
UPDATE: see some reactions to this announcement here
From the GWPF
This refers to the CLOUD experiment at CERN.
I’ll have more on this as it develops (updated twice since the original report now), but for the short term, it appears that a non-visible light irradiance effect on Earth’s cloud seeds has been confirmed. The way it is posited to work is that the effect of cosmic rays (modulated by the sun’s magnetic variations which either allow more or deflect more cosmic rays) creates cloud condensation nuclei in the Earth’s atmosphere. With more condensation nuclei, more clouds form and vice-versa. Clouds have significant effects on TSI at the surface.
Even the IPCC has admitted this in their latest (2007) report:
“Cloud feedbacks are the primary source of inter-model differences in equilibrium climate sensitivity, with low cloud being the largest contributor”.
Update: From the Nature article, Kirkby is a bit more muted in his assessment than the GWPF:
Early results seem to indicate that cosmic rays do cause a change. The high-energy protons seemed to enhance the production of nanometre-sized particles from the gaseous atmosphere by more than a factor of ten. But, Kirkby adds, those particles are far too small to serve as seeds for clouds. “At the moment, it actually says nothing about a possible cosmic-ray effect on clouds and climate, but it’s a very important first step,” he says.
Update: Bizarrely, New Scientist headlines with: Cloud-making: Another human effect on the climate
================================================================
CERN Experiment Confirms Cosmic Rays Influence Climate Change.
by Nigel Calder
Long-anticipated results of the CLOUD experiment at CERN in Geneva appear in tomorrow’s issue of the journal Nature (25 August). The Director General of CERN stirred controversy last month, by saying that the CLOUD team’s report should be politically correct about climate change (see my 17 July post below). The implication was that they should on no account endorse the Danish heresy – Henrik Svensmark’s hypothesis that most of the global warming of the 20th Century can be explained by the reduction in cosmic rays due to livelier solar activity, resulting in less low cloud cover and warmer surface temperatures.
Willy-nilly the results speak for themselves, and it’s no wonder the Director General was fretful.
Jasper Kirkby of CERN and his 62 co-authors, from 17 institutes in Europe and the USA, announce big effects of pions from an accelerator, which simulate the cosmic rays and ionize the air in the experimental chamber. The pions strongly promote the formation of clusters of sulphuric acid and water molecules – aerosols of the kind that may grow into cloud condensation nuclei on which cloud droplets form. What’s more, there’s a very important clarification of the chemistry involved.
A breach of etiquette
My interest in CLOUD goes back nearly 14 years, to a lecture I gave at CERN about Svensmark’s discovery of the link between cosmic rays and cloudiness. It piqued Kirkby’s curiosity, and both Svensmark and I were among those who helped him to prepare his proposal for CLOUD.
By an unpleasant irony, the only Svensmark contribution acknowledged in theNature report is the 1997 paper (Svensmark and Friis-Christensen) on which I based my CERN lecture. There’s no mention of the successful experiments in ion chemistry and molecular cluster formation by the Danish team in Copenhagen, Boulby and latterly in Aarhus where they beat CLOUD to the first results obtained using a particle beam (instead of gamma rays and natural cosmic rays) to ionize the air in the experimental chamber – see http://calderup.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/accelerator-results-on-cloud-nucleation-2/
What will historians of science make of this breach of scientific etiquette? That Kirkby was cross because Svensmark, losing patience with the long delay in getting approval and funding for CLOUD, took matters into his own hands? Or because Svensmark’s candour about cosmic rays casting doubt on catastrophic man-made global warming frightened the national funding agencies? Or was Kirkby simply doing his best (despite the results) to obey his Director General by slighting all things Danish?
Personal rivalries aside, the important question is what the new CLOUD paper means for the Svensmark hypothesis. Pick your way through the cautious prose and you’ll find this:
“Ion-induced nucleation [cosmic ray action] will manifest itself as a steady production of new particles [molecular clusters] that is difficult to isolate in atmospheric observations because of other sources of variability but is nevertheless taking place and could be quite large when averaged globally over the troposphere [the lower atmosphere].”
It’s so transparently favourable to what the Danes have said all along that I’m surprised the warmists’ house magazine Nature is able to publish it, even omitting the telltale graph shown at the start of this post. Added to the already favourable Danish experimental findings, the more detailed CERN result is excellent. Thanks a million, Jasper.
Enlightening chemistry
And in friendlier times we’d be sharing champagne for a fine discovery with CLOUD, that traces of ammonia can increase the production of the sulphuric clusters a thousandfold. It’s highlighted in the report’s title: “Role of sulphuric acid, ammonia and galactic cosmic rays in atmospheric aerosol nucleation” and it was made possible by the more elaborate chemical analysis in the big-team set-up in Geneva. In essence, the ammonia helps to stabilize the molecular clusters.
Although not saying it openly, the CLOUD team implies a put-down for the Danes with this result, repeatedly declaring that without ammonia there’d be little cluster production at low altitudes. But although the Aarhus experimenters did indeed assume the simpler reaction (H2SO4 + H2O), differing results in successive experimental runs made them suspect that varying amounts of trace impurities were present in the air cylinders used to fill their chamber. Now it looks as if a key impurity may have been ammonia. But some members of the CLOUD consortium also favoured (H2SO4 + H2O) and early runs in Geneva used no intentional ammonia. So they’ve little reason to scoff.
In any case, whether the basic chemistry is (H2SO4 + H2O) or (H2SO4 + H2O + NH3) is an academic rather than a practical point. There are always traces of ammonia in the real air, and according to the CLOUD report you need only one molecule in 30 billion. If that helps to oil Svensmark’s climatic motor, it’s good to know, but it calls for no apologies and alters the climatic implications not a jot.
The experiment’s logo. The acronym “Cosmics Leaving Outdoor Droplets” always implied strong interest in Svensmark’s hypothesis. And the roles of the Galaxy and the Sun are acknowledged.Technically, CLOUD is a welcome advance on the Danish experiments. Not only is the chemistry wider ranging but molecular clusters as small as 1.7 nanometres in diameter are detectable, compared with 4 nm in Denmark. And the set-up enables the scientists to study the ion chemistry at lower temperatures, corresponding to increasing altitudes in the atmosphere. Cluster production soars as the temperature goes down, until “almost every negative ion gives rise to a new particle” [i.e. molecular cluster]. The lowest temperature reported in the paper is -25 oC. That corresponds to an altitude of 6000 metres, so unless you wish to visualize a rain of cloud-seeding aerosols from on high, it’s not very relevant to Svensmark’s interest in the lowest 3000 metres.
How the warmists built their dam
Shifting from my insider’s perspective on the CLOUD experiment, to see it on the broader canvas of the politicized climate science of the early 21st Century, the chief reaction becomes a weary sigh of relief. Although they never said so, the High Priests of the Inconvenient Truth – in such temples as NASA-GISS, Penn State and the University of East Anglia – always knew that Svensmark’s cosmic ray hypothesis was the principal threat to their sketchy and poorly modelled notions of self-amplifying action of greenhouse gases.
In telling how the obviously large influences of the Sun in previous centuries and millennia could be explained, and in applying the same mechanism to the 20th warming, Svensmark put the alarmist predictions at risk – and with them the billions of dollars flowing from anxious governments into the global warming enterprise.
For the dam that was meant to ward off a growing stream of discoveries coming from the spring in Copenhagen, the foundation was laid on the day after the Danes first announced the link between cosmic rays and clouds at a space conference in Birmingham, England, in 1996. “Scientifically extremely naïve and irresponsible,”Bert Bolin declared, as Chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
As several journalists misbehaved by reporting the story from Birmingham, the top priority was to tame the media. The first courses of masonry ensured that anything that Svensmark and his colleagues might say would be ignored or, failing that, be promptly rubbished by a warmist scientist. Posh papers like The Times of London and the New York Times, and posh TV channels like the BBC’s, readily fell into line. Enthusiastically warmist magazines like New Scientist and Scientific Americanneeded no coaching.
Similarly the journals Nature and Science, which in my youth prided themselves on reports that challenged prevailing paradigms, gladly provided cement for higher masonry, to hold the wicked hypothesis in check at the scientific level. Starve Svensmark of funding. Reject his scientific papers but give free rein to anyone who criticizes him. Trivialize the findings in the Holy Writ of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. None of this is paranoia on my part, but a matter of close personal observation since 1996.
“It’s the Sun, stupid!” The story isn’t really about a bunch of naughty Danish physicists. They are just spokesmen for the most luminous agent of climate change. As the Sun was what the warmists really wanted to tame with their dam, they couldn’t do it. And coming to the Danes’ aid, by briefly blasting away many cosmic rays with great puffs of gas, the Sun enabled the team to trace in detail the consequent reduction in cloud seeding and liquid water in clouds. See my posthttp://calderup.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/do-clouds-disappear/ By the way, that research also disposes of a morsel of doubt in the new CLOUD paper, about whether the small specks made by cosmic rays really grow sufficiently to seed cloud droplets.
As knowledge accumulated behind their dam and threatened to overtop it, the warmists had one last course to lay. Paradoxically it was CLOUD. Long delays with this experiment to explore the microchemical mechanism of the Svensmark effect became the chief excuse for deferring any re-evaluation of the Sun’s role in climate change. When the microchemical mechanism was revealed prematurely by the SKY experiment in Copenhagen and published in 2006, the warmists said, “No particle accelerator? That won’t do! Wait for CLOUD.” When the experiment in Aarhus confirmed the mechanism using a particle accelerator they said, “Oh that’s just the Danes again! Wait for CLOUD.”
Well they’ve waited and their dam has failed them.
Hall of Shame
Retracing those 14 years, what if physics had functioned as it is supposed to do? What if CLOUD, quickly approved and funded, had verified the Svensmark effect with all the authority of CERN, in the early 2000s. What if the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change had done a responsible job, acknowledging the role of the Sun and curtailing the prophecies of catastrophic warming?
For a start there would have no surprise about the “travesty” that global warming has stopped since the mid-1990s, with the Sun becoming sulky. Vast sums might have been saved on misdirected research and technology, and on climate change fests and wheezes of every kind. The world’s poor and their fragile living environment could have had far more useful help than precautions against warming.
And there would have been less time for so many eminent folk from science, politics, industry, finance, the media and the arts to be taken in by man-made climate catastrophe. (In London, for example, from the Royal Society to the National Theatre.) Sadly for them, in the past ten years they’ve crowded with their warmist badges into a Hall of Shame, like bankers before the crash.
As I reported on May 14th, 2011 in Update on the CERN CLOUD experiment:
From Physics World Head in a CLOUD:
In this special video report for physicsworld.com CLOUD project leader Jasper Kirkby explains what his team is trying to achieve with its experiment. “We’re trying to understand what the connection is between a cosmic ray going through the atmosphere and the creation of so-called aerosol seeds – the seed for a cloud droplet or an ice particle,” Kirkby explains.
The CLOUD experiment recreates these cloud-forming processes by directing the beamline at CERN’s proton synchrotron into a stainless-steel chamber containing very pure air and selected trace gases.
One of the aims of the experiment is to discover details of cloud formation that could feed back into climate models. “Everybody agrees that clouds have a huge effect on the climate. But the understanding of how big that effect is is really very poorly known,” says Kirkby.
Here’s the video, click image below to launch it.
=====================================================
More coverage: Big hat tip to WUWT reader “Andrew20”
Cosmic rays get ahead in CLOUD
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2011/August/24081102.asp
Cloud formation may be linked to cosmic rays
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110824/full/news.2011.504.html
Cloud formation study casts a shadow over certain climate models
======================================================
Update: From Nigel Calder’s blog
A graph they’d prefer you not to notice. Tucked away near the end of online supplementary material, and omitted from the printed CLOUD paper in Nature, it clearly shows how cosmic rays promote the formation of clusters of molecules (“particles”) that in the real atmosphere can grow and seed clouds. In an early-morning experimental run at CERN, starting at 03.45, ultraviolet light began making sulphuric acid molecules in the chamber, while a strong electric field cleansed the air of ions. It also tended to remove molecular clusters made in the neutral environment (n) but some of these accumulated at a low rate. As soon as the electric field was switched off at 04.33, natural cosmic rays (gcr) raining down through the roof of the experimental hall in Geneva helped to build clusters at a higher rate. How do we know they were contributing? Because when, at 04.58, CLOUD simulated stronger cosmic rays with a beam of charged pion particles (ch) from the accelerator, the rate of cluster production became faster still. The various colours are for clusters of different diameters (in nanometres) as recorded by various instruments. The largest (black) took longer to grow than the smallest (blue). This is Fig. S2c from supplementary online material for J. Kirkby et al., Nature, 476, 429-433, © Nature 2011
@John Finn
Fossil fuel burning produces ~7 to 8 GtC per annum. The increase in the atmosphere is ~3 to 4 GtC per annum. CO2 concentrations in the oceans is increasing nor decreasing, i.e. they are not releasing more CO2, so where do you think the atmospheric increase might be coming from?
======================
Let’s stipulate your numbers IIMO your ranges are abit to tight). You are asking phlogiston to explain the appearance of extra 3-4 Gtc, could your explain where is the extra 3-4 Gtc disappearing that seems to be unaccounted for in your narrative.
Leif,
It would be helpful if you switch off the models and pay attention to the real world debates and effects going on.
The issue is not about whether to model or not. Models can be used a tools to assist in science but their output is to be verified and validated against empirical evidence. Nobody says that one should not model. By all means, build a model, test the assumptions and then validate the model against real data. And when the results don’t match the model assumptions or the hypothesis is wrong, not the data.
The issue discussed is about model predictions being treated as gospel and policy being made on that. That is the reality of the situation today. The issue is about none of the models being used in AGW circuit being verified or tested or validated. Yet billions are being spent and lives affected based upon model outputs which have not withstood the data test and bizarrely AGW modellers claim data is wrong when model outputs are contradicted by data.
So when something like Svensmark’s theory and Kirby’s work comes up to show that modellers haven’t even understood or considered other confounding factors affecting climate because of their total fixation on ACO2, the rest of us have to yell out and say, hang on, your models are wrong and you haven’t understood or modelled all the fundamental variables affecting climate. And we demand total verification, testing and validation of every model and demand that no more policy decisions be taken or money be spent based on models and theory which have been found fundamentally faulty. And when the AGW crowd refuse to show any data or information about any of their assumptions or inputs and they’ve also been shown to indulge in unethical practices, dodgy statistics, peer review gaming etc., all trust is gone on climate science and all bets are off.
I have no doubt that you are a honest and sincere scientist with an excellent track record. But the problem is that climate science as a whole has been tainted due to the antics of the AGW promoting climate science clique who have taken control of this field. And they have been allowed to go unchecked and untrammeled because of the silence of the rest of the climate scientists who did not make their voices heard and condemn bad practices and shoddy science.
So unless the rest of climate science speaks up, shuts out the miscreants, shows all data, methods and computer codes and allows it to be tested by all skeptics and show that they can withstand the testing and are reliable, please don’t feel offended if none of us believe anything any climate scientist says about models. The climate science field has shown itself to be unethical and unreliable and needs a complete clean out to restore respect to this branch of science.
izen
[I can see how there SHOULD be recent global cooling if CO2 is irrelevant and sunspot number controls it all as they peaked in the 1960s]
Jan 2010: +0.54 deg. C
July 2010: +0.42 deg. C
July 2011: +0.37 deg. C (your cherry)
Your suggested data source indicates that you understand the facts of the case:
Climate Change on Earth is Caused by changes the Magnetic Output of the Sun.
Carbon Dioxide is Irrelevant
The Thermal Mass of the Oceans slows rate of temperature change on Earth, thus there is a delay before we notice the effect.
Glad that we agree.
And wow, R.Gates has now switched to caling it Milankovitch Cycles from Milankovitch forcings!! He’s starting to learn slowly.
R. Gates
[You should get Nobel Prize for this “fact” that you’ve discovered!]
No, that will go to someone else.
[So we can just throw out all the data that show the strong correlation between Milankovitch cycles and climate over the last few million years eh]
You are right again. Glad we agree.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/25/global-warming-is-killing-the-stars/
Perhaps, correlation is not causation.
Dave Springer says:
August 27, 2011 at 5:48 am
In fact the surface of Venus gets no sunlight at all.
——
Wow! Then you will need to explain how the Russian space probes that landed on Venus took photos of the surface! It would be pitch black with “no sunlight at all”, but I’m sure you can explain this and other amazing science facts on the way to get your Nobel Prize.
John Whitman says:
August 26, 2011 at 9:21 am
I would very much appreciate more on your experience with critical climate scientists in China. Please post on it if you can.
__________
Depends on Antony if he invites me to write a short summary of my experience.
I have another paper under press, we may have some time to discuss both issues.
nicola
AnnaV says:
Look at the plankton response to ultraviolet that I linked a while ago.
Hi Anna!
I have also found some patterns in the warming –
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/henrys-pool-table-on-global-warming
i.e. it is not global at all.
This excludes the possibility that it is caused by an GH effect of the CO2
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/more-carbon-dioxide-is-ok-ok
(never mind the fact that very few people know how the GH effect works)
I have since been saying that the increased CO2 in the atmosphere acts as fertilizer and accelerator for (green) growth.
I found some strong evidence that it is cooling where there is much de-forestation and warming where there is increased forestry.
I have been trying to gather all the reasons why there is more warming in the NH and almost no warming in the SH. Your picture in that link shows more phyto plankton in the NH, is that correct? Do you know why?
John Finn:
At August 27, 2011 at 5:21 am you accurately quote from my post at August 27, 2011 at 3:39 am saying;
“The existing finding indicates that the initial nucleation provides most such droplets that are much too small to be cloud nuclei and that combination of such droplets would be required to induce the degree of observed cloud changes. Those observed cloud changes are important because they provide severe doubt to the AGW-hypothesis .”
Then ou ask me:
“How do observed cloud changes provide “severe doubt to the AGW hypothesis”. They might, perhaps, provide an argument against the higher end climate sensitivity figures – if global temperatures fail to rise – but that doesn’t mean AGW isn’t happening.”
There is much evidence that “AGW isn’t happening”; e.g. the missing ‘hot spot’, the ‘missing heat’, the missing ‘commited warming’, etc. Hence, severe doubt to the AGW hypothesis is provided by any possible and empirically supported alternative hypothesis which addresses the cause of recent global warming.
Please read the paragraph in my post from which you quote that says;
“Clouds reflect solar heat and a mere 2% increase to cloud cover would more than compensate for the maximum possible predicted warming due to a doubling of carbon dioxide in the air. Good records of cloud cover are very short because cloud cover is measured by satellites that were not launched until the mid 1980s. But it appears that cloudiness decreased markedly between the mid 1980s and late 1990s. Over that period, the Earth’s reflectivity decreased to the extent that if there were a constant solar irradiance then the reduced cloudiness provided an extra surface warming of 5 to 10 Watts/sq metre. This is a lot of warming. It is between two and four times the entire warming estimated to have been caused by the build-up of human-caused greenhouse gases in the atmosphere since the industrial revolution. (The UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says that since the industrial revolution, the build-up of human-caused greenhouse gases in the atmosphere has had a warming effect of only 2.4 W/sq metre).”
Please do not try to pretend that does not provide severe doubt to the AGW hypothesis.
Richard
Venter says:
August 27, 2011 at 5:09 am
“It may have escaped your attention, but based on this theory and unverified models, billions of dollars of taxpayers’ money are being spent affecting millions of people worldwide under the scare of CO2 and ‘Carbon Pollution’. So these unverified models and this unverified theory is affecting and hitting people worldwide real time. And that’s the scam here.”
This is exactly what AGWers who chirp out the word “denier” refuse to acknowledge.
Perhaps we should call for the denial of public funds that supports their scare tactics.
As an aside, take a look at the forecasting (take note I said forecasting not predicting) that has been taking place in regards to Irene. Even when using models programmed to analyse real data based on past performances they are only useful as guides and estimates. They are by no means the final word although GFS seems to be the most reliable.
@-Dave Springer says:
August 27, 2011 at 5:48 am
“The surface temperature on Venus IS because of the atmosphere trapping heat but it IS NOT because the atmosphere is trapping heat from the sun. The atmosphere is trapping heat from the molten core of the planet. In fact the surface of Venus gets no sunlight at all.”
Dave, I love this explanation….
Of course it requires that the atmosphere is such a powerful insulator that it prevents the higher surface temperature from being lost to space, a prime example of radiative forcing!
I also await with great interest just what light the pictures of the surface of Venus were taken with if it was not (diffused) sunlight. The glow from a nearby volcano perhaps, or did the probes use flash photography ?!
http://mentallandscape.com/V_DigitalImages.htm
Unfortunately its not possible given the physical constraints of crust thickness and thermal conductivity – unless you are suggesting an iron crust with MUCH more nuclear heating in the core!
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1976Icar…28..423M
@- DEEBEE says:
August 27, 2011 at 5:52 am
“You are asking phlogiston to explain the appearance of extra 3-4 Gtc, could your explain where is the extra 3-4 Gtc disappearing that seems to be unaccounted for in your narrative.”
Increased biomass on land and in the oceans and increased chemical absorption in the oceans causing the reduction in pH.
However the constraints on the CO2 sinks are one of the big unknowns. There are few possible mechanisms to absorb or remove vastly increased quantities of CO2 from the atmosphere, at least in short human timescales. But there ARE a number of credible processes that could release vast quantities of CO2. It has happened before… -PETM?
Izen:
Your sophistry is annoying.
You asked me to answer a question. I did.
Wave your arms and try to change the subject as much as you want but I will not waste more time on you and – try as you may – it is extremely unlikely that you will overtake R Gates for illogicality so I suggest that you stop trying.
Richard
Leif Svalgaard:
At August 27, 2011 at 5:43 am you say to Venter:
“The issue was not whether the models are wrong [which they are], but whether it makes sense to model at all [which it does].”
If I understand you correctly, then I strongly agree with you. The models are very useful heuristic tools.
However, the models are being misused as predictive tools and that misuse converts them into being mere computer games.
No model’s predictions should be trusted unless the model has demonstrated forecasting skill.
None of the climate models has existed for 20, 50 or 100 years so it is not possible to assess their predictive capability on the basis of their demonstrated forecasting skill; i.e. they have no demonstrated forecasting skill and, therefore, their predictions are unreliable.
The ability of a computer model to appear to represent existing reality is no guide to the model’s predictive ability. For example, the computer model called ‘F1 Racing’ is commercially available. It is based on physical principles (if it were not then the racing cars would not behave realistically), and ‘F1 Racing’ is a much more accurate representation of motor racing than any GCM is of global climate. But the ability of a person to win a race as demonstrated by ‘F1 Racing’ is not an indication that the person could or would win the Monte Carlo Grande Prix if put in a real racing car. Similarly, an appearance of reality provided by a GCM cannot be taken as an indication of the GCM’s predictive ability in the absence of the GCM having any demonstrated forecasting skill.
Put bluntly, predictions of the future provided by existing climate models have the same degree of demonstrated reliability as has the casting of chicken bones for predicting the future.
And no two climate models are the same so they each give a different and probably wrong prediction of the future.
Richard
And here’s a post by D.Roger Pielke Senior about one more climate study based on models
http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2011/08/26/another-climate-forecast-paper-masqueradingas-a-robust-scientific-result/
The title of the post says it all. We are fed with constant pre-digested pap in the form of climate models masquerading as science.
And not a peep from the rest of the climate science community denouncing such shoddy studies. And people here claim that models account for everything.
@- Sean Peake says: (Re- paleoclimate changes are associated with changes in CO2 levels)
August 27, 2011 at 5:19 am
“Can you give me the sources/citations to support that statement?”
Try –
http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm09/lectures/lecture_videos/A23A.shtml
He mentions the source research for the conclusions in the talk.
Izen,
“AGW theory claims anthropogenic CO2 is increasing global temperature. Because of the physical process invoked by the theory the warming would be predicted to be of greater magnitude at night, at high latitudes and confined to the lower troposphere with cooling of the stratosphere.
The measured warming, and its pattern of distribution, the measured changes in the magnitude and spectra of the TOA emissions and the surface back radiation and the measured changes in CO2 levels fingerprinted by the isotope ration to human sources are the ‘validating datum’ in your terminology.”
Well, it all depends on what you mean by AGW theory. Unfortunately the term is so nebulous that it means different things to different people. However, if by ‘AGW Theory’ you mean the theory that human produced CO2 has a warming effect on the Earth due to the radiative properties that the molecules have, then you may be correct.
If by AGW theory, on the other hand, you are including all the attendant feedbacks assumed by the IPCC, leading to much higher levels of warming than the radiative properties of CO2 would allow, then your statement is incorrect. Lindzen has shown that feedbacks are net negative and the only predictions made – high rates of tropical midtroposphere warming due to water vapour feedback – have been falsified.
If AGW is a theory, it has set a new low in what a theory is supposed to be.
Dave Springer says:
August 27, 2011 at 5:48 am
It’s not at all difficult to explain. It’s the same reason that the earth’s mantle is hotter than anywhere on Mercury. Mercury wasn’t able to retain a molten core.
“It is not the the things you know that gets you in trouble, but the things you know that ain’t so” [Mark Twain]
Most of Mercury’s core is molten: http://www.solstation.com/solsys/e-m2core.jpg
Venter says:
August 27, 2011 at 6:05 am
The issue discussed is about model predictions being treated as gospel and policy being made on that.
That is not the fault of the modelers. That is the fault of people you have voted for. I agree that the policy is stupid, but people deserve what they vote for. That you don’t want to spend billions is understandable, but elected politicians squander billions on things like war and ill-advised subsidizes, so what’s the difference? You take your displeasure as input to your assessment of science, and THAT is wrong.
So when something like Svensmark’s theory and Kirby’s work comes up to show that modellers haven’t even understood or considered other confounding factors affecting climate
Svensmark and [especially] Kirkby have shown nothing of the kind. To say that the modelers ‘have not understood’ something is very wrong. You are suggesting they are morons. If anything, Svensmark has not been able to quantify the process [and Kirkby shows that it is not sufficient as the observed effect is much too small] in terms of physical variables that can be modeled. If such quantification had been made, it could have been incorporated into models, but would then run up against the fact that the cosmic ray activity has not shown any significant trend the past 60 years.
@- Vince Causey says:
August 27, 2011 at 7:58 am
“Well, it all depends on what you mean by AGW theory. Unfortunately the term is so nebulous that it means different things to different people. However, if by ‘AGW Theory’ you mean the theory that human produced CO2 has a warming effect on the Earth due to the radiative properties that the molecules have, then you may be correct.”
There is no ‘MAY BE’ about it!
-grin-
-“If by AGW theory, on the other hand, you are including all the attendant feedbacks assumed by the IPCC, leading to much higher levels of warming than the radiative properties of CO2 would allow, then your statement is incorrect. ”
I tried to state the theory as succinctly as possible in my original post, as for all the additional science –
You can regard them as subsidiary hypothesis if you prefer…
-“Lindzen has shown that feedbacks are net negative and the only predictions made – high rates of tropical midtroposphere warming due to water vapour feedback – have been falsified. ”
Lindzen’s negative feedback model is another subsidiary hypothesis competing with all the others about feedbacks and alternative forcings (including CLOUD) in an evolutionary contest for the survival of the fittest!
high rates of tropical midtroposphere warming due to water vapour feedback have been observed over short timescales in response to short warming events. The observational record, and modeling uncertainties make it impossible to either confirm or refute the presence of any long term trend in this particular feedback.
However the increase in atmospheric water vapor in response to the rising global temperatures has been observed. It is difficult to see how to negate the known ‘Greenhouse effect’ of increasing water vapor.
-“If AGW is a theory, it has set a new low in what a theory is supposed to be.”
You must lead a sheltered (scientific) life.
Compared to some of the stuff that emerges in the biological sciences AGW is a paragon of elegance !
@-Leif Svalgaard says:Re-(The issue discussed is about model predictions being treated as gospel and policy being made on that.)-
“That is not the fault of the modelers. That is the fault of people you have voted for. I agree that the policy is stupid, but people deserve what they vote for. That you don’t want to spend billions is understandable, but elected politicians squander billions on things like war and ill-advised subsidizes, so what’s the difference? You take your displeasure as input to your assessment of science, and THAT is wrong.”
I hope you will not object if I use this (with attribution!?)
Brilliant !!!
Leif Svalgaard says:
August 27, 2011 at 3:24 am
Theo Goodwin says:
August 26, 2011 at 11:02 pm
Gaia modelers have no physical hypotheses about cloud formation. Kirkby just demonstrated that.
“Kitkby did nothing of the kind. On the contrary, he just demonstrated that his own hypothesis was wrong.”
Kirkby was using the unexamined climate modeler belief that water vapior, sulphuric acid, and ammonia are enough for cloud formation. He discovered that this unexamined hypothesis is false. In the course of examining the unexamined hypothesis, he made an important scientific advance. See, discovering that your hypothesis is false always means scientific advance. By contrast, insisting that your hypotheses, epicycles, cannot be false locks you into stagnation that can last 1400 years (Ptolemy to Copernicus). Leif, you must learn the joy of falsification.
So, now, Kirkby is off on a new scientific adventure as he searches for the additional ingredient. And climate modelers are trying to figure how to both embrace and reject Kirkby’s work, with rejection getting the headlines of course.
@- Theo Goodwin says:
August 27, 2011 at 10:17 am
“Kirkby was using the unexamined climate modeler belief that water vapior, sulphuric acid, and ammonia are enough for cloud formation. He discovered that this unexamined hypothesis is false….
So, now, Kirkby is off on a new scientific adventure as he searches for the additional ingredient. And climate modelers are trying to figure how to both embrace and reject Kirkby’s work, with rejection getting the headlines of course.”
I would expect that the present assumption or ‘unexamined hypothesis’ of climate modelers is that clouds will form when physical (thermodynamic) conditions cause condensation of water vapor. I doubt there is considered to be any limitation from CCN availability, there is little evidence for the extended persistence of supersaturated air masses. The role of DMS, Sahara sand storms, Radon decay and a range of natural and anthropogenic particulates and organics also provide abundant CCN. Unless there is good evidence for a physical process that limits or amplify cloud formation OTHER than the temperature/pressure/humidity conditions then there is no reason to include independent modulation of cloud formation. Some modelers at least do include the impact of major volcanic eruptions that can alter stratospheric chemistry and cloud formation.
I repeat my prediction from an earlier post that in around a years time Kirkby will be announcing the enormous effect of trace DMS, SOx/NOx and similar organic/volitile atmospheric components. With little influence from changes in the level of ionizing radiation!
Of course I could be wrong, the negligible effect of ionizing radiation on nuclei formation at the boundary layer may become a significant catalyst to nuclei formation when it is potentiated by the presence of natural and human particles/chemicals required for CCNs.
But as Leif has pointed out that still collides with the ugly little fact that there is no significant trend in our measurements of cosmic ray flux for sixty years.
Or very much sign of the sunspot cycles in the clouds or climate.
Theo Goodwin says:
August 27, 2011 at 10:17 am
Kirkby was using the unexamined climate modeler belief that water vapor, sulphuric acid, and ammonia are enough for cloud formation. He discovered that this unexamined hypothesis is false.
Perhaps you should read their paper http://www.leif.org/EOS/nature10343Kirkby.pdf
“For typical boundary-layer ammonia mixing ratios, below about 1 p.p.b.v., ternary nucleation of NH3–H2SO4–H2O, with or without ions, is unable to explain atmospheric observations. This implies that other species, most probably organic compounds, are necessary for boundary-layer nucleation.”
What he showed was that other aerosols [of which there can be many] participate in formation of clouds, regardless of ions [cosmic rays]. This is, of course, of interest, but does not in any way confirm Svensmark’s mechanism as the ions are not needed. Your use of ‘unexamined’ is silly. Nobody has ever suggested that NH3–H2SO4–H2O were the only ingredients needed for formation of clouds. Any dust particle will do as well or even ice crystals by freezing of water vapor. Here is an ‘examination’ of the process and a model build on that: http://www.atm.ox.ac.uk/group/eodg/1st_year_reports/rosalind_west.pdf
[But as Leif has pointed out that still collides with the ugly little fact that there is no significant trend in our measurements of cosmic ray flux for sixty years.]
OOpps…
Indian Journal of Radio and Space Physics
Volume 35, December 2006. pp 387-395
Correlation of the long-term cosmic ray intensity variation with sunspot numbers and tilt angle
…
Introduction:
The long-term behavior of cosmic rays in relation to solar activity has been extensively studied by many authors and different epochs. Now it is an established fact that galactic cosmic rays are inversely correlated with sunspot numbers, having their maximum intensity at the minimum of the sunspot cycle.
…
See : Figure 2.
—
Actual Measured Data, not a computer model, not a simulation, Real Data from the Real World.
Sunspots go UP cosmic rays go Down.
http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/3932/1/IJRSP%2035%286%29%20387-395.pdf
Andrew30 says:
August 27, 2011 at 11:36 am
Sunspots go UP cosmic rays go Down.
And sunspots go DOWN cosmic rays to up, and as the sunspot cycle is cyclic there is no net trend. Here is the real data since the 1950s: slides 7 & 8 of http://www.leif.org/research/Historical%20Solar%20Cycle%20Context.pdf or here:
http://neutronm.bartol.udel.edu/catch/cr3.html