Guest Post by Ira Glickstein
What should a responsible Skeptic say to an astute audience? When recently invited by the “Technology, Engineering, and Science Plus” group in my community to give a talk and answer questions, I knew I would have an attentive room of tech-savvy professionals. However, they might not be fully tuned in to the details of the Global Warming controversy. Furthermore, they were likely to have opinions closer to the supposed “mainsteam science” orientation than mine.
In this posting, I’ve summarized the main points I think are most likely to align people who are both intelligent and reasonable to the Skeptic side. My Powerpoint (with talking points for each chart in the Notes section under each slide) is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish.

A. Basic Climate Science – Water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), and other “greenhouse” gases cause the Earth Surface to be warmer than it would be if the Atmosphere was just nitrogen.
- Light energy from the Sun warms the Earth System, which consists of our Atmosphere and the Surface. Based on satellite measurements, the Sun provides 1366 Watts per square meter (W/m^2) at the Top of the Atmosphere. After accounting for the Earth’s spherical shape and albedo (reflectiveness), the absorbed energy averages out to about 240 W/m^2 for each square meter.
- To maintain a relatively constant mean temperature, Output Energy must equal Input Energy, so the Earth System must emit about 240 W/m^2 out to Space, which it does.
- We call the Input Energy “light” because we can see (much of) it. We call the Output Energy “heat” because we can feel it. However, whether it is “short wave” energy from the very hot Sun, or “long wave” from the more moderate Earth System, we know that energy is fungible. 240 W/m^2 of one type is equal, power-wise, to 240 W/m^2 of the other. A Watt is a Watt, no matter what :^)
- But, there is an “issue” – if we consider the Earth System as a “black body”, according to the laws of physics, for the Earth System to emit 240 W/m^2, it would have to be at a temperature of only 255 Kelvin, where Kelvins are degrees Celsius above absolute zero. (The Earth System is not exactly a black body, but it is close enough for our purposes here.)
- You may remember that anything above absolute zero emits radiant energy and that 0.0 Kelvin corresponds to -273ºC or -460ºF. The “issue” is that the Earth Surface has a mean temperature closer to 288 Kelvin, corresponding to about +15ºC or +59ºF. In other words, the Surface is about 33ºC or 58ºF warmer than the “black body” formula would indicate. How to explain this added warmth?
- The generally accepted explanation is the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect”. This is true science, but the name is somewhat misleading because a glass greenhouse works mostly by restricting convection while the Atmospheric effect works mostly by restricting radiation. I use “scare quotes” around “greenhouse” to acknowledge this semantic issue.
- The Atmosphere passes most of the “short wave” energy from the Sun and absorbs most of the “long wave” energy from the Surface. The absorbed energy warms the Atmosphere and is re-emitted in all directions at a variety of “long wave” wavelengths. A portion of radiation from the Atmosphere passes out the Top of the Atmosphere to Space. A portion is emitted in the downward direction and is absorbed by the Surface. This absorbed radiant energy accounts for most of the extra 33ºC or 58ºF.
- A variety of gases in the Atmosphere, primarily water vapor (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2), absorb and re-emit “long wave” radiation. These are called “greenhouse gases”.
B. Divergent Views – There is a valid, science-based argument between people I refer to as Warmists, Lukewarmers, and Skeptics. I distinguish their reasoned views from the far out, unscientific rantings of people I refer to as Alarmists and their equal and opposite reaction opponents, who I call Disbelievers.
- VP Al Gore was not the first Alarmist, but his public lectures and his Nobel and Oscar-winning movie, An “Inconvenient” Truth, probably did more than anything else to bring Global Warming Alarmism to the fore in the consciousness of the major media and the general population.
- The scene depicted above was the highlight of his presentation.
- Gore displays the Ice Core record of the past 600,000 years for CO2 (red) and Temperature (blue). He points out the undoubted correlation between the two parameters. When one goes up so does the other. When one goes down, the other does as well. He points out that the then current CO2 level is considerably higher than that of the past 600,000 years, and he projects the future levels of CO2 assuming it continues to rise at current rates. So far, this is all true.
- Dramatically ascending high above the stage on his motorized platform, he implies that mean temperatures will rise in proportion to the CO2. (My graphic is annotated in dashed blue to show the implied warming.) If that happens, he warns, more and more of the polar ice will melt, causing the seas to rise and flooding coastal areas. The ground under the polar ice will be exposed, further reducing the albedo of the Surface and causing further warming. We will reach a tipping point with runaway Global Warming.
- The villain of Gore’s story is the human race and our habit of burning ever-increasing quantities of fossil fuels (coal, oil, natural gas) that release unprecedented amounts of CO2. This scene, more than any other event, is most likely responsible for the birth of what has come to be known as Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming, CAGW. In other words, catastrophe due to human-caused Global Warming. It has become the mantra of the Alarmists and an excuse for governments to regulate all fossil fuels as well as land use that affects albedo. Since all industry and agriculture and civilized life itself depends upon fossil fuels and land use, the Alarmists give suitably oriented politicos an excuse to regulate and tax and restrict virtually everything. We outdoors types will need an indulgence from the government every time we pass wind. And, we can forget about lighting a campfire :^).
- But, as the annotations in my graphic above show, there is a fundamental “Inconvenient” truth about the ice core data. It has absolutely nothing to say about the current Global Warming controversy! Gore was misleading the media and the public when he implied that rising CO2 levels would cause corresponding increases in mean temperatures. In particular, as any scientist who took a close look at the ice core data would see, and as I show in the inset graph in the upper left corner, Temperature always rises eight-hundred or more years before CO2 increases. The same is true in the other direction. The Temperature falls eight-hundred or more years prior to CO2 decreases. What this shows, if anything, is that TEMPERATURE CAUSES CO2, or, that something else causes both to change, with CO2 lagging by hundreds of years. Gore got the direction of causation backwards.
- When the falsehood of this implied causation was pointed out, Gore’s apologists claimed that it was a minor matter and, after all, despite the 800-year lag, both Temperature and CO2 were up together and down together for about 5/6ths of the record. Besides, they said, we are currently burning historically unprecedented amounts of fossil fuel, and, we know that CO2 is a “greenhouse gas”, and so on and on. But, the truth is still that the ice core record is of a time when there were no humans to burn fossil fuels, so why did Gore bring it up since it has no relationship to our current situation? Raw, unfettered Alarmism has had its effect on the media, the political class, and we common citizens who have to pay the costs of the phony CAGW panic.
- In politics, as in physics, every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. In the Case of CAGW, that opposite (and equally false) reaction is what I call Disbeliever AGW or DAGW. These are people who use pseudo-scientific arguments in their claim that humans have had absolutely no hand in the mean temperature rise of the past century, or that there has been no temperature rise, or that the basic science of the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect” is untrue, and so on. I do not like to be to critical of the DAGW crowd because, when it comes to general political decisions, they are more likely than not to agree with me than my opponents, but my academic integrity and ethical duty as a licensed professional engineer require me to state what I see as the error of their arguments. (As I have in my WUWT Visualizing series [1, 2, 3, 4, 5])
- Having dismissed what I regard as the unscientific Alarmists and Disbelievers, that leaves us with three groups that, for the most part, use rational science-base arguments for their diverse views. Of course, every member of each group has somewhat different views, and any attempt to divide them into three distinct types is bound to cross some lines. So, please consider my grouping as approximate.
- Carbon sensitivity, which is the estimate of how much mean temperatures will increase if CO2 doubles from historical or current levels, is one way to determine which of the the three groups a person belongs to. The Warmists tend to accept the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) estimate of 2.0ºC to 4.5ºC. The Skeptics tend to set carbon sensitivity much lower, perhaps 0.2ºC to 1ºC. The third group, which I call Lukewarmers, would suggest 1ºC to 3ºC.
- How much of the rise in CO2 is attributable to human use of fossil fuels is also estimated differently. Warmists would blame humans for nearly all of it, while Skeptics would say less than half. Similarly, the blame for the supposed 0.8ºC rise in mean temperatures since 1880 is mostly attributed to human activities, while Skeptics say that data bias “adjustments” by the official climate record keepers is responsible for about a third of the supposed warming, and that natural cycles, over which humans have no control, are responsible for about half of it, leaving only 0.1ºC (or maybe up to 0.2ºC) to human responsibility. Lukewarmers are somewhere in-between.
- Skeptics have well-justified suspicions that the official climate data keepers were “cooking the books” to lend whatever support they could to the highest estimates of carbon sensitivity. Around the year 2000, US Mean Temperature data was “adjusted” down by 0.1 to 0.2ºC for years prior to the 1970’s, and upwards by 0.2 to 0.3ºC for years after the 1970’s, increasing supposed warming by 0.3 to 0.5ºC.
- The surfacestations.org project published photos of official temperature measurement stations that were very near artificial sources of heat, with most being in the lowest two of the five quality levels established by the government. The poor quality stations were compared to nearby well-located stations. There were large temperature deltas that could only be accounted for if the the stations now poorly-located were originally well-located, but had been influenced by nearby development, such as paved parking lots, buildings, and air conditioning vents.
- According to a figure in the 1990 IPCC report, 1100 to 1300 AD saw temperatures in the northern hemisphere that were higher than current levels. However, the IPCC 2001 report included the infamous so-called “hockey stick” chart that managed to make the Medieval Warm Period of about 1000 years ago disappear! (My Powerpoint set includes charts with evidence of each of the aforementioned issues.)
- These suspicions were not fully confirmed until 2009 when someone (probably an inside whistle-blower) released emails and computer code from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) in the UK, and, later that year, a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request yielded a stash from the US NASA-GISS (Goddard Institute for Space Studies).
C. Climategate – UK Climatic Research Unit (CRU) emails and the US NASA GISS FOIA emails. What they tell us about the published Global Warming data.

- I refer to the CRU as the Climategate Research Unit or, more simply, the Fudge Factory because the words “fudge factor” appear in their computer code. Phil Jones, PhD, is the CRU Director. He confirmed suspicions about the infamous “Hockey Stick” graph when, in an email, he called it “Mike’s Nature trick” (because a version of that graph appeared in a paper by Dr. Michael Mann in the prestigious journal Nature ). He also wrote that the “trick” was designed to “hide the decline” in tree ring proxy data. The tree-ring expert associated with CRU, Keith Brifa, PhD, admits, in one of the emails that “the recent warmth was probably matched about 1,000 years ago”. (My Powerpoint set includes slides with direct quotes from the Climategate materials.)

- Moving on to the FOIA emails from GISS, it is interesting to note that their HQ, in New York City, happens to be in the same building as the famous restaurant where Jerry Seinfeld dined with George, Kramer, and Elaine. (It was never revealed what Kramer did for a living – perhaps he was the chief analyst at GISS :^)
- The most revealing email from GISS is reproduced above. It was from Makiko Sato, PhD to her Boss, GISS-Director James Hansen, PhD, detailing the seven different analyses and comparisons of US mean temperatures for 1934 and 1998. The later year was the hottest in the 1990’s, so it was, let us say “inconvenient” that 1934, according to data published by GISS in 1999, was over 0.5ºC warmer. If Global Warming was almost entirely due to recent human activities, and was accelerating, how could the 1930 have been warmer?
- Just as the Hockey Stick made the Medieval Warm Period disappear, GISS tried mightily to make 1934 cooler than 1998, but only succeeded in reducing the 0.5ºC lead into a dead heat. Notice that the 0.5ºC “adjustment” is more than half the supposed total warming since 1880.
- I would like to trust the work of taxpayer-supported science, but, it seems, we must rely on President Reagan’s advice regarding the old Soviet Union, “Trust, but verify!”
D. What We Can and Should Do – Energy policy (cap and trade scam vs carbon tax). Efficiency, conservation, “green“, and renewable sources.
- I am quite sure that Global Warming is REAL (i.e. the mean temperature of the Surface has increased by 0.5 to 0.6ºC since 1880) but, most of that increase is due to Natural Cycles over which we humans have no control.
- However, the warming is PARTLY Due to Rising CO2 Levels and human actions are PART of the Cause.
- There is not and never has been any real danger of catastrophe or even of serious net detriment to human life due to increased CO2 levels. Indeed, modest increases in these parameters are most likely a net benefit.
- However, we Skeptics have to be realistic in the current political climate. Like it or not (and I do not like it) the official climate “Team” (i.e., the “Hockey Team” :^) has convinced the political and media establishment, and much of the population that something has to be done. We cannot fight something with nothing, so we need something more than a passive policy of do nothing because nothing is necessary.
- Therefore, I favor reduction of the carbon footprint by efficiency, conservation, recycling, and so on, plus the introduction, if and when economically practical of so-called “Green” energy, including Nuclear, Water, Wind, Biomass and, particularly, “Clean” Coal.
- If nothing else, these will do minimum harm and, if successful, will reduce US dependence upon foreign oil. We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.
- As for the Cap and Trade scam, it is a Politician’s Delight that rewards powerful Interests, wrecks the economy, and will NOT significantly reduce carbon emissions. It seems to me that some countries and US states that have adopted Cap and Trade have realized their folly and are backing away from it.
- You may be surprised that I favor some version of a straight Carbon Tax, collected at the mine, well, and port, with the proceeds returned on an equal basis to citizens and legal residents. Yes, James Hansen and (pardon the expression Ralph Nader) also favor it, but, so do conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer, the Wall Street Journal, and others on the right. My support for this tax is based on what I wrote above, “We cannot fight something with nothing” and “We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.”
I’m interested in your critique and comments. (My Powerpoint presentation is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish..)
MarkW,
Dr Glickstein has a good point on the oil question, I’m afraid, and I would even take it a bit further.
To be blunt, no other issue in the region, except for possible WMDs, is as important as the economy-driving, civilization-building and life-giving oil. We should own up to reality and admit that it is a legitimate and yes, a moral goal, to fight for access to key resources.
Those who sit on top of the stupendous reserves and who, happen to find themselves beside the vital trade lanes you mention, receive more than fair compensation for just being behavung themselves. The left riles about how it’s all about oil …a fair point, atually… and our governments have to satisfy them and the hand-wringing centrists with “democracy building” theatres and whatnot, but both the left and the centre forget how quickly we and our civilization would wind up in the tank without reasonable access to this resource. Access guaranteed by our brave men and women in desert camo.
With all the philosophising about having “progressed” or whatever, the critics (typically the prime beneficiaries of the system) forget that thanks to the kind of civilization we are, many of us even care. And while we may be selfish, as is the entire world, we let the inhabitants who squat over the “black gold” play at nationhood, and preen themselves with bombastic claims to being heirs of amazing and superior civilizations and religions. We politely applaud their prattling at the UN, bow to their “royalty,” and patiently watch and smile as they fritter away their lives with costly diversions and luxuries.
This is historically unique; the reality is that if the Euro-American civilization had been so inclined, it could have simply gone in, killed, chased off or pacified anyone in the way and grabbed the spoils. As this has been the human pattern and the historical norm until recently, and as most of the world acts in much more selfish and brutal ways, we have more things to be proud of than ashamed of.
RE: Smokey says: (June 1, 2011 at 4:46 am )
“Ammonite says:
‘Positive feedback does not imply runaway.’
Actually, it does. …”
Provided that the overall feedback-loop amplification is unity or greater. (cf. The Armstrong Regenerative Radio Receiver — 1914) A net positive feedback-loop gain of 0.75 results in a stable system that has four times the amplification it would have without feedback. In practice, such stability is often problematical.
Spector,
Thanks for pointing that out. However, there is no evidence of positive feedbacks. The current climate is exceptionally benign.
Dave Springer, Thanks for our kind words and I always value your erudite comments.
In particular, it is amazing that you bring up Einstein’s Cosmological Constant, which he said was his “greatest blunder”. Several years ago I mentioned that in my free online novel. It takes place several decades in the future, and I have a character say these words (towards the end of chapter 7 – http://2052hp.blogspot.com/2009/01/chapter-7-charade-and-confrontation.html):
“… We sometimes make mistakes. Our mistakes tend to be big ones! Historic ones even! Our mistakes have contributed more to the knowledge of human civilization than the non-mistakes of everyone else combined! For instance when Einstein said his suggestion of a ‘cosmological constant’ was his ‘greatest blunder’. That turned out to be the key that unlocked our current understanding of the unified field theory! … “
In the same chapter, the same character says something that came to me as a revelation (it is still meaningless to me :^):
“…the fabric of spacetime curves but light goes straight. Starlight passing near the Sun appears, to us, to curve. It came to me that if a supposedly ‘straight-edge’ measuring stick was actually slightly curved; a straight light beam would appear to be curved and longer than it was. I’m convinced the Universe is finite and far smaller than it appears. The ten or eleven dimensions of spacetime are wrapped up in each other making many Earth-like planets as close to us as faith is to reason, if only we can discover how to travel via a wormhole. …”
Until I read your most recent comment, I did not know that Einstein’s Cosmological Constant had been quantified, nor that it was just a wee bit over zero. And, do you have any idea what it means to say “the fabric of spacetime curves but light goes straight” If so, please let me know! advTHANKSance!
Indeed, so problematical, in fact, self-sustaining oscillations result (when gain .GE. 1). In the Armstrong Super-Regenerative receiver as ‘loop gain’ IS greater than one (far, far greater as it turns out) – the thing (the super-regen receiver) DOES break into oscillations (at the RF frequency)! (The wiki coverage of this topic does not do it justice IMO; see better reference below.)
In fact, the whole operation, including AM detection depends on this – and something called a ‘quench’ rate (or quench function that is self-sustaining as to rate).
The quench rate is the rate at which the RF oscillation is essentially stopped – quenched … as it is impractical to build a one-tube (valve for the English) super-regen RF receiver that is usable for much if one has only managed to _increase_ the original (tube/transistor/FET) gain by only a factor of four (from say x40 gain to 160 even).
Using positive feedback as the Armstrong SR does to the point where one has a self-sustaining oscillation the ‘effective’ gain increase is to a factor so large, that the noise level (of the gain device) is a limiting factor to sensitivity. There is actually a trick involved, the old ‘negative resistance’ trick is actually used to accomplish this feat, and the fact that a series of ‘samples’ are taken of the original incoming RF signal (owing to this periodic oscillation behavior at the ‘quench’ rate).
From this point forward, I’ll let someone with a fully researched presentation pick it up:
Designing Super-Regenerative Receivers, By Dr Eddie Insam
http://www.eix.co.uk/Articles/Radio/Welcome.htm
Excerpt from Fig 1:
Figure 1
Okay … back to climate-related, atmospheric physics stuff …
.
Ira says:
“the fabric of spacetime curves but light goes straight”
Light only thinks it’s going straight because it travels along a geodesic. And if you want to get really technical, a photon doesn’t subjectively travel at all. It is emitted and reabsorbed in no time because it is traveling at exactly light speed, therefore time is slowed to a complete stop for the photon. It can travel 13 billion light years instantaneously. Subjectively, of course.☺
>>
Smokey says:
June 1, 2011 at 8:27 pm
Light only thinks it’s going straight because it travels along a geodesic.
<<
Technically speaking, geodesics refer to extremum paths on the surface of the Earth, or more generally on the surface of a sphere. Bernoulli coined a term for shortest path time: brachistochrone. For light, shortest distance and shortest time are usually equivalent (if you can pin down the time dimension).
Using the calculus of variations, you can derive Snell’s law by computing the brachistochrone for light travelling, for example, through air and then glass.
>>
And if you want to get really technical, a photon doesn’t subjectively travel at all. It is emitted and reabsorbed in no time because it is traveling at exactly light speed, therefore time is slowed to a complete stop for the photon. It can travel 13 billion light years instantaneously. Subjectively, of course.☺
<<
True, if you’re talking about light travelling through a vacuum or free space. It goes slower than c when travelling through a transparent medium such as water or glass. By the way, since light travelling through water or glass goes slower than c, are the photons aware of passing time? 🙂
Jim
“Therefore, I favor reduction of the carbon footprint by efficiency, conservation, recycling, and so on, plus the introduction, if and when economically practical of so-called ‘Green’ energy, including Nuclear, Water, Wind, Biomass and, particularly, ‘Clean’ Coal.
If nothing else, these will do minimum harm and, if successful, will reduce US dependence upon foreign oil. ”
—-
Ugh. I was with you until that point. With the exception of biofuels none of these does anything to reduce dependence on foreign oil (much of it Canadian for us, but yes it is fungible). All of those sources are sources of electricity and so require electrification of the transportation system if you want to actually displace oil. Do not get me started on using that electricity to make hydrogen… OK, they make heat too, but show me a practical heat battery. We already have sufficient generating capacity to electrify much of the US fleet so these “green” alternatives only serve to displace coal and gas powered generation. Unless you’re aiming for a carbon agenda these sources of power do nothing whatsoever to help oil dependency.
I do agree that oil dependency is a real strategic and foreign policy problem and that a fuel tax is the best way to encourage practical alternatives. Certainly it’s better than some silly cap and trade monstrosity that can only encourage corruption and distortion of the markets. Plus I favor it on the simple principle that consumption taxes are more efficient and “fair.” I’m sure that last bit will get some grumpy replies so I’ll add that I don’t live in some mass transit fairyland like NYC nor do I bike my way around town.
RE: _Jim says (June 1, 2011 at 8:20 pm)
Indeed, so problematical, in fact, self-sustaining oscillations result
Yes, this is often the problem because it is difficult to keep the closed loop gain below positive one for all conditions. Perhaps this is the reason early movies used a loud squeal as the signature sound of a radio.
BTW I notice that the temperature of the universal cosmic microwave radiation is around -270 degrees C and the dark side of the moon typically cools to as low as -110 degrees C, so -55 degrees C appears to be the unique temperature of the tropopause.
I still maintain that all excess heat convected upward must be converted to some form of radiation that departs the upper atmosphere. I believe this must happen primarily below the tropopause because that is where most convective activity stops. If this extra heat were not radiated out, we would have the equivalent of a blocked chimney and progressive warming would shut down convection as in a temperature inversion.
In the troposphere, the temperature drops at a typical rate of 6.5 degrees C per kilometer until it reaches -55 degrees C at the tropopause. At this point, most of the water vapor has been condensed out of the atmosphere. Above this level, the residual water in the atmosphere should have a minimal greenhouse effect. Thus radiation from the minimal water vapor and what might be called micro-fine ice-crystals and other dust in the upper atmosphere remain as primary candidates for keeping this level of the atmosphere (the tropopause) as cold as it is. Perhaps an increasing convection trend would release more cooling particles (negative feedback) at the tropopause.
We do not need or want another tax, thank you very much.
We need cheap energy, and lots of it. And IF the price of that is a planet that is 1 degree warmer 200 years from now – then that is a price worth paying.
The kind of temperature impacts that are supposedly being “mitigated” by the taxes are minuscule compared to natural variability. I do not understand why anybody is even remotely interested in entertaining the idea of trying to “mitigate”, possibly, perhaps, maybe, 1 degree of change over a few hundred years when nature can all by itself cause changes of +/-5 or even +/-20 degrees. It is complete and utter nonsense.
Matt G says:
June 1, 2011 at 4:16 am
Thermal IR is not the only thermal source, this is your mistake of misunderstanding. etc.
I think the mistake here is that you’re actually missing my point of view, understandable in the complex muddle of these discussions, it’s the claims for the output, the effects, which I’m arguing against. The AGWScience claims are that Solar, UV and Visible and Near IR, are the actual energies converting to heat the land and oceans of our Earth. This AGWScience energy budget, as in the KT97, claims that it’s these and not Thermal IR which they exclude completely in their downwelling budget.
Moreover, the claim is as Ira gives it, repeats it, that it’s these Solar shortwave energies which are the heat we feel from the Sun. This is attributing the property of one wavelength to others which do not have the same property. This is frankly BS. However, it is believed because the meme has been deliberately spread as misinformation from those organising the tweaking of the science here. Traditional science teaching is real science fact on this point, see the NASA page, now gone but web captured, the heat we feel from the Sun is thermal IR. AGWScience is science fiction in its entirety.
See my post to you and Brian H here: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/05/25/snowball-earth-ended-by-methane-now-an-impossible-theory/#comment-672215
“Alexander Feht says:
June 1, 2011 at 1:47 pm
Finally, I don’t want to be labelled or categorized. Dr. Glickstein’s addiction to using various awkward names, such as “disbelievers,” “lukewarmers,” and “skeptics,” is disconcerting, incorrect, and slightly insulting. I am not a “disbeliever.” I am not a “skeptic” even. I am just an honest thinking human being, facing the obvious huge lie.”
Its an alarmists tactic though.
Ira supports a carbon tax even though it will not reduce future temperatures even if the IPCCs projections are correct. He supports the GHG backradiation theory (and this backradiation heating the earth an extra 33 degrees) even though it is unscientific nonsense. And criticises papers by scientists like Postma and the slayers book.
Ira is not a sceptic. He’s an alarmist pretending to be a sceptic. His approach is there is no real danger but however we must do something. Based on AGW pseudo science that he churns out thread after thread.
RJ says:
June 2, 2011 at 1:43 am
Ira is not a sceptic. He’s an alarmist pretending to be a sceptic.
My conclusion too after trying to engage with him on a few of his threads..
What he manages to do is to keep pushing the same disinformation from AGWScience as sound bites, repetition, repetition, repetition, as someone said, tell the lie often and loud enough and it will be believed. People take these sound bites of tweaked impossible physics as real because they think ‘it is well known’, that it is standard science. And then he always comes in with the cruncher, that this means that we must do something, we must impose higher and higher taxes and waste billions into the ever deeper pockets of those milking the subsidies for nonsense windmills and solar panels in cold countries regardless that this will not only lower the standard of living of the majority, but actively subject them to draconian serfdom, if they don’t freeze to death first.
[snip]
I’m taking a break from posting on this, I hope that someone with the resources, if not here then on some other blog, can pull together enough experts from the various disciplines to systematically analyse the basics misinformation produced by AGWScience pretending it is real traditional science. Please see http://joannenova.com.au/2011/05/so-what-is-the-second-darn-law post 423
It’s the nitty gritty of the basics where this has been tweaked, and until sorted this will continue to create more and confusion, the ideal state of affairs for those promoting it.
Ira, adiabatic warming/cooling of air during thermogravitational convection is not some freaky opinion, as you seem to believe, but universally accepted science of atmospheric circulation. This convection is responsible for 70% of surface cooling (heat transport) in atmosphere, and it supports temperature gradient between 5 to 9,8 C per 1 km in the whole thickness of troposphere. It is based on universal equation of gas expansion/compression, which does not depend on chemical composition of gases, except for water vapor, because it does not behave as ideal gas (too close to the point of condensation). This simply makes so-called greenhouse effect redundant as explanation of difference between effective radiation temperature (-18C) and surface temperature. The very existence of GHE can’t be measured, calculated or derived by any available method, so hypothesis of its existence is not a scientific hypothesis, but an article of faith. And yes, I do not believe in this assertion, denying it not because I can disproof it, but because articles of faith should not be a part of any scientific discussion (Occam’s Razor principle).
_Jim says:
June 1, 2011 at 4:32 pm
Richard M says on June 1, 2011 at 3:20 pm:
I don’t think we’re on quite the same wavelength, but continue to read and contribute here on WUWT.
I believe we’re having a forest for the trees problem. I’m not talking about any complex interactions. I’m simply referring to the claim I’ve often heard that GHGs are responsible for much of the heat that eventually leaves good ole planet Earth. What percentage of the total photon energy radiated from the Earth atmosphere/surface is directly from GHG gases? If the answer that question is “high” and GHGs can be energized through contact as well as radiation absorption, then GHGs must have a “cooling effect”.
Thanks Tsk Tsk for your comments and partial agreement.
Efficiency and conservation reduce the consumption of all types of energy and, in an elastic market, should reduce the amount of oil we have to import. “Clean coal” (if done right which means underground gasification or liquifaction to reduce above ground pollution and use of the CO2 as plant food in enhanced-CO2 greenhouses rather than the silly idea of re-sequestering the carbon) will use plentiful US coal resources and, to the extent that all types of energy are somewhat fungible, will reduce the need for imported oil. For example, for the past 7 years my wife and I have shared one car, a Prius hybrid that uses gasoline to generate the electricity. We also have an electric golf cart. Our next car, in a couple years, will be a plug-in hybrid, which, for nearby travel up to 60 miles or so, will be electric-only.
Much of the US may even be able to use liquified coalgas for transportation, particularly in truck fleets.
We are totally in agreement that a straight, honest tax is better than the alternative and I second your words: “…oil dependency is a real strategic and foreign policy problem and that a fuel tax is the best way to encourage practical alternatives. Certainly it’s better than some silly cap and trade monstrosity that can only encourage corruption and distortion of the markets. Plus I favor it on the simple principle that consumption taxes are more efficient and ‘fair.'”
Human ingenuity is amazing, particularly when we use it to save our own money at the individual and corporate levels! No one can predict what alternative fuel source is most practical (algae vs tidal power? who knows?) BUT, we can be sure that the future holds some great solutions. Let us unleash the power of self-interest and find out.
@Ira
No. “Tsk Tsk” is right. There are two distinct types of energy consumption in the U.S. Electricity and liquid transporation fuels. Never the twain shall meet. As Tsk Tsk said we don’t import a bit of oil to generate electricity and for all practical purposes not a bit of electricity is used for transporation. Dependence on foreign oil is wholly driven by air/ground transportation fleet.
The practical ways to fix it is some combination of:
1) more fuel efficient vehicles
2) less distance travelled
3) alternative liquid fuels
“Drill baby drill” only shuffles the problem off into the future but it’s probably advisable to give us breathing room needed to implement fixes 1 through 3.
The commercial transportation fleet is already doing everything they can to increase fuel efficiency and optimize distance travelled. That would require a breakthru internal combustion engine to change things much there. The non-commercial transportation fleet is another matter because individuals generally aren’t as good as professional bean counters at finding ways to save money. Individuals generally aren’t proactive like businesses but are rather reactive to immediate pain. In this case the reaction doesn’t happen until gasoline price goes so high as to take a painful chunk out of disposable income. The response to that pain is less unessential driving, better route planning, and acquisition of a more fuel efficient vehicle. For many folks the acquisition cost of a more fuel efficient vehicle is too high especially in a recession. So they hole up at home and drive their gas guzzler less. Home entertainment industries prosper at the expense of away-from-home entertainment industries. Make a note of that for the benefit of your investment portfolio.
@Ira
“Much of the US may even be able to use liquified coalgas for transportation, particularly in truck fleets.”
Doubtful. Liquifaction process to make gasoline/diesel/ethanol equivalents from methane or coal feedstocks is bloody expensive. Any other liquid hydrocarbon fuel requires extensive engine modification and makes adoption of it a glacial process at best. Even ethanol is limited by the amount you can mix into gasoline without ruining a gasoline engine. That limit is 10%. You can’t mix any ethanol into diesel fuel. That said a significant number of vehicles on the road nowdays are E85 capable meaning they self-adjust to any percentage of ethanol in gasoline up to 85%. This is actually a good thing because it closes the loop for bio-synthetic liquid fuel production where those fuels require no engine modifications. Naturally ocurring organisms, you see, already produce ethanol and diesel-compatible oils. The crux is they produce it in small quantities as an wanted byproduct of metabolism. The trick for us is genetically modify organisms for maximal production of the byproduct and shelter said organisms against more metabolic-efficient natural competitors that minimize the unwanted byproduct. It’s a slam dunk solution for anyone who knows beans about biology and genetics and I happen to have studied both topics for years and keep up with recent developments in genetic engineering. Genetic engineering technology is advancing so fast it reminds of the advances in semi-conductor technology. Just 10 years ago it was a billion-dollar effort to map a single human genome and took several years. Today it’s about $10,000 and takes several days. When it gets down to $1000 dollars a new medical field will open up where just about everyone has their genome mapped and therapies for various ailments can be tailored to them resulting in much higher curative success at lower cost.
Don’t forget sensible heat transfer to the poles (via airmasses); were it not for movement of ‘air’ from warmer points the poles would be much colder (and pole cooling is effected by radiative cooling into space of course).
Zdunkowski, Trautmann and Bott should provide an answer: Radiation in the Atmosphere: A Course in Theoretical Meteorology
Nota Bene – I believe a pdf copy can be downloaded from the link above.
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Zero engineering courses there Ira?
I think the proper term for the original hybrids should be “Kinetic energy recovery vehicles“.
You see, upon application of the brakes rather than convert kinetic energy into wasted thermal energy (via friction in the brake pads upon contact with the rotors/discs/drums) that kinetic energy is converted into electricity – which is then stored for later motive use.
Quite a benefit if living in Vancouver or Burnaby BC for instance (very hilly).
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(This is why certain courses have mandatory prerequisites …)
Have you read any of my posts to other posters in this thread?
In particular: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/05/30/skeptic-strategy-for-talking-about-global-warming/#comment-671668
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From an Ira quote: “…the fabric of spacetime curves but light goes straight.”
If the above is true then the gravitational lensing effect of curving light must be explained better.
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap090921.html
That should have been “From and Ira post” not quote.
Re. _Jim says:
June 1, 2011 at 2:37 pm
“Reiterating, it is the surface (literally: things on the surface like grass, tree leaves, roofs, sand etc), which cool at night (via IR radiation directly into space) and being in contact with the air then cools the air. ”
But only the bottom few feet of course, enough to help frost form, and the reason for which thermometers should be placed several feet up. Cold air inversions are the exception–as all know, the air gets colder with altitude. In fact ground heat usually warms the air more than isolated surfaces can sink heat. But I’ve seen Idaho potato fields get very cold on July nights when ground heat gets insulated by all the radiating green leaves.
Most of the land surface is not covered with straw insulation. So are we to assume that the air temperature above the rain forest canopy is much lower than that beneath it? Has this effect been quantified?
If desertification be linked to GW, then it would constitute positive feedback, but if it’s linked to global cooling, that would translate to negative feedback. If current Sahara greening is in fact due to decreasing temperatures, we are presented with positive feedback and amplified cooling. I haven’t heard of any heat records in the Libyan desert since King Idris was deposed. –AGF
David Springer, concerning production of biofuels from genetically modified organisms:
Mr. Springer, I have posted references to your commentary on other internet forums, and there is great skepticism that your figure of 20,000 gallons of bio-diesel per acre per year is actually possible in the context of large-scale commercial production.
Virtually everyone who has commented views the use of genetically modified organisms for producing hydrocarbon fuels as being fundamentally no different than growing corn for the production of ethanol.
Do you have any further information concerning what the basis is for your estimate of 20,000 gallons of bio-diesel per acre per year?
As far as moving into commercial-scale production, why would the use of genetically modified organisms not carry the same kind of economic and environmental baggage that growing corn for the production of ethanol carries?