Skeptic Strategy for Talking About Global Warming

Guest Post by Ira Glickstein

What should a responsible Skeptic say to an astute audience? When recently invited by the “Technology, Engineering, and Science Plus” group in my community to give a talk and answer questions, I knew I would have an attentive room of tech-savvy professionals. However, they might not be fully tuned in to the details of the Global Warming controversy. Furthermore, they were likely to have opinions closer to the supposed “mainsteam science” orientation than mine.

In this posting, I’ve summarized the main points I think are most likely to align people who are both intelligent and reasonable to the Skeptic side. My Powerpoint (with talking points for each chart in the Notes section under each slide) is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish.

Highlight scene from former VP Al Gore's Nobel and Oscar-winning movie, An Inconvenient Truth. Dramatic correlation between temperature and CO2 over past 600,000 years. Implication that global mean temperature rise will parallel CO2 increases. But, which way does the causation go? {Annotations by ira@techie.com, TVPClub.blogspot.com}

A. Basic Climate Science – Water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), and other “greenhouse” gases cause the Earth Surface to be warmer than it would be if the Atmosphere was just nitrogen.

  1. Light energy from the Sun warms the Earth System, which consists of our Atmosphere and the Surface. Based on satellite measurements, the Sun provides 1366 Watts per square meter (W/m^2) at the Top of the Atmosphere. After accounting for the Earth’s spherical shape and albedo (reflectiveness), the absorbed energy averages out to about 240 W/m^2 for each square meter.
  2. To maintain a relatively constant mean temperature, Output Energy must equal Input Energy, so the Earth System must emit about 240 W/m^2 out to Space, which it does.
  3. We call the Input Energy “light” because we can see (much of) it. We call the Output Energy “heat” because we can feel it. However, whether it is “short wave” energy from the very hot Sun, or “long wave” from the more moderate Earth System, we know that energy is fungible. 240 W/m^2 of one type is equal, power-wise, to 240 W/m^2 of the other. A Watt is a Watt, no matter what :^)
  4. But, there is an “issue” – if we consider the Earth System as a “black body”, according to the laws of physics, for the Earth System to emit 240 W/m^2, it would have to be at a temperature of only 255 Kelvin, where Kelvins are degrees Celsius above absolute zero. (The Earth System is not exactly a black body, but it is close enough for our purposes here.)
  5. You may remember that anything above absolute zero emits radiant energy and that 0.0 Kelvin corresponds to -273ºC or -460ºF. The “issue” is that the Earth Surface has a mean temperature closer to 288 Kelvin, corresponding to about +15ºC or +59ºF. In other words, the Surface is about 33ºC or 58ºF warmer than the “black body” formula would indicate. How to explain this added warmth?
  6. The generally accepted explanation is the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect”. This is true science, but the name is somewhat misleading because a glass greenhouse works mostly by restricting convection while the Atmospheric effect works mostly by restricting radiation. I use “scare quotes” around “greenhouse” to acknowledge this semantic issue.
  7. The Atmosphere passes most of the “short wave” energy from the Sun and absorbs most of the “long wave” energy from the Surface. The absorbed energy warms the Atmosphere and is re-emitted in all directions at a variety of “long wave” wavelengths. A portion of radiation from the Atmosphere passes out the Top of the Atmosphere to Space. A portion is emitted in the downward direction and is absorbed by the Surface. This absorbed radiant energy accounts for most of the extra 33ºC or 58ºF.
  8. A variety of gases in the Atmosphere, primarily water vapor (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2), absorb and re-emit “long wave” radiation. These are called “greenhouse gases”.

B. Divergent Views – There is a valid, science-based argument between people I refer to as Warmists, Lukewarmers, and Skeptics. I distinguish their reasoned views from the far out, unscientific rantings of people I refer to as Alarmists and their equal and opposite reaction opponents, who I call Disbelievers.

  1. VP Al Gore was not the first Alarmist, but his public lectures and his Nobel and Oscar-winning movie, An “Inconvenient” Truth, probably did more than anything else to bring Global Warming Alarmism to the fore in the consciousness of the major media and the general population.
  2. The scene depicted above was the highlight of his presentation.
  3. Gore displays the Ice Core record of the past 600,000 years for CO2 (red) and Temperature (blue). He points out the undoubted correlation between the two parameters. When one goes up so does the other. When one goes down, the other does as well. He points out that the then current CO2 level is considerably higher than that of the past 600,000 years, and he projects the future levels of CO2 assuming it continues to rise at current rates. So far, this is all true.
  4. Dramatically ascending high above the stage on his motorized platform, he implies that mean temperatures will rise in proportion to the CO2. (My graphic is annotated in dashed blue to show the implied warming.) If that happens, he warns, more and more of the polar ice will melt, causing the seas to rise and flooding coastal areas. The ground under the polar ice will be exposed, further reducing the albedo of the Surface and causing further warming. We will reach a tipping point with runaway Global Warming.
  5. The villain of Gore’s story is the human race and our habit of burning ever-increasing quantities of fossil fuels (coal, oil, natural gas) that release unprecedented amounts of CO2. This scene, more than any other event, is most likely responsible for the birth of what has come to be known as Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming, CAGW. In other words, catastrophe due to human-caused Global Warming. It has become the mantra of the Alarmists and an excuse for governments to regulate all fossil fuels as well as land use that affects albedo. Since all industry and agriculture and civilized life itself depends upon fossil fuels and land use, the Alarmists give suitably oriented politicos an excuse to regulate and tax and restrict virtually everything. We outdoors types will need an indulgence from the government every time we pass wind. And, we can forget about lighting a campfire :^).
  6. But, as the annotations in my graphic above show, there is a fundamental “Inconvenient” truth about the ice core data. It has absolutely nothing to say about the current Global Warming controversy! Gore was misleading the media and the public when he implied that rising CO2 levels would cause corresponding increases in mean temperatures. In particular, as any scientist who took a close look at the ice core data would see, and as I show in the inset graph in the upper left corner, Temperature always rises eight-hundred or more years before CO2 increases. The same is true in the other direction. The Temperature falls eight-hundred or more years prior to CO2 decreases. What this shows, if anything, is that TEMPERATURE CAUSES CO2, or, that something else causes both to change, with CO2 lagging by hundreds of years. Gore got the direction of causation backwards.
  7. When the falsehood of this implied causation was pointed out, Gore’s apologists claimed that it was a minor matter and, after all, despite the 800-year lag, both Temperature and CO2 were up together and down together for about 5/6ths of the record. Besides, they said, we are currently burning historically unprecedented amounts of fossil fuel, and, we know that CO2 is a “greenhouse gas”, and so on and on. But, the truth is still that the ice core record is of a time when there were no humans to burn fossil fuels, so why did Gore bring it up since it has no relationship to our current situation? Raw, unfettered Alarmism has had its effect on the media, the political class, and we common citizens who have to pay the costs of the phony CAGW panic.
  8. In politics, as in physics, every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. In the Case of CAGW, that opposite (and equally false) reaction is what I call Disbeliever AGW or DAGW. These are people who use pseudo-scientific arguments in their claim that humans have had absolutely no hand in the mean temperature rise of the past century, or that there has been no temperature rise, or that the basic science of the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect” is untrue, and so on. I do not like to be to critical of the DAGW crowd because, when it comes to general political decisions, they are more likely than not to agree with me than my opponents, but my academic integrity and ethical duty as a licensed professional engineer require me to state what I see as the error of their arguments. (As I have in my WUWT Visualizing series [1, 2, 3, 4, 5])
  9. Having dismissed what I regard as the unscientific Alarmists and Disbelievers, that leaves us with three groups that, for the most part, use rational science-base arguments for their diverse views. Of course, every member of each group has somewhat different views, and any attempt to divide them into three distinct types is bound to cross some lines. So, please consider my grouping as approximate.
  10. Carbon sensitivity, which is the estimate of how much mean temperatures will increase if CO2 doubles from historical or current levels, is one way to determine which of the the three groups a person belongs to. The Warmists tend to accept the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) estimate of 2.0ºC to 4.5ºC. The Skeptics tend to set carbon sensitivity much lower, perhaps 0.2ºC to 1ºC. The third group, which I call Lukewarmers, would suggest 1ºC to 3ºC.
  11. How much of the rise in CO2 is attributable to human use of fossil fuels is also estimated differently. Warmists would blame humans for nearly all of it, while Skeptics would say less than half. Similarly, the blame for the supposed 0.8ºC rise in mean temperatures since 1880 is mostly attributed to human activities, while Skeptics say that data bias “adjustments” by the official climate record keepers is responsible for about a third of the supposed warming, and that natural cycles, over which humans have no control, are responsible for about half of it, leaving only 0.1ºC (or maybe up to 0.2ºC) to human responsibility. Lukewarmers are somewhere in-between.
  12. Skeptics have well-justified suspicions that the official climate data keepers were “cooking the books” to lend whatever support they could to the highest estimates of carbon sensitivity. Around the year 2000, US Mean Temperature data was “adjusted” down by 0.1 to 0.2ºC for years prior to the 1970’s, and upwards by 0.2 to 0.3ºC for years after the 1970’s, increasing supposed warming by 0.3 to 0.5ºC.
  13. The surfacestations.org project published photos of official temperature measurement stations that were very near artificial sources of heat, with most being in the lowest two of the five quality levels established by the government. The poor quality stations were compared to nearby well-located stations. There were large temperature deltas that could only be accounted for if the the stations now poorly-located were originally well-located, but had been influenced by nearby development, such as paved parking lots, buildings, and air conditioning vents.
  14. According to a figure in the 1990 IPCC report, 1100 to 1300 AD saw temperatures in the northern hemisphere that were higher than current levels. However, the IPCC 2001 report included the infamous so-called “hockey stick” chart that managed to make the Medieval Warm Period of about 1000 years ago disappear! (My Powerpoint set includes charts with evidence of each of the aforementioned issues.)
  15. These suspicions were not fully confirmed until 2009 when someone (probably an inside whistle-blower) released emails and computer code from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) in the UK, and, later that year, a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request yielded a stash from the US NASA-GISS (Goddard Institute for Space Studies).

C. Climategate – UK Climatic Research Unit (CRU) emails and the US NASA GISS FOIA emails. What they tell us about the published Global Warming data.

IPCC 1990 recognized Medieval Warm Period (MWP) temperatures were above current levels. IPCC 2001 used the "Hockey Stick" chart that makes MWP disappear.
  1. I refer to the CRU as the Climategate Research Unit or, more simply, the Fudge Factory because the words “fudge factor” appear in their computer code. Phil Jones, PhD, is the CRU Director. He confirmed suspicions about the infamous “Hockey Stick” graph when, in an email, he called it “Mike’s Nature trick” (because a version of that graph appeared in a paper by Dr. Michael Mann in the prestigious journal Nature ). He also wrote that the “trick” was designed to “hide the decline” in tree ring proxy data. The tree-ring expert associated with CRU, Keith Brifa, PhD, admits, in one of the emails that “the recent warmth was probably matched about 1,000 years ago”. (My Powerpoint set includes slides with direct quotes from the Climategate materials.)
2007 email from Sato to Hansen details seven analyses of 1934 vs 1998. 1934 starts off with a 0.5ºC lead and ends up in a dead heat.
  1. Moving on to the FOIA emails from GISS, it is interesting to note that their HQ, in New York City, happens to be in the same building as the famous restaurant where Jerry Seinfeld dined with George, Kramer, and Elaine. (It was never revealed what Kramer did for a living – perhaps he was the chief analyst at GISS :^)
  2. The most revealing email from GISS is reproduced above. It was from Makiko Sato, PhD to her Boss, GISS-Director James Hansen, PhD, detailing the seven different analyses and comparisons of US mean temperatures for 1934 and 1998. The later year was the hottest in the 1990’s, so it was, let us say “inconvenient” that 1934, according to data published by GISS in 1999, was over 0.5ºC warmer. If Global Warming was almost entirely due to recent human activities, and was accelerating, how could the 1930 have been warmer?
  3. Just as the Hockey Stick made the Medieval Warm Period disappear, GISS tried mightily to make 1934 cooler than 1998, but only succeeded in reducing the 0.5ºC lead into a dead heat. Notice that the 0.5ºC “adjustment” is more than half the supposed total warming since 1880.
  4. I would like to trust the work of taxpayer-supported science, but, it seems, we must rely on President Reagan’s advice regarding the old Soviet Union, “Trust, but verify!”

D. What We Can and Should Do – Energy policy (cap and trade scam vs carbon tax). Efficiency, conservation, “green“, and renewable sources.

  1. I am quite sure that Global Warming is REAL (i.e. the mean temperature of the Surface has increased by 0.5 to 0.6ºC since 1880) but, most of that increase is due to Natural Cycles over which we humans have no control.
  2. However, the warming is PARTLY Due to Rising CO2 Levels and human actions are PART of the Cause.
  3. There is not and never has been any real danger of catastrophe or even of serious net detriment to human life due to increased CO2 levels. Indeed, modest increases in these parameters are most likely a net benefit.
  4. However, we Skeptics have to be realistic in the current political climate. Like it or not (and I do not like it) the official climate “Team” (i.e., the “Hockey Team” :^) has convinced the political and media establishment, and much of the population that something has to be done. We cannot fight something with nothing, so we need something more than a passive policy of do nothing because nothing is necessary.
  5. Therefore, I favor reduction of the carbon footprint by efficiency, conservation, recycling, and so on, plus the introduction, if and when economically practical of so-called “Green” energy, including Nuclear, Water, Wind, Biomass and, particularly, “Clean” Coal.
  6. If nothing else, these will do minimum harm and, if successful, will reduce US dependence upon foreign oil. We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.
  7. As for the Cap and Trade scam, it is a Politician’s Delight that rewards powerful Interests, wrecks the economy, and will NOT significantly reduce carbon emissions. It seems to me that some countries and US states that have adopted Cap and Trade have realized their folly and are backing away from it.
  8. You may be surprised that I favor some version of a straight Carbon Tax, collected at the mine, well, and port, with the proceeds returned on an equal basis to citizens and legal residents. Yes, James Hansen and (pardon the expression Ralph Nader) also favor it, but, so do conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer, the Wall Street Journal, and others on the right. My support for this tax is based on what I wrote above, “We cannot fight something with nothing” and “We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.”

I’m interested in your critique and comments. (My Powerpoint presentation is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish..)

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June 2, 2011 3:29 pm

A G Foster says on June 2, 2011 at 10:58 am
Re. _Jim says on June 1, 2011 at 2:37 pm:
“Reiterating, it is the surface (literally: things on the surface like grass, tree leaves, roofs, sand etc), which cool at night (via IR radiation directly into space) and being in contact with the air then cools the air. ”
But only the bottom few feet of course,

Let’s call that “The Boundary Layer”, as the mets define it.
Formal definition
(as initially addressed to Richard M above)
:
“Atmospheric Boundary Layer Structure”

Stull defines the atmospheric boundary layer as “the part of the troposphere that is directly influenced by the presence of the earths surface, and responds to surface forcings with a time scale of about an hour or less.’”

For frost to occur, I’ll give you “the bottom few feet”, since that would be the boundary layer for that period/point in time.
As far as: “Cold air inversions are the exception–as all know, the air gets colder with altitude. ” – are we exploring new meteorological grounds? This would seem to be the normal state of things –

Per – http://daphne.palomar.edu/calenvironment/smog.htm
In the normal situation, the temperature decreases as you go up in altitude in the troposphere.
The rate of decrease varies, but an accepted average value is 6.5 degrees Celsius per 1000 meters (this is called the normal lapse rate).

(Bolding mine)
Did you have something else in mind?
.

wayne
June 2, 2011 4:29 pm

Hans:
June 1, 2011 at 3:51 pm
Right on the physics spot as usual Hans, all of it. Always enjoy seeing others who really understand actual physics, it is rare. You are right, IPCC/AGW ‘science’ has made a mess of it, it is physically impossible.

Joel Shore
June 2, 2011 5:37 pm

Please see http://joannenova.com.au/2011/05/so-what-is-the-second-darn-law post 423

That is certainly impressive, Myrrh. You and Postma have certainly done what I thought to be impossible, which is to make Joanne Nova look like the most intelligent, reasonable person on the planet by comparison!

Spector
June 2, 2011 5:39 pm

RE: Ira Glickstein, PhD: (June 1, 2011 at 7:59 pm)
“’the fabric of spacetime curves but light goes straight’”
I believe that ‘straight’ indicates the shortest possible path (a straight line) through that space as in a great circle on the curved surface of a sphere. One has to imagine our three-dimensions as a curved fabric in a four or more dimensional universe.

Latitude
June 2, 2011 5:41 pm

Human ingenuity is amazing, particularly when we use it to save our own money at the individual and corporate levels! No one can predict what alternative fuel source is most practical (algae vs tidal power? who knows?) BUT, we can be sure that the future holds some great solutions. Let us unleash the power of self-interest and find out.
======================================================
Good grief Ira, you sound like some stary eyed 14 year old….
…with mixed metaphors all over the place.
You talk about “American Ingenuity”/”Free Market” and mix it up with a tax/subsidy, and then want to unleash the power of self-interest, while giving the government the power to pick and choose……..
All the time talking about another tax on something that the government already taxes so high that the government makes more money on gas than even the business that produce it.
And thinking this kumbaya huggy feely that the government is honest. That somehow the government will not create some huge bureaucracy around all this and keep all of the money —- and just hand some of it back to their chosen few…..
Oh sorry, that’s the way communism works……………..
You’re a mess………….

Joel Shore
June 2, 2011 7:04 pm

Ira Glickstein says:

_Jim, you are correct that the principal energy savings on my Prius hybrid is when the the brakes are applied gently and, instead of wasting the kinetic energy as friction heat, it is instead used to turn a generator and store electricity in the batteries. The other saving is automatically turning off the gasoline motor when coasting to a stop, going downhill, or when stopped.

Actually, I am not sure if the regenerative braking is really THE principle source of energy savings or not (my guess is not); it would be interesting to see a study on how much that actually contributes. Also, in addition to that and the turning off of the engine when coasting, there are other subtler contributions to saving energy in the Prius: The fact that electrical power is available to supplement the gasoline engine when necessary means that the engine can be sized smaller and can be optimized more for fuel efficiency and less for performance.

A G Foster
June 2, 2011 7:40 pm

Re. Jim at 3:29 and earlier: “Reiterating, it is the surface (literally: things on the surface like grass, tree leaves, roofs, sand etc), which cool at night (via IR radiation directly into space) and being in contact with the air then cools the air. ”
Please don’t be annoyed if I remark on the obvious (I claim no expertise here): We could as well say it in reverse: the air heats the leaves which radiate into space, i.e., with an efficiency which the air molecules of themselves cannot approach in degree or kind. This is something I didn’t believe, yet alone understand, just a few years ago, and I still find it amazing. The thermometer gun is an education in itself.
Regards, –AGF

Spector
June 2, 2011 8:35 pm

RE: _Jim: (June 2, 2011 at 9:41 am)
“Don’t forget sensible heat transfer to the poles (via airmasses);…”
Perhaps the most germane comment I have, relative to ‘Skeptic Strategy for Talking About Global Warming’ is the suggestion to include graphics that show the absorption in the atmosphere so that the relative unimportance of CO2 is more obvious. Of course, even these can be misleading as they are usually plotted on a wavelength scale and energy is proportional to frequency or wave-number bandwidth.
Again, I still maintain that there must be some mechanism for cooling the upper troposphere. As descending air warms adiabatically (without energy exchange) at 9.8 degrees C per km, in order to descend all the way down to the surface, it must, after all this warming, still be cooler (or more dense) than the air that it replaces. If water or ice can radiate from the surface, it would seem reasonable to assume that this can also happen in the more transmissive upper atmosphere. Note that small particles have more surface interaction area in proportion to their mass than large ones. I am focusing on water because the atmosphere becomes very dry and progressively warmer above the troposphere.
Food for thought…
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/02/spencer-earths-sans-greenhouse-effect-what-would-it-be-like/

Brett Keane
June 2, 2011 10:45 pm

Months of intensive review has failed to show me any net atmospheric warming effect. It should be amenable to experiment, and I’ll keep looking. Anyone got proof in either direction? Brett Keane (B Appl Sc)

RJ
June 3, 2011 12:11 am

“Joel Shore says:
June 2, 2011 at 5:37 pm
Please see http://joannenova.com.au/2011/05/so-what-is-the-second-darn-law post 423
That is certainly impressive, Myrrh. You and Postma have certainly done what I thought to be impossible, which is to make Joanne Nova look like the most intelligent, reasonable person on the planet by comparison!”
A childish comment Joel. But as you are losing the science battle why not?
Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/twenty-five-rules-of-disinformation.html
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach.

Brian H
June 3, 2011 3:31 am

Ira:
“Take an air-filled cylinder with an air-tight piston. Compress the air to half the volume. At first, it will be warmer than room temperature. Then, it will cool to room temperature and remain compressed. ”
A really bad and inappropriate comparison. The piston is in physical contact with surrounding air, which is a sink for the heat. A planetary atmosphere is in physical contact with nothing, literally (vacuum). So the heat of compression is not going anywhere that the local radiant budget doesn’t permit. Hence Venus at 500K or whatever, and Mars at half that, and Earth in-between.
None of the three affected more than negligibly by CO2 back-radiation. Now, in the past, or in the future.

Brian H
June 3, 2011 3:39 am

More exactly about the surface temps: Venus ~750K, Mars ~210K, Earth ~290K.

Matt G
June 3, 2011 5:30 am

Myrrh says:
June 2, 2011 at 1:19 am
I understand what you are saying, that light from the sun can’t warm the planet. Fair enough lets assume that this is correct, energy from the sun is warming the planet and light is just taking a ride with it. There is no thermal IR energy from ths sun because it is from a all shortwave source. This shortwave energy source (gamma even, natural very low background levels) has been hitting the Earth for billions of years. If only thermal IR warms the Earth you are contradicting yourself with what warms the sun. If Earth was only being warmed by thermal IR you could fly in some sort of rocket right up to the sun and not heat up, until it reaches it’s atmospshere. In fact there is no thermal IR here so why is this hot? (1,000,000c in the outer atmosphere of the sun, about 5000c at the surface)
You say blue visible light doesn’t warm (the energy from the same source does), but if I agree with this the energy from sun still warms water. This is evident by warming water in the sun compared with shade. Thermal IR comes from all surfaces that emit in this wavelength range, so why doesn’t this warm water in the shade compared to in the sun? If only thermal IR warmed the water why doesn’t it warm in the shade? No warming volume of water in the shade, during one day compared with a 20c rise in the sun. (actual observed experiment, initial water temperature 15c, maximum atmospheric temperature that day 21c.) For example the water in the sun warmed to a value much higher than the atmopsheric temperature during that day. I would say this is conclusive evidence that the sun’s energy warms water and thermal IR doesn’t. It doesn’t even matter if actual blue visible light doesn’t warm because it’s the energy that comes as part of the same package that does.

Joel Shore
June 3, 2011 6:42 am

RJ says:

A childish comment Joel. But as you are losing the science battle why not?

Myrrh has shown himself to be utterly impervious to scientific evidence or discussion. That opinion is shared not just by me but by others across the spectrum on AGW (look back in particular at what David M Hoffer wrote to him). How can you “win” a scientific battle against someone who does not argue science but just nonsense? We have spent a truly incredible amount of time very patiently explaining the science and answering all of his (and your) objections in Ira’s threads on visualizing the greenhouse effect. To blame us for your own failings is ridiculous…You are asking us to move what are immovable objects.
However, it is important for him to know that his little diatribes that he seems to believe are flashes of true brilliance are recognized by most people for what they actually are, which is nonsense.

Richard M
June 3, 2011 7:24 am

_Jim says:
June 2, 2011 at 9:52 am
Richard M says on June 2, 2011 at 6:23 am
(This is why certain courses have mandatory prerequisites …)
Have you read any of my posts to other posters in this thread?

Yes, and they don’t answer the questions I asked.
Why are you avoiding the questions? They were quite simple questions and despite your continued attempt to talk down to me, you appear to have no answer.

Matt G
June 3, 2011 7:35 am

Ira Glickstein, PhD says:
June 1, 2011 at 4:42 pm
Thats true, but the cooling in this example is down to conduction not because the increased pressure doesn’t cause a constant energy increase. Once the energy is lost by this it can’t remain the initial higher temperature in a sealed unit. Give it a constant energy source (real life) and it would remain higher than a cylinder at normal pressure. A glass, gas sealed cylinder with 100 percent CO2 warms with an initial energy source, but take this away it cools down to room temperature. While the energy source was on, the 100 percent CO2 would warm no more than 3c higher than identical atmospheric air glass cylinder. (both at 1atm)

Spector
June 3, 2011 8:28 am

RE: Matt G: (June 3, 2011 at 5:30 am )
“You say blue visible light doesn’t warm…”
This appears to be a common misconception. An object that is red-hot is warmer than one that is dark and warmer yet is a white-hot object like the sun. Most of the heat energy we receive from the sun is in the form of visible light. Infra-red light is the primary heat-exchange radiation mechanism for cooler objects that emit no visible thermal radiation.
The energy of a photon can be expressed as Planck’s constant times the speed of light divided by the wavelength; so the shorter the wavelength, the higher the energy per photon.
Solar Radiation Spectrum (Wikipedia file)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar_Spectrum.png

Matt G
June 3, 2011 9:12 am

Spector says:
June 3, 2011 at 8:28 am
I agree, this below in the same post is a clue.
“Fair enough lets assume that this is correct, energy from the sun is warming the planet and light is just taking a ride with it.”
My point is even if this wasn’t true, the claim made by Myrrh is still incorrect. Due to all observed scientific experiments don’t support only thermal IR warming the planet arguement and therefore oceans.

wayne
June 3, 2011 2:23 pm

Matt G to Myrrh:
June 3, 2011 at 5:30 am
“There is no thermal IR energy from ths sun because it is from a all shortwave source.”
Matt G says:
June 3, 2011 at 9:12 am
My point is even if this wasn’t true, the claim made by Myrrh is still incorrect. Due to all observed scientific experiments don’t support only thermal IR warming the planet arguement and therefore oceans.

But Matt, you do realize the energy received from the sun at 5778 K between 0.78 µm and 1000 µm (LW down) is 43% of all received joules. Of course 57% is in the visible and higher frequencies (UV, X-ray) but don’t marginalize infrared so easily from the sun’s radiation. Also consider that a smaller portion of the energy in LW radiation reflects compared to reflected SW visible radiation, most UV is absorbed high above and that net energy never touches the surface, etc.. Ask yourself… “What is the spectrum of what is called ‘albedo’ and the radiation absorbed by the atmosphere and how much in each band”… might surprise you.
I’m not saying Myrrh is correct, he isn’t in more than one point, but it is Myrrh that led me to look a bit deeper at exactly how much of the sun’s radiation comes in which spectral bands and how much per band. You should pause too and get some curiosity, for your blanket statements above were also wrong.
Myrrh just needs to learn that any radiation that “IS ABSORBED” does warm that matter that absorbs it, always. Even gases that scatter any radiation gain thermal energy and therefore warms, or, chemically used. I know, he refuses to freely acknowledge those facts and that is where he seems to stay outside well known physics in his statements. Myrrh… can’t believe you are back on that very same subject, doubt if anyone else will look deep in your conjecture, I did, and learned some new things.
As for how much from what bands does what, dig! I can’t find it all.

June 3, 2011 4:30 pm

Ok Ira, you write” There is a valid, science-based argument between people I refer to as Warmists, Lukewarmers, and Skeptics. I distinguish their reasoned views from the far out, unscientific rantings of people I refer to as Alarmists and their equal and opposite reaction opponents, who I call Disbelievers.”
As I am one of those people who do not believe I have, as yet, seen any scientific evidence for the existence of AGW – and as all scientific research undertaken to prove “warming by GHGs” – has (to my knowledge) failed, I feel perfectly happy for you to think of me as a non believer, or as a member of the group you refer to as “Disbelievers”. –
But if you are of the opinion that this one “Disbeliever’s” views are “far out, unscientific rantings” then I ask you to take a look at some of what you wrote in your article above.
Yes Ira, – we must never forget that anything above absolute zero emits radiant energy. – However, while the “generally accepted explanation” (for the missing 33 deg. C) is the “Atmospheric Greenhouse Effect” (AGHE) may be a true statement, I say – yes, may be so – but is not necessarily true science and does definitely not “prove” that the Greenhouse theory has become “fact proven”
We are dealing with a “scientific theory” that mainly has to do with the atmosphere, yet – astonishingly – it ignores 99.99 % of all the dry atmospheric gases. (i.e. it concentrates on the so called GHGs and as such is happy with a CO2 concentration of 290 ppm. – or rounded up to 0.03 %, but it is very unhappy with 390 ppm. – or rounded up to 0.04 %. – (If 0.01% = 0.6 °C then what will the doubling of CO2 to 0.08 % do? That Ira, gives you the Catastrophic answer.)
Furthermore the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect” theory mainly deals with radiation and completely ignores conduction between the top of the surface and the bottom of the atmosphere.
Convection is called something completely different (K&T) like “Evapo-transpiration” –
Heat and Infra Red (IR) light are closely related but they are not the same. This is one of the many reasons you and those who believe in “The Science” as seen by Kiehl & Trenberth are under the impression that Nitrogen (N and N2) and Oxygen (O and O2) and for that matter Argon (Ar) do not radiate energy towards the surface.
If you believe that, then you are the one who use pseudo-scientific arguments in your claim that only GHGs can warm the surface by radiation. Nitrogen was warmed not by radiation from-, but by conduction between it and the surface. – So you will do well to remember “that anything above absolute zero emits radiant energy.” –
Which means that the combination of all the atmospheric gases emits radiant energy towards the surface.
But as the energy emitted (by gases) towards the surface was emitted away from the surface in the first place, how can it add to the total?
Only radiation from the Sun can add heat. And once again your “Accepted Science” uses a bias in favor of sunlight (or as you say to about 240 W/m^2 for each square meter.)
Not mentioning the fact that – The Earth’s surface is exposed to a temperature of close to 0 Kelvin or say – 270 °C/m² for exactly the same length of time as it is exposed to 1366 watts per square meter of sunlight.
It is not good enough to pretend that the surface is exposed to 240 W/m² all the time (or 24/7) the rotation of the Earth is important. –Only pseudo science cannot see that.
You say you have dismissed what you regard as “the unscientific Alarmists and Disbelievers”. You should come down off your “High Horse” and take a very close look at what you believe in. Try to parry theory with known facts for a change, – Your “climate heroes” who talk to parrots – could be wrong!
Some facts are that we know that Nitrogen can be heated (it can be both liquid and gas, both forms dependant on temperature) And theory says that it must emit the heat it has acquired, (mainly from the surface) back to space through electromagnetic radiation. –
In which case, – it must also be radiating at least half of its acquired energy content towards the surface. – Bang goes the “Greenhouse Theory” – nice as it was.
So you see your “Science” that says only those gases that can absorb radiation and can be heated by radiation are able to emit radiation have created a situation by which 99.99 % of the atmosphere cannot get rid of its energy “back to space” – as for that purpose radiation is the only option.
On one hand, then, if surface-heated nitrogen, oxygen and argon do not radiate away the thermal energy they acquire, they rob the earth of a means of cooling off – which make them “greenhouse gases” by definition.
On the other hand, if surface-heated nitrogen and oxygen do radiate infrared, then they are also “greenhouse gases,” which defeats the premise that only radiation from the infrared-absorbers raises the Earth’s temperature. Either way, therefore, the convoluted theory your’e going by is shot down by known facts.
If Nitrogen does not emit radiation it is a true “wonder of physics” – or are you telling me that 99.9 % or more of our atmosphere holds a temperature close to “Absolute Zero”? _ There is absolutely nothing special about CO2. –

Latitude
June 3, 2011 6:43 pm

Sometimes the best posts don’t happen in the beginning………
Thank you

June 3, 2011 7:07 pm

Spector says on June 2, 2011 at 8:35 pm

Again, I still maintain that there must be some mechanism for cooling the upper troposphere.

Whatever you do, DON’T use ref #4 in this post.
They are entirely disreputable lot masquerading as physicists claiming to know something about atmospheric radiative physics ..
/sarc
.

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