Pielke Sr. on the gang of 18 letter to congress

Comments On The Hill’s Post “Scientists Ask Congress To Put Aside Politics, Take ‘Fresh Look’ At Climate Data”

By Dr. Roger Pielke Sr.

http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/677-e2-wire/141453-scientists-put-aside-politics-and-focus-on-climate-science

There is an article in The Hill’s Energy and Environment Blog on February 1 2011 by Andrew Restuccia titled  [h/t/ Bob Ferguson]

Scientists ask Congress to put aside politics, take ‘fresh look’ at climate data

The news article starts with the text

More than a dozen scientists took aim at climate skeptics in a letter to members of Congress late last week, calling on lawmakers to put aside politics and focus on the science behind climate change.

In the Jan. 28 letter, 18 scientists from various universities and research centers called on lawmakers to take a “fresh look” at climate change.

“Political philosophy has a legitimate role in policy debates, but not in the underlying climate science,” the scientists said in the letter. “There are no Democratic or Republican carbon dioxide molecules; they are all invisible and they all trap heat.”

Other excerpts from the news article read [with my comments right below each excerpt]

“The scientists took aim at climate skeptics. “Climate change deniers cloak themselves in scientific language, selectively critiquing aspects of mainstream climate science,” the scientists said. “Sometimes they present alternative hypotheses as an explanation of a particular point, as if the body of evidence were a house of cards standing or falling on one detail; but the edifice of climate science instead rests on a concrete foundation.”

My Comment

Actually, the focus almost exclusively on the radiative effect of CO2 and a few other grenhouse gases is a house of cards. As we documented in our paper (in which each author is a Fellow of the American Geophysical Union)

Pielke Sr., R., K. Beven, G. Brasseur, J. Calvert, M. Chahine, R. Dickerson, D. Entekhabi, E. Foufoula-Georgiou, H. Gupta, V. Gupta, W. Krajewski, E. Philip Krider, W. K.M. Lau, J. McDonnell,  W. Rossow,  J. Schaake, J. Smith, S. Sorooshian,  and E. Wood, 2009: Climate change: The need to consider human forcings besides greenhouse gases. Eos, Vol. 90, No. 45, 10 November 2009, 413. Copyright (2009) American Geophysical Union

“In addition to greenhouse gas emissions, other first-order human climate forcings are important to understanding the future behavior of Earth’s climate. These forcings are spatially heterogeneous and include the effect of aerosols on clouds and associated precipitation [e.g., Rosenfeld et al., 2008], the influence of aerosol deposition (e.g., black carbon (soot) [Flanner et al. 2007] and reactive nitrogen [Galloway et al., 2004]), and the role of changes in land use/land cover [e.g., Takata et al., 2009]. Among their effects is their role in altering atmospheric and ocean circulation features away from what they would be in the natural climate system [NRC, 2005]. As with CO2, the lengths of time that they affect the climate are estimated to be on multidecadal time scales and longer.

Therefore, the cost-benefit analyses regarding the mitigation of CO2 and other greenhouse gases need to be considered along with the other human climate forcings in a broader environmental context, as well as with respect to their role in the climate system.”

and

“The evidence predominantly suggests that humans are significantly altering the global environment, and thus climate, in a variety of diverse ways beyond the effects of human emissions of greenhouse gases, including CO2…….Because global climate models do not accurately simulate (or even include) several of these other first-order human climate forcings, policy makers must be made aware of the inability of the current generation of models to accurately forecast regional climate risks to resources on multidecadal time scales.”

The failure of this group of climate scientists to consider this broader perspective illustrates their inappropriately narrow view of climate including the role of humans in affecting it, as well as of other social and environmental threats as discussed in the weblog post

A Way Forward In Climate Science Based On A Bottom-Up Resource-Based Perspective

The Hill post also writes

“Congress should, we believe, hold hearings to understand climate science and what it says about the likely costs and benefits of action and inaction,” the scientists wrote. “It should not hold hearings to attempt to intimidate scientists or to substitute ideological judgments for scientific ones.”

The letter of January 28, 2011 to the Members of the U.S. House of Representatives and the U.S. Senate is from

John Abraham, University of St. Thomas

Barry Bickmore, Brigham Young University

Gretchen Daily,* Stanford University

G. Brent Dalrymple,* Oregon State University

Andrew Dessler, Texas A&M University

Peter Gleick,* Pacific Institute

John Kutzbach,* University of Wisconsin-Madison

Syukuro Manabe,* Princeton University

Michael Mann, Penn State University

Pamela Matson,* Stanford University

Harold Mooney,* Stanford University

Michael Oppenheimer, Princeton University

Ben Santer, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

Richard Somerville, Scripps Institution of Oceanography

Kevin Trenberth, National Center for Atmospheric Research

Warren Washington, National Center for Atmospheric Research

Gary Yohe, Wesleyan University

George Woodwell,* The Woods Hole Research Center

*Member of the National Academy of Sciences

The letter is reproduced in the news article and has the following excerpts which I will comment on.

First, two excerpts separated by a few paragraphs illustrates an inconstant claim of the above individuals.  They write

“It is not our role as scientists to determine how to deal with problems like climate change. That is a policy matter and rightly must be left to our elected leaders in discussion with all Americans.  But, as scientists, we have an obligation to evaluate, report, and explain the science behind climate change.”

but then later state

“We and our colleagues are prepared to assist you as you work to develop a rational and practical national policy to address this important issue.”

My Comment

It’s actually hard to find a more self-contradictory statement!

The next excerpt is

“But no one who argues against the science of climate change has ever provided an alternative scientific theory that adequately satisfies the observable evidence or conforms to our understanding of physics, chemistry, and climate dynamics.”

The authors of the letter do not even define what is “the science of climate change”.  From the context of the letter, however, they clearly mean the dominance of the radiative effect of CO2 and a few other gases as being the primary forcing that alters long-term weather statistics and other aspects of the climate. However, it is straightforward to refute this hypothesis as we did in our paper listed above [Pielke et al, 2009] where we documented that the hypothesis

Although the natural causes of climate variations and changes are undoubtedly important, the human influences are significant and are dominated by the emissions into the atmosphere of greenhouse gases, the most important of which is CO2. The adverse impact of these gases on regional and global climate constitutes the primary climate issue for the coming decades.

has been rejected.

The only hypothesis that has not been rejected is

“Although the natural causes of climate variations and changes are undoubtedly important, the human influences are significant and involve a diverse range of first-order climate forcings, including, but not limited to, the human input of carbon dioxide (CO2). Most, if not all, of these human influences on regional and global climate will continue to be of concern during the coming decades.”

We agree that “human activity is changing the climate” e.g. see

Inadvertent Weather Modification: An Information Statement of the American Meteorological Society

(Adopted by the AMS Council on 2 November 2010)

but this statement documents that the influence of humans on the local, regional and global scale is much more than due to the radiative effect of CO2 and a few other greenhouse gases.  The narrow perspective presented by the authors of the letter to Congress is not supported by the current scientific knowledge.

The next excerpt is

“Climate change deniers cloak themselves in scientific language, selectively critiquing aspects of mainstream climate science. Sometimes they present alternative hypotheses as an explanation of a particular point, as if the body of evidence were a house of cards standing or falling on one detail; but the edifice of climate science instead rests on a concrete foundation. As an open letter from 255 NAS members noted in the May 2010 Science magazine, no research results have produced any evidence that challenges the overall scientific understanding of what is happening to our planet’s climate and why.”

My Comment

Without commenting on their very inappropriate use of the term “denier”, their claim that “no research results have produced any evidence that challenges the overall scientific understanding of what is happening to our planet’s climate and why”, is blatantly wrong. Examples of major international assessment reports that refute their claim include

Kabat, P., Claussen, M., Dirmeyer, P.A., J.H.C. Gash, L. Bravo de Guenni, M. Meybeck, R.A. Pielke Sr., C.J. Vorosmarty, R.W.A. Hutjes, and S. Lutkemeier, Editors, 2004: Vegetation, water, humans and the climate: A new perspective on an interactive system. Springer, Berlin, Global Change – The IGBP Series, 566 pp

and

National Research Council, 2005: Radiative forcing of climate change: Expanding the concept and addressing uncertainties. Committee on Radiative Forcing Effects on Climate Change, Climate Research Committee, Board on Atmospheric Sciences and Climate, Division on Earth and Life Studies, The National Academies Press, Washington, D.C., 208 pp

In National Research Council (2005)  it is written

“…..the traditional global mean TOA radiative forcing concept has some important limitations, which have come increasingly to light over the past decade. The concept is inadequate for some forcing agents, such as absorbing aerosols and land-use changes, that may have regional climate impacts much greater than would be predicted from TOA radiative forcing. Also, it diagnoses only one measure of climate change—global mean surface temperature response—while offering little information on regional climate change or precipitation. These limitations can be addressed by expanding the radiative forcing concept and through the introduction of additional forcing metrics. In particular, the concept needs to be extended to account for (1) the vertical structure of radiative forcing, (2) regional variability in radiative forcing, and (3) nonradiative forcing.”

“Regional variations in radiative forcing may have important regional and global climatic implications that are not resolved by the concept of global mean radiative forcing. Tropospheric aerosols and landscape changes have particularly heterogeneous forcings. To date, there have been only limited studies of regional radiative forcing and response. Indeed, it is not clear how best to diagnose a regional forcing and response in the observational record; regional forcings can lead to global climate responses, while global forcings can be associated with regional climate responses. Regional diabatic heating can also cause atmospheric teleconnections that influence regional climate thousands of kilometers away from the point of forcing. Improving societally relevant projections of regional climate impacts will require a better understanding of the magnitudes of regional forcings and the associated climate responses.”

“Several types of forcings—most notably aerosols, land-use and land-cover change, and modifications to biogeochemistry—impact the climate system in nonradiative ways, in particular by modifying the hydrological cycle and vegetation dynamics. Aerosols exert a forcing on the hydrological cycle by modifying cloud condensation nuclei, ice nuclei, precipitation efficiency, and the ratio between solar direct and diffuse radiation received. Other nonradiative forcings modify the biological components of the climate system by changing the fluxes of trace gases and heat between vegetation, soils, and the atmosphere and by modifying the amount and types of vegetation. No metrics for quantifying such nonradiative forcings have been accepted. Nonradiative forcings have eventual radiative impacts, so one option would be to quantify these radiative impacts. However, this approach may not convey appropriately the impacts of nonradiative forcings on societally relevant climate variables such as precipitation or ecosystem function. Any new metrics must also be able to characterize the regional structure in nonradiative forcing and climate response.”

The authors of the letter to the Members of Congress have failed to communicate these issues to them in their communication.

Summary

The authors of this letter to Congress clearly are advocates for particular policy actions based on their (in my view) inaccurately narrow view of the role of humans within the climate system.  They are trying to claim they are only focusing on the science issues, but even a casual examination of their letter shows they are advocates. They still, unfortunately, have not read my son’s book

Pielke, R. A. Jr,  2007: The Honest Broker: Making Sense of Science in Policy and Politics (Cambridge University Press, 2007) should be required reading to determine the role that each AGU member wants to serve with respect to their interface with the political process.

in order to educate them on the role they have chosen when interfacing with policymakers.

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D Smith
February 4, 2011 11:55 am

I wonder if the “Gand of 18” is concerned their funding is in jeopardy.

D Caldwell
February 4, 2011 11:59 am

Hoser says:
“The camouflage is created for the policymakers to use. They are not interested in truth, whatever that is. They want justification for furthering their goals of taking more and more control over the economy and us.”
I must agree the above is absolutely true for our current Administration and for many in Congress. However, I have some guarded optimism that there are also many members of Congress who are not quite so enthusiastic about the Federal Government being the solution to all society’s ills. We shall see….

1DandyTroll
February 4, 2011 12:05 pm

Funny, 18 scientist but not one sign with academic credentials nor titles.
So how many of ’em actually have credentials and titles and are doing science in an official capacity, all as in not just self proclaimed?
Personally I only recognized four but only because they’re the crazed hippie van gaurd in different gates. :p

John F. Hultquist
February 4, 2011 12:07 pm

“Climate change deniers cloak themselves in scientific language, selectively critiquing aspects of mainstream climate science.”
If one eliminates the snarky parts, there is this:
‘Some researchers selectively critique climate science.’
. . . Now looking for notes from my first ever science class . . .
This is a great post. Thanks to Prof Pielke Sr. and WUWT for giving it wide exposure.
Being a serious issue, I will also suggest reading the recent report by Craig and Sherwood Idso, especially the “Concluding Commentary.”
http://co2science.org/education/reports/prudentpath/prudentpath.pdf
This was the core of a WUWT post a few days ago.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/01/31/carbon-dioxide-and-earths-future/
Finally, I wonder if our congress folk ever take the time to read so much material?

ClimateWatcher
February 4, 2011 12:09 pm

Oppenheimer?
Trenberth?
Mann?
Dessler?
Santer?
You could find many who have politicized the issuer more.
Also, try doing a google ‘Scholar’ search on most of the others.
Many disparate fields not known for familiarity with climate data.
I wish there was a fresh look at the climate data to remind us
the very real observed warming trends are all at a rate consistent with the
low end of predicted ranges, which, should they continue, not even warm us
back to average temperatures of the dawn of civilization.

hunter
February 4, 2011 12:10 pm

This is such a transparent appeal to authority, it makes me wonder if we really are getting the best and brightest in science, much less politics.
If the Republican majority falls for this snookering, we are in deep trouble on many fronts, not just climate/energy.
Does anyone have handy addresses of the Congressional members who are the butt of this sort of effort? Perhaps our elected representatives would still like to hear in a respectful polite but direct way what many people who actually keep up with this issue think of this effort?

hunter
February 4, 2011 12:11 pm

Regg,
In what universe is it warming and warming fast?
How do you define warming, and how do you define warming fast?
Please illustrate.

ClimateWatcher
February 4, 2011 12:18 pm

Reg: “However, the outcome is the same – it’s warming and warming fast.”
Do a linear fit of the CRU temperatures from 1910 through 1945.
Do the same fit of CRU data from 1979 through the present.
If you do so, you will note that recent decades’ warming ( reputed to be ‘global warming’ ) of about 1.6 C per century
does not even match the highest rate recorded ( early twentieth century rate of 1.7 C per century ).
Further, while this rate (1.6 C per century ) exceeds the falsification limit,
it does not reach the rate of the IPCC best estimate for even the ‘Lo Scenario’
(of 1.8 C per century ) much less the middle or ‘High Scenarios’.
Global warming is real, in principle, but it is also a hoax of exaggeration.

Regg
February 4, 2011 12:18 pm

TO richard verney
I don’t consider a -0.009 of a degree drop a big set back for a single month considering the current La Nina. But if you compare 2011 to 2008 (both La Nina years) you’ll get warmer temps currently than in 2008 by about 0.3 – and in fact warmer than any previous La Nina 30 years back (even 1999)
But that’s not the issue in this subject.
Pielke clarely stated :
In addition to greenhouse gas emissions, other first-order human climate forcings are important to understanding the future behavior of Earth’s climate. These forcings are spatially heterogeneous and include the effect of aerosols on clouds and associated precipitation
And
Therefore, the cost-benefit analyses regarding the mitigation of CO2 and other greenhouse gases need to be considered along with the other human climate forcings in a broader environmental context, as well as with respect to their role in the climate system.”
Emphasis mine..
So clearly Pielke et al are not saying CO2 is not a driver as some posters claimed above, but he’s saying that’s not the only one. Now, making it ”not the only one” (and i don’t think they really claim it was), does’nt mean it does not exist – it means there is other things that needs to be taken care along side with CO2.
That’s what Pielke is claiming. So when Pielke is offended by the word ”denier”, he should understand that he’s being put in the same bag as the other 12 by a good bunch of posters here. How does he call them ? Skeptics ? ….
As per the economics, the US debt is not caused by the investment made to fight CO2… Don’t make me laught in saying the US is spending trillions of $$ on Co2 mitigation, please. China is the country spending the most for that issue and that is about 54 billions (paid mostly by financing the US debt).

Mac the Knife
February 4, 2011 12:19 pm

Pull My Finger: “….Global Warming is a rounding error.”
Excellent!!!!
With your permission, this will soon be a ‘bumper sticker’ on my vehicle!
I find gently chiding humor, founded on an observablel truth, to be an effective method of challenging the current dogma.
Thanks!!!

D Caldwell
February 4, 2011 12:30 pm

“We and our colleagues are prepared to assist you as you work to develop a rational and practical national policy to address this important issue.”
ROTFLMAO!!!
Reminds me of the old joke:
“Hello, I’m from the IRS and I’m here to help you.”

Tamara
February 4, 2011 12:34 pm

“But no one who argues against the science of climate change has ever provided an alternative scientific theory that adequately satisfies the observable evidence or conforms to our understanding of physics, chemistry, and climate dynamics.”
I have a theory that singularities are caused by the flatulence of giant intergalactic caterpillars, and anyone who can’t provide an alternative theory must therefore accept my theory or be forever labeled a GIC denier.

Hoser
February 4, 2011 12:36 pm

D Caldwell says:
February 4, 2011 at 11:59 am
Unfortunately, I am growing more skeptical because there is too much money and power already in the hands of government. Bureaucrats have a political agenda too (they are produced by places like Berkeley and Harvard and they select like-minded people to advance), and career government employees don’t get booted when the next party takes power.
Also, regulations create markets that keep faltering companies afloat. They get fat and lazy without competition. For example, GE is looking forward to a new smart grid market. IBM, CISCO, INTEL and many others are getting in on the action too. In this way, government controls industry. It isn’t a free market anymore.
Politicians on both sides are interested in getting support from corpoprate donors. It is easier to go along with the program than adhere to some vague principles the voters prefer. It is our job as voters to try to identify and elect representatives who will work for the people. They are the rare exceptions when you get above local politics.
It is plainly evident, politics as usual is not sustainable. The government has grown to the point where it is now in competition with the people. Electeds and regulators don’t know how to hold bureaucracy in place, much less contract. They only know how to grow.
EPA, for example, has accomplished its main tasks already. We have taken the low-hanging fruit. No doubt, they have done a great job cleaning up America. The problem is because they have done what they set out to do originally, they now have to find new regulatory avenues that are not cheap or even practical to implement. No government program ever wants to be successful, because if it does complete its tasks, it ends (or should).
I would like to see EPA shift into maintenance and monitoring mode. There is no need for them to do anything new. Unfortunately, the new EPA regs keep up the anxiety level in the public to avoid resitance, and help the companies get what they want out of their regulatory markets. In turn, our elected friends get their support for re-election.

John from New Zealand
February 4, 2011 12:39 pm

I wonder if they’ll recommend that Congress examines the failure of the atmospheric hot spot to eventuate, and all the other IPCC predictions that have either failed or are so weak as to render them redundant – which is pretty much all the main points of AGW.
Talking about the hot spot no-show drives AGW promoters nuts & I’m yet to see anyone explain it away. This issue should be more visible to the public as it kills AGW with no hope of resuscitation.
http://objectivistindividualist.blogspot.com/2009/12/blog-post_30.html
http://www.sciencespeak.com/MissingSignature.pdf

Noelle
February 4, 2011 12:41 pm

Dr. Pielke,
Please explain how when the authors in question write:
“Major international scientific organizations in disciplines ranging from geophysics to geology, atmospheric sciences to biology, and physics to human health – as well as every one of the leading national scientific academies worldwide – have concluded that human activity is changing the climate. This is not a ‘belief.’ Instead, it is an objective evaluation of the scientific evidence.”
You seem to interpret this as: “Actually, the focus almost exclusively on the radiative effect of CO2 and a few other greenhouse gases is a house of cards.”
I don’t see how you can make your “a house of cards” reference when the authors reference the conclusions of this vasy array of organizations, including the U.S. National Academy of Sciences. Are you chellenging the conclusions of these organizations?

Theo Goodwin
February 4, 2011 12:43 pm

William Gray says:
February 4, 2011 at 11:26 am
“Regg its not warming fast, however Dr Pielke realises as do all concerned sceptics that our activities are changing the world. Here is Australia we have trashed the landscape causing many animal and plants to become endangered and some extinct. Focusing on one element of the biosphere is EXTREMELY NARROW MINDED. For once humans need to wake up globally and present some intelligent stewardship. Any ideas?”
In Europe and the USA, the indigenous populations have experienced birth rates dangerously below replacement level for at least 40 years. This fact should be treated as a health crisis of the first order by all nations.

mpaul
February 4, 2011 12:55 pm

“Congress should, we believe, hold hearings to understand climate science and what it says about the likely costs and benefits of action and inaction.”
Well, I agree completely with that. But they then go on to say:
“It should not hold hearings to attempt to intimidate scientists or to substitute ideological judgments for scientific ones.”
Ah, this is really the crux of it. This is why they sent the letter. They are trying to set the scene. They understand that there will now actually be hearings on the science and that worries them. So what they are trying to do is to give themselves cover. Should an inconvinient question arise for which they have no answers (like, ‘how much of the recent warming can likely be attributed to natural variation’) they will claim its just a political attack by the denial machine.

Anything is possible
February 4, 2011 1:11 pm

What Mann et al are doing is not science, but political activism masquerading as science.
If Congress truly wants to better understand climate science, it should speak to scientists from across the entire spectrum of opinions, give equal respect to all and, above all, keep an open mind.
Deciding future policy solely on the basis of what these jokers have to say would be to invite disaster…….

Wondering Aloud
February 4, 2011 1:12 pm

Dear Regg
In case you haven’t noticed it is not “warming fast”. In fact it is not warming at all. There is, as of right now, no actual proof of any warming beyond natural variation. It really was warmer, in this hemisphere at least, 1000 years ago. Most of the 20th century warming was probably created by data fudging but even if real it would be well within normal range.
Land use changes means among other things UHI.

Julian in Wales
February 4, 2011 1:21 pm

What is all this stuff about being a scientist or not being a scientist. Yes professionals are to be listened too, and yes professionals do have knowledge and techniques that amateurs are often unaware of, but in the end they are people: Clever, stupid, vain, modest, sensitive and insensitive.
Do the mathematics that we cannot understand for us, present the data in a way we can understand, give your reasons for what you think it all means, and then accept you are one of many people on this planet who know only so much and no more.
In fact do as Anthony Watts does on this blog. If you like people you will not look down on people. I trust this blog because of it’s openess and its willingness to let everyday people disagree and debate with the scientists willing to put their theories into the public domain, I do not trust the sort of people (even if they say they are real scientists) who write in the pompous style above.

Laurie Bowen
February 4, 2011 1:22 pm

D Caldwell said “””Reminds me of the old joke:
“Hello, I’m from the IRS and I’m here to help you.”””
That’s not what they told me! They told me . . .
‘Hello, I’m from the IRS and I’m here to help MYSELF!’

Dan in California
February 4, 2011 1:24 pm

From their letter to Congress: “Although the natural causes of climate variations and changes are undoubtedly important, the human influences are significant and are dominated by the emissions into the atmosphere of greenhouse gases, the most important of which is CO2. ”
The most *important* greenhouse gas may be CO2, but the most *effective* greenhouse gas is H2O. Anyone familiar with an infrared absorption spectrum can show that CO2 has a small effect compared to water vapor. But since mankind can do nothing about that, we’ll just regulate CO2 production instead.
I think an effective strategy might be to take the EPA to court to demand that they regulate greenhouse gasses in order of effectiveness. When they successfully mandate the quantity of water evaporation over the oceans, they can proceed to the lesser problems such as CO2 and N2O emission by humans.

P. Solar
February 4, 2011 1:27 pm

“The letter” says:
“The fruits of the scientific process are worthy of your trust. This was perhaps best summed up in recent testimony before Congress by Dr. Peter Gleick, co-founder and director of the Pacific Institute and member of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences. He testified that the scientific process “is inherently adversarial – scientists build reputations and gain recognition not only for supporting conventional wisdom, but even more so for demonstrating that the scientific consensus is wrong and that there is a better explanation. ”
Which, of course, is why the signatories of “The Letter” start off by calling anyone who disagrees with them a “denier”. Good , honest, objective scientists to a Mann.

old44
February 4, 2011 1:30 pm

“Climate change deniers cloak themselves in scientific language, selectively critiquing aspects of mainstream climate science,”
If the Govt. would provide AGW realists with sufficient funds, they could then critique
all of the work of “mainstream science” without being selective.
How many accountants did it take to “critique” Bernie Madoff’s work?

Douglas
February 4, 2011 1:32 pm

Theo Goodwin says:
February 4, 2011 at 12:43 pm
William Gray says:
February 4, 2011 at 11:26 am
In Europe and the USA, the indigenous populations have experienced birth rates dangerously below replacement level for at least 40 years. This fact should be treated as a health crisis of the first order by all nations.
——————————————————————
Theo Goodwin. Would you please define what you mean by the ‘indigenous populations’ of Europe and the USA.
Thank you
Douglas