Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I guess having electricity when you need it is sooooo last century … UK families will have to get used to “only using power when it was available”. That constant electricity at home was dangerous anyhow, the unending hum of the wires can drive a man so insane that the only way to cure him is to make him head of the National Grid …
UK persons … comments?
w.
[Update, for those who believe the above is a faked article, I had Green Sand send me a photo and another scan of the actual newspaper. ~ ctm]
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Well if you need to see half the problem the take a look at the speakers list. As you may guess “balance” is not likely. Don’t laugh too loudly though. Seems that over in the US you have NYC taking energy providers to court for the criminal act of … providing NYC with power. La la land for all. US included.
I’m thinking that some time in the far future there will be Cockroach scientists digging up “western” cultures from the fossil record and wondering why they died hungry and alone in the cold and dark.Eventually some really bright “roach” will work out that “energy” and “food production” were outlawed because the dipsticks had taken over “law making”. Carbon Dioxide, the very base of the food chain, was outlawed as a pollutant and everything else just followed. Nobody could stop it and the lights just went out.
Complete fantasy my friend … where are you going to find a machine (idle or otherwise in the UK.:~)
Our economy is built on borrowed money and non-jobs for everyone. As Booker has pointed out, we have more that 50% of the working population of the UK employed by HMG. You don’t have to be an economist to see that that can’t continue (without more borrowing).
WILLIS FOR PRESIDENT 2012.
Zeke Hausfather says:
March 4, 2011 at 1:26 pm
I’d blame this one mostly on poor reporting (coupled with poor phrasing on Holliday’s part). If you listen to the original interview, its clearer that he is talking about the ability of a smart grid to use various demand-response strategies (equipment cycling, etc.) coupled with a time of use price signal to flatten out load variations. We’re quickly implementing something similar here in the U.S.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9410000/9410485.stm
You are exactly correct. Here is what is happening in Vermont.
http://recovery.vermont.gov/blog/unite
The project is called eEnergy Vermont because smart grid means using digital technology to make better use of energy resources than was ever possible before. For consumers the smart grid means better information about our energy use and much better control over it including substantial opportunities to save money by using electricity when it is cheap and shunning it when it is expensive as well as better reliability. For utilities the smart grid means an opportunity to cooperate with their customers to reduce expensive buys of peak electricity, avoid the need to build as much generation and transmission capability as would otherwise be necessary to deal with escalating peaks (the grid must be sized for peaks), and lower operational costs which include but go way beyond the obvious cost of sending someone out to read your meter. The distributed small sources of renewable power popping up around the state are better used and therefore more valuable if plugged into a smart grid. For the country a smarter grid means reduced reliance on foreign oil and lower CO2 emissions as well as a stronger economy because of lower energy costs.
I’m an Australian who has lived in the UK since 1997, does that count?
The truth is, as Lord Monckton said, Europe is no longer free.
The undemocratic European Union is now the defacto government of Europe, and the EU is a national socialist state founded on the big lie of catastrophic anthropomorphic global warming.
Think the NAZIs all died in the Nuremberg trials? You might find this interesting.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100076404/why-do-i-call-them-eco-nazis-because-they-are-eco-nazis/
So expect more green mania, as the authoritarian tyrants of Europe assert their authority, justified by the “need” to combat climate change.
eadler says:
March 4, 2011 at 4:51 pm
It seems that you and your fellow travellers in doubting the authenticity of the article have been right royally put straight by a number of contributors.
It might add to the picture if I tell you that the Barclays, a pair of reclusive brothers that live on a small island in the tax haven of the Channel Islands, are much given to accepting part of the Renewables Obligation levy in the form of payment for huge advertisements in their paper the DT, which praise the work of the Carbon Trust, a govt. body that promotes the warming nonsense and villifies CO2.
In this way the Govt uses our taxes, for tax is what it is, to brainwash us into accepting …..the tax!
Returning to your scepticism ( of this post) I am impressed that none of you trolls were prepared to accept this story without a full examination of it’s veracity.
I do however find it somewhat puzzling that such inquiring forensic minds are unable to see that a woolly hat has been slipped over their eyes for some considerable time.
I think my post may have been misdirected
How UK-citizens can put up with this, is a miracle. Too bad this is what we are heading for, in all of Europe. Who would have guessed that the UK would lead the fall of a continent. Britain ruled the waives once. They opposed to the influence of the EU beyond belief and managed to stay out of the €uro. Now they kneel for the green imposters, who betray them with their junk science and lure them into a lifestyle of the Dark Ages (literally and figuratively).
“We make your life miserable” and they really seem to get away with it.
Unbelievable. Where is the emergency exit?
I’ve read quite a few of the comments on this item and as a daily reader of WUWT and the Telegraph can confirm that Willis is correct on every item. I was so mad when I read the article I subjected my wife to a ten minute unprintable tirade. I’ve looked at the annual accounts of National Grid PLC for 2009 & 2010 and find that this C.E.O.( Circular Excreting Orifice) ‘ar..hole’ for short, was remunerated in 2009 with £2.206,000 and in 2010 by £2,273,000 so I suppose he can afford to run his own bloody generator. I’m now even bloody madder
The Daily Telegraph article appears to have gone viral. Even the China news is commenting on it. It is everywhere. Just look at the 400 responses here. It is indicative of the concern for power supplies everywhere. And that is why I have 15 kw, 4 kw and 1 kw generators on my farm. I can’t afford to be without power. One is liquid natural gas and two are gasoline and I can power a others with a diesel inverters. I hooked my parents up with a generator years ago and a lot of folks in Ontario and Quebec have emergency gen sets after the ice storm a few years back. I am guessing the Angleterres will soon be out buying gen sets for their townhouses in the near future. Most of the farm people I know in England already have gen sets for back up as they know the system is unreliable.
RockyRoad, “However, relying on wind and solar is a step backwards–you’re subjecting man to the whims and vagaries of nature; man is no longer in control.”
Yes, yes I know wind and solar are not economically viable or reliable, I am not arguing that. I am arguing taking what someone said drastically out of context.
JohnH, “Sorry but ‘consume when available’ means it will be unavailable at other times, you seem to be saying when short of power the price will go up but still be available, well what if you cannot afford it, how many people will need to die if Nov/Dec 2010 is repeated when the comsumption was maxed out and the Wind Turbines were deadly still. How much a Kwh will it be then.”
That is more likely poor phrasing by him because if that is what he meant then he would not have also said “…and when it is available cheaply“. I interpreted his comment exactly how I said. A responsible journalist would ask him if he thinks there will be NO POWER at certain times before making such irresponsible statements as (The days of permanently available electricity may be coming to an end). I suspect anyone that asks will be greatly embarrassed. Look you are missing my point, I am NOT endorsing worthless “renewable energy” I have a problem with gross distortions of what someone actually said and meant.
Wayne Delbeke, “The Daily Telegraph article appears to have gone viral.”
This is what I am afraid of and now they have something new to make fun of us with, embarrassing.
C**t
Everyone commenting on this site are truly out of touch: It could just be that peak oil and peak everything have finally arrived. You have to be really deluded to not be able to look around and see an overwhelming pattern-that this world has more and more people and less and less of EVERYTHING, including oil. The whole world shall be powering down soon enough.
REPLY: and that will make you happy, Won’t it ? -A
The first shutdown of power and/or major blackout shall see it’s first fullscale country-wide riot leading into fullscale civil war.
Take away people’s heat, running water, and spoil the food in their fridges that they purchased with their hard earned money, etc, and the politicians will be first-hand witnesses to the animals that most of us are capable of being in times of despair.
I referenced Willis post over at Greentech Media earlier in the week in the comment section of an energy storage article:www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/compressed-air-energy-storage-beats-batteries/
Over here in CA we had our brown outs (and rather high electrical costs due in large part to our friends at Enron manipulating the energy market) early in the last decade. In fact our energy crisis lead to the recall of Governor Davis (the Terminator lead the state until our recent election which brought Governor Brown back into office). Governor Brown is on record as supporting a recently passed law (AB2514) that requires our electrical generators and grid management team to evaluate the role that energy storage can play in our electrical system to ensure our grid remains reliable as we move towards our 33%RES for the electrical market.
Like the UK we are installing smart meters at a rapid rate here in CA (I have had a semi-smart meter since 2006 when I went solar with a 6.12 KW PV system). From what I have been able to decipher from PG&E’s pubic general rate case documentation- presented to the CPUC- it looks like dynamic pricing will be the norm as we move towards more renewables over the next decade. That way PG&E’s customers can decide if they want to pay premium pricing at peak demand times or curtail their usage.
I happen to be on the the same grid as my local hospital, so I don’t normally have to worry about back up power for our little homestead- which does have a well. Depending on how the dynamic pricing out here in CA goes I will move to a generator for back up power.
Ruby, “Everyone commenting on this site are truly out of touch: It could just be that peak oil and peak everything have finally arrived. You have to be really deluded to not be able to look around and see an overwhelming pattern-that this world has more and more people and less and less of EVERYTHING, including oil. The whole world shall be powering down soon enough.”
Nonsense,
Myth: The World is Running Out of Oil (Video) (5min) (ABC News)
‘Peak Oil’ Is a Waste of Energy (The New York Times)
Peak Oil and other threatening peaks—Chimeras without substance (PDF)
(Energy Policy, Volume 38, Issue 11, pp. 6566-6569, November 2010)
– Marian Radetzki
“The Peak Oil movement has widely spread its message about an impending peak in global oil production, caused by an inadequate resource base. On closer scrutiny, the underlying analysis is inconsistent, void of a theoretical foundation and without support in empirical observations. Global oil resources are huge and expanding, and pose no threat to continuing output growth within an extended time horizon. In contrast, temporary or prolonged supply crunches are indeed plausible, even likely, on account of growing resource nationalism denying access to efficient exploitation of the existing resource wealth.“
Ruby above, I’ve never read so much crap.
Check out the coal reserves of Queensland, Australia.
Enough coal at present world consumption to last another 3000 years, yes, Three Thousand.
And while you are at it, check out the Queensland natural gas reserves, described by the Queensland government as “inexhaustible” !
No links for you, do your own research instead of writing rubbish here.
@Poptech
You seem to have glommed onto a rather poor turn of phrase in the opening paragraph: “The days of permanently available electricity may be coming to an end …”
But consider the headline:
– and the actual quoted content in the article, viz:
which was taken verbatim from the BBC 4 “Today” program.
Now, I could be mistaken (although in this instance I doubt that I am) but the opposite of “constant” is “intermittent” – a word which is not inconsistent with “not permanently available”.
In my books this is an indication that, according to Holliday, citizens in the U.K. will be looking forward (or more appropriately, perhaps, “looking backward”) to a future of intermittent electricity which will require that they “change their behaviour”.
YMMV, but to my mind this is not a good thing.
As for the rest of the article (and the fact that no author is listed), my guess would be that a junior at the Telegraph (whose work does not yet warrant a byline) might have contacted Holliday (or read other newspaper accounts) and got some additional quotes (that were not made during the BBC interview).
Anyway, Atomic Hairdryer (March 5, 2011 at 4:35 am) has now posted a scan of the print article (in case you missed it):
http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/3773/telegraph.jpg
Interestingly, the article immediately beneath that which you continue to question also lacks a byline.
As for “why it is not online”, who knows?! Perhaps your question would be better directed towards the Telegraph – the publishers of which are not obliged (well, not by any convention of which I’m aware) to place every article from their print edition in their online edition (or vice versa for that matter).
[[[ Ruby says:
March 5, 2011 at 3:45 pm
Everyone commenting on this site are truly out of touch: It could just be that peak oil and peak everything have finally arrived. … ]]]
When you find yourself freezing to death in your own home during some future winter, you’ll gladly run to the mine for a bucket of coal. That will put YOU back in touch. There is no supply problem worldwide with our coal commodity. Watch how a little shivering will change your attitude about that… real fast.
Alan Simpson says: “I will be honest, I am in the UK, as I walk to my local pub on a night I glance up and admire how many lamp posts we have, if what that article describes became reality there would be a Civil Servant or Politician hanging from every one, fingers crossed.
Here in the US, in the great Southwest, we have a saying for times like these: “Get a rope”. I’ve been looking at lamp posts, also. They are a lot taller than they used to be. Going to take some long rope.
However, at times like this (and I hope that someone from across the pond can be forgiven to quoting Shakespeare to Englishmen):
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,–
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.
Don’t let the bastards get you down. You are meant for much greater things than these petty hooligans are dishing out.
David L says:
March 5, 2011 at 2:05 am
Does that mean you can’t charge your electric car anytime you want?
Listening to his address to the RAE (more than one hour including questions) that is very much the impression I got, and it seems understandable.
I think that in terms of useful energy (at the wheels) the UK filling station network has a similar order of capactiy as the National Grid. If we all decided to fill up at once we would have extensive queueing at the pumps, the same if we all owned electric vehicles and we all decided to charge them at the same moment.
Now the first case, fillings stations, we expect that to happen, in the second case, plugging in a vehicle, we would not expect that to happen, he seemed to be saying that we will have to get accustomed to the idea that it will happen.
The equivilant “charging rate” at a petrol pump is I believed measured in MW, (not including the idle time at the pump), but this is a lot bigger than typical domestic power ratings (12-25KW) for everything. This should give some idea of the scale of the problem of charging a largely electric national vehicle fleet.
Residential substations (not pole transformers) seem to vary from around 350kVa (~350kW with an ideal load factor) to around 1-2MW, but most seem to be at the smaller end.
So most residential substations are rated below the equivilent charging rate of a single petrol pump (if they did nothing but charge vehicles). Over the course of a day a substation could charge a lot of vehicles but not all the local vehicles quickly and at once.
Now these are rough figures pulled together in some haste but I think give some sense of the efficacy of filling stations when it comes to topping up vehicles.
The following wiki figures should be good for a guide for petrol:
9.7kWh/Litre
36.6kWh/US Gallon
A petrol pump with a 5G/min flow rate is equivalent to ~11MW
In terms of useful electric equivalent motive power one could reasonably divide that by 3 giving around 4MW, so you do not have to have a huge number of people filling up simultaneously to be in the GW power station range.
There is one reading of what Mr Holliday had to say that runs like: sorry but we can’t economically build a network that will rival the efficacy of the filling station network.
I do not think my numbers are hugely out but if anyone has better please post them.
Arthur Dent says:
March 5, 2011 at 12:45 pm
The act of a true gentleman, sir. My hat is off to you.
w.
eadler says:
Use of washers, driers, and charging electric cars will cost less if it is done off peak.
Attn., eadlers of the world, since we know you only want to “help” save the world and humanity, after a fashion alleged by one who says he is “partners with God” to therefore be perhaps somewhat like “making the rough places plane”, some important feedback that you urgently need to know has just arrived via Shirley McClain and Joan Baez’s Channelling Network, concerning the responses of both Gaia and Allah to your, the U.K’s, and Vermont’s apparently somewhat feckless attempts to engineer Social Justice’s promised low cost, perfectly Equalized, Flat Lined Utopia.
Shirley and Joan, one with Gaia, say these various fledgling responses, ostensibly in order to reduce Her “fever” and justly redress Humanity’s unsustainable Ecological Overshoot via meting out “social justice”, are all well and good, but that She will refuse to open the Horn of Plenty until the obscene standard of living inequality between the rich and poor nations causing CO2=CAGW is but a deathly yellowing within the eyeballs of any remaining Capitalist Oppressors and Despoilers.
Meanwhile, they also have Allah saying He holds firm to His own more stringent Dictates, by reaffirming that He will still not rescind His demands for Holy Purification of Humanity and the World until everyone on Earth proves they are not Infidels by committing suicide in order to kill Infidels, although a simple suicide will, therefore, suffice. [What He said about Osama bin Laden’s hypocrisy along these lines would only rupture more eardrums.]
Therefore, eadlers of the world, apparently there is still much work for you to do towards achieving your Equalitarian Utopia on Earth via producing a qualitatively perfect Flat Line of Equality, although apparently there is still no quanitative limit on how low you can go in order to achieve the perfection of equal flatness, and thus of Social Justice.
But even if it is achieved, say, by your envisioned Central Ministry of Electric Justice’s “smart grid” applications to produce a perfectly Flat Line of Electric Equality – with, of course, an in home Electric Chair included – and then equally abetted eventually by Obamacare’s own “complete life” and “end of life care” = “completed life” societal worth metric vs the cost of made-scarce resources because of the various “peaks”, as envisioned by Obama’s own Dr. Zeke Emmanuel to achieve its own perfect Flat Line of Equality – not to be confused with Death Panels, “because we say so” – Allah will still probably require you all to leave Earth anyway!
Mr Holliday will be very popular with the wife and children, all wanting dinner, and being told “you will have to wait until the power comes on”.
Electric heat? No problem just wear a hat, coat and gloves to bed. You’ll probably be too hungry too sleep, so what does a bit of cold matter?
Even better, when you are away from the house, as soon as the power goes out every housebreaker in the neighborhood can go to work. With no burgular alarms or security cameras to cause problems.
Those riding in elevators in high-rise buildings will especially like this. No problem, “you will have to wait until the power comes on”.
Mr Holliday will be very popular around the office, when everyone sits down to start work, only to find the computers and telephones without power, “you will have to wait until the power comes on”.
Mr Holliday will also be very popular when people are walking the streets at night, only to have the lights go off. He will no doubt he would be very popular with his own wife or daughters if they are out walking. No problem, just stay where you are, out on the dark street, “until the power comes on”.
I’ve life in the tropics, those countries where the power cannot be relied upon. That is fine in the tropics. There is a reason people are laid back in the tropics. If the power fails, it is no big deal. Outside the tropics, if the power fails, people die. So, over many generation, people in cold climates have developed different attitudes and lifestyles than those people living in the tropics. Mr. Holliday’s policies are likely to kill many people in the UK. Doing his bit to solve the population problem.
Sounds like it is time for everyone in the UK to install a coal bin. Lots of houses probably still have them from before the war, boarded over. You can probably buy 10 tons of lignite for 100 pounds, more then enough for the winter. Way cheaper than electric heat and the ash makes a fine grit for the walkways when it snows. You’ve had a lot of that the past few winters in the UK. Global warming no doubt.
hro001, “Now, I could be mistaken (although in this instance I doubt that I am) but the opposite of “constant” is “intermittent” – a word which is not inconsistent with “not permanently available”. ”
That is my point, he is not quoted as using either word (constant or intermittent) let alone ‘permanent’. That is IMO a gross distortion of what he said and not helpful to the debate. I did not hear him state that there would be times of the day or year when you would have no electricity available or “intermittent power” like a third world nation rather that the “smart grid” will adjust rates based on total power availability vs total demand. Yes I agree we should be using whatever is available, coal, natural gas and nuclear instead of wind and solar but that is a different argument then what it being implied with this article.
In US since Van Buren they say OK when something is OK so now if it wouldn’t they could say UK.