Much like “flying cars”, atomic powered cars were a campy futuristic meme of the 50’s, for example, there was the Ford Nucleon concept:
From Wikipedia: The Ford Nucleon was a scale model concept car developed by Ford Motor Company in 1958 as a design on how a nuclear-powered car might look. The design did not include an internal-combustion engine, rather, the vehicle was to be powered by a small nuclear reactor in the rear of the vehicle, based on the assumption that this would one day be possible based on shrinking sizes. The car was to use a steam engine powered by uranium fission.
It looks a little bit like the Bat mobile from the rear:
Now it looks like we might actually see a real one, using Thorium rather than Uranium, which not only is safer to manage, you don’t have to worry about some terrorist car-jacking your ride for fissile materials.
Here’s the new concept. Thorium could be used in conjunction with a laser and mini turbines to easily produce enough electricity to power a vehicle. When thorium is heated, it generates further heat surges, allowing it to be coupled with mini turbines to produce steam that can then be used to generate electricity. It is said that 1 gram of thorium produces the equivalent energy of 7,500 gallons of gasoline.
Here’s the headline from Ward’s Auto:
U.S. Researcher Preparing Prototype Cars Powered by Heavy-Metal Thorium
By Keith Nuthall
A U.S. company says it is getting closer to putting prototype electric cars on the road that will be powered by the heavy-metal thorium.
Thorium is a naturally occurring, slightly radioactive rare-earth element discovered in 1828 by the Swedish chemist Jons Jakob Berzelius, who named it after Thor, the Norse god of thunder. It is found in small amounts in most rocks and soils, where it is about three times more abundant than uranium.
…
The key to the system developed by inventor Charles Stevens, CEO and chairman of Connecticut-based Laser Power Systems, is that when silvery metal thorium is heated by an external source, it becomes so dense its molecules give off considerable heat.
Small blocks of thorium generate heat surges that are configured as a thorium-based laser, Stevens tells Ward’s. These create steam from water within mini-turbines, generating electricity to drive a car.
A 250 MW (I think this is a typo, they probably mean KW – Anthony) unit weighing about 500 lbs. (227 kg) would be small and light enough to drop under the hood of a car, he says.
Jim Hedrick, a specialist on industrial minerals – and until last year the U.S. Geological Survey’s senior advisor on rare earths – tells Ward’s the idea is “both plausible and sensible.”
…
Stevens says his company should be able to place a prototype on the road within two years. The firm has 40 employees and operates out of an in-house research workshop.
 View Chart Larger |
Hedrick, the industrial minerals expert, says 7,500 gallons is “way more gasoline than an average person uses in a year. Switching to thorium-driven cars would make the U.S. energy self-sufficient, and carbon emissions would plummet.
“It would eliminate the major need for oil,” he says. “The main (remaining) demand would be for asphalt for roadways, natural gas, plastics and lubricants.”
Full story here.
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I want one. 8 grams of Thorium in a V shaped reactor block. The new atomic V-8. The only downside is that I won’t be able to overhaul the engine myself as I would imagine the Thorium would be in a sealed power module. I might add, that this endeavor sounds a little bit like a Tucker, long on promise, short on delivery.
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ADDENDUM:
I published this story late Friday night at 1AM and then went on a trip the next day, I was surprised to learn that people missed my cues and thought I took the Ward’s article seriously. I thought the headline and first sentence set the tone with “flying cars” and “campy”.
Few seemed to understand the Tucker comment at the end either:
“I might add, that this endeavor sounds a little bit like a Tucker, long on promise, short on delivery.”
The Tucker was a car sold on futuristic promises in the mind of a man that hadn’t actually designed or built the car. Preston Tucker floated the concept in Science Illustrated magazine in December 1946 followed by a full page advertisement in March 1947 in many national newspapers claiming “How 15 years of testing produced the car of the year”. He was immediately overwhelmed with pre-orders for a car that didn’t even exist on paper. Hence my comment: “I want one”.
Tucker then got a bunch of investors together to try to fill orders, and got some government help with loan of a WWII supply factory that had been idled after the war. The factory eventually produced 50 cars, but it was too late, as many had lost confidence and he was embroiled in an SEC investigation and court trial over investor funds.
The cars finally produced didn’t have many of the futuristic features that had been promised early on. Some were there, and Tucker was credited with inspiring improved auto safety as a result.
I thought my reference to a Tucker automobile was about as strong a label as anyone could make as the promises of this thorium car being hyped. The parallel seemed obvious.
I guess next time I’ll have to be more explicit. with a /sarc tag – Anthony
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I suspect that the weight of the lead, steel, and concrete required to adequately contain the radioactivity from Thorium fission would make the car just a bit too….er…. heavy. Zero – to 60 speeds would be measured in minutes, not seconds. Turning a corner will abrade the tires and create short tire life and much black soot from tire material. And stopping that colossus will take brakes the size of the Empire State Building. The brake dust produced will coat the roadways, block the adjacent homes’ air conditioners, and cause serious lung/breathing problems. Stopping the monstrosity in a timely manner, to avoid a collision will likely be difficult if not impossible.
Also, water-steam-turbine-generator-electric motor is a VERY heavy combination. It also has serious drawbacks when mounted on a moving platform. Going up a hill, down a hill, turning a corner, creates some problems (havoc?) with such a system. The water tends to slosh around, to put it mildly. Where water appears in pulses, and steam flow is therefore erratic, a steam turbine just falls apart rapidly.
Water leaks from such a system. Steam does, too. Therefore, the car is required to periodically fill up with water. And, not just the tap water from any old faucet. This water must be purified to the n-th degree — just like in a steam power plant and a nuclear power plant This is incredibly expensive water. Just ask any power plant operator what his water costs are.
Another issue: running this thing in the winter. Water freezes. That must be considered and a proper design prepared and built into the system so that every part that is in contact with water is heated and insulated. Steam locomotives have had this problem for decades, if not centuries.
And finally, what happens to one of these nuclear-radiating-colossus behemoths when it does have a wreck? Does the radioactive substance remain intact, sealed, and not spewing deadly radiation over everyone for miles around? Even if the fissile material is contained, what about the water and other fluids that are also radioactive, after they get splashed around after a wreck?
How many three-eyed children must the world endure before this nuclear madness stops?
Gotta love those nuclear advocates. Nuclear at any cost – who gives a damn about health, or radiation, or any other adverse consequences. Not to mention the engineering hurdles.
Perhaps of interest: Laser Power Systems – Charles Stevens:
http://www.frantechusa.com/img/ECONOMIC_DEVELOPMENT2009.ppt
One will need MS PowerPoint or MC PPT viewer (or equiv) to open the above.
From slide #28:
THE REPLACMENT TECHNOLOGY FOR THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE
– The laser turbine power system is “ZERO EMISSIONS” totally green.
– It is a closed loop ranken cycle steam turbine driving a High Speed Induction Generator developed for the U.S. Air Force WPAFB, this is a 200 kW, 62,000 RPM generator using induction technology to provide a compact, efficient generator system for stable and safe operation .The controller design is based on field orientation for fast response to transient load changes. The DSP-based control system is flexible and optimizes the generator performance.
– The turbine/generator is a new Hybrid design. The high-speed turbine/generator set on a signal shaft (No gears) with oil free “GAS FOIL BEARINGS”. Foil bearings are self-generating, compliant hydrodynamics bearings. The compliant foils conform to the shape of the mating rotating shaft. During operation the shaft is supported on a thin film of self generated cushion of air (or gas). These bearings have demonstrated high load carrying capacity and good stability characteristics. A pair of foil journal bearings provides radial support and a pair of foil thrust bearings provides axial support.
– The electric “drive motors” will be provided by KLD Energy Technologies high-performance electric motor systems. The company’s cornerstone technology is a high-frequency, low RPM, transmission less motor system that increases the speed and efficiency of electric vehicles are of a new high torque design that is a Direct Drive “No Gears”. High Torque Density Traction Motor.
.
But, but, they have such a beautiful web site. All the pages at http://laserturbinepower.com/ allow you, actually they require you, to scroll both horizontally and vertically so you can read the entire page, each containing a wide variety of totally irrelevant material. Even the page titled “Investments” talks about other companies that are presumably gainfully involved in thorium, not about his company.
His page at http://www.linkedin.com/in/laserturbinepower admits to his previous folly (ripoff?) at Helyxzion. See http://help-cure-disease-now.blogspot.com/
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, rest assured it’s a quack.
@roger Sowell. Read up on the Luddites.
I feel like Mulder, “I want to believe.”
So many misconceptions, where do I start?
First people seem to think that sub critical means no fission is occurring. There are three states of critical:
Super-critical: more neutrons are being produced from fission, than the previous generation. In practice this means reactor power will be increasing (exponentially).
Critical: neutrons being produce equal the neutrons required for fissioning, at the present rate. In practice this means reactor power is holding at current rate, hence power is steady.
Sub-critical: neutron production has decreased below the current fission rate and power will decrease until it becomes critical again.
Note criticality has nothing to do with total power output, but describes the direction of the neutron rate (hence – fission rate – hence – power rate).
OR a 1kw room heater which outputs for 25000 hrs.
Why does everyone assume a instantaneous power output? Even though, the time unit was dropped from the rating, why does everyone jump to the more ridiculous interpretation of instantaneous power??
Come on people, we are better than this!
Does this idea have merit. I don’t have a #%$* clue, as there is not enough technically correct information, to form a working model, in my imagination. GK
I see as late as Jan 13, 1958 there was still serious talk of a nuclear powered plane as a funded government project…
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,862821,00.html
This sounds a lot like the halfnium battery discussed a few years back. The only way the above description makes any sense would be if the metal thorium described is in a state that stores energy when released by heating, that heating being the catalytic boost necessary to allow the phase change to occur. Then the thorium would have to be remade, taking power from some other source. In other words, it would be a type of battery. The description is that of a katabatic-like heat release from a phase change, not fission power.
Major fail for everybody who
a.) took this seriously
or
b.) thought Anthony took this seriously.
This is what is known as a detector of the anally retentive.
Maybe there should be a poll to see if readers think that Low Energy Nuclear Reaction lies should be repeated here.
I feel like it is at best a distraction and at worst is a way for alarmists to mock this site.
If simply heating Thorium produced energy it would already be in widespread use in large scale power generation. Also, the first thing it would heat would be itself, producing more heat [loop].
Everything I have read about thorium suggests it needs a source of neutrons to produce energy. Consequently I vote with the ‘this is garbage’ element.
PS. Some people suggested that publishing an article like this on WUWT implies approval – this is not the case – there are many examples of provocative articles included for discussion/comment.
The problem is not generating heat energy from radioactivity.
The problem is dealing with a >steam car< (even just in a generator loop).
The Stanley Steamers died out in the early 20th for a reason and both Howard Hughes and Bill Lear and others found out that dealing with steam is finicky, dangerous and a PITA.
(My Dad was an engineer and steam buff and we spent many years going to steam equipment shows in the Midwest)
Anyone who doubts this is seriously disturbed. Thorium is derived (inexpensively and easily) from Unobtanium (a previously unknown element made famous by the movie Avatar). Once derived, the Thorium simultaneously powers the laser that generates the power. This “closed circuit” technology is as old as Benjamin Franklin and can be easily adapted for modern applications. All you nattering nabobs of negativism should go back to school and learn the new math. You are the same people who doubt global warming, Keynesian economic models, and Sham Wow.
Finally, what’s with the MW/KW concerns? A Billion, a Trillion . . . tomato . . . tomahhhhto? Try to keep up with modern science.
Here is what appears to be a rather informed talk on Thorium based reactors:
Energy From Thorium: A Nuclear Waste Burning Liquid Salt Thorium Reactor
Kirk Sorensen’s Tech Talk, delivered at Google on July 20, 2009.
385 likes, 6 dislikes 51,455 views (time 1:22:08)
“Successfully developing a liquid-fluoride thorium reactor (LFTR) would essentially solve our planets energy problems for thousands of years, because it would allow us to fully utilize the energy in natural thorium, which makes up 0.0012% of the Earths crust. Most of the research and development work for this technology was done by Oak Ridge National Labs back in the 50s and 60s. They were working to a different set of overall objectives, nevertheless, there are many lessons to be gleaned from their work that can help us to avoid pitfalls and develop LFTR into a high-performance, high-reliability power supply.”
I remain puzzled by ‘molecules’ of Thorium. Thorium is a metal, right? Metals are formed of a lattice of metal positive ions with free flowing electron ‘clouds’ throughout the lattice – hence the electrical (and thermal) conductivity of metals in general.
Re steam power – assuming there’s more to this then I assume they will use turbines not pistons to generate the electricity with the steam condensed back to water in a closed system – not unlike that used in a nuclear submarine.
Jason Joice M.D. said on August 8, 2011 at 8:02 pm at the “Climate and Early Asian Immigrants” post:
Now Jason Joice M.D. says on August 13, 2011 at 5:16 am:
Doesn’t seem like “letting it go” to me. I will note it took this post along with Mr Eschenbach’s post to change your opinion about this blog, which Willis’ post alone didn’t do. Thus this must be an exceptionally crappy post that’s really pulling down the site average.
☺
At least George Barris’ creation (Batmobile) was real! The Thormobile, not so much! One can almost hear the “ZIF!” “POW” “BAM” while digesting the article. LOL Anthony!
PS — Anyone still remembering George Barris is WAY over the hill!!
I’m calling it complete B.S. and 100% SCAM!
If anyone remotely believes this is feasible then they might like to invest in a product that I’m developing. With just a few million dollars of development capital I should soon be able to market my weightless and invisible super fuel additive tablet that I promise will increase your fuel mileage up to 100 million times. Visit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, http://WWW.I‘m_A_Sucker.com for additional info!
As Kenny Rogers says,, “KNOW WHEN TO HOLD THEM, KNOW WHEN TO FOLD ‘EM”
Really!?
Maybe we all just need to ‘up’ our games as far as our ‘lab work’ (preventing or accounting for contamination; after all, if experiments indicate why do others/you filibuster)?
Or does the LENR fairy just arbitrarily contaminate controlled experiments to the ‘positive’?
I ask this seriously …
.
“I’ve never known heat to increase density.”
There are substances with a negative thermal expansion coefficient. Water below 3.9°C is one.
I also appreciate that “opposing” viewpoints are being tolerated here and discussed – a big difference from Real Climate etc.
A few comments of mine why this thorium car report is untrustworthy. My explanation is not terribly novel but many things are summarized here, anyway:
http://motls.blogspot.com/2011/08/thorium-nuclear-power-plant-in-your-car.html
Anthony, thanks for the laugh. But shouldn’t this have been a Friday Funny?
How about doing time travel next?
Fantasy science nothing more, nothing less.
Surely this is a post put up by an agent provocateur in the warmist camp to discredit the site.