
UPDATE: see some reactions to this announcement here
From the GWPF
This refers to the CLOUD experiment at CERN.
I’ll have more on this as it develops (updated twice since the original report now), but for the short term, it appears that a non-visible light irradiance effect on Earth’s cloud seeds has been confirmed. The way it is posited to work is that the effect of cosmic rays (modulated by the sun’s magnetic variations which either allow more or deflect more cosmic rays) creates cloud condensation nuclei in the Earth’s atmosphere. With more condensation nuclei, more clouds form and vice-versa. Clouds have significant effects on TSI at the surface.
Even the IPCC has admitted this in their latest (2007) report:
“Cloud feedbacks are the primary source of inter-model differences in equilibrium climate sensitivity, with low cloud being the largest contributor”.
Update: From the Nature article, Kirkby is a bit more muted in his assessment than the GWPF:
Early results seem to indicate that cosmic rays do cause a change. The high-energy protons seemed to enhance the production of nanometre-sized particles from the gaseous atmosphere by more than a factor of ten. But, Kirkby adds, those particles are far too small to serve as seeds for clouds. “At the moment, it actually says nothing about a possible cosmic-ray effect on clouds and climate, but it’s a very important first step,” he says.
Update: Bizarrely, New Scientist headlines with: Cloud-making: Another human effect on the climate
================================================================
CERN Experiment Confirms Cosmic Rays Influence Climate Change.
by Nigel Calder
Long-anticipated results of the CLOUD experiment at CERN in Geneva appear in tomorrow’s issue of the journal Nature (25 August). The Director General of CERN stirred controversy last month, by saying that the CLOUD team’s report should be politically correct about climate change (see my 17 July post below). The implication was that they should on no account endorse the Danish heresy – Henrik Svensmark’s hypothesis that most of the global warming of the 20th Century can be explained by the reduction in cosmic rays due to livelier solar activity, resulting in less low cloud cover and warmer surface temperatures.
Willy-nilly the results speak for themselves, and it’s no wonder the Director General was fretful.
Jasper Kirkby of CERN and his 62 co-authors, from 17 institutes in Europe and the USA, announce big effects of pions from an accelerator, which simulate the cosmic rays and ionize the air in the experimental chamber. The pions strongly promote the formation of clusters of sulphuric acid and water molecules – aerosols of the kind that may grow into cloud condensation nuclei on which cloud droplets form. What’s more, there’s a very important clarification of the chemistry involved.
A breach of etiquette
My interest in CLOUD goes back nearly 14 years, to a lecture I gave at CERN about Svensmark’s discovery of the link between cosmic rays and cloudiness. It piqued Kirkby’s curiosity, and both Svensmark and I were among those who helped him to prepare his proposal for CLOUD.
By an unpleasant irony, the only Svensmark contribution acknowledged in theNature report is the 1997 paper (Svensmark and Friis-Christensen) on which I based my CERN lecture. There’s no mention of the successful experiments in ion chemistry and molecular cluster formation by the Danish team in Copenhagen, Boulby and latterly in Aarhus where they beat CLOUD to the first results obtained using a particle beam (instead of gamma rays and natural cosmic rays) to ionize the air in the experimental chamber – see http://calderup.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/accelerator-results-on-cloud-nucleation-2/
What will historians of science make of this breach of scientific etiquette? That Kirkby was cross because Svensmark, losing patience with the long delay in getting approval and funding for CLOUD, took matters into his own hands? Or because Svensmark’s candour about cosmic rays casting doubt on catastrophic man-made global warming frightened the national funding agencies? Or was Kirkby simply doing his best (despite the results) to obey his Director General by slighting all things Danish?
Personal rivalries aside, the important question is what the new CLOUD paper means for the Svensmark hypothesis. Pick your way through the cautious prose and you’ll find this:
“Ion-induced nucleation [cosmic ray action] will manifest itself as a steady production of new particles [molecular clusters] that is difficult to isolate in atmospheric observations because of other sources of variability but is nevertheless taking place and could be quite large when averaged globally over the troposphere [the lower atmosphere].”
It’s so transparently favourable to what the Danes have said all along that I’m surprised the warmists’ house magazine Nature is able to publish it, even omitting the telltale graph shown at the start of this post. Added to the already favourable Danish experimental findings, the more detailed CERN result is excellent. Thanks a million, Jasper.
Enlightening chemistry
And in friendlier times we’d be sharing champagne for a fine discovery with CLOUD, that traces of ammonia can increase the production of the sulphuric clusters a thousandfold. It’s highlighted in the report’s title: “Role of sulphuric acid, ammonia and galactic cosmic rays in atmospheric aerosol nucleation” and it was made possible by the more elaborate chemical analysis in the big-team set-up in Geneva. In essence, the ammonia helps to stabilize the molecular clusters.
Although not saying it openly, the CLOUD team implies a put-down for the Danes with this result, repeatedly declaring that without ammonia there’d be little cluster production at low altitudes. But although the Aarhus experimenters did indeed assume the simpler reaction (H2SO4 + H2O), differing results in successive experimental runs made them suspect that varying amounts of trace impurities were present in the air cylinders used to fill their chamber. Now it looks as if a key impurity may have been ammonia. But some members of the CLOUD consortium also favoured (H2SO4 + H2O) and early runs in Geneva used no intentional ammonia. So they’ve little reason to scoff.
In any case, whether the basic chemistry is (H2SO4 + H2O) or (H2SO4 + H2O + NH3) is an academic rather than a practical point. There are always traces of ammonia in the real air, and according to the CLOUD report you need only one molecule in 30 billion. If that helps to oil Svensmark’s climatic motor, it’s good to know, but it calls for no apologies and alters the climatic implications not a jot.
The experiment’s logo. The acronym “Cosmics Leaving Outdoor Droplets” always implied strong interest in Svensmark’s hypothesis. And the roles of the Galaxy and the Sun are acknowledged.Technically, CLOUD is a welcome advance on the Danish experiments. Not only is the chemistry wider ranging but molecular clusters as small as 1.7 nanometres in diameter are detectable, compared with 4 nm in Denmark. And the set-up enables the scientists to study the ion chemistry at lower temperatures, corresponding to increasing altitudes in the atmosphere. Cluster production soars as the temperature goes down, until “almost every negative ion gives rise to a new particle” [i.e. molecular cluster]. The lowest temperature reported in the paper is -25 oC. That corresponds to an altitude of 6000 metres, so unless you wish to visualize a rain of cloud-seeding aerosols from on high, it’s not very relevant to Svensmark’s interest in the lowest 3000 metres.
How the warmists built their dam
Shifting from my insider’s perspective on the CLOUD experiment, to see it on the broader canvas of the politicized climate science of the early 21st Century, the chief reaction becomes a weary sigh of relief. Although they never said so, the High Priests of the Inconvenient Truth – in such temples as NASA-GISS, Penn State and the University of East Anglia – always knew that Svensmark’s cosmic ray hypothesis was the principal threat to their sketchy and poorly modelled notions of self-amplifying action of greenhouse gases.
In telling how the obviously large influences of the Sun in previous centuries and millennia could be explained, and in applying the same mechanism to the 20th warming, Svensmark put the alarmist predictions at risk – and with them the billions of dollars flowing from anxious governments into the global warming enterprise.
For the dam that was meant to ward off a growing stream of discoveries coming from the spring in Copenhagen, the foundation was laid on the day after the Danes first announced the link between cosmic rays and clouds at a space conference in Birmingham, England, in 1996. “Scientifically extremely naïve and irresponsible,”Bert Bolin declared, as Chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
As several journalists misbehaved by reporting the story from Birmingham, the top priority was to tame the media. The first courses of masonry ensured that anything that Svensmark and his colleagues might say would be ignored or, failing that, be promptly rubbished by a warmist scientist. Posh papers like The Times of London and the New York Times, and posh TV channels like the BBC’s, readily fell into line. Enthusiastically warmist magazines like New Scientist and Scientific Americanneeded no coaching.
Similarly the journals Nature and Science, which in my youth prided themselves on reports that challenged prevailing paradigms, gladly provided cement for higher masonry, to hold the wicked hypothesis in check at the scientific level. Starve Svensmark of funding. Reject his scientific papers but give free rein to anyone who criticizes him. Trivialize the findings in the Holy Writ of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. None of this is paranoia on my part, but a matter of close personal observation since 1996.
“It’s the Sun, stupid!” The story isn’t really about a bunch of naughty Danish physicists. They are just spokesmen for the most luminous agent of climate change. As the Sun was what the warmists really wanted to tame with their dam, they couldn’t do it. And coming to the Danes’ aid, by briefly blasting away many cosmic rays with great puffs of gas, the Sun enabled the team to trace in detail the consequent reduction in cloud seeding and liquid water in clouds. See my posthttp://calderup.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/do-clouds-disappear/ By the way, that research also disposes of a morsel of doubt in the new CLOUD paper, about whether the small specks made by cosmic rays really grow sufficiently to seed cloud droplets.
As knowledge accumulated behind their dam and threatened to overtop it, the warmists had one last course to lay. Paradoxically it was CLOUD. Long delays with this experiment to explore the microchemical mechanism of the Svensmark effect became the chief excuse for deferring any re-evaluation of the Sun’s role in climate change. When the microchemical mechanism was revealed prematurely by the SKY experiment in Copenhagen and published in 2006, the warmists said, “No particle accelerator? That won’t do! Wait for CLOUD.” When the experiment in Aarhus confirmed the mechanism using a particle accelerator they said, “Oh that’s just the Danes again! Wait for CLOUD.”
Well they’ve waited and their dam has failed them.
Hall of Shame
Retracing those 14 years, what if physics had functioned as it is supposed to do? What if CLOUD, quickly approved and funded, had verified the Svensmark effect with all the authority of CERN, in the early 2000s. What if the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change had done a responsible job, acknowledging the role of the Sun and curtailing the prophecies of catastrophic warming?
For a start there would have no surprise about the “travesty” that global warming has stopped since the mid-1990s, with the Sun becoming sulky. Vast sums might have been saved on misdirected research and technology, and on climate change fests and wheezes of every kind. The world’s poor and their fragile living environment could have had far more useful help than precautions against warming.
And there would have been less time for so many eminent folk from science, politics, industry, finance, the media and the arts to be taken in by man-made climate catastrophe. (In London, for example, from the Royal Society to the National Theatre.) Sadly for them, in the past ten years they’ve crowded with their warmist badges into a Hall of Shame, like bankers before the crash.
As I reported on May 14th, 2011 in Update on the CERN CLOUD experiment:
From Physics World Head in a CLOUD:
In this special video report for physicsworld.com CLOUD project leader Jasper Kirkby explains what his team is trying to achieve with its experiment. “We’re trying to understand what the connection is between a cosmic ray going through the atmosphere and the creation of so-called aerosol seeds – the seed for a cloud droplet or an ice particle,” Kirkby explains.
The CLOUD experiment recreates these cloud-forming processes by directing the beamline at CERN’s proton synchrotron into a stainless-steel chamber containing very pure air and selected trace gases.
One of the aims of the experiment is to discover details of cloud formation that could feed back into climate models. “Everybody agrees that clouds have a huge effect on the climate. But the understanding of how big that effect is is really very poorly known,” says Kirkby.
Here’s the video, click image below to launch it.
=====================================================
More coverage: Big hat tip to WUWT reader “Andrew20”
Cosmic rays get ahead in CLOUD
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2011/August/24081102.asp
Cloud formation may be linked to cosmic rays
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110824/full/news.2011.504.html
Cloud formation study casts a shadow over certain climate models
======================================================
Update: From Nigel Calder’s blog
A graph they’d prefer you not to notice. Tucked away near the end of online supplementary material, and omitted from the printed CLOUD paper in Nature, it clearly shows how cosmic rays promote the formation of clusters of molecules (“particles”) that in the real atmosphere can grow and seed clouds. In an early-morning experimental run at CERN, starting at 03.45, ultraviolet light began making sulphuric acid molecules in the chamber, while a strong electric field cleansed the air of ions. It also tended to remove molecular clusters made in the neutral environment (n) but some of these accumulated at a low rate. As soon as the electric field was switched off at 04.33, natural cosmic rays (gcr) raining down through the roof of the experimental hall in Geneva helped to build clusters at a higher rate. How do we know they were contributing? Because when, at 04.58, CLOUD simulated stronger cosmic rays with a beam of charged pion particles (ch) from the accelerator, the rate of cluster production became faster still. The various colours are for clusters of different diameters (in nanometres) as recorded by various instruments. The largest (black) took longer to grow than the smallest (blue). This is Fig. S2c from supplementary online material for J. Kirkby et al., Nature, 476, 429-433, © Nature 2011
re: Leif Svalgaard says: August 27, 2011 at 2:18 pm
Wait a second – Svensmark claims there isn’t a delay in WHAT precisely? The formation or degree of cloud cover? The start of a change in temperature trend? Or what you’re implying, that regardless of the beginning state and average temperature of the entire Earth, the avg temp would make a massive step change to exactly equal whatever it was the last time the relevant cosmic ray input was equivalent at that moment even when the beginning state of the system that previous time was significantly different? The first two I wouldn’t have much trouble believing – the last, well, I’m highly skeptical and would sure like to see that quote/interpretation from him somewhere online.
Andrew30 says:
August 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm
Who did that Physical Experiment on the Earth?
Heat conduction is a solved engineering problem. The laws were formulated by Fourier 200 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduction_(heat)
Rational Debate says:
August 27, 2011 at 4:59 pm
and scientists are human too, with all the frailties, foibles, character flaws, ethics & value issues that all humans have.
and with all the genius, creativity, beauty, intelligence & curiosity that humans have. Science works on time scales longer than human lifetimes.
Rational Debate says:
August 27, 2011 at 5:19 pm
Wait a second – Svensmark claims there isn’t a delay in WHAT precisely? The formation or degree of cloud cover?
It is sometimes difficult to figure out precisely WHAT he claims, but he shows no delay between cosmic rays and cloud cover [and hence albedo]. As I have linked to repeatedly a large step change in forcing will result in a temperature change with half of the change taking place within 15 years of the step, Thus short.
Rational Debate says:
August 27, 2011 at 5:19 pm
would sure like to see that quote/interpretation from him somewhere online.
I find so often that people are quite rabid about this without ever having bothered to actually read the relevant literature. Here is one quote:
‘Influence of Cosmic Rays on Earth’s Climate’, Svensmark, Henrik
Physical Review Letters, Volume 81, Issue 22, November 30, 1998, pp.5027-5030
“During the last solar cycle Earth’s cloud cover underwent a modulation more closely in phase with the galactic cosmic ray flux than with other solar activity parameters. Further it is found that Earth’s temperature follows more closely decade variations in galactic cosmic ray flux and solar cycle length, than other solar activity parameters”
No lag that I can see, except perhaps he means that the lag is exactly an integral number of sunspot cycles, in which case it would not be visible, like waiting for a train that is one hour delayed and runs once an hour.
Rational Debate says:
August 27, 2011 at 5:19 pm
would sure like to see that quote/interpretation from him somewhere online.
‘Influence of Solar Activity On Tropospheric Temperatures’; Svensmark, H.
EGS XXVII General Assembly, Nice, 21-26 April 2002, abstract #6072
“Tropospheric temperatures (~ 1-9 km) measured by radiosondes in period 1957-2001 have been studied. On timescales shorter than about 3 years the variations in temperature is mainly caused by internal variation in the Earth’s system (e.g. ENSO events, volcanoes). However at time scales longer than 3-4 years the temperatures show a remarkable aggrement with solar activity. This finding suggest that the sun is dominating the variations in the tropospheric temperature on timescales longer than 3-4 years. Comparing the temperature variations with reconstructed solar irradiance show that a solar amplification factor of 3-4 is nessesary.”
No delay here either, just filtering out short-term fluctuations.
Andrew30 says:
August 27, 2011 at 2:02 pm
Leif;
[In fact, at the moment, the magnetic output of the sun is at the level of a century ago, while temperatures are not, so no correlation.]
Seriously?
Your kidding, right?
I put a pot of water over a gas flame just now, the flame is as hot at the moment as the flame was yesterday when the other pot of water on it was boiling, this pot is not boiling, therefore there is no correlation between the flame and the temperature of the water.
Oh dear – we’re back to pots of water on a stove. This seem to crop up every time the sun-climate correlation is challenged. Apparently there is a strong correlation between solar activity and climate except when there isn’t. The late 20th/early 21st century appears to be one of those periods when there isn’t a correlation so we have to invent ‘lags’ . It‘s not clear if these ‘lags’ were evident during the Dalton Minimum. It’s all very confusing.
Never mind putting a pot of water on a stove, Andrew, try swimming in the sea around the UK coast in, say, August. Then try taking a dip in March. See if you notice any difference. Discuss the “thermal lag”. Better still – check out the temperatures in the upper 300 metres of the Eastern Pacific. Temperatures have varied more than 2 degrees over the past 2 years.
Wow, just wow.
I thought that you understood a bit of physics.
The Thermal Mass of the Oceans slows rate of temperature change on Earth, thus there is a delay before we notice the effect.
So let’s see the supposed correlation – including lag time – then we should be able to estimate the rate of future cooling.
To be totally serious: while it may take a few decades for the ‘equilibrium’ temperature change to be fully realised, a significant decline in temperatures will be evident within a few years. We’ve now had low solar activity for ~5 years.
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 27, 2011 at 5:37 pm
Rational Debate says:
August 27, 2011 at 5:19 pm
Wait a second – Svensmark claims there isn’t a delay in WHAT precisely? The formation or degree of cloud cover?
It is sometimes difficult to figure out precisely WHAT he claims, but he shows no delay between cosmic rays and cloud cover [and hence albedo]. As I have linked to repeatedly a large step change in forcing will result in a temperature change with half of the change taking place within 15 years of the step, Thus short.
Shouldn’t the cloud cover effect be fairly immediate? I’m just basing this on Nigel Calder’s timings in the graph they “didn’t want us to see”. I accept it will be a while before total temperature change is realised but the cloud cover effect should be obvious now and some drop in temperature should be apparent.
As I wrote on another thread …..
See the various “Cloud Experiment” lectures and videos, by Svensmark, Kirkby,
Calder and others at the Fraudulent Climate of Hokum Science website.
Click the name “Axel” above to go there now.
On Video Wall #3
Cosmic Rays and Climate – by Jasper Kirkby (English – CERN Colloquium 2009)
On Video Wall #5
“climate change is due to cosmic rays.” (Jo Haig challenges Nigel Calder – BBC Newsnight)
Kampen om Klimaet – Svensmark (Danske & English with Norsk Commentary & Subtitles)
The Cloud Mystery – Henrik Svensmark (English with Danske Subtitles 2007)
On Video Wall #11
Jasper Kirkby: The CLOUD experiment at CERN – 2011 (English – updated)
The UK MET Office is advertising for a whole trench of new “scientists” & “programmers”
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/about-us/jobs/current-vacancies
Are these events related ? I think we should be told !
John Finn says:
August 27, 2011 at 3:45 am
phlogiston says:
August 26, 2011 at 9:47 pm
Fossil fuel burning produces ~7 to 8 GtC per annum. The increase in the atmosphere is ~3 to 4 GtC per annum. CO2 concentrations in the oceans is increasing nor decreasing, i.e. they are not releasing more CO2, so where do you think the atmospheric increase might be coming from?
Intuitively it seems likely that anthropogenic emissions on this scale are a significant part of the CO2 increase over the last century – however some experimental evidence is ambiguous on this e.g. the C12/C13 ratio.
e.g. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/05/the-emily-litella-moment-for-climate-science-and-co2/
John Finn says:
“To be totally serious: while it may take a few decades for the ‘equilibrium’ temperature change to be fully realised, a significant decline in temperatures will be evident within a few years. We’ve now had low solar activity for ~5 years.”
_____
Yes, this supposition does seem to be the big hope of AGW skeptics. Another Dalton or Maunder Minimum to the rescue…cool the earth off, and all this talk of warming will long be forgotten.
Finn wrote:
“Fossil fuel burning produces ~7 to 8 GtC per annum. The increase in the atmosphere is ~3 to 4 GtC per annum. CO2 concentrations in the oceans is increasing nor decreasing, i.e. they are not releasing more CO2, so where do you think the atmospheric increase might be coming from?”
This has not been empirically measured. These figures are derived from
mathematical calculations and rely on unproven assumptions, presumably.
No citations are given for how these figures are arrived at.
The C12/C13 ratio experiment is indeed a death knell
for the Man-Made CO2 “problem” theory, surely.
Global Emission of Carbon Dioxide: The Contribution from Natural Sources
Dr. Murry Salby talks about his research and forthcoming publication due soon,
in a radio recording. This may be heard at the website linked to the name “Axel”
above. This item is about 6th or 7th down on the main index page. More material
will be available after the publication embargo has expired.
R. Gates said:
August 27, 2011 at 6:51 pm
“Yes, this supposition does seem to be the big hope of AGW skeptics.
Another Dalton or Maunder Minimum to the rescue…cool the earth off.”
On the other hand, an Asteroid could travel from Uranus, and
you would certainly feel that, here on Earth, if it happened…..
You would not find it pleasant, I am sure.
Leif Svalgaard says
” That is not the fault of the modelers. That is the fault of people you have voted for. I agree that the policy is stupid, but people deserve what they vote for. That you don’t want to spend billions is understandable, but elected politicians squander billions on things like war and ill-advised subsidizes, so what’s the difference? You take your displeasure as input to your assessment of science, and THAT is wrong.”
That’s a nice copout. The AGW scientists clique actively aided and abetted in this policymaking by becoming vocal activists. Leave your models and see the real world. Hansen, Gavin, Mann, Trenberth, Schneider et. al. were doing and with the exception of the deceased Schneider are doing just that. The AGW promoting climate scientists are actively a part of the scam and have been deeply involved in it. And the rest of the climate science clique remained mute against this travesty. And you have the nerve to say that climate scientists are pure and politicians are the ones creating problems. You may be a good scientist but if this is what you really mean you are a lousy realist, in denial of what’s really happening today in the world due to bad behaviour of the AGW climate scientists clique. Wake up and smell the coffee. We all may not be great qualified and published scientists. But we know much more about reality and how this scam is affecting the world, compared to whatever naiveity you have shown in this aspect.
Then you go on to say
” Svensmark and [especially] Kirkby have shown nothing of the kind. To say that the modelers ‘have not understood’ something is very wrong. You are suggesting they are morons. If anything, Svensmark has not been able to quantify the process [and Kirkby shows that it is not sufficient as the observed effect is much too small] in terms of physical variables that can be modeled. If such quantification had been made, it could have been incorporated into models, but would then run up against the fact that the cosmic ray activity has not shown any significant trend the past 60 years.”
Svensmark’s theory actually withstood 3 empirical tests so far, something one of the models have withstood. On that account alone AGW climate science promoting modellers are not fit to wipe Svensmark’s boots. None of their models passed any empirical evidence tests.
And Kirkby’s work actually tested a theory, falsified his hypothesis and found something different and advanced science. Do you realise? There’s actual testing, verification, falsification, new discovery and advance, something AGW modellers have shown incapable of and something you’ve resolutey failed to address or show yourselves everytime when questioned in this thread. You’ve completely avoided any answers to evidence based studies with actual measurements validating model output.
So as long as you continue defending bad science, bad models and bad ethics and continue being an apologist for that, your work or words will hold no value to any rational person. And when the scam hits and rocks and disintegrates as it will for sure, you’ll be one of the victims, for not speaking out against bad science and scientific practices and being a defender of such practices.
And here’s a concise article by Lawrence Solomon describing what all happened once Svensmark came out with this theory in 1996
http://www.financialpost.com/opinion/columnists/Science+settled/5315908/story.html
What was the first reaction from the IPCC Head Bert Bolin? He said
“I find the move from this pair scientifically extremely naive and irresponsible.”
Yes that’s the way scientific enquiry was treated by the AGW promoting crowd.
Any idea contrary to their religion was immediately condemned as heresy. And that’s what wwe see today from the acolytes of this church in this thread. A mindless defence of the indefensible and poor science.
Venter says:
August 27, 2011 at 7:57 pm
And here’s a concise article by Lawrence Solomon describing what all happened once Svensmark came out with this theory in 1996
It is worse than we thought: “the science is now settled”
You defenders of the AGW conjecture are very tiresome.
You have no evidence for that concept outside a closed laboratory container, yet you make no effort to repair your ignorance, but just keep on prattling on, like a good defence lawyer. Not very scientific, I’m afraid.
You are also very tiresome because you keep trying to hide the fact that this is but the first paper in the ongoing series of CLOUD experiments and merely covers the results of a preliminary examination of cloud formation.
While known for a long time, they have now quantified the requirements for the very beginnigs of cloud formation. H2O, SO2 and NH4, plus cosmic rays are sufficient for that purpose.
The next step is to determine what extra ingredients are require to make the clouds grow.
I presume that even you do not deny that clouds do form in the atmosphere?
There is much more to be discovered.
Watch and learn.
Don’t prattle – it’s very tiresome but will not stop the development of scientific knowledge.
” R. Gates says: August 27, 2011 at 6:51
Yes, this supposition does seem to be the big hope of AGW skeptics. Another Dalton or Maunder Minimum to the rescue…cool the earth off, and all this talk of warming will long be forgotten. ”
No we are not looking to be “rescued” by a freaking ice age, mini or otherwise. We are trying to follow the science wherever it leads us.
AusieDan says:
August 27, 2011 at 8:22 pm
While known for a long time, they have now quantified the requirements for the very beginnigs of cloud formation. H2O, SO2 and NH4, plus cosmic rays are sufficient for that purpose.
They state specifically that the ions are not sufficient for that purpose. The major argument in disfavor of the cosmic ray hypothesis is that the cosmic ray intensity has been constant [apart from the solar cycle undulations] the past 60 years, while temperatures have not.
AusieDan says:
August 27, 2011 at 8:22 pm
I presume that even you do not deny that clouds do form in the atmosphere?
If cosmic rays are needed to form clouds, imagine a planet around a star with a magnetic field much stronger than the sun’s [such stars exist] such as to completely screen out all cosmic rays in the star system. Would you say that that planet could not have clouds?
As far as AGW is concerned it is clear that there has been rises in temperature in the past as large and as steep as the past 40 years, so AGW cannot explain those, so no tiresome arguments needed.
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 27, 2011 at 8:55 pm
They state specifically that the ions are not sufficient for that purpose. The major argument in disfavor of the cosmic ray hypothesis is that the cosmic ray intensity has been constant [apart from the solar cycle undulations] the past 60 years, while temperatures have not.
They are very meticulous to be scientifically honest. Nevertheless they have shown that a recipe for nucleation, necessary for cloud formation, is not a random hypothesis but can be produced in laboratory conditions. Not sufficient, but a first step in building a proof for a hypothesis of cosmic rays influencing cloud formation.
Now what do you mean by “apart from the solar cycle undulations” . I thought that that is part of the hypothesis to be eventually proven: solar cycle undulations of cosmic rays correlate with cloud formation and albedo.
My opinion is that as climate is chaotic, a lot of factors enter influencing cloud formation and albedo, which is rising; even possibly including the anthropogenic excess of CO2 which will make more plankton 🙂 and vegetation in general. And we know that chaotic outputs, though they have oscillations, their frequency may with difficulty be associated with specific cycles in the input contributions.
The paper is one solid brick in building a proof for the contribution of cosmic rays to the soup.
On a side line, it is interesting that no albedo paper comes out in a google search that uses more recent data than up to 2008. Considering the importance of the measurements, it smells fishy. No grants? inconvenient truths? to whom?
richard telford says:
August 25, 2011 at 3:21 am
phlogiston says:
August 24, 2011 at 10:24 pm
Opponents of Svensmark like to use the neutron flux as an index of cosmic rays, to point to trends not correlating with climate. Very convenient, since neutrons, being neutral, are unaffected by charged particle solar wind or by magnetic fields, key players in the Svensmark hypothesis. Neutron flux is irrelevant to this discussion.
—————–
You are confused. The neutrons are the result of the collision of primary cosmic rays (mainly protons) with atoms in the atmosphere.
If the neutron flux was unaffected by magnetic fields, why does it show a cycles at solar frequencies?
Yes I forgot that neutrons themselves are secondary cosmic particles. Thus my 2 posts here are total BS – please ignore them!
Henry@AnnaV
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/24/breaking-news-cern-experiment-confirms-cosmic-rays-influence-climate-change/#comment-729764
You don’t know?
John Finn:
At August 27, 2011 at 6:04 pm you say;
“To be totally serious: while it may take a few decades for the ‘equilibrium’ temperature change to be fully realised, a significant decline in [ocean] temperatures will be evident within a few years. We’ve now had low solar activity for ~5 years.”
And continuing being “totally serious” there has been a significant decline in ocean temperatures recently; see
http://oceanmotion.org/html/gatheringdata/satellites-jason.htm
and the sea level shows recent sharp fall, too; see
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/24/nasa-notes-sea-level-is-falling-in-press-release-but-calls-it-a-pothole-on-road-to-higher-seas/
Your point is?
Richard
Henry@Leif,Richard,Izen,&others.
Note that I have clearly established that maximum temperatures compared to means and minima have risien in a ratio of 9:3:1 in the past 4 decades.
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/henrys-pool-table-on-global-warming
This excludes the idea that the warming is caused by an increase in CO2 by a GH effect because in that case the observed trend (in the ratio) should be exactly opposite.
The sample is small – 15 weather stations from all over the world
but I am pretty sure that this sample is reasonably representative, and clearly those of you with some spare time can do the same thing to check that I am correct.
If it is agreed by you that it was maxima (that happened during the day) that pushed up most of the average temps and clearly possibly also a part of the increase in minima, then you are left with only conclusion: most of the warming is natural and you have 3 choices for the explanation
1) either the sun shone a bit brighter
2) or there were less clouds.
3) combination of 1) and 2) above.
(All other choices basiccally fall aside)
Are you with me on that?
Now what the various places on earth do with the extra heat is still a bit of a puzzle to me. At some places it is lost completely and you observe cooling. At other places it is trapped. The main thing to observe is that the “global” warming is not global at all. It is predominantly in the NH where there is more landmass. Seeing that the CO2 is distributed evenly in the atmosphere, it does not make sense to continue to argue that it must be caused by a greater GH effect of the increased CO2 because then the warming observed should be more global. So, I am sorry, the AGW hypothesis that the warming is caused by an increase in CO2 due to an increased Gh effect is proven wrong. Anyone can repeat my experiments, in fact it would be a good excercise for some pupils in stats classes to see if they get the same results as I do.
The only thing that I can think of to explain what I am seeing happening is that it must be due to increased vegetation in the NH that more heat is trapped there. In turn, I suppose this is partly AGW due to people wanting more trees, forests, gardens etc. but is also partly AGW because the increased CO2 acts as a fertilizer and accelerator for growth.
HenryP :
August 27, 2011 at 6:31 am
August 27, 2011 at 11:35 pm
As for more plankton in the NH I do not know. I can guess it is from run off from fertilizers, though. The Adriatic at times gets clogged with plankton at the river mouths because of that and it spreads into the mediteranean..
The second guess is that there are more deserts in the northern hemisphere and dust from deserts is great fetilizer for plankton