Guest Post by Ira Glickstein
What should a responsible Skeptic say to an astute audience? When recently invited by the “Technology, Engineering, and Science Plus” group in my community to give a talk and answer questions, I knew I would have an attentive room of tech-savvy professionals. However, they might not be fully tuned in to the details of the Global Warming controversy. Furthermore, they were likely to have opinions closer to the supposed “mainsteam science” orientation than mine.
In this posting, I’ve summarized the main points I think are most likely to align people who are both intelligent and reasonable to the Skeptic side. My Powerpoint (with talking points for each chart in the Notes section under each slide) is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish.

A. Basic Climate Science – Water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), and other “greenhouse” gases cause the Earth Surface to be warmer than it would be if the Atmosphere was just nitrogen.
- Light energy from the Sun warms the Earth System, which consists of our Atmosphere and the Surface. Based on satellite measurements, the Sun provides 1366 Watts per square meter (W/m^2) at the Top of the Atmosphere. After accounting for the Earth’s spherical shape and albedo (reflectiveness), the absorbed energy averages out to about 240 W/m^2 for each square meter.
- To maintain a relatively constant mean temperature, Output Energy must equal Input Energy, so the Earth System must emit about 240 W/m^2 out to Space, which it does.
- We call the Input Energy “light” because we can see (much of) it. We call the Output Energy “heat” because we can feel it. However, whether it is “short wave” energy from the very hot Sun, or “long wave” from the more moderate Earth System, we know that energy is fungible. 240 W/m^2 of one type is equal, power-wise, to 240 W/m^2 of the other. A Watt is a Watt, no matter what :^)
- But, there is an “issue” – if we consider the Earth System as a “black body”, according to the laws of physics, for the Earth System to emit 240 W/m^2, it would have to be at a temperature of only 255 Kelvin, where Kelvins are degrees Celsius above absolute zero. (The Earth System is not exactly a black body, but it is close enough for our purposes here.)
- You may remember that anything above absolute zero emits radiant energy and that 0.0 Kelvin corresponds to -273ºC or -460ºF. The “issue” is that the Earth Surface has a mean temperature closer to 288 Kelvin, corresponding to about +15ºC or +59ºF. In other words, the Surface is about 33ºC or 58ºF warmer than the “black body” formula would indicate. How to explain this added warmth?
- The generally accepted explanation is the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect”. This is true science, but the name is somewhat misleading because a glass greenhouse works mostly by restricting convection while the Atmospheric effect works mostly by restricting radiation. I use “scare quotes” around “greenhouse” to acknowledge this semantic issue.
- The Atmosphere passes most of the “short wave” energy from the Sun and absorbs most of the “long wave” energy from the Surface. The absorbed energy warms the Atmosphere and is re-emitted in all directions at a variety of “long wave” wavelengths. A portion of radiation from the Atmosphere passes out the Top of the Atmosphere to Space. A portion is emitted in the downward direction and is absorbed by the Surface. This absorbed radiant energy accounts for most of the extra 33ºC or 58ºF.
- A variety of gases in the Atmosphere, primarily water vapor (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2), absorb and re-emit “long wave” radiation. These are called “greenhouse gases”.
B. Divergent Views – There is a valid, science-based argument between people I refer to as Warmists, Lukewarmers, and Skeptics. I distinguish their reasoned views from the far out, unscientific rantings of people I refer to as Alarmists and their equal and opposite reaction opponents, who I call Disbelievers.
- VP Al Gore was not the first Alarmist, but his public lectures and his Nobel and Oscar-winning movie, An “Inconvenient” Truth, probably did more than anything else to bring Global Warming Alarmism to the fore in the consciousness of the major media and the general population.
- The scene depicted above was the highlight of his presentation.
- Gore displays the Ice Core record of the past 600,000 years for CO2 (red) and Temperature (blue). He points out the undoubted correlation between the two parameters. When one goes up so does the other. When one goes down, the other does as well. He points out that the then current CO2 level is considerably higher than that of the past 600,000 years, and he projects the future levels of CO2 assuming it continues to rise at current rates. So far, this is all true.
- Dramatically ascending high above the stage on his motorized platform, he implies that mean temperatures will rise in proportion to the CO2. (My graphic is annotated in dashed blue to show the implied warming.) If that happens, he warns, more and more of the polar ice will melt, causing the seas to rise and flooding coastal areas. The ground under the polar ice will be exposed, further reducing the albedo of the Surface and causing further warming. We will reach a tipping point with runaway Global Warming.
- The villain of Gore’s story is the human race and our habit of burning ever-increasing quantities of fossil fuels (coal, oil, natural gas) that release unprecedented amounts of CO2. This scene, more than any other event, is most likely responsible for the birth of what has come to be known as Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming, CAGW. In other words, catastrophe due to human-caused Global Warming. It has become the mantra of the Alarmists and an excuse for governments to regulate all fossil fuels as well as land use that affects albedo. Since all industry and agriculture and civilized life itself depends upon fossil fuels and land use, the Alarmists give suitably oriented politicos an excuse to regulate and tax and restrict virtually everything. We outdoors types will need an indulgence from the government every time we pass wind. And, we can forget about lighting a campfire :^).
- But, as the annotations in my graphic above show, there is a fundamental “Inconvenient” truth about the ice core data. It has absolutely nothing to say about the current Global Warming controversy! Gore was misleading the media and the public when he implied that rising CO2 levels would cause corresponding increases in mean temperatures. In particular, as any scientist who took a close look at the ice core data would see, and as I show in the inset graph in the upper left corner, Temperature always rises eight-hundred or more years before CO2 increases. The same is true in the other direction. The Temperature falls eight-hundred or more years prior to CO2 decreases. What this shows, if anything, is that TEMPERATURE CAUSES CO2, or, that something else causes both to change, with CO2 lagging by hundreds of years. Gore got the direction of causation backwards.
- When the falsehood of this implied causation was pointed out, Gore’s apologists claimed that it was a minor matter and, after all, despite the 800-year lag, both Temperature and CO2 were up together and down together for about 5/6ths of the record. Besides, they said, we are currently burning historically unprecedented amounts of fossil fuel, and, we know that CO2 is a “greenhouse gas”, and so on and on. But, the truth is still that the ice core record is of a time when there were no humans to burn fossil fuels, so why did Gore bring it up since it has no relationship to our current situation? Raw, unfettered Alarmism has had its effect on the media, the political class, and we common citizens who have to pay the costs of the phony CAGW panic.
- In politics, as in physics, every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. In the Case of CAGW, that opposite (and equally false) reaction is what I call Disbeliever AGW or DAGW. These are people who use pseudo-scientific arguments in their claim that humans have had absolutely no hand in the mean temperature rise of the past century, or that there has been no temperature rise, or that the basic science of the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect” is untrue, and so on. I do not like to be to critical of the DAGW crowd because, when it comes to general political decisions, they are more likely than not to agree with me than my opponents, but my academic integrity and ethical duty as a licensed professional engineer require me to state what I see as the error of their arguments. (As I have in my WUWT Visualizing series [1, 2, 3, 4, 5])
- Having dismissed what I regard as the unscientific Alarmists and Disbelievers, that leaves us with three groups that, for the most part, use rational science-base arguments for their diverse views. Of course, every member of each group has somewhat different views, and any attempt to divide them into three distinct types is bound to cross some lines. So, please consider my grouping as approximate.
- Carbon sensitivity, which is the estimate of how much mean temperatures will increase if CO2 doubles from historical or current levels, is one way to determine which of the the three groups a person belongs to. The Warmists tend to accept the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) estimate of 2.0ºC to 4.5ºC. The Skeptics tend to set carbon sensitivity much lower, perhaps 0.2ºC to 1ºC. The third group, which I call Lukewarmers, would suggest 1ºC to 3ºC.
- How much of the rise in CO2 is attributable to human use of fossil fuels is also estimated differently. Warmists would blame humans for nearly all of it, while Skeptics would say less than half. Similarly, the blame for the supposed 0.8ºC rise in mean temperatures since 1880 is mostly attributed to human activities, while Skeptics say that data bias “adjustments” by the official climate record keepers is responsible for about a third of the supposed warming, and that natural cycles, over which humans have no control, are responsible for about half of it, leaving only 0.1ºC (or maybe up to 0.2ºC) to human responsibility. Lukewarmers are somewhere in-between.
- Skeptics have well-justified suspicions that the official climate data keepers were “cooking the books” to lend whatever support they could to the highest estimates of carbon sensitivity. Around the year 2000, US Mean Temperature data was “adjusted” down by 0.1 to 0.2ºC for years prior to the 1970’s, and upwards by 0.2 to 0.3ºC for years after the 1970’s, increasing supposed warming by 0.3 to 0.5ºC.
- The surfacestations.org project published photos of official temperature measurement stations that were very near artificial sources of heat, with most being in the lowest two of the five quality levels established by the government. The poor quality stations were compared to nearby well-located stations. There were large temperature deltas that could only be accounted for if the the stations now poorly-located were originally well-located, but had been influenced by nearby development, such as paved parking lots, buildings, and air conditioning vents.
- According to a figure in the 1990 IPCC report, 1100 to 1300 AD saw temperatures in the northern hemisphere that were higher than current levels. However, the IPCC 2001 report included the infamous so-called “hockey stick” chart that managed to make the Medieval Warm Period of about 1000 years ago disappear! (My Powerpoint set includes charts with evidence of each of the aforementioned issues.)
- These suspicions were not fully confirmed until 2009 when someone (probably an inside whistle-blower) released emails and computer code from the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) in the UK, and, later that year, a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request yielded a stash from the US NASA-GISS (Goddard Institute for Space Studies).
C. Climategate – UK Climatic Research Unit (CRU) emails and the US NASA GISS FOIA emails. What they tell us about the published Global Warming data.

- I refer to the CRU as the Climategate Research Unit or, more simply, the Fudge Factory because the words “fudge factor” appear in their computer code. Phil Jones, PhD, is the CRU Director. He confirmed suspicions about the infamous “Hockey Stick” graph when, in an email, he called it “Mike’s Nature trick” (because a version of that graph appeared in a paper by Dr. Michael Mann in the prestigious journal Nature ). He also wrote that the “trick” was designed to “hide the decline” in tree ring proxy data. The tree-ring expert associated with CRU, Keith Brifa, PhD, admits, in one of the emails that “the recent warmth was probably matched about 1,000 years ago”. (My Powerpoint set includes slides with direct quotes from the Climategate materials.)

- Moving on to the FOIA emails from GISS, it is interesting to note that their HQ, in New York City, happens to be in the same building as the famous restaurant where Jerry Seinfeld dined with George, Kramer, and Elaine. (It was never revealed what Kramer did for a living – perhaps he was the chief analyst at GISS :^)
- The most revealing email from GISS is reproduced above. It was from Makiko Sato, PhD to her Boss, GISS-Director James Hansen, PhD, detailing the seven different analyses and comparisons of US mean temperatures for 1934 and 1998. The later year was the hottest in the 1990’s, so it was, let us say “inconvenient” that 1934, according to data published by GISS in 1999, was over 0.5ºC warmer. If Global Warming was almost entirely due to recent human activities, and was accelerating, how could the 1930 have been warmer?
- Just as the Hockey Stick made the Medieval Warm Period disappear, GISS tried mightily to make 1934 cooler than 1998, but only succeeded in reducing the 0.5ºC lead into a dead heat. Notice that the 0.5ºC “adjustment” is more than half the supposed total warming since 1880.
- I would like to trust the work of taxpayer-supported science, but, it seems, we must rely on President Reagan’s advice regarding the old Soviet Union, “Trust, but verify!”
D. What We Can and Should Do – Energy policy (cap and trade scam vs carbon tax). Efficiency, conservation, “green“, and renewable sources.
- I am quite sure that Global Warming is REAL (i.e. the mean temperature of the Surface has increased by 0.5 to 0.6ºC since 1880) but, most of that increase is due to Natural Cycles over which we humans have no control.
- However, the warming is PARTLY Due to Rising CO2 Levels and human actions are PART of the Cause.
- There is not and never has been any real danger of catastrophe or even of serious net detriment to human life due to increased CO2 levels. Indeed, modest increases in these parameters are most likely a net benefit.
- However, we Skeptics have to be realistic in the current political climate. Like it or not (and I do not like it) the official climate “Team” (i.e., the “Hockey Team” :^) has convinced the political and media establishment, and much of the population that something has to be done. We cannot fight something with nothing, so we need something more than a passive policy of do nothing because nothing is necessary.
- Therefore, I favor reduction of the carbon footprint by efficiency, conservation, recycling, and so on, plus the introduction, if and when economically practical of so-called “Green” energy, including Nuclear, Water, Wind, Biomass and, particularly, “Clean” Coal.
- If nothing else, these will do minimum harm and, if successful, will reduce US dependence upon foreign oil. We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.
- As for the Cap and Trade scam, it is a Politician’s Delight that rewards powerful Interests, wrecks the economy, and will NOT significantly reduce carbon emissions. It seems to me that some countries and US states that have adopted Cap and Trade have realized their folly and are backing away from it.
- You may be surprised that I favor some version of a straight Carbon Tax, collected at the mine, well, and port, with the proceeds returned on an equal basis to citizens and legal residents. Yes, James Hansen and (pardon the expression Ralph Nader) also favor it, but, so do conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer, the Wall Street Journal, and others on the right. My support for this tax is based on what I wrote above, “We cannot fight something with nothing” and “We have spent, and continue to sacrifice too much blood and treasure protecting our access, and that of our allies, to energy from unstable regions of the world.”
I’m interested in your critique and comments. (My Powerpoint presentation is available [click here] for you to use and adapt as you wish..)
_Jim says:
May 31, 2011 at 7:41 pm
Richard M says on May 31, 2011 at 6:59 am
Ira, you have missed the most important item. The cooling effect of GHGs. What do you think causes the atmosphere to cool during the night? …
Ahem.
It is the surface of the earth (blades of grass, surface of cars, concrete, etc) that cools, not the air.
So, you believe that when it cools from 90°F during the day to around 50°F at night in a spring time desert location that the air temperature did not cool?
Sorry, does not compute.
Ira Glickstein, PhD says:
June 1, 2011 at 9:58 am
Richard M says:
May 31, 2011 at 6:59 am
Ira, you have missed the most important item. The cooling effect of GHGs. What do you think causes the atmosphere to cool during the night? …
I don’t know why it cools during the night where you live, but here in Florida, things cool down at night because the Earth rotates and the Sun no longer shines on us :^)
So, the heat vanishes from the atmosphere without any mechanism to make it disappear. Interesting.
Generally, the Surface and Atmosphere, and everything else above absolute zero, radiate energy as a function of T^4. So, quite naturally, when Solar energy in no longer coming in, the Surface continues to radiate energy to the Atmosphere and the Atmosphere to Space, and both cool down. The role of GHGs is to re-radiate some of the energy in the Atmosphere back to the Surface, which reduces the rate of nighttime cooling. Unless you are on a strange planet long ago and far away, I suspect it works that way where you live. :^)
I see, GHGs only radiate energy in one direction … “back to the surface”.
Yes, I can see we live on different planets. Mine is Earth, what is the name of yours?
Sorry Ira, but you missed the point completely. Open your mind a little and maybe you will understand. The atmosphere is heated during the day from both the Sun and the surface. The energy is constantly being radiated away and it is NOT just the toward the surface. The GHGs enhance the radiation of energy that is already in the atmosphere for the exact same reasons they can block outgoing radiation from the surface. Good absorbers are good radiators.
Not all energy in the atmosphere got there from the LWIR emitted by surface. Once you realize this you will understand that GHGs have both a warming AND a cooling effect. Why do you ignore the cooling effect?
For some reason, I cannot post a longer (few paragraphs) comment on this thread.
Every time I read Dr. Glickstein’s articles, I feel that something is very, very wrong. This “something” is hiding behind his seemingly indisputable, scientific-sounding arguments. This “something” is his general approach to the question of human influence on the environment.
Yes, I know that human activity can be detrimental to the environment. Back in the USSR, I remember our “cement forest” near Siberian town of Berdsk, where every step in the grass produced a small cloud of cement dust. I remember “green skies” of Cherepovets, the Soviet hub of copper industry. Kremlin “managed to disappear” the whole Aral sea, and only the revolt of some of the most loyal Soviet scientists prevented Moscow from going ahead with their wackiest project of all, that of turning great Siberian rivers back into the Central Asia by nuclear explosions.
But everyone who grew up in the totalitarian police state, knows how clean and green are fields and forests of the Western countries, in comparison. Clean and green — not as a result of some ideology being pushed by the government policies but, on the contrary, as a result of the existence of private property, as simple as that. Government’s meddling is the most dangerous activity not only where economy and culture are concerned but in ecological terms as well.
So, what is wrong with Dr. Glickstein’s approach? The not-so-latent assumption of guilt, among other things. Western civilization should not be portrayed as guilty of ecological sins, it should be proud of its achievements in the area of environmental protection. Also, Dr. Glickstein talks about human influences on global climatological parameters as if they can be calculated or estimated with any degree of certainty.
But the truth of the matter is that our science is far from being able to produce any reliable estimate of the global human influence on climate, given the numerous and complex, mutually counteracting feedback factors, meteorological, geological and biological processes, not to mention the dependency of Earth’s climate on the processes in the surrounding space, the research of which is literally in embryonic state.
Finally, I don’t want to be labelled or categorized. Dr. Glickstein’s addiction to using various awkward names, such as “disbelievers,” “lukewarmers,” and “skeptics,” is disconcerting, incorrect, and slightly insulting. I am not a “disbeliever.” I am not a “skeptic” even. I am just an honest thinking human being, facing the obvious huge lie.
So, is Dr. Glickstein’s way of talking about global warming correct? It is, perhaps, for him, and for others who beguile themselves with honorific titles, elitist approach, and certain amount of detachment from reality leading to simplistic, formulaic classifications and conclusions. But for real people like me it’s not the way to talk about anything.
Ira,
“So, mkelly, although Mt. Everest does not get much of the reduction of Solar energy Input due to Atmospheric absorption of Solar short-wave radiation, it gets even less of the Atmospheric “greenhouse effect” since so little of the Atmosphere and GHGs are between it and Space. In short, long-wave radiation from the Surface at Mt. Everest has to pass through hardly any of the Atmosphere to get out to Space. That, my friend, is why Mt. Everest is colder than Daytona Beach. Got it?”
340 W/m^2 = e(SB)T^4 let e = 1 for incoming solar
T= 278 K top of Everest (it probably gets near 1100 W/m^2 in mid June)
average T on Everest -73 C , 200 K
Being a well mixed gas there is still thousands of feet of CO2 above it.
Average Daytona Beach temperature is 60 F winter and 78 F summer. Call it 69 F year round. 69 F (293 K)
Your explanation seems to say that “back radiation” is more powerful than direct sunlight.
But I disagree as I think pressure and water vapor are the reason. You allude to the lapse rate in your full explanation to which I think you could have stopped there. Using a lapse rate of 9.8 and an altitude of 8.848 km the change is 87 degrees. Almost fully explaning the 293 to 200 K difference in temperature.
Ira Glickstein, PhD says:
June 1, 2011 at 7:31 am
Latitude, I do not get your point.
==============================================
Obviously or you wouldn’t feel about a carbon tax – gas tax.
You’re are not only comfortably urban but not old enough. Public transportation, walking, riding a bike, etc is doable for someone urban or big city. It is not doable for the vast majority of this country.
The largest demographic in this country is getting to be retirement age, and a very large portion of those people are not urban, they are rural. On a fixed income, and can not and will not buy a new little “Precious” car. They are driving cars that take gas, and will continue to repair those cars because it’s cheaper than buying a new “Precious”.
What you are proposing, is driving up the cost of everything for those people. They paid your way.
So yeah, this is a “Kumbaya, group hug” moment for you.
Stop and think about the unintended consequences.
I live way south of you, on a rock, in the middle of the ocean.
It won’t work for me at all. I take a boat to do almost everything.
Ira Glickstein:
I just want to say Kudos for sticking around and doing your best to respond to comments. I may not agree with you, but I must admire the professional character demonstrated. Thanks GK
Intentional misread? At some point the air ‘cools’ there is no dispute about that … it is the method by which it cools which would seem to be in contention.
BTW, this in no way is part of a belief system as it is an observed fact and not in dispute as a ‘scientific frontier’. It may be proved by easy an experiment conducted in your own back (or front) yard with the simplest of equipment – an example is the experiment conducted by A G Foster and I quote from above:
Reiterating, it is the surface (literally: things on the surface like grass, tree leaves, roofs, sand etc), which cool at night (via IR radiation directly into space) and being in contact with the air then cools the air.
Direct IR radiation from ‘air’ occurs from only two molecules that are capable of capturing or radiating IR energy (since these molecules are capable of vibrating/rotating etc. in modes that correspond with wavelengths in and about the LWIR spectrum) : CO2 and H20. See Vibrational modes of molecules (pdf file) for vibrational mode and corresponding wavenumbers.
But, those two molecules present in the boundary layer airmass do not dominate cooling in the boundary layer airmass (the boundary layer is the air layer meeting the surface of the earth see Ref. 4) as surface IR cooling does.
At this point it would be good to consult a good college text on meteorology, e.g. Aguado and Burt (Ref 1) or C. Donald Ahrens (Ref 2) and begin to become familiar with atmospheric physics, particularly the radiative part. If you want a heavy duty read strictly dealing with the radiative physics, take a gander at Zdunkowski, Trautmann and Bott (Ref 3).
Refs:
1. Understanding Weather and Climate
2. Meteorology Today: An Introduction to Weather, Climate, and the Environment
3. Radiation in the Atmosphere: A Course in Theoretical Meteorology
Also: http://ebookee.org/Radiation-in-the-Atmosphere-A-Course-in-Theoretical-Meteorology_325798.html
4. Formal definition: “Atmospheric Boundary Layer Structure”
.
Ira. There is no such thing as a revenue-neutral tax unless those who administers it donate their time and energy to collect the tax. What you advocate is a tax to pick winners and losers, to control outcome and give more power to elected officials which will use it to choke pathway on the individual’s economic success. It’s a pay to play mentality at the expense of consumer/tax payer. I’ll have no part of it and will fight to defeat any type of CO2 tax.
old construction worker says:
June 1, 2011 at 2:38 pm
Ira. There is no such thing as a revenue-neutral tax unless those who administers it donate their time and energy to collect the tax. What you advocate is a tax to pick winners and losers, to control outcome and give more power to elected officials which will use it to choke pathway on the individual’s economic success. It’s a pay to play mentality at the expense of consumer/tax payer. I’ll have no part of it and will fight to defeat any type of CO2 tax.
======================================================
Amen……
Ira is in a university environment, urban, and insulated from the real world. 😉
As soon as the road is paid for, we will get rid of the toll booths.
Social Security is safe, unless we put it in the general fund and spend it.
All the money from the lottery will go to education, unless we use it to bail out DOT.
and on and on…………..
Dr Glickstein:
Good presentation. Hope the rude comments some make here are taken in stride.
A few quibbles:
1. I agree with Chapman far above here: the crux of the whole issue is positive versus negative feedbacks. The Earth’s climate must be dominated by negative feedbacks given its stability for eons.
2. It is possible to construct a system that has the Earth’s climate driven by a large external forcer (eg solar changes), have CO2 levels lag by 800 years, and yet have CO2 contribute some positive feedback to the system. It would require some large inertia/momentum in the system—–this role could be played by the oceans as a huge heat sink, which in fact it is. The primary driver starts the temp up, but the ocean as a buffer slows the rise. CO2 is outgassed progressively, and helps the temp rise. The primary driver starts into a negative phase. It would take a long time before the temp of the system falls enough to stop the net outgassing of the CO2, so even as temps fall, CO2 can rise. I do not “believe” in this, but consider it plausible.
3. In your presentations, the role of the oceans and their currents and cycles as buffers and distorters of the signal of the primary forcers of climate change should be mentioned up front. This is the main reason, I think, that the “science” of climate change is so difficult. If it were just energy in/energy out/greenhouse effects/and surface temps, the system would be easy to successfully model. The bufferings, lags, and oscillations of the oceans are so complex as to remove this “science” into the realm of chaotic systems that cannot, even in theory, be tightly modelled (as defined by the ability to accurately predict weather and climate.)
4. Do not give up on the truth winning out over time. The Berlin Wall fell. “Communist” China now embraces free enterprise more strongly than the US. Amazing things can happen.
KW
_Jim says:
June 1, 2011 at 2:37 pm
Richard M says on June 1, 2011 at 12:31 pm:
_Jim: “It is the surface of the earth (blades of grass, surface of cars, concrete, etc) that cools, not the air.”
Richard M: So, you believe that when it cools from 90°F during the day to around 50°F at night in a spring time desert location that the air temperature did not cool?
Sorry, does not compute.
Intentional misread? At some point the air ‘cools’ there is no dispute about that … it is the method by which it cools which would seem to be in contention.
I was just following what appeared to be your intentional misread of my statement. I’m not discounting the surface radiative cooling. I’m simply stating there is another form of cooling as well. The same GHGs that intercept surface radiation are also energized by the heat from the atmosphere itself. When it radiates the energy it gained from the atmosphere it is cooling the atmosphere.
So, your reference to GHGs radiative cooling of the air is exactly my point. Did you realize that? I assume you are not claiming that the atmosphere cannot energize GHGs, so you must be claiming the effect is minimal. But, why would GHGs have a minimal effect in one sense and a catastrophic effect in another.
Yes, HankHenry, the heat energy is mostly stored in the oceans, but the “surface temperature” is officially recorded at about six feet above the surface. So, when we talk about mean temperatures, it is of the air at about six feet up.
Point A 2. “To maintain a relatively constant mean temperature, Output Energy must equal Input Energy, so the Earth System must emit about 240 W/m^2 out to Space, which it does.”
At the same time Earth System doesn’t care about maintaining a mean temperature. From the point of energy conservation it has no problem building energy up to reach the same temperature as the sun.
It is the Second Law that gives directions to the thermodynamic processes in the Earth System, and that means the only goal of the system is to disperse energy mainly by generating heat (in the atmosphere), turning liquid into vapour and degenerating radiation into lower frequencies.
It does this by using all it’s coupled subsystems with in the first line evaporation, conduction, convection and radiation and the result will be the lowest temperature possible (at any given location).
If a restriction in the radiation output would occur, this would provide the driving force for the subsystems to counteract the possible shift.
Let’s look at Le Chatelier’s principle “if a chemical system at equilibrium experiences a change in concentration, temperature, volume, or partial pressure, then the equilibrium shifts to counteract the imposed change and a new equilibrium is established” or in general ” Any change in status quo prompts an opposing reaction in the responding system.”
Don’t think this is just some chemical thing because it is all about thermodynamics, all about the Second Law. The origin is the same as the in physics known principle of least action (first by Maupertuis) that comes down to the fact that nature desires a state of minimal energy (maximal dispersion).
It is the basis for many more principles or laws like for instance Henry’s law, that can be used to look into the balance between CO2 in the ocean and in the atmosphere. One of the many different balances in the Earth System ruled by the Second Law, all working together to get the same result: the lowest energy.
The not so wise IPCC clan invented a non-physical concept of least action principles and named them positive feedbacks, that do not create opposing action, but create amplifying action. A case of bad physics.
Well, MarkW, although officials are usually mum, and the media has been known to obscure history, the Iraq wars, which I supported at the time and still think were necessary, were about oil. The operation that deposed Saddam was originally called “Operation Iraqi Liberation”(OIL) and former Fed Chairman, Alan Greenspan, said it was “largely about oil”.
In his 2007 book, Greenspan wrote (LA Times story: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-oil17sep17,1,553323.story?coll=la-news-a_section) says:
“The Iraq war is largely about oil … I’m saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows. … Whatever their publicized angst over Saddam Hussein’s ‘weapons of mass destruction,’ American and British authorities were also concerned about violence in an area that harbors a resource indispensable for the functioning of the world economy.”
In a news conference (the text of which was available in 2007 on the WHITE HOUSE WEBSITE, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030324-4.html, but is not available now) Ari Fleisher, the President’s Press Secretary said, way back on March 24, 2003,
“The President this morning has spoken with three foreign leaders. He began with Prime Minister Blair, where the two discussed the ongoing aspects of Operation Iraqi liberation“. [Emphasis added]
See http://tvpclub.blogspot.com/2007/09/operation-iraqi-liberation-oil.html for what I wrote about it in 2007.
Ira: Your presentation was very good and no doubt helpful to the audience. But like many others I can’t disagree more strongly with your recommendations.
There is simply no carbon-neutral energy alternative to fossil fuels save nuclear,, which is already so overregulated in the US that new reactors are prohibitively expensive. Wind and solar simply cannot provide the needed power, not today, not ever.
And after you demonstrate the benign nature of CO2, you then advocate a carbon tax? This not only flouts logic, but common sense. Such a tax would surly have negative economic ramifications, most obviously inflation, which is already in the rise. And like all taxes of this nature, it would never go away. All this for a cure worse than the disease. Thanks doc!
JPeden, the Powerpoint is available for anyone in the world to freely download at https://sites.google.com/site/bigira/climate-related-ppt/TESP-Climate-May2011.ppt?attredirects=0&d=1
If you open that .ppt file with Powerpoint, you will find Notes under each one that you could print out in what they call “Notes View”. That will give you an image of each slide with notes under each. I look forward to any and all serious discussion ofmy arguments. So far, most of the discussion has focused on the lower half of one of my charts. Of course, anyone who wants to may delete that chart, or simply edit it to keep only the top part that debunks the Cap & Trade scam. Good luck!
I don’t think we’re on quite the same wavelength, but continue to read and contribute here on WUWT.
I do sincerely recommend those books and references above in my previous post:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/05/30/skeptic-strategy-for-talking-about-global-warming/#comment-671984
Maybe they’ll allow clearer picture to be developed in the mind on the processes/characteristics of radiative heat/thermal/IR energy transfer …
Cheers.
.
MattG (and all you adiabatic compression fans) that statement is only true when the gas is initially compressed.
Take an air-filled cylinder with an air-tight piston. Compress the air to half the volume. At first, it will be warmer than room temperature. Then, it will cool to room temperature and remain compressed. Therefore, compression (high density of air per se) is not a cause of its higher temperature.
Great question Fit _Nick but we’ve been assured by people who ave done the calculations that warmth from the hot core as well as radioactive decay in and on the Earth only add a fraction of a percent to the Surface temperatures, and may thereefore be ignored in discussions at the level of this posting.