are protesting capitalism, per se.”
‘Occupying Wall Street’? The center of the Capitalist universe??? Ummm, go back to sleep.
So, what did you think of Zeese’s presentation? And BTW the Oct 11 Group was formed long before OWS, since May, and has done 10 marches in Washington. It was formed explicitly to find common purpose among the so called right and left. You seek to highlight divisions, I seek to find common ground. I guess with such a diverse movement we will both find what we want. Furthermore ,if you listen to them the capitalism most of them are referring to is corporate capitalism, finance capitalism, vulture capitalism and so on and that’s why you will find small “L” libertarians in solidarity with OWS and OCT 11. The Left blames the corporations while the Right blames the government but there isn’t any substantial difference, which makes rightism and leftism a loser’s game.
excerpt from one of the emails, quoted here:
http://biggovernment.com/abreitbart/2011/10/14/crowdsource-this-social-list-emails-expose-occupywallstreet-conspiracy-to-destablize-global-markets-governments/
“We’re in this for the long haul. There are no “solutions” that can be presented quickly to make us go away. And so there will be moments where our presence is no longer an uncomfortable and unknown variable, but rather is normalized and integrated. It’s in those moments that we have to push the envelop [sic], pry open the space of possibility even farther. We go as far as we can to destabalize [sic], but maintain momentum. And when that’s the new “normal” then we go farther. That’s how change happens, how we shift the terrain and the terms of the game.”
Sound familiar?
@Smokey says: October 13, 2011 at 9:04 pm
Thank you for proving my point that unions are irrelevant to a country having a prosperous middle class. Both Singapore and Germany have a prosperous middle class. Thus, it does not make a difference whether or not there is a unionized workforce. QED.
Smokey, Thank You for that statement, so stop blaming Unions for economic woes that they have little to no impact on. But I will continue to blame capitalist extremist corporations for taking down the economy like they did with the .com collapse in 2000 and the latest Banking collapse.
P.S. your QED is misplaced as the Singapore middle class is quite different than the German middle class, they are not equivalent.
Sun Spot,
Thank you for your opinion that the middle class in one country is different than the middle class in another country. That makes no sense, it’s like saying a millionaire in one country isn’t like a millionaire in another country. But you’re entitled to your opinion.
I support the right of private sector employees to unionize. But public sector unions should be tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail for being unaccountable parasites on the taxpaying public. Would you support a law making public sector unions illegal?
Hey, Smokey!
Not all unions are bad, even in the public sector. Some unions and public administrators hae let the union power get way out of hand. At the federal level, unions are prohibited from striking. Also there is a lot of playing favorites, even in government, and unions help provide a vehicle to protest unfairness.
I used to be a non-union contractor at Social Security and had a good chance to see both sides.
Yes, Barbara it sounds familiar and it may all pan out as a rigid left (whatever that means) movement just as the Tea Party was hijacked into establishment Republican supporting “useful idiots”. You should hear some of their organizer’s warnings to the OWS and Oct 11. It could happen and judging by what I’ve seen of many popular movements it will happen, which is precisely why I seek common areas rather than divisive ones. Won’t that be fun to see two groups, both with legitimate complaints and large areas of common agreement fight each other constrained by the cattle chute of antiquated ideological blinders. Meanwhile, this from a Oct 11 organizer: “We have no desire to unify those that consider themselves democrat or republican, politically speaking…we want to fire them all, and start from scratch…”we are the 99%” tells you that we automatically are bridged with all common citizens, against the greedy and corporate elite that control the money, the military, and the media.”
Tea Party founder backs Occupy Wall Street
http://rt.com/usa/news/tea-occupy-denninger-wall-819/
Hey Windjammer2!
I agree that unions are valuable for fighting arbitrary discipline, which should only be issued according to arbitrator Daugherty’s landmark 7 questions for just cause discipline.
But the point I have been trying to make is that public employee unions, whether they can strike or not, should be illegal [as President FDR said].
Who represents the taxpaying public? In my town police officers average over $202,000 in annual pay and benefits. They can retire at 50 with 97% of their last 3 years’ average pay – which routinely includes plenty of overtime. And all of their benefits continue for life. If non-union police officer jobs were offered at say, $65,000 a year, there would be a line of applicants from San Francisco to Miami.
Who represents the taxpaying public? Certainly not public employe unions, which are nothing but parasites on taxpayers.
Thanks, Smokey!
I totally agree that some of the benefits and especially the retirment “arrangements” are totally out of line. I live in the Chicago area and some of these agreements are just coming to light – Totally “Chicago Style” bordering on corruption.
Keep the dialogue going!
I see little common ground here. Both the TEA party and the OWS groups are upset about some of the same things, such as the bailouts and the actions of the Federal Reserve.
The Taxed-Enough-Already party thinks taxes are too high for everyone and the government is too big and doing things it shouldn’t be doing. The OWS movement seems to stand for more government, more entitlements and taxing some people more. I don’t know where you’ll find common ground between the two.