UPDATE: 2/22 I’ve solved the problem, I’ll have a complete report in a day or two to help others that might be up against what I was. I’ll offer a complete “how to”. – Anthony
This is just a short note to point out that if you have an opportunity to buy a new PC or laptop, demand Windows 32 bit OS.
Promises made by Microsoft of 32 bit application compatibility are blatantly false (at least in my case). After two days of pulling my hair out with Windows 7 64 bit Home Premium, then buying the “anytime upgrade” to “professional” which still didn’t solve the problem. My problem: a very expensive broadcast multimedia program that demands 32 bit operation. Yes I’ve tried XP mode and Virtual PC, still fail. I’m faced now with:
1. Returning my new HP laptop and telling them to shove it into the refurb bin.
2. Buying the full retail version of Windows 7 32 professional, making my laptop overpriced.
3. Driving to Redmond and giving Ballmer a swift kick in the butt for being dumber than Steve Jobs at making customers stranded with no place to go.
There’s no downgrade path to 32 bit from 64 bit, no optional install, no recovery, only more money down the toilet for a retail license I already own, which is 64 not 32. Or return the whole unit as far as I can tell. Pissed off I am.
Ideas welcome. Please, no, don’t tell me to buy a Mac or run Linux, as they are not solutions to this particular problem.
REPLY: Update, WUWT readers come through with a solution, providing a way to get a CD ISO of the 32 bit OS, and advising that the COA key for 64 bit will also work for 32 bit, something I didn’t know. Thanks!
The irony: I could have solved this issue with the Technet volume license subscription that I used to have, but that’s another licensing horror story where I fell into a trap I couldn’t recover from. The subscription lapsed a few days, I went to renew it, but found there’s no option for renewal on my login, and I’ve spent 3 months in runaround with MS volume licensing, who sold me a $900 solution that still didn’t work, getting a refund, then being told I had to buy the renewal through external distributors. When I contact them, they don’t know what I’m talking about and a vicious cycle ensues. I finally gave up.
My issues with MS are ones of over complexity in solving what should be simple licensing problems.
Thanks to WUWT readers for their solution suggestions.
I’ll post a new update when I have the results of this new attempt.
Anthony –
You might want to consider Acer as a laptop vendor. Win7 + 4 gig (or more) of memory and a decent sized HD might get you off the dime. Been running these for a few years in a hardware intensive environment and have been pleased with the performance. Cost for a box is in the $600 range and they come for the most part without the crapware loaded – which may be adding to the overall problem.
Alternately, if you want to take this offline and let me know details of the software product, I can get my local computer monger working on the issue with your product and see what he has to say. No guarantees, but I figure the more eyeballs on the problem the merrier. Cheers –
Steve R says:
February 21, 2011 at 6:55 pm
Mr Watts, you may not need to buy win7-32. I think if you have the product code for win7-64 that will also activate win7-32. You can just download it from Microsofts website and install it using the product code you have. I think. Call Microsoft and tell them what you want to do.
REPLY: That would be swell, except M$ stupid rule #7286 says “if you bought an OEM pre-installed version, you need to get an OEM disk to match. AFAIK, you can’t do what you say according to what I’ve found. And where would I download the ISO to burn such a disk?
Thanks, nice try -A
You can download the ISO file right from Microsofts web page. Download the 32 bit version of the iso, then burn a DVD or use an empty 4gb flash drive. Then create a new partition and install it as a dual boot system. The trial version will work for a limited time (30 days I think) before it starts annoying you about registering it. By then you’ll have a license code from the guy several posts up who would send you an OEM disk. However, I’m still not convinced that you are aren’t entitled to install both on your machine with the OEM license you have.
The problem here is your software vendor not MS Win 7. The vendor should supply both versions at the same cost so you can pick one that is applicable to your O/S. MS provides backwards compatibility to “help” such software vendors out whilst they produce a modern version of their software, but in this case they seem to have done this but then charge a lot more.
You really are channelling your angst at the wrong people. Presumably if the 32 bit version of the software does not work then these guys will ask you to load DOS 6.22 and start editing the autoexec.bat and config.sys. You don’t after all need more than 640k of memory for anything 😉
Andy
I vote call HP and tell them you’re sending it back and why, and hope they pull a rabbit out of the hat to avoid it.
Disappointing to hear that XP mode doesn’t solve your issue tho. I thought that was the point of it. I would have followed the same path you did (i.e. an Anytime upgrade to Professional).
Presumably, you could buy a full upgrade package from Amazon (both 32-bit and 64-bit) Premium for $109, and start over again on rebuilding the software. I think that would be allowed over an OEM install (tho it would still be a new install with all apps having to be restored). Then you could use your Anytime key to upgrade it to professional?
Lot of work, but you are where you are at this point.
In principle I am with Harry the Hacker, but:
– Virtualizing the digital signage program sooner than later may avoid headaches in the future. It should install on a 32bit VMed OS and then only depend on the drivers the VM supports. VMware would be my choice due performance and ease of use, tried quite a few of the free ones. Workstation is worth it for many purposes. I used to run an expensive 64bit software on 32bit XP, which was not advertised as viable. You can get a free trial license for VMware workstation and validate what works or does not before committing. Or explain to us why the signage program does not like a 32bit VM. If that is the case, then the signage program support should start to suffer the holes in the wall …
– Leave the laptop at 64bit by all means, moving to 32bit is not a winner. Have you checked if any of the differences/modules between premium home, professional, or ultimate may be the culprit?
Anthony, your publicizing the difficulty you are having with WIN 7 64 – not being able to go back to a working version of Microsoft’s “bread and butter” product without spending an unnecessary fortune – might just have the effect that the fellow who wrote “United Broke me Guitar” had. If enough of us just announce here on your site that we have had it with Microsoft, and plan on switching to “_______” in protest, maybe that might be enough marketing pressure to get the call you hope for to “make things right”, either from Microsoft or HP. Whatever happened to “the customer is always right”?
Back when I purchase this laptop from Toshiba I had a similar problem with Vista 64. When I called Toshiba customer service, I got the runaround, but when I took the machine back to the discount store I bought it at, they couldn’t hide as easily, and relented. They got me to agree that it wasn’t their fault, and I got them to install an OEM version of Vista 32.
AndyW35–
You think you might want to ask Anthony how long he’s owned that software before you dump it on the vendor? What you just said is that owners of WordPerfect for DOS purchased in the late 80’s should be entitled to free Win7 x64 compatible versions of the current version of WP today.
Have you tried vista at all? I run some very intensive apps and although I will admit there are serious issues with vista in general on even common programs and finding drivers in general, I have found some really strange programs work just fine on it when people with windows 7 have every issue in the world. (I am talking about 64 bit obviously and running 32 bit apps.)
I know its not ideal, but with my main computer (which is two years old but was *better then top of the line at the time) is still a very mean machine today…
Not sure if they offer a license for it cheaply, but its just a suggestion. I don’t like MS either, but I am forced to use it due to other apps as well. I know the pain….
I never switched to windows 7 because frankly vista works for what I need it to. (don’t break what works.)
In any regards, I don’t use software that is that expensive for personal usage, but its just a suggestion.
It sounds like the ones deserving the kick in the butt are those who developes that “very expensive broadcast multimedia program that demands 32 bit operation”. Perhaps they have good reasons for passing that kick on to Redmond, but they can’t escape the fact that they make their customers angry. I’m afraid you have to regard the 32 bit Windows requirement as an extra cost to an already “very expensive” program. Also, 32 bit makes your computer run at 3/4 speed.
REPLY: and yet, for the task at hand, it is the right choice – Anthony
Option (1).
I did this with my shiny new Vaio when Vista came out. It was so bad the machine rebooted itself in a repeated cycle, boot, blue-screen, boot, blue-screen etc. I showed the shop staff, and told them I was showing this to EVERY ONE of my customers. Not the best advertisement for either Vaio or Vista.
I now have Windows 7 64b on a meaty Alienware laptop, and I like it. Sad to hear of your problems, but do not accept the shoddy software, or the sales teams arguments as to why they are unable to refund you. Get the cash back and stick with 32 bits until Microsoft get it right (same as the 16 to 32 bit story).
Steinar Midtskogen says:
February 21, 2011 at 10:18 pm
No.
32 bits are plenty. 16 were plenty, really. RISC processors (like Apple used to use) worked fine and were faster. The maxing of bits is pure hype to sell more hardware.
If Microsoft claim 32bit compatibility, they should deliver it. End of story. NOT the developers who have spend dozens of developer-years building software that works.
as for running at 3/4 of the speed, that is not true at all. If anything, running 32 bit apps (ie the vast majority) on a 64 bit system wastes up to 50% of the processing in ‘thunking’ from 32 to 64 bits. I went for it for future compatibility as I need speed and do not want to rebuild my machine more than once every three years, but almost nobody needs 64 bits, unless you want to use rely on idiots like Adobe.
I guess Microsoft got themselves a reasonable amount of dubious publicity through their institutionalized silliness. Oh well – their loss. (And let’s not mention the insane Office 2007 user interface changes).
The Virtual Machine (VMWare) etc. suggestions are worth considering. The performance hit isn’t too bad (it may not be noticeable relative to your old machine if the new machine is reasonable).
And once you’ve got used to the VM idea, hardware lock-in is significantly less of a worry. Also saving backups of the ‘machine’ are easy – so there are some additional advantages to be had.
Anthony, I have it on second-hand knowledge that you can convert an OEM product key into a “real” key usable with the Win7 32-bit ISO from Microsoft’s site on a single-time basis by contacting the Microsoft activation department (see the number on this support article: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/326851 ). HAve not tried it myself, but 10 minutes on the phone while kicking off a 32-bit ISO download might save you some $$$.
Welcome to what I call the Permanently-Wet-Paint-Syndrome.
You buy the (espensive) paint because you like the colour. But once you’ve applied it to a surface, you find that you have to change the rest of the room to suit. So you renovate but when you try to apply the expensive paint to the new surface, you find that it simply doesn’t dry; no matter what you do. So you go back to the store to find a new owner who tells you that the anti-catalysts in new surfaces prevent the old paints from curing; but look! Here’s a brand new paint, that’s just as shiny as the old one, but it’ll only dry on new surfaces.
And that folks, is what make the “IT” industry profitable for oh so many operators.
Unfortunately, if you don’t have 32-bit drivers for the hardware, you’re lost should you try to install a 32-bit operating system. The operating system should allow a 32-bit application to use 64-bit hardware. That’s the purpose of the operating system; to provide a uniform interface to physical system resources for user-level software. It’s a travesty that it doesn’t.
I don’t expect expect you’d get much help from Microsoft. They’ve manipulated people’s expectations so much that mediocrity is now perceived as excellence.
So I can’t help except to say that I have a great deal of empathy for your plight.
Just as an anecdotal counterpoint, here’s my recent experience with Win7 64 Pro and XP Mode. In short, it just worked and saved me a bunch of pain.
I do embedded systems stuff, and need to use very niche-market hardware devices to drop firmware into the device I’m testing, run the debugger, and so forth. In my recent upgrade from an ancient XP box to a brand new Win7 box, I forgot to check if the specific device I need to use for a current project is supported. It isn’t.
However, the latest revision of VirtualPC, which implements XP Mode, has a nifty feature that allows USB devices to be handled by device drivers inside the VM even if they are unsupported outside. This actually works for the in-circuit programmer I needed to use, and it made it possible to finish that project up without spending additional time and money. And, the XP license required to do it is free with Win7 Pro or better.
My impression is that software in the XP VM is not running particularly slower than the same 32-bit software is outside. Virtualization technology is a lot better than it was even a few years ago.
Sorry for your troubles. I don’t know the solution to your particular issue, but there is a general lesson to be learned: Operating systems should be a commodity: If one does not work, use another at no extra cost.
I write this from a laptop that has W7 64bit home premium. It was a cheap offer. When I got it, I immediately installed Linux Kubuntu 32bit in dual boot. It turns out I almost never boot it into W7, although I can.
Unfortunately, there are some Windows programs that don’t run well on Linux (Photoshop for example), so sometimes you are stuck. But what you are saying is that there are some Windows programs that don’t run well on Windows, so sometimes you are stuck….
I am sometimes forced to use W7 at work. I find it very annoying, and I don’t accept that they removed the “Find files…” right-click folder option familiar to XP users.
Just my thoughts.
Just to say that I have suffered a similar problem with win 7 64. However it was time for the $3000 upgrade to my CAD software, which sorted the main issue. One of the things I did get upset about was the lack of 64 bit support for my still functional Canon scanner. Canon were no use, however a low priced (cheaper than a new scanner) program Vuescan solved the problem. My next scanner will be an Epson…
A bit of a lack of understanding amongst some of the comments here.
If you have 32 bit drivers, they plug into a 32 bit OS. You can’t plug 32 bit drivers into a 64 bit OS. COMPATABILITY MODE works extremely well on the 64 bit OS. I’m running programs that only worked properly on Windows 95 – on Win7, 64 bit. It’s PERFECT. MS spend a VAST amount of money on application level compatibility. What MS can’t do is magically make 32 bit drivers “just work” in a 64 bit OS. Drivers plug into and hook off low level gory bits in the operating system.
If you have unsigned drivers on Windows 7, 64 bit, you can make it work. Google it. There is a method of making it work, its a bit of a pain, but it is a solvable problem. Of course the drivers will still have to be 64 bit, even though unsigned.
The problem with Virtualising is that the weirdo devices need to “punch through” the virtulisation layer so that an OS running in a VM can get access to them. Most if not all hosted virtualisation solutions (eg VMWare Player, etc) are also virtualising the whole machine including all the devices. The VM system maps the virtual device to the real device, and this requires software in the VM system. Now, if the VM system is running on top of Windows 7 64 bit, and there is a strange device, the VM system aint going to know squat about how to play with it, so it is not going to appear there. So forget it – unless its a USB device. The VM systems frequently are capable of passing all the USB stuff through, with a speed penalty. The ONLY VM system I’d suggest that might let this work is VMWare Player or VMware Workstation.
The /3GB switch on Windows 32 bit editions is more hype than reality, its not going to make any significant difference. Research will cut through the hype, but the summary is: forget it, its not going to make any difference.
As for performance: I have found that the 64 bit operating system does run considerably faster, on the same hardware, than a 32 bit OS. However this is immaterial if you must run a 32 bit OS – that level of performance difference is merely academic.
The major performance difference does not actually come about from the “thunking” back and forth between 32 and 64 bit code. This was a performance related issued (though not much) back in the Win95/Win98 days when “thunking” was required between 32 and 16 bit code. The major performance difference on the modern hardware is that the processors are designed to run 64 bit code, and they will happily run 32 bit code as well. Just slower. The processor is working harder to run in cut-down mode. Again, whoopy-do, if you must run a 32 bit app this all does not matter.
The crux of the matter is still: is it the application, or is it drivers? If drivers, what kind? If USB, then MAYBE its worth trying VMWare Player (its free, and will do as well as VMWare Workstation). HOWEVER YOU STILL NEED TO INSTALL A LEGAL 32 BIT OS INSIDE THE VIRTUAL MACHINE! If you have time and energy and you are 100% sure its a USB device thats the root of the evil this may be worth a try.
Otherwise, you are back in the land of having to get a legal 32 bit OS to load. That problem is solvable in one form or another also, such as the people offering to send the media. Once thats arrived, use the existing Win7 code and it should be OK.
Bernd Felsche says:
February 21, 2011 at 10:58 pm
Unfortunately, if you don’t have 32-bit drivers for the hardware, you’re lost should you try to install a 32-bit operating system. The operating system should allow a 32-bit application to use 64-bit hardware. That’s the purpose of the operating system; to provide a uniform interface to physical system resources for user-level software. It’s a travesty that it doesn’t.
——————————————————————————————————–
Exactly right Bernd, the manufactures changed the I/O hook mapping in the BIOS and without their drivers you can’t take a new laptop back to XP. I believe it is a tie up with Microsoft to get us all on Win 7. Go to the Toshiba web site and see if you can find XP drivers for their new machines. You can load XP onto a new Toshiba machine and it will run OK in the VGA mode, no sound etc., so you can see, it’s not the O/S but the drivers that link to the i/o hooks.
This is nothing to do with software, account control, of running VM’s and sandboxes, it is to do with the hardwiring of the i/o ports and where they are physically located in the address map.
This has been my approach since the release of XP
This has enabled me to buy boxes pre-loaded with Vista and 7 without having actually having to use either of these versions.
For me Windows 2000 was the it isn’t broken so don’t fix it version… XP eventually caught up provided I set it to classic mode and I can live with that now…
However, Vista and 7 (plus the latest Office versions) are just huge backwards steps… bloated, slow, cumbersome and dumbed down… not for me…
And when they stop me installing XP then I will bite the Linux bullet because I see no benefit in being on a endless, pointless and expensive upgrade treadmill… and I see no point in supporting an organisation whose products have got progressively more grungy over the last ten years… and I don’t want to buy products with Product Activation because I don’t know when the company will stop supporting activation for my version or when they will go bust or be bought out or just plain wriggle out…
Two more: did you try VirtualBox (free I believe), or VMWare? VMWare is not free, but absolutely the best in emulating PCs.
I remember micro$oft when it was DOS3 and then DOS6 and windows 3.1 – and they all sucked. It took 10 years for Micro$oft to catch up with the opposition like Archimedes and Apple, yet the morons still fell for the advertising and ignored the many many many bugs and problems that Micro$oft caused everyone.
The truth is that without Micro$oft, computers would be another 10-20 years further on in development than they are now.
Of the dozen or so applications I have now, only one is windows based, and even that could be easily replaced,
Any company using micro$oft office needs a thorough medical examination as there is no good reason why it shouldn’t immediately go for openoffice
…. and the strangest thing I’ve noticed since ditching Micro$oft applications is that those essential upgrades to your PC as it slows, and slows and slows and slows down till nearly at a standstill and the PC you originally bought looks fast … well that disappears when you ditch Micro$oft and somehow you don’t need to change your PC.
Micro$oft … hide the decline?
I would order a set of recovery disks from HP with the 32 bit W7 on it. When you order the disks they ask you what OS you are running. Even the EliteBook 8740 ($3,600!) shipped with a variety of options, all of the way back to XP home. Maybe they will catch it on the serial number, maybe not. It is worth a (free) try. If it accepts the order, you are in.
I ordered some rec disks for a netbook here in the shop and they shipped the next day for $17 bucks. If they can recover a wiped drive, they can start you over, this time only 32 wide.
Here is a support doc on how to order recovery disks.
http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?objectID=c00810334
I’m really disappointed with this post. The childish ranting and usage of the “M$” notation are really beneath the level of discourse that I’ve grown used to here. If there is a genuine problem with a product, by all means call it out. However from what I can tell in this situation you made a mistake and are choosing to shift blame rather than accept responsibility your actions.
You’ve already mentioned that this is a highly specialized application that is hardware intensive and therefore requires specially tuned drivers. You’ve also mentioned that the app vendor sells both 32-bit and 64-bit versions. You have the 32-bit version, and are unwilling to upgrade to the 64-bit version, yet you purchased a 64-bit version of Windows and expected it to work? How is that Microsoft’s fault?
Sure it would be great if 64-bit Windows ran all 32-bit software perfectly, but it can’t and that’s not Microsoft’s fault. Some applications are sloppily written, others are very specialized. It sounds like this is a case of the latter, where the vendor was trying to eek out every last bit of performance by hard coding very low level machine calls. In a case like that you won’t have 100% compatibility which is probably why the vendor offers a dedicated 64-bit version.
As for downgrading to 32-bit from 64-bit, you fault Microsoft for that as if it is some sort of standard feature that every other OS manufacturer offers. The history of computer operating systems is littered with examples of compatibility issues when crossing bit boundaries, and going backward is rarely, if ever, a supported path. So again, how is this Microsoft’s fault?
The way I see it, you have 3 options, and none of them involve travel to Redmond or physical contact with anyone’s behind.
1. Return the laptop and request a replacement that has 32-bit Windows installed
2. Buy a retail copy of the OS and install the 32-bit version
3. Buy the 64-bit version of your application
While I know that #3 is the most painful financially, it will likely be your best long-term option, particularly if this app is as hardware intensive as you claim. 64-bit will allow more memory to be addressed, improving performance, and it will get you back onto a supported upgrade path for future versions of the application.
Carsten Arnholm, Norway says: February 21, 2011 at 11:28 pm
“I am sometimes forced to use W7 at work. I find it very annoying, and I don’t accept that they removed the “Find files…” right-click folder option familiar to XP users.”
I just couldn’t use Micro$oft’s file find … it was absolutely completely utterly useless. I could never find files even though I knew where they were, what they were called and just couldn’t find the folder.
So I installed “Agent Ransack” … which has worked so flawlessly that I had to look to find its name!! Apparently (reading the help) it is a lite version of the professional filefinderpro provided free of charge.