BREAKING NEWS – CERN Experiment Confirms Cosmic Rays Influence Cloud Seeds

UPDATE: see some reactions to this announcement here

From the GWPF

This refers to the CLOUD experiment at CERN.

I’ll have more on this as it develops (updated twice since the original report now), but for the short term, it appears that a non-visible light irradiance effect on Earth’s cloud seeds has been confirmed. The way it is posited to work is that the  effect of cosmic rays (modulated by the sun’s magnetic variations which either allow more or deflect more cosmic rays) creates cloud condensation nuclei in the Earth’s atmosphere. With more condensation nuclei, more clouds form and vice-versa. Clouds have significant effects on TSI at the surface.

Even the IPCC has admitted this in their latest (2007) report:

“Cloud feedbacks are the primary source of inter-model differences in equilibrium climate sensitivity, with low cloud being the largest contributor”.

Update: From the Nature article, Kirkby is a bit more muted in his assessment than the GWPF:

Early results seem to indicate that cosmic rays do cause a change. The high-energy protons seemed to enhance the production of nanometre-sized particles from the gaseous atmosphere by more than a factor of ten. But, Kirkby adds, those particles are far too small to serve as seeds for clouds. “At the moment, it actually says nothing about a possible cosmic-ray effect on clouds and climate, but it’s a very important first step,” he says.

Update: Bizarrely, New Scientist headlines with: Cloud-making: Another human effect on the climate

================================================================

CERN Experiment Confirms Cosmic Rays Influence Climate Change.

by  Nigel Calder

Long-anticipated results of the CLOUD experiment at CERN in Geneva appear in tomorrow’s issue of the journal Nature (25 August). The Director General of CERN stirred controversy last month, by saying that the CLOUD team’s report should be politically correct about climate change (see my 17 July post below). The implication was that they should on no account endorse the Danish heresy – Henrik Svensmark’s hypothesis that most of the global warming of the 20th Century can be explained by the reduction in cosmic rays due to livelier solar activity, resulting in less low cloud cover and warmer surface temperatures.

Willy-nilly the results speak for themselves, and it’s no wonder the Director General was fretful.

Jasper Kirkby of CERN and his 62 co-authors, from 17 institutes in Europe and the USA, announce big effects of pions from an accelerator, which simulate the cosmic rays and ionize the air in the experimental chamber. The pions strongly promote the formation of clusters of sulphuric acid and water molecules – aerosols of the kind that may grow into cloud condensation nuclei on which cloud droplets form. What’s more, there’s a very important clarification of the chemistry involved.

A breach of etiquette

My interest in CLOUD goes back nearly 14 years, to a lecture I gave at CERN about Svensmark’s discovery of the link between cosmic rays and cloudiness. It piqued Kirkby’s curiosity, and both Svensmark and I were among those who helped him to prepare his proposal for CLOUD.

By an unpleasant irony, the only Svensmark contribution acknowledged in theNature report is the 1997 paper (Svensmark and Friis-Christensen) on which I based my CERN lecture. There’s no mention of the successful experiments in ion chemistry and molecular cluster formation by the Danish team in Copenhagen, Boulby and latterly in Aarhus where they beat CLOUD to the first results obtained using a particle beam (instead of gamma rays and natural cosmic rays) to ionize the air in the experimental chamber – see http://calderup.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/accelerator-results-on-cloud-nucleation-2/

What will historians of science make of this breach of scientific etiquette? That Kirkby was cross because Svensmark, losing patience with the long delay in getting approval and funding for CLOUD, took matters into his own hands? Or because Svensmark’s candour about cosmic rays casting doubt on catastrophic man-made global warming frightened the national funding agencies? Or was Kirkby simply doing his best (despite the results) to obey his Director General by slighting all things Danish?

Personal rivalries aside, the important question is what the new CLOUD paper means for the Svensmark hypothesis. Pick your way through the cautious prose and you’ll find this:

Ion-induced nucleation [cosmic ray action] will manifest itself as a steady production of new particles [molecular clusters] that is difficult to isolate in atmospheric observations because of other sources of variability but is nevertheless taking place and could be quite large when averaged globally over the troposphere [the lower atmosphere].”

It’s so transparently favourable to what the Danes have said all along that I’m surprised the warmists’ house magazine Nature is able to publish it, even omitting the telltale graph shown at the start of this post. Added to the already favourable Danish experimental findings, the more detailed CERN result is excellent. Thanks a million, Jasper.

Enlightening chemistry

And in friendlier times we’d be sharing champagne for a fine discovery with CLOUD, that traces of ammonia can increase the production of the sulphuric clusters a thousandfold. It’s highlighted in the report’s title: “Role of sulphuric acid, ammonia and galactic cosmic rays in atmospheric aerosol nucleation” and it was made possible by the more elaborate chemical analysis in the big-team set-up in Geneva. In essence, the ammonia helps to stabilize the molecular clusters.

Although not saying it openly, the CLOUD team implies a put-down for the Danes with this result, repeatedly declaring that without ammonia there’d be little cluster production at low altitudes. But although the Aarhus experimenters did indeed assume the simpler reaction (H2SO4 + H2O), differing results in successive experimental runs made them suspect that varying amounts of trace impurities were present in the air cylinders used to fill their chamber. Now it looks as if a key impurity may have been ammonia. But some members of the CLOUD consortium also favoured (H2SO4 + H2O) and early runs in Geneva used no intentional ammonia. So they’ve little reason to scoff.

In any case, whether the basic chemistry is (H2SO4 + H2O) or (H2SO4 + H2O + NH3) is an academic rather than a practical point. There are always traces of ammonia in the real air, and according to the CLOUD report you need only one molecule in 30 billion. If that helps to oil Svensmark’s climatic motor, it’s good to know, but it calls for no apologies and alters the climatic implications not a jot.

The experiment’s logo. The acronym “Cosmics Leaving Outdoor Droplets” always implied strong interest in Svensmark’s hypothesis. And the roles of the Galaxy and the Sun are acknowledged.

Technically, CLOUD is a welcome advance on the Danish experiments. Not only is the chemistry wider ranging but molecular clusters as small as 1.7 nanometres in diameter are detectable, compared with 4 nm in Denmark. And the set-up enables the scientists to study the ion chemistry at lower temperatures, corresponding to increasing altitudes in the atmosphere. Cluster production soars as the temperature goes down, until “almost every negative ion gives rise to a new particle” [i.e. molecular cluster]. The lowest temperature reported in the paper is -25 oC. That corresponds to an altitude of 6000 metres, so unless you wish to visualize a rain of cloud-seeding aerosols from on high, it’s not very relevant to Svensmark’s interest in the lowest 3000 metres.

How the warmists built their dam

Shifting from my insider’s perspective on the CLOUD experiment, to see it on the broader canvas of the politicized climate science of the early 21st Century, the chief reaction becomes a weary sigh of relief. Although they never said so, the High Priests of the Inconvenient Truth – in such temples as NASA-GISS, Penn State and the University of East Anglia – always knew that Svensmark’s cosmic ray hypothesis was the principal threat to their sketchy and poorly modelled notions of self-amplifying action of greenhouse gases.

In telling how the obviously large influences of the Sun in previous centuries and millennia could be explained, and in applying the same mechanism to the 20th warming, Svensmark put the alarmist predictions at risk – and with them the billions of dollars flowing from anxious governments into the global warming enterprise.

For the dam that was meant to ward off a growing stream of discoveries coming from the spring in Copenhagen, the foundation was laid on the day after the Danes first announced the link between cosmic rays and clouds at a space conference in Birmingham, England, in 1996. “Scientifically extremely naïve and irresponsible,”Bert Bolin declared, as Chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

As several journalists misbehaved by reporting the story from Birmingham, the top priority was to tame the media. The first courses of masonry ensured that anything that Svensmark and his colleagues might say would be ignored or, failing that, be promptly rubbished by a warmist scientist. Posh papers like The Times of London and the New York Times, and posh TV channels like the BBC’s, readily fell into line. Enthusiastically warmist magazines like New Scientist and Scientific Americanneeded no coaching.

Similarly the journals Nature and Science, which in my youth prided themselves on reports that challenged prevailing paradigms, gladly provided cement for higher masonry, to hold the wicked hypothesis in check at the scientific level. Starve Svensmark of funding. Reject his scientific papers but give free rein to anyone who criticizes him. Trivialize the findings in the Holy Writ of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. None of this is paranoia on my part, but a matter of close personal observation since 1996.

“It’s the Sun, stupid!” The story isn’t really about a bunch of naughty Danish physicists. They are just spokesmen for the most luminous agent of climate change. As the Sun was what the warmists really wanted to tame with their dam, they couldn’t do it. And coming to the Danes’ aid, by briefly blasting away many cosmic rays with great puffs of gas, the Sun enabled the team to trace in detail the consequent reduction in cloud seeding and liquid water in clouds. See my posthttp://calderup.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/do-clouds-disappear/ By the way, that research also disposes of a morsel of doubt in the new CLOUD paper, about whether the small specks made by cosmic rays really grow sufficiently to seed cloud droplets.

As knowledge accumulated behind their dam and threatened to overtop it, the warmists had one last course to lay. Paradoxically it was CLOUD. Long delays with this experiment to explore the microchemical mechanism of the Svensmark effect became the chief excuse for deferring any re-evaluation of the Sun’s role in climate change. When the microchemical mechanism was revealed prematurely by the SKY experiment in Copenhagen and published in 2006, the warmists said, “No particle accelerator? That won’t do! Wait for CLOUD.” When the experiment in Aarhus confirmed the mechanism using a particle accelerator they said, “Oh that’s just the Danes again! Wait for CLOUD.”

Well they’ve waited and their dam has failed them.

Hall of Shame

Retracing those 14 years, what if physics had functioned as it is supposed to do? What if CLOUD, quickly approved and funded, had verified the Svensmark effect with all the authority of CERN, in the early 2000s. What if the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change had done a responsible job, acknowledging the role of the Sun and curtailing the prophecies of catastrophic warming?

For a start there would have no surprise about the “travesty” that global warming has stopped since the mid-1990s, with the Sun becoming sulky. Vast sums might have been saved on misdirected research and technology, and on climate change fests and wheezes of every kind. The world’s poor and their fragile living environment could have had far more useful help than precautions against warming.

And there would have been less time for so many eminent folk from science, politics, industry, finance, the media and the arts to be taken in by man-made climate catastrophe. (In London, for example, from the Royal Society to the National Theatre.) Sadly for them, in the past ten years they’ve crowded with their warmist badges into a Hall of Shame, like bankers before the crash.

=========================================================

As I reported on May 14th, 2011 in  Update on the CERN CLOUD experiment:

From Physics World Head in a CLOUD:

In this special video report for physicsworld.com CLOUD project leader Jasper Kirkby explains what his team is trying to achieve with its experiment. “We’re trying to understand what the connection is between a cosmic ray going through the atmosphere and the creation of so-called aerosol seeds – the seed for a cloud droplet or an ice particle,” Kirkby explains.

The CLOUD experiment recreates these cloud-forming processes by directing the beamline at CERN’s proton synchrotron into a stainless-steel chamber containing very pure air and selected trace gases.

One of the aims of the experiment is to discover details of cloud formation that could feed back into climate models. “Everybody agrees that clouds have a huge effect on the climate. But the understanding of how big that effect is is really very poorly known,” says Kirkby.

Here’s the video, click image below to launch it.

=====================================================

More coverage: Big hat tip to WUWT reader “Andrew20”

Cosmic rays get ahead in CLOUD

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2011/August/24081102.asp

Cloud formation may be linked to cosmic rays

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110824/full/news.2011.504.html

Cloud formation study casts a shadow over certain climate models

http://www.u.tv/News/Cloud-formation-study-casts-a-shadow-over-certain-climate-models/ddd312e6-c710-49d0-9a5d-e41e544024a9

======================================================

Update: From Nigel Calder’s blog

A graph they’d prefer you not to notice. Tucked away near the end of online supplementary material, and omitted from the printed CLOUD paper in Nature, it clearly shows how cosmic rays promote the formation of clusters of molecules (“particles”) that in the real atmosphere can grow and seed clouds. In an early-morning experimental run at CERN, starting at 03.45, ultraviolet light began making sulphuric acid molecules in the chamber, while a strong electric field cleansed the air of ions. It also tended to remove molecular clusters made in the neutral environment (n) but some of these accumulated at a low rate. As soon as the electric field was switched off at 04.33, natural cosmic rays (gcr) raining down through the roof of the experimental hall in Geneva helped to build clusters at a higher rate. How do we know they were contributing? Because when, at 04.58, CLOUD simulated stronger cosmic rays with a beam of charged pion particles (ch) from the accelerator, the rate of cluster production became faster still. The various colours are for clusters of different diameters (in nanometres) as recorded by various instruments. The largest (black) took longer to grow than the smallest (blue). This is Fig. S2c from supplementary online material for J. Kirkby et al., Nature, 476, 429-433, © Nature 2011
The climate data they don't want you to find — free, to your inbox.
Join readers who get 5–8 new articles daily — no algorithms, no shadow bans.
0 0 votes
Article Rating
758 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Jeremy
August 25, 2011 12:55 pm

izen says:
August 25, 2011 at 11:40 am
Along with extensive direct measurement of how thermal energy propagates through the atmosphere as a result of military research into missile detection systems and the direct measurement of changes in the magnitude and spectra of the outgoing radiation at TOA and the downwelling energy at the surface.

Yeah, about those changes in the magnitude and spectra of outgoing radiation:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/16/new-paper-from-lindzen-and-choi-implies-that-the-models-are-exaggerating-climate-sensitivity/
Oh noes! Another experimental observation!

I don’t know what R Gates would reply, but mine is Quantum physics.
E=T^4

So your counter argument is a black-body relation of temperature to energy? That would seem to imply the earth is a perfect black body, or at least close to it. If so, why are we worried about excess CO2? Black bodies reach stable equilibrium with exterior energy inputs by natural law. CO2 concentration (and “related positive feedbacks”) in the atmosphere is an internal influence on the earth’s outgoing radiation, if you’re saying that CO2 (and “related positive feedbacks”) can change the total energy of the system and then saying that the reason interglacials do not experience run-away temperature with CO2 and their “related positive feedbacks” is because the earth is a black body you are making a very circular argument indeed.
Here’s your argument now summarized… “CO2 alters the radiative imbalance on earth, causing more energy to be retained by the earth, but the reason the earth doesn’t warm up forever and continue to accumulate energy is because it is a black body.”
It’s abject nonsense.

R. Gates
August 25, 2011 1:07 pm

Jeremy says:
August 25, 2011 at 10:45 am
Here’s a counter question. If these “related positive feedbacks” are responsible for interglacial, what slows them down? What negative feedback stops the progression to ever-warmer temperatures? Why is the system stable after reaching interglacial temperatures? Also, since we are presumably in an interglacial, and all other interglacials have not gone into positive-feedback-runaway, why should we fear excess CO2 in the air now since history hasn’t shown that temperature ever runs away from us during the interglacials?
Your answer will be amusing. Not might be, will be.
_____
This is an excellent question, and has been answered far more eloquently than I could here:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/positive-feedback-runaway-warming.htm
or for more advance look here:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/positive-feedback-runaway-warming-advanced.htm

izen
August 25, 2011 1:19 pm

@- Dave Springer says:
August 25, 2011 at 12:23 pm
“I might also remind you that CO2 warming is based upon no more than correlation.”
If you do it is a false memory. The warming from CO2 is based on measurements of its physical properties since Tyndall and measurement of the changes in the magnitude and spectrum of the outgoing and back radiation.
-” Famously its strongest support is that “the models” don’t agree well with observations without adding in a forcing from CO2…”
Actually you have this backwards. The match between models and measured reality when the CO2 forcing is included is the strongest support that MODELS are accurate. It is already known from direct measurement that CO2 is a forcing.
The results of CLOUD so far show a much greater effect at (simulated) high altitude and low temperature. 3km and -25degC are mentioned I think.
If this is the case then any effect by cosmic rays on clouds will be dominant in the mid to high troposphere.
Not on the low thick clouds credited with the most cooling effect. In this case cosmic ray flux could modulate high thin clouds which may have a net warming effect.
Perhaps the last ten decades of increasing average decadel temperatures could then be attributed to 100 years of cosmic ray flux !!
-grin-

August 25, 2011 1:29 pm

R.Gates – #1 – Where else to get information than the cathedral of the religion – Skeptical Science.
#2 – While they attempt to answer the question, they beg more questions, and soon an intelligent readers realizes they are clueless. So positive feedback diminishes. At what rate and when? No answer. Could it be immediately? no answer. Could it be that the positive feedback does not get started due to dampening in the first place? no answer.
I am sure your faith is strong. But your faith is not my science.

Jeremy
August 25, 2011 2:05 pm

R. Gates says:
August 25, 2011 at 1:07 pm
This is an excellent question, and has been answered far more eloquently than I could here:

FTL:

In both of these cases, the “effect” reinforces the “cause”, which will increase the “effect”, which will reinforce the “cause”… So won’t this spin out of control? The answer is, No, it will not, because each subsequent stage of reinforcement & increase will be weaker and weaker. The feedback cycles will go on and on, but there will be a diminishing of returns, so that after just a few cycles, it won’t matter anymore.

1) This concedes CAGW cannot happen.
2) This means I should not worry about temperature increase or positive feedbacks (presuming they even dominate negative feedbacks) as a result of human-released CO2. If it is conceded that successive feedbacks have diminishing returns (as anyone familiar with thermodynamics knows), then CO2 or its “related positive feedbacks” cannot be a boogeyman to the earths climate.
3) This ignores negative feedbacks entirely, even though many papers have been written on them.
Your link makes me wonder why you’re even here defending AGW as a worthy line of investigation. It seems like you’re conceding it is on par with trying to discover if eggs are good for the average human. That is to say possibly useful in an academic sense, but clearly impractical to everyone and not worth the money spent. Since the concession here is that positive feedbacks can’t lead to a loss of stability in earths climate system and extra warmth (should it even occur) would just mean Canada and Siberia have an easier time feeding themselves, why are you even wasting your good years of typing on this message board defending its importance?

Shevva
August 25, 2011 2:05 pm
August 25, 2011 2:06 pm

Well I can’t talk in science speak but one thing has occurred to me for some time and the linked New Scientist article brought it back to me, The article talks of the fact that although the sun has become increasingly inactive that cloud cover obviously hasn’t increased as we’ve seen no real cooling yet. However surely clouds are a double edged sword in that they also trap heat, so if there was an increase in cloud cover surely initially heat would be trapped as the vast heat/energy content in the oceans is less able to radiate out into space, and this process could go on for some time until the heat/energy budget starts to run into deficit. Naybe that would explain the levelling off of temperature rise over the last 11 odd years.
Hey what do I know.

Editor
August 25, 2011 2:12 pm

bob paglee says: “I tried to click on Dr. Kirkby’s photo to see his video presentation but it wouldn’t work for me.”
Thanks for the link. You need to update your ADOBE Flash Player for the video, I believe:
http://www.adobe.com/software/flash/about/

izen
August 25, 2011 2:38 pm

@- Jeremy says:
August 25, 2011 at 12:55 pm
“Here’s your argument now summarized… “CO2 alters the radiative imbalance on earth, causing more energy to be retained by the earth, but the reason the earth doesn’t warm up forever and continue to accumulate energy is because it is a black body.”
It’s abject nonsense.”
Your right,its nonsense… but then that is not quite my argument. CO2 alters the gradient of energy distribution within the atmosphere.
Because a temperature rise requires a much larger increase in energy for each subsequent increment, a ‘runaway’ temperature rise would require a fourth exponential growth in available energy. That is a massive negative feedback on all the possible positive feedbacks.
But the REAL reason a runaway greenhouse is not possible is there is not enough Carbon available to turn into CO2. Most of it is sequestered in rocks by geological and biological processes.
Unlike Venus where most of it is in the atmosphere.
Perhaps you could get a runaway greenhouse if the levels of very powerful GHGs were increased, some of the CFCs have a ‘greenhouse’ effect thousands of times greater than CO2 so increasing the levels of such gases might have the effect thousands of time that of CO2…!

Don Keiller
August 25, 2011 3:01 pm

Love to see what would happen if some dimethylsulphide was added to the test chamber http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/dimethyl/overview.php
Still when the results have been properly adjusted and homogenised, they will show it is still my exhaust pipe to blame.

August 25, 2011 3:21 pm

Nearly 500 readers of this thread have looked at
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/NorthAtlanticOutlook.htm
some may wandered about the backdating of the all important red line graph.
It does surprisingly well for 350 years, both with the actual temperature and the sunspot records:
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/CET-NAP-SSN.htm
Looking for the climate change cause :
CO2 – definitely NOT !
Cosmic Rays – questionable ( ? )
North Atlantic Precursor (NAP) – a good candidate with both the necessary power and high correlation, which neither CO2 or CRs possesses to the degree required.
Science is far from settled !

Richard
August 25, 2011 3:32 pm

CERN final conclusion: “However,
 it 
is 
premature 
to 
conclude 
that 
cosmic
 rays 
have 
a 
significant 
influence
 on 
climate 
until
 the
 additional
 nucleating
 vapours
 have
 been
 identified,
 their
 ion
 enhancement
 measured,
 and
 the
 ultimate
 effects
 on
 clouds
 have
 been
 confirmed.”
http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2011/downloads/CLOUD_SI_press-briefing_29JUL11.pdf
——————————————————————————————————-
And Gavin over at Realclimate has said there hasn’t been any trend in cosmic rays for the last 50 years. So the warmists can write this off and still say `it`s the co2, stupid.` Good to see Svensmark’s work about cosmic rays proven correct, though.

Julian Flood
August 25, 2011 3:32 pm

Don Keiller says:
August 25, 2011 at 3:01 pm
quote
Love to see what would happen if some dimethylsulphide was added to the test chamber http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/dimethyl/overview.php
unquote
Yes! And then we can work out what happens if the level of DMS varies. And speculate about the effect of pollution/kriegesmarine warming on the phytoplankton which produce the DMS.
[rave, froth, told you so etc etc]
JF

August 25, 2011 3:35 pm

Dave Springer says:
August 25, 2011 at 12:46 pm (Edit)
steven mosher says:
August 25, 2011 at 9:56 am
“here is the point. many times you will see people make the spurious argument that C02 can have no effect because, merely because it is a trace gas.
Interesting, an inverse ad populum logical fallacy. Good one Mosher. I’d nominate it for its own unique entry in logical fallacies.
#####
Actually it’s not a logical fallacy since I’m not making an argument. What I am doing is rather simple. You know that on occasion the argument is made “C02 can have no effect because it is trace gas”. I am pointing out that if people buy that argument ( which is wrong) then they have a little problem of consistency when it comes to the point being made here about ammonia.
That is not an argument. It’s irony.

August 25, 2011 3:54 pm

Steven Mosher says:
August 25, 2011 at 3:35 pm
“You know that on occasion the argument is made “C02 can have no effect because it is trace gas”. I am pointing out that if people buy that argument ( which is wrong” in my opinion) “then they have a little problem of consistency when it comes to the point being made here about ammonia.”
Fixed that for you!

Robert of Ottawa
August 25, 2011 4:01 pm

At comment number 414+ I doubt this will read. But the internet is eternal.
First, is this the most commented article ever on WUWT.
Second, clouds have always been the weakest link in climatological knowledge … Even the IPCC acknowledges this. A small variation in albedo obviously produces a large change in the Incoming short wavelength radiation.
This experiment shows how cosmic rays can create seeding sites for clouds. Regard Leif’s caution seriously; there are still further causal steps to demonstrate, although I think Pilke has addressed some of these. But, see the frothing of the Warmistas!

August 25, 2011 4:09 pm

Robert of Ottawa,
Hey, I read your comment.☺
IIRC, there have been articles with over 1,400 comments [or maybe it was 1,600+, can’t remember for sure]. There was lots of discussion following the Climategate email and Harry_read_me dump. Willis E’s articles sometimes draw over 500.
[The reason some articles get under a hundred comments is because Anthony posts 4 – 10 new articles a day. Readers gravitate to the ones they find most interesting.]

Richard Spacek
August 25, 2011 4:34 pm

Richard Black of the BBC backed the wrong horse (Terry Sloan) against Svensmark back in 2008; I wonder if he feels chagrined?
BBC article
He’s actually reasonably balanced (compared to today, at least), but he ends on a strong Sloan note.

R. Gates
August 25, 2011 4:44 pm

Jeremy says:
August 25, 2011 at 2:05 pm
R. Gates says:
August 25, 2011 at 1:07 pm
This is an excellent question, and has been answered far more eloquently than I could here:
FTL:
In both of these cases, the “effect” reinforces the “cause”, which will increase the “effect”, which will reinforce the “cause”… So won’t this spin out of control? The answer is, No, it will not, because each subsequent stage of reinforcement & increase will be weaker and weaker. The feedback cycles will go on and on, but there will be a diminishing of returns, so that after just a few cycles, it won’t matter anymore.
1) This concedes CAGW cannot happen.
_____
As I am not a C-AGW ist, in the extreme sense, just think AGW is occurring, but I suppose it depends on what you define to be “catastrophic”. There is a big range of temperature increases on the way to some equilibrium point as CO2 continues to increase. These temperature increases could prove most troublesome for the 7 billion humans now on earth who have come to appreciate the rather stable temperatures of the Holocene, and in fact, thanks to those rather mild Holocene temperatures, food grains like wheat and corn could be cultivated. I think the most likely first stopping off point for temperatures will take us to a climate similar to the mid-Pliocene, possibly making it difficult for 7 billion humans. Will it be “catastrophic”? That probably depends more on how humans react. If water, land, and food scarcity lead to more conflict, then that could be catastrophic in and of itself. But somewhere, eventually, the global temperatures will reach a equilibrium point, once CO2 and all associated other feedbacks, such as methane release, melting permafrost etc. have run their due course.

R. Gates
August 25, 2011 4:52 pm

PhilJourdan says:
August 25, 2011 at 1:29 pm
R.Gates – #1 – Where else to get information than the cathedral of the religion – Skeptical Science.
#2 – While they attempt to answer the question, they beg more questions, and soon an intelligent readers realizes they are clueless. So positive feedback diminishes. At what rate and when? No answer. Could it be immediately? no answer. Could it be that the positive feedback does not get started due to dampening in the first place? no answer.
I am sure your faith is strong. But your faith is not my science.
______
Well then Phil, you’ll need to explain the science behind how a little forcing (i.e. Milankovitch cycles) lead to a disproportionate amount of warming in interglacials. While explaining this, explain the increase in CO2 that follows the glacial-interglacial cycle. CO2 did not cause the interglacial, but it made it possible. Just like the switch on your thermostat, is the “first cause”, or initiator, it is the thermostat that controls the warming. Milankovtich is the switch, CO2 is the thermostat. But again, find another explanation that follows all the data so nicely in the ice cores, and I love to hear it.

August 25, 2011 5:03 pm

Richard Telford,
“Since there is no trend in cosmic radiation over the last 50 years, it is simply not possible for changes in cosmic radiation to have caused the trend in global temperatures. ”
Expanding on your excellent point about this interesting science, given that the variability of cosmic ray related forcing is an independent variable from atmospheric GHG forcing, perhaps a better way to phrase your assertion is…
“it is simply not possible for changes in cosmic radiation to have caused *a* trend in global temperatures.”

August 25, 2011 5:09 pm

M.A.Vukcevic says:
August 25, 2011 at 3:21 pm
Nearly 500 readers of this thread have looked at
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/NorthAtlanticOutlook.htm

And how many of those have come forward in praise?

Doug Badgero
August 25, 2011 5:12 pm

R. Gates,
You seem to be implicitly acknowledging that the feedback coefficient is not constant, or even linear. Oh well, at least we all get to keep on arguing about what we think we “know” if we ignore this reality.
By the way, I agree, I think there are positive feedbacks at work when exiting an ice age……and likely entering them also.

August 25, 2011 5:18 pm

From Professor Carter’s Climate: The Counter Consensus, p50. “Neff et al (2001) have provided incontrovertible evidence from palaeoclimate records for a link between varying cosmic radiation and climate. Using samples from a speleothem from a cave in Oman , Middle East, these authors showed that a close correlation exists between radiocarbon production rates (driven by incoming cosmic radiation, which is solar modulated) and rainfall (as reflected in the geochemical signature of oxygen isotopes).” See figure 1 in the link below.
http://www.sciencebits.com/CosmicRaysClimate

August 25, 2011 5:19 pm

Dave Springer says:
August 25, 2011 at 12:23 pm
“All commenters should heed this caveat, instead of being victims of confirmation bias.”
Taken alone, sure. The thing is we have to take into consideration the correlation between sunspot activity and climate change going back 400 years as well as Spencer’s findings in the CERES data from 2000 onwards and the fact that 1950-2000 is called “The Modern Maximum” in regard to sunspot counts – consistently higher during that time any time in the 400 year record of sunspot counting.

There is no such documented correlation. We have solar activity and climate proxies going back thousands of years and there is no correlation. See slide 20 of http://www.leif.org/research/Does%20The%20Sun%20Vary%20Enough.pdf
And there very likely was no Grand Modern Maximum. Activity in the 18th and 19th centuries have been just as high. Probably higher in the 18th. See slide 45 of http://www.leif.org/research/History%20and%20Calibration%20of%20Sunspot%20Numbers.pdf
Furthermore, the solar modulation of cosmic rays is much smaller than that stemming from the Earth’s magnetic field, see slide 18 of http://www.leif.org/research/Does%20The%20Sun%20Vary%20Enough.pdf
Finally, the Sun is now and has been for the last decade down to the same level of activity as around 1900, but temperatures are not.

1 15 16 17 18 19 31