Prop 23 "suspend global warming law" fails in California

The Secretary of State’s website is overloaded, this according to the LA Times, with 3.5 million votes counted statewide:

source: http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/election/#props

Oh, and Jerry Brown. Ah, moonbeams and business exodus, the combo that killed the golden state goose.

Strangely, the first symptom seems to be dyslexia, as this odd Google ad showed up right after I hit publish: (screencap)

Maybe by morning they’ll have that fixed….

 

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174 thoughts on “Prop 23 "suspend global warming law" fails in California

  1. Hard to believe that citizen’s in your state like paying 4x the national rate for electricity. I wonder what would happen if they had a vote on this:
    Vote to ban male rape in prison:
    No = 60%
    Yes = 40%

  2. Gov. Moonbeam, Sen. Box of Rocks, and carbon induced economic suicide, you California folks really should replace the Golden Bear on the state flag with a lemming. It’s hard to believe with that combo of results that they actually turned down legalized pot, although from the election results it doesn’t appear that many are allowing the fact that it’s still illegal have much effect on their levels of consumption.

  3. Prop 23 or 32. What’s the difference? It’s just numbers. You know the CAGW doesn’t really care about accurate numbers. Just ballpark numbers to advance their agenda. Accuracy is not necessary.

  4. Business exodus maybe, from the numbers though looks like the citizens want it that way. If California does go bankrupt I will be furious if the rest of us have to bail them out. I am all for States rights, they have a right to fail and I have a right to sit back and do nothing.

  5. It seems that signing your own financial death warrant is now de rigueur on the west coast. RIP California. It was fun knowing you…

  6. This is fantastic news … for anyone who is not living in California. First we’ll see the slow economic decline of California and an exodus of industry, then as the rest of the world watches in horror, it’ll the shut up the stupid greens who say green “economics” can be economically sustainable.

  7. Those strange Cafilornia critters probably suspect that economic suicide will not be painless … that is why they didn’t legalize pot … if it’s not legal, it can’t be taxed … and they’ll need to be floating as the state dies under the beatific gaze of that old, old guy they just voted in … again.

  8. With Barbara Boxter and Harry Reid still in the seat, a Democratic Senate Majority still in tact and all Czars still in place, Proposition 23 will be seen as an encouragement to push though some kind of National Climate Legislation, even Cap & Trade during one of the infamous Lame Duck Sessions. They simply won’t give up.
    The US will absorb the loss of California as a productive hub as most of the industrial activities will be taken over by other US States.
    An exodus of jobs and citizens will make it doubtful if California will be able to perform the planned investments.
    The introduction of National Climate policies however will be extremely harmful.
    Extreme vigilance is required.
    I expect an extremely bumpy ride for the upcoming two years and it will be a make or break test for the GOP and the Tea Party. They will have to ‘deliver’ from day one.
    An almost impossible task within the current setting.

  9. 60-40. Wow. Now all those green jobs will start flowing into California and the world will be saved.
    I just don’t understand how so many Californians can believe in the rainbows and unicorns that they have been promised.

  10. And pot is still illegal.
    You would think a lot of people would have had to have been high to vote down Prop 23. Apparently not.
    But good news for the largest industry in my home province of British Columbia. Years of bud profits await us.

  11. oakgeo says:
    November 3, 2010 at 1:20 am
    “I just don’t understand how so many Californians can believe in the rainbows and unicorns that they have been promised.”
    Maybe too many of them on that pot?…

  12. This is a short-term bad, but a long-term good. If Prop 23 passed, the Greens would have had a propaganda field-day about how terrible things were becoming with the environment. Now they get to prove to themselves and the world just how bad their plans really are. Unfortunately, California’s economy is a sizable fraction of North America’s, but at least some of the lost productivity will shift to other states. Then, after everything in California crashes and burns under the regulatory weight, the Greens will have been discredited and the western world will be able to get back to being productive again.
    I’m such an idealist.

  13. Keep in mind that statistically speaking, 50% of the people are below average. How many folks truly knew what they were voting for?

  14. California’s deficit is, approx, 1% of State GDP. And, they probably send that much money to Super-Duper “Low-Tax” States like my own. I think California will probably be just fine.

  15. On a lighter note, there is this California congressman, Darrell Issa:
    There is hope in California; even if there is no hope for California.
    “House Oversight Committee chairman-elect Rep. Darrell Issa downplayed the vast new power of subpoena he will be assuming come January.”
    “Issa made a point of noting that other committees would be in the investigation business, too. For instance, he said the House Science Committee will have primary jurisdiction on the so-called “Climategate” scandal where top global warming scientists are accused, based on a document dump of their e-mails, of tilting the scales in their scientific investigations.”
    http://dailycaller.com/2010/11/03/issa-my-job-is-to-make-the-president-a-success/
    Published: 1:58 AM 11/03/2010 | Updated: 2:41 AM 11/03/2010

  16. Years ago one of my friends in NZ, a lecturer (‘Professor’ in the USA) at our local Teachers Training College, enjoyed a sabbatical in the USA, mostly spent in California. When he returned to work, he frequently remarked that, ‘in California, all phantasies were available 24/7.’ I now know what he meant.

  17. Jim Cameron wins! California loses. Well done Jim : (
    We have a UK Cameron , who frankly is no better. The UK loses. Well done David : (

  18. The race was lost the moment opposing ads with asthmatic children appeared…
    The fact that C02 could never harm a child with asthma is irrelevant – the good sheeple here will believe it – after all, the bill has the word “pollution” in it and everybody knows what pollution is… And what is “pollution”? Why, whatever the guvmint SAYS it is, that’s what… Isn’t life simple?

  19. The same sort of mentality seems to rule in Massachusetts. It astounds me, however I suppose some can’t face reality until it clonks them over the head.
    Some can’t face reality even after they are clonked. (Some in England were insisting Hitler could be reasoned with, even as Hitler marched into Poland in 1939.) In my opinion they are the true “clingers.” In the case of California, I suppose you could call them “glitter clingers.”
    Just about the only good I can see coming out of this is that, when a sticky, smelly, brown substance hits the fan, you want the people who threw the sticky, smelly, brown substance to be standing right by the fan.

  20. In the idiom of OZ Cala-bloody- fornia what have you done. Once you were one of the top ten economies of the world, by my less than university trained brain even I can see a very slippery downward path to penurary.
    Disappointment and sorrow is all I can add.

  21. Kate says:
    November 3, 2010 at 1:08 am
    California … now economically and politically twinned with Britain?
    Got there before me, althought i’d rather be paying high fuel cost’s in california than the UK, I always thought the the enviro moment in the UK was pushing ahead with sky high fuel bills to help with the human population growth problem, nothing like the poorest and weakest in your society not able to afford heating in -10 temps to get that death toll up. Although as this doesn’t affect the enviro’s directly i’m sure they don’t really care as long as it saves a polar bear.

  22. well – would not worry, I am sure obama will be pushed into a war with iran soon by the hawks.
    So the arms industry will take up the slack like it always does.

  23. Dear Anthony,
    you have my sincerest commiserations.
    You must feel in between a rock and a hard place as to what to do for the best.
    Most of us here would probably encourage the Exodus option, but it looks like you’ll need to move fast and probably take a hit or two, but be assured, we’re rooting for you.
    Go where the best opportunities present themselves.
    Look out for you and yours.
    All the best.

  24. Welcome to the hotel California
    Such a lovely place
    Such a lovely face
    They livin’ it up at the hotel California
    What a nice surprise, bring your alibis
    Mirrors on the ceiling,
    The pink champagne on ice
    And she said ’we are all just prisoners here, of our own device’
    And in the master’s chambers,
    They gathered for the feast
    The stab it with their steely knives,
    But they just can’t kill the beast
    Last thing I remember, I was
    Running for the door
    I had to find the passage back
    To the place I was before
    ’relax,’ said the night man,
    We are programmed to receive.
    You can checkout any time you like,
    But you can never leave!
    __The Eagles, Hotel California__

  25. I have to say that I’m extremely disappointed in the election results. It’s just amazing that so many people could throw such opportunity away. Where I live, everyone hates the current state of affairs, but they hate anyone who isn’t a dimocrat even more. Politics and climate science are much the same in that the general population can’t spare 30mins of time to actually do a little research on any given issue, once again supporting the idea that people truly do get the government they deserve. Or at least some of them do.
    JimB

  26. I guess California volunteered for the position of green koolaid guinea pig. The problem with using psychoactive drugs is that the chemically induced fantasy tends to end with the cold, hard fist of reality slamming home. Good luck, Cali
    [d]

  27. There is nothing such than a concrete example .
    Just an example – Communism and Marxism have been destroyed because people had every day in front of their eyes a concrete example of what it does and where it leads when it is in power .
    Annihilation of personal freedom and economical ruin .
    Unfortunately several generations of good people were sacrificed in the destruction process .
    As I have known many people of these generations lost to delirious ideologies , I am sad for Californians (those who will stay) .
    But on the other hand it will serve of example for others , clearly showing that the environmentalism is just another of those “isms” that must and will be destroyed in order to live free again .

  28. Okalifornia businesses… the dust left here seventy years ago…
    maybe it’s time to come home, at least here you will be welcomed.

  29. As someone said, california is about to go “FULL RETARD”
    I’m not disappointed that Jerry Brown was elected because he and his party will take full blame for what is about to happen to California over the next 15 years.

  30. Thick-Skulled Larry’s stoopid question of the day. My imperfect understanding of the history of AB 32 is that California coordinated its effort with neighboring states at the time. If so, wouldn’t moving one’s business to Nevada be pointless if the primary impetus was the failure of Prop 23?

  31. We now have ring-side seats in California, that will show the rest of the country how “green jobs” and overreaching CO2 regulations will first strangle, then kill the state’s economy.

  32. Wow, in Calif not only did we affirm the “green” agenda, we also apparently passed legislation which allows an increase in spending with a simple majority.
    The saying, “as Calif goes, so goes the country” may enable our failure to be a warning for the rest of the country. OTOH, Obama may send so much stimulus here that it makes the green agenda appear, on the surface, to be a success. I hope not, but fear this.

  33. The unintended consequences of Prop 19 showed up prior to the vote, which then rejected it.
    I have never seen the volume of out-of-state traffic that took place here the last 6 months. They were preparing to turn California into the Golden Dispensary. They came to buy up rural land and made Forest Clearcutting look like a Sunday Picnic as they trashed everywhere they went. That, and the awful stench of putrid skunk invading neighborhoods across the State.
    Now, Prop 23 will rear it’s ugly head rather slowly, but it will be every bit as offensive.

  34. What dissappointment that the Democrats held on to the Senate! At least the HoR has converted back to some form of sanity. Is there a system over there where if a Senator shuffles off this mortal coil that a new election can take place for that seat? Just a thought but of course I wish none of the democrats ill 🙂 at all, although I cannot say they would think the same of me et al.
    I loved California when I visited there all too briefly as a young man in 1981. San Francisco was beautiful & very cosmopolitan, with some great bars & other places of national interest! (I was only 23 at the time). LA I could take of leave at least some parts of it that is, no offence intended. I loved driving down the coast road thro’ Monterey & on to Santa Barbera then on down to LA. We enjoyed driving from the hotel across the by-pass/inner city highway to the beach, driving down Sunset Boulevard was a real treat. Venice Beach was an eye opener for us young lads, there were some stunning women their too!!!!! (I need a lie down in a darkened room). There was a great bar their called Merlin Mcflys where the bar-tenders all did conjouring tricks in between serving drinks. Then after a visit to Disneyland we drove back up on???? was it Highway 405? long straight almost unending back to San Fran. Getting to drive down the very roads where “Bullet” was filmed, down that wonderful twisty road on that hill, seeing where “The Streets of San Francisco” was made, etc. A real dream come true for a young man. We’d drive over the bridge, which one now Golden Gate or Bay Bridge? along a fairly quiet road off to the right I seem to recall to Sausalito where the house boats all were, & some pretty cool houses in & around the bay on up in the hills, & nice bars there too, including an English Pub called the Golden Hind, run by of all people a couple from Exeter, UK. They served Watney’s Red Barrell beer (I won’t credit it with the term ale, it was a bit like nats’ pee to be frank), was served chilled, so we stuck our pints in front of the gas fire to take the edge off them. The lunch was excellent tho’! The people were marvelously friendly & welcoming, (& because we visited last week in July/first week in August, the fog would hang like some leviathon outside the bay much of the day, & move in during the early evening & night making it feel really strange!) we’d ask people where the sunshine was & they would respond by saying, “you should have been here last week”, it was a wonderful time. I expect it will all change beyond recognition if I returned in a few years time! A great shame indeed!

  35. In the US, particularly California, the population has the best political system that money can buy.
    The UK is already demonstrating that Green jobs do not exist.
    Could the last Californian to leave please turn off the lights, assuming you have a power supply of course

  36. Well, all you business owners can take a serious look at Texas. No State Income Tax and our Attorney General has filed suit against the EPA to stop their attempted punitive acts. Come on Down !

  37. To recall an old billboard from Seattle: ” Will the last one to leave CA please turn out the lights”?

  38. Kalifornia must be banking on getting bailed out by the Feds again.
    When all the producers have left and only the rent-seekers are left in the State, nett income will plummet.

  39. Don’t cry for California, America.
    She will be back, someday.
    But cry for the people whose dreams will be crushed by leftist nightmares and whose lives will be hurt or worse by leftist reality.

  40. In Britain, the ‘elite’ of all political parties are in favour of ‘green solutions’, sometimes these are sensible policies, mostly they are not. As always, the people have to pay for the politicians’ stupidity and guile.
    As many of the comments here point out, this vote in California will drive both wealth and real jobs out of the state. Unfortunately, we need something as large as California to demonstrate to the world, beyond any possible doubt, just how stupid and economically debilitating it is to set arbitrary carbon targets, which can only be met by inducing economic depression.

  41. Southern California has perfect weather. It is a shame it also home to far too many idealists who don’t live in the real world. I would love to live in a California without the current state government.
    Here is what may happen, emphasis on may. The California economy stays bad while the rest of the US slowly improves. Companies begin to leave because companies must make a profit. Because of all that, people that pay taxes who are not idealists and are not a drain on the system leave because they need a job. Since California has many sanctuary cities for illegal aliens, slowly Spanish will become the first language of most Californians. This will accelerate the exodus out of California. And then one day, Spanish will be the primary language of both California and Puerto Rico (if HR 2499 clears the Senate, which pretty much guarantees that Puerto Rico becomes the 51st state).
    But I’m not fortuneteller. I could be totally wrong. All I know is the California is going to continue to give money to people who don’t deserve while taking money away from people who earned it.

  42. Its hard to know from the UK whether to be pleased or dissapointed in the failure of prop 23. On the one hand, it would have been good to see the populace trash enviro nonsense, but on the other hand, there’s nothing like watching someone drown to prevent people jumping in the same lake.
    Can’t wait to see the new congress in action though, bring on the enquiries.

  43. I only feel sorry for those nearly 2 million people that wanted change and a chance to bring jobs back to California. The others can live in their own utopia island with their green police.

  44. Prop 38 – Rename California to “De Estatdo Soviet Californistan”.
    What a bunch of morons, they deserve what the get. Of course a couple million of those votes were likely illegal. Ditto with Nevada where casinos were bussing “employees” to the polls all day in support of Scary Reid.
    Well California should easily meet their green quota since just about every industry is now packing up shop to bolt outta town ASAP.
    Of course Harry Reid is even worse since that means six more years our nuclear energy program is stalled by the efforts of one d-bag.

  45. Obama is doing just fine getting himself into a war with Pakistan, he doesn’t need any help doing it with Iran I’m sure. No one is in favor of going to war with Iran except delusional marxist who like nothing more than to feel off their paranoia.

    well – would not worry, I am sure obama will be pushed into a war with iran soon by the hawks.

  46. Bad news for Canada too. A bunch of our libtard provincial governments are planning to join forces with other libtard states to push the carbon trade fraud at the provincial/state level. Was hoping Prop 23 would stop this nonsense dead in its tracks but it was not to be! Hopefully Congress can initiate some criminal investigations into the climate science fraud and really help turn public opinion!

  47. The Liberals will all sit together, hold hands and stop breathing out.
    My own Brother used to be a centre/right wing intelligent person. Since he has been living in California for the last decade, he has indulged in lots of narcotics and become impaired with an inability to rationalise and reason. He has become a democrat too. I am not sure if the two are related.
    All I do know is, that those lefty’s will steal every dollar they can from hard working families and businesses, waste it all and then cry that it is all the right wing’s fault and demand even more taxes to put it right,
    California is going to be a ghost state at this rate.
    Still, when all this madness has past by, I could buy up some real cheap property out there when the investors eventually return in 10 or 20 years time.

  48. Californians have always been unusually gullable to large scale scientific fraud – they were committed Eugenicists in their time. Love to hear from any Californian why this might be the case.
    http://www.csus.edu/cshpe/eugenics/
    http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/offSiteArchive/www.sfgate.com/
    Michael Crichton’s famous essay on the subject mentions California:
    http://www.crichton-official.com/essay-stateoffear-whypoliticizedscienceisdangerous.html

  49. I have long held the view that this ‘fight climate change and green jobs and prosperity will be yours’ nonsense would never, ever go away until the enviro’s get their way and the people are shaken out of their stupor. It will take, unfortunately, the utter destruction of California to drive the stake through the heart of this movement.
    So, in a way, Californian’s are sacrificing themselves to teach the rest of the world a lesson.

  50. Most states have restrictions in their constitutions that prohibit running budget deficits, since they can’t print money. Doesn’t California?
    Once someone defined Prop. 23 as “Suspend Pollution Laws,” the game was over. Who’s going to vote for “pollution”?
    But if you think California is nutty, try Taxachusetts, which just re-elected a tax-and-spend liberal governor, refused to cut the recently raised sales tax with a ballot question, and will now go full speed ahead with ‘Cape Wind’ (better, ‘Break Wind’), the off-shore subsidized wind farm in Nantucket Sound that will raise electricity rates something like 40%.
    This state handily re-elected the vile Barney Frank, and ‘my’ congressman, Ed Malarkey of Crap and Tax fame. The only consolation is that neither will have committee chairmanships any more.
    Time to move—Texas looks good. Warmer, too.
    /Mr Lynn

  51. The iconic ‘hockey stick’ rules supreme! There is no doubt in my mind that M Manns temperature reconstruction needs a house committee investigation, including climategate e-mails.
    Only when the full story is out on how a small group of scientists decided to fool the public can anyone expect that the ‘believing’ 50% of the population can change their minds. After all, they are not scientists.
    Not their fault, as they have been hoodwinked.

  52. This shows what kind of sheep people are. It looked like this would be voted for, but of course the sheep turn around completely after a few brainwashing ad campaigns.
    Oh well… I will watch their sucicide from the sidelines and hope the rest of the sheep wakes up when they see the results.

  53. My condolences to you Anthony and to all golden staters that care about the future of California. Here in Illinois our debt and deficit situation is just as bad, and it looks like we’ve just elected a governor (Quinn) that is hell-bent on raising state income taxes 33%. That will surely drive more businesses from our state, but at least we’re not facing economic suicide via misguided green politics.
    I’d move my excavation and concrete construction business if I could. I wouldn’t blame you or anyone else for pulling up stakes and heading to a state that “gets it”.

  54. Just some notes for y’all moving out Californea and are a comin’ to Texas.
    1. Don’t tick off people in traffic – guns are legal and encouraged.
    2. Don’t try to rob someone; even if you make it out of the house, we have a castle law that says we can shoot you in pursuit.
    3. Pot is what you put food or flowers into.
    4. Danglin’ prepositions are okay.
    5. No such thang as illegal immigrants – either an immigrant or an illegal, not both.
    6. Kill somebody in Texas and we’re goin’ to kill you back (courtesy Ron White).
    7. If it’s hot when you get here, it’s not global warming, just either spring, summer or fall.
    8. What-a-Burger is much superior to In and Out burgers.
    9. Get a Texas license plate ASAP; otherwise you’re just another revenue stream.
    10. Kinky Freidman is a radio personality, not your drug dealer.

  55. “David L says:
    November 3, 2010 at 1:35 am
    Keep in mind that statistically speaking, 50% of the people are below average. How many folks truly knew what they were voting for?”
    Then it is better that you dont vote at all.

  56. The problem is how they worded it. Who in their right mind would vote for suspending a “pollution law”? No one. That’s why it failed…

  57. Californians are so stupid.
    They reject prop 19, which would have brought business to california that would have brought in tax revenue.
    They reject prop 23, which would keep businesses from leaving due to unnecessary CO2 regulation.
    So they’ve essentially handed all the power/responsibility towards getting out of the financial mess to the people who made the mess, the senate+assembly. These are the same people who go 3-5 months overdue every year passing a budget.
    And all this while the state is practically insolvent.

  58. California? Put a fork in it. It’s done. It will be the first state, ever, to declare bankruptcy if we can keep Big O from more financial bailouts.

  59. Mike Haseler wrote:
    This is fantastic news … for anyone who is not living in California. First we’ll see the slow economic decline of California and an exodus of industry, then as the rest of the world watches in horror, it’ll the shut up the stupid greens who say green “economics” can be economically sustainable.
    Unfortunately California is Too Big to Fail (sound familiar?)…. We’ll be bailing them out for years and years and years and…

  60. If they want to return to a state of nature, which is what they want as far as I can tell, so be it. Frankly I am happy to see them governing themselves at the local level as they see fit, as long as the rest of us don’t have to bail them out via the federal government.

  61. Kate says: (November 3, 2010 at 1:08 am)
    “California … now economically and politically twinned with Britain?”
    I think a more apt economic comparison is to Greece. I, for one, will not appreciate being asked to bail out California for its self-created bankruptcy.

  62. Kum Dollison says:
    November 3, 2010 at 1:39 am
    California’s deficit is, approx, 1% of State GDP. And, they probably send that much money to Super-Duper “Low-Tax” States like my own. I think California will probably be just fine.

    That’s rich.

  63. The vote is all based on the wording of the title. How could someone vote to continue pollution?
    Now if the title was ” Defer greenhouse gas emission limits”, then it gets approved.
    It’s probably no more complicated than that.

  64. I might guess that the folks pushing for this to be approved did not get to choose the title, because if they did they are pretty darn stupid.

  65. Read all the prop’s in CA this year and the results of the state wide races:
    CA wants to let 9 liberal “citizens” re-gerrymander their districts with a commission of 5 Dems, 5 Reps and 4 Indies (go find a conservative Indie in CA today thus 9 libs). That won’t work any better; they don’t want much in the way of increased tax/fees for some areas and by requiring 2/3rds to impose them to pay for things (call them the free benefits props); they don’t want you to smoke pot in public but it’s now OK for a simple majority to pass a state budget created by liberal Dems for a liberal governor to sign.
    All in all CA will be bankrupt before Obama leaves office. Oh, and absolutely no way a CA bailout will get through Congress so look for the dynamic duo, Bernanke and Geithner to play the Laural and Hardy and find a way to sell Treasuries to CA for negative interests while buying all the CA bonds Brown wants to sell. And they’ll make it up on volume.
    The exodus had already started. Beginning with the first legislative session in Sacramento, it will accelerate. The really smart folks will be selling out starting today since property values, business values, etc., will plummet. Adios!

  66. “Californians are so stupid”
    I can only agree. I’ve live here for 48 years and have watched this stupidication process from the inside.
    I don’t know. California seems hell bent on rushing to a crisis. I sometimes think it is a pimple that just has to pop.
    Go east old man!

  67. “When the party’s over, turn out the lights…”
    The party’s definitely over for California. It’ll be interesting to watch what happens next (though I would prefer to watch from a safe distance).

  68. Mike Haseler says:
    November 3, 2010 at 1:06 am
    “This is fantastic news … for anyone who is not living in California.”
    Unfortunately, the citizens of California then move to places like Colorado and start electing the same kinds of idiots that made them leave their old state.

  69. All is not lost
    Now they have to get the new “fees” approved. Prop 26 passed.
    PROP 26
    REQUIRES THAT CERTAIN STATE AND LOCAL FEES BE APPROVED BY TWO-THIRDS VOTE. FEES INCLUDE THOSE THAT ADDRESS ADVERSE IMPACTS ON SOCIETY OR THE ENVIRONMENT CAUSED BY THE FEE-PAYER’S BUSINESS. INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.

  70. The LA Times this morning said that the Republican tsunami stopped at the California border. Actually, that was not true. It didn’t stop until it got to the coast:
    http://oi54.tinypic.com/2lbdg6w.jpg
    I imagine the results of this proposition fared similarly, and was defeated by voters from the coastal enclaves, not the interior of California.

  71. Putting prop 19 on the same ballot was a masterstroke. The hippies and stoners out in the backwoods of California never normally vote, but this got them down to the polling stations. Since they don’t really use electricity/gas anyway – or at least, don’t think they do – they all voted against 32 whilst they were there.
    See the name-recognition voting for Jerry Brown to go with it.

  72. WHO has the money to pay high-ranking Google ads to push such agenda?
    Must be pushed covertly by nuclear industry, gaz and “green energy” corporations…
    Follow the money, unearth very large dead and very stinky rats…

  73. Texans are pretty safe from California immigrants, Californians can’t stand Texas weather. We here in AZ are in danger though; So Cal is right across the border.

  74. I think I may purchase a moving van franchise in California to capitalize on the last remaining business opportunity there. Seriously, who in their right mind would stay there unless they absolutely had to?

  75. Most Californians are clearly convinced they should take the leadership in reducing CO2 emissions and that the rest of the nation will be watching closely.
    They are right, but not for the reason they imagine. The rest of the nation is watching very closely because they do not want to miss the opportunity to compete for the companies and jobs that will be relocating to other states over the next couple of years.

  76. A grand experiment under Jerry Brown omg. It will be interesting to watch the coup de gras for the state of California. An object lesson for the rest of the world.

  77. Well, the election went pretty much like I anticipated. It wasn’t as good as I had hoped, but it is better than what it was. Sadly, Cali, went in the predictable direction. Sorry, Anthony. But be of good cheer. Cali can still serve a useful purpose! They can be examples of how not to do it!
    For those that are disappointed in the results of the election, hoping for more gains by the conservatives, the single largest statement made by this election, the Illinois senate race.
    For those worried that neither political party will be able to accomplish much, gridlock is a good thing!

  78. After seeing the results this morning, I was thinking about the situation.
    40% of California’s electricity comes from other States. 4 States are in the process of suing California over the AB32 Cap & Tax issue. If the other States lose the suit, why wouldn’t they simply choose to sell the electricity to any State other than California to avoid the California regulations and Carbon Tax?
    Is there any law that states they must sell energy to California?

  79. Unfortunately this blog seems to be deteiorating – from a science based blog to another right wing blog like the horrendous Gateway Pundit!

    REPLY:
    Well now that election season is over (which many people are interested in, so damned if I do, damned if I don’t, and Prop 23 had U.S. and world repercussions) we’ll be more science based. – Anthony

  80. Dave-
    The hippies and stoners voted against Prop 19 – they want to keep pot illiegal so they don’t have to pay taxes on it.

  81. OK, on the bright side, I’m very happy to see the hyper-arrogant Nancy Pelosi lose her job as Speaker of the House….. That’s about it.
    Not only do we still have the smug Barbara Boxer as Senator, not only do we still have AB 32, the climate emissions bill that mimics the failed Kyoto treaty and will do nothing but drive more business away than it attracts, not only did J Brown win, but it looks like prop 25, which will allow the Kali govt to pass taxes with only a bare majority of the legislative vote instead of a 2/3rd majority, has also passed….. Welcome To Taxiformia!

  82. There are plenty of states that want growth. But when you exodus from California, please leave the progressive ideas behind. Cal ex-pats helped ruin Nevada by bringing all the nonsense with them.

  83. Once someone defined Prop. 23 as “Suspend Pollution Laws,” the game was over. Who’s going to vote for “pollution”?

    The problem is how they worded it. Who in their right mind would vote for suspending a “pollution law”? No one. That’s why it failed…

    That was the “toned down” description (after prop 23 backers sued). And, guess who wrote the ballot description?

    Judge Timothy Frawley agreed with backers that parts of the original language were misleading and would prejudice voters. The new language changes the description of the law’s intended target from “major polluters,” a term Frawley criticized as having “an obvious negative connotation,” to “major sources of emissions.”
    Frawley also ordered removed a reference that Proposition 23 would cause the state to “abandon” its law to control greenhouse gases. The new language will say the initiative would “suspend” the law.
    The ruling came in a lawsuit by the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers’ Assn. against state Atty. Gen. Jerry Brown, who drafted the title and summary of the initiative for the ballot. Brown, who is also the Democratic nominee for governor, called the judge’s ruling reasonable and said he would not appeal.

  84. The Anti-23 cabal outspent the Pro group 2 to 1. The Anti-23 ads promised 500,000 new “green” jobs (which don’t exist yet, and probably never will). The Pro 23 group only promised 1,000,000 actual jobs would be lost. Californians were never very good at math.
    I wonder where the Anti-23 money came from…

  85. Brad says:
    November 3, 2010 at 9:04 am
    “Unfortunately this blog seems to be deteiorating – from a science based blog to another right wing blog like the horrendous Gateway Pundit!”
    I don’t particularly care about parochial US politics not being American, nor do I play one on TV, so the recent politicization of this excellent blog is unfortunate for overseas readers, of whom there are quite a few, not preoccupied with internecine US politics.
    REPLY: “Well now that election season is over (which many people are interested in, so damned if I do, damned if I don’t, and Prop 23 had U.S. and world repercussions) we’ll be more science based.” – Anthony
    One most certainly hopes that is indeed the case.

  86. Mere dyslexia, when Calif. sees “green” in place of brown and red? “Now that’s Progressive!”

  87. The elections in California went Very Well. I could not be any happier. I am from Texas and all that is best and good about California is moving to Texas. That is why Texas has created over half of America’s jobs in the last 3 years. I really say Super Duper.

  88. Brad says:
    November 3, 2010 at 9:05 am
    Dave-
    The hippies and stoners voted against Prop 19 – they want to keep pot illiegal so they don’t have to pay taxes on it.
    …………..
    I suspect you’re right, it’s the same as when Southern counties vote on staying dry or not. Two groups always oppose alcohol, the religious prohibitionists and the moonshiners/bootleggers. Medical MJ makes it defacto legal already, simply see the “doc” at the MJ store and you have a Rx for it. Then you can buy legally or not and still have a get out of jail card for possession. So why pay taxes to the man

  89. @Alan the Brit
    The seventeenth amendment to our constitution provides for popular election of senators and calls for a special election to refill vacant seats. The states may select interim senators pending the election. All but four states provide for gubernatorial selection. Those four senate seats remain vacant until the election.

  90. “REPLY: Well now that election season is over (which many people are interested in, so damned if I do, damned if I don’t, and Prop 23 had U.S. and world repercussions) we’ll be more science based. – Anthony”
    At the end of the day, “The People have Spoken”and its not time to gather as Americans and focus on solutions.
    Decision Making needs to first define the context before determining “What Could be Occurring in relation to that which Is Not Currently Occurring but Could Be”; subtractive logic is a powerful tool.
    Science Invents or it at some point in the past it was allowed to?

  91. correction to my last comment:
    Decision Making needs to first define the context before determining “What Is Occurring in relation to that which Is Not Currently Occurring but Could Be”; subtractive logic is a powerful tool.
    At all points in the past, Science Invents and defines the opportunity.
    Shall we chat once again over passe ROEI solutions or something more insightful?

  92. While we’re at it, shall we chat about passe Kyoto Protocol AB32 climate implications or Science and logic?

  93. Don’t worry about California. That’s where many of those Chinese and other Asia-area imports arrive. The unionized dock workers and unionized truckers and other shipping companies will still have jobs, which is what is really important.
    Although it’ll be interesting to see them make do with the mandated solar-charged electric forklifts and clean hydrogen-burning tractor trailers.
    In other news, the Republican candidate for governor in Pennsylvania, blasted in campaign ads for not supporting additional taxes on the Marcellus Shale natural gas drilling operations, won. Our term-limited soon-to-be-former Democratic governor, was recently blasted in the Wall Street Journal for petulantly banning new gas drilling leases on state lands after Republicans in the state legislature blocked a new tax that would be twice as high as the current highest tax, which is in West Virginia. The gas industry is expected to generate hundred of thousands of jobs and billions in new state and local revenues already. The arguments for the new tax basically went ‘Hey, these big companies got billions invested already, they ain’t gonna walk away from that, they’ll still make lots of money!’ Think of an episode from a TV series where Mafia guys are talking about shaking down some neighborhood stores for protection money and you get the tone of the arguments.
    Looks like PA will end up doing its part in providing clean cheap energy after all.
    😉
    BTW: Obama’s press conference is the current TV background noise as I write. Some mildly interesting perhaps-conciliatory words about EPA being allowed to regulate CO2 as a greenhouse gas, which should be done in a way that doesn’t hurt the economy, creates green jobs, puts America in a stronger more-competitive position, etc. Oh, and he also made the first mention of his trip to India, which I surprised three people already today by informing them of it as the US media has been silent, which is estimated to cost $200 million a day, for ten days, and he’ll be leaving on it soon. Strange how it got no mention right before the election. ☺

  94. Watching this from Britain with some but not a great deal of knowledge of American politics: doesn’t the loss of the House mean that any projected Democrat bail-out of Ca (which it will surely need after this vote) is now highly unlikely?
    Also, has no one in Ca been paying attention to the situation in Spain? PM Zapatero’s government has immolated that country’s economy in his pursuit of ‘green’ jobs.
    A bout of ‘tough love’ in the form of a lesson in basic economic laws is sorely needed. To quote, the problem is that eventually, socialists run out of other peoples’ money.

  95. Just a note of caution for those NOT living in California. The CA mass hara kiri demonstration yesterday DOES have National and maybe International ramifications.
    (a) The Republicans did NOT take over the US Senate.
    (b) The California Suicide Pack DID re-elect Barbara Boxer to her Senate seat for a fourth six year term.
    (c) Ergo; Barbara Boxer will remain as Chairman of the Senate EPW Committee, as in Energy, and Public Works.
    So the whole Cap and tax and carbon tax, and global Climate disruption campaign is still full on.
    As for me; If I don’t get laid off before the end of the year, I will probably die right here at my desk (some day).
    Since George H. W. Bush first uttered those immortal words:- “Read My lips; NO new Taxes !”, I have been waiting for just a short breather from the total tax burden we get from all sides; and so far; no Congress or Administration has been able to close the deal. The RINO republicans who are just Democrats in drag, still haven’t met a tax that they don’t like. The Death tax comes back in spades, come Jan 1-2011; so my kids won’t be in line for anything either. Well there won’t be much left anyway.
    But a lot of discretionary Californians are already packed to exit. If my son ever graduates from school, I will be looking for either a new State or Country; because this one is on the way to being well done.
    But overall, I do think that America is actually on the mend; and maybe just in time; except it is likely to end up with only 56 States instead of 57, as CA likely reverts to Mexico.
    John McCain is still there to reach across the aisle in his usual fifth column fashion; so there still are snags in the sytem.
    But overall the real People of flyover country, did come through yesterday.
    Ca is now basically a one party State; with its famed Prop 13 house tax restraint now dead, and they only need 50% of the nearly all Democrat Legislature to wake up from their nearly legally pot stoned state to vote themselves any level of funding that their public employee union masters demand of them; and we have a senile flower child driving the car; who has already publicly declared that he doesn’t have a plan for California; he simply lied when he said that in his campaign; well at least he said that he lied.

  96. Kum Dollison says:
    November 3, 2010 at 1:39 am
    California’s deficit is, approx, 1% of State GDP. And, they probably send that much money to Super-Duper “Low-Tax” States like my own. I think California will probably be just fine.

    Comparing spending deficit too GDP is somewhat meaningless. It just means that gross dept is expanding because California is running a deficit.
    It is spending more that it receives so as the dept expands so does the cost of servicing it. California can’t print money so in order to stop the gross debt from growing, it must either increase tax income or cut spending . To increase tax income it can either hope that GDP will grow faster than spending and there by increase receipts or it can raise direct taxation.
    Gross dept as a percent of GDP gives a better view of the situation.
    http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt74/MartinGAtkins/usgs_line.png
    Since Californians seem hell bent on trashing the economy they can rule out growing GDP above spending so that leaves direct tax hikes or spending cuts. They could continue deficit spending but that could see their credit rating fall as the GDP dept ratio expands and that would increase the cost of servicing debt.

  97. @pRadio:
    Did you seriously recommend The Democratic Socialist Workers Party Peoples Republic of Maryland as an alternative? If it weren’t for all the Federal jobs (and money) in this area, it would have gone belly up long ago.

  98. Kum Dollison says:
    November 3, 2010 at 1:39 am
    California’s deficit is, approx, 1% of State GDP. And, they probably send that much money to Super-Duper “Low-Tax” States like my own. I think California will probably be just fine.
    You might want to work on your arithmetic a bit.
    http://www.usdebtclock.org/state-debt-clocks/state-of-california-debt-clock.html
    Doing it the way the nun’s taught us BITD, $150 Billion divided by $1.9 Trillion comes out at about 7.7%. When the results of yesterday’s election kick in, it’s hard to imagine that percentage heading anywhere but North. California politicians have already been laying the groundwork for a “Too Big To Fail” bailout for quite some time and O-P-R have already supplied payoffs to their public employee union backers in an attempt to forestall the inevitable Armageddon. The debt clock numbers do not include the massive overhang of the unsustainable public employee pension plans, which dwarf not only the present debt, but the entire state GDP.

  99. Here’s a link to AB 32’s actual plan: http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/scopingplan/scopingplan.htm
    And a summary of the various elements: http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/cleanenergy/clean_fs2.htm
    What businesses are being driven out of California? Increased energy costs is a burden on the consumer, it doesn’t drive away energy producers. Note that the energy restrictions apply to imports as well.
    As a real estate developer, I have personally seen the change in building efficiency standards and an increase in the solar power industry. Which, again, doesn’t hurt business as long as the standards are applied across the board.
    In general I think AB 32 is crap, but California is short on cash and it needs money to subsidize alternative energy and transportation development. So they used BS science to support taxes/fees on certain types of businesses – such is politics. I can see that it ultimately steers consumer dollars spent on one business sector into investment for another, but I can’t see how it results in a net business/job exodus.
    If someone could point me to a link that details businesses actually hurt by the “early actions” of AB 32 already in place, it would be a great help. I know of businesses that have been helped – they are getting state dollars! But hurt… I haven’t seen details for a single one. Are people referring to an exodus of consumers who don’t like the high cost of living in California? OK, I can see that.

  100. Kadaka, how can you spend $200,000,000 a day?
    For 10 days?
    $2,000,000,000 for a ten-day junket?
    I’m an AGW sceptic, and I’m also sceptical of the numbers. Crikey, that’s more than the GDP of a lot of countries! Nah! Can’t be. Show me the data.

  101. Regarding Brad says:
    November 3, 2010 at 9:05 am
    Dave-
    “The hippies and stoners voted against Prop 19 – they want to keep pot illiegal so they don’t have to pay taxes on it.”
    Brad I do not think so, prop 25 allowed a 25 Sq’ personal patch, and even taxed the price would not have risen, but show me your study that says you are correct.

  102. Kum Dollison says:
    November 3, 2010 at 1:39 am
    “California’s deficit is, approx, 1% of State GDP. And, they probably send that much money to Super-Duper “Low-Tax” States like my own. I think California will probably be just fine.”
    Dude, (I am from Calif) the pension debt of all the public unions is not even considered in this number. The 15 of 20 billion annual deficit you speak to, not including the pension deficit, is about $750 to $1,000 per tax payer, if we have 20 million tax payers.

  103. The comments by Arnold Schwarzenegger are telling. He told they crowd that “California beat Texas”, but by what measure? In the census, California has not won. By one estimate, Texas will gain 4 seats, while California loses 1. We will have to wait for the official count, but even if California keeps 53 seats, Texas has not lost.

  104. Brad you made some comments on ■Spencer on Global Warming Elitism, Tomorrow’s Election, and The Future, post then incorrectly accused this site of not allowing your post while you claimed victory, then did not respond to the many excellent posts refuting your thoughts, what gives?
    Apologies if you are not the same Brad

  105. R. de Haan says:
    November 3, 2010 at 1:14 am
    With Barbara Boxter and Harry Reid still in the seat, a Democratic Senate Majority still in tact and all Czars still in place, Proposition 23 will be seen as an encouragement to push though some kind of National Climate Legislation, even Cap & Trade during one of the infamous Lame Duck Sessions. They simply won’t give up.

    They already incorporated ARMAGEDDON!!!….Chinese will be buying zillions of tons of POPCORN !! 🙂

  106. As a Brit, I’m happy to see a little politics here.
    It is after all in the remit of the site topics and maybe some others aren’t interested in international politics, I for one am. It’s damned important for the whole World!
    Sorry Anthony but I think you’d better accelerate plans for a move. Texas looks good to me.
    Best regards.
    DaveE.

  107. Steve says:
    November 3, 2010 at 11:57 am
    If someone could point me to a link that details businesses actually hurt by the “early actions” of AB 32 already in place, it would be a great help. I know of businesses that have been helped – they are getting state dollars! But hurt… I haven’t seen details for a single one. Are people referring to an exodus of consumers who don’t like the high cost of living in California? OK, I can see that.
    Just Google “number of corporations leaving California” and you’ll find a plethora of information. This story from mid July has the number at 84
    http://jan.ocregister.com/2010/07/16/84-companies-added-to-leaving-california-list/41399/
    This one from mid October has it at 158, with 14 in the previous three weeks.
    http://republican.assembly.ca.gov/?p=media&sid=194&id=3399

  108. “”””” Steve says:
    November 3, 2010 at 11:57 am
    Here’s a link to AB 32′s actual plan: http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/scopingplan/scopingplan.htm
    And a summary of the various elements: http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/cleanenergy/clean_fs2.htm
    What businesses are being driven out of California? Increased energy costs is a burden on the consumer, it doesn’t drive away energy producers. Note that the energy restrictions apply to imports as well. “””””
    I would think that the Commerce clause of the US Constitution; would trump any California messing with imports.
    Oh I forgot; we don’t pay any heed to such guidelines

  109. Steve, I believe a number of trucking industries have already left. Soon construction and agri people are going to be hit with refits of their diesel engines. Warehouses have moved to Nevada. While Silicon Valley engineers and corporate headquarters remain, the manufacturing is outsourced to China and India. Corporate headquarters are likely to pull out due to CA taxes. Where I live the folks who are trying to sell houses haven’t had a nibble, and a lot of them have already moved out of state and left their houses empty. For those of you who want the blog to remain science oriented, you have to realize that false science has consequences, and that is a valid topic.

  110. “”””” Brad says:
    November 3, 2010 at 9:04 am
    Unfortunately this blog seems to be deteiorating – from a science based blog to another right wing blog like the horrendous Gateway Pundit! “””””
    I have found the most perfect website on the whole internet:-
    http://www.google.com
    That will take you anywhere you want to go Brad; so good luck on finding something more your style.
    [REPLY – I would add that all points of view are welcome here provided that blog policy is upheld. (We do not guarantee that any/all will agree!) Actually, that’s kind of the definition of “liberal”, is it not? Well, it used to be, anyway. Whatever happened with that? ~ Evan]

  111. In similar news, San Francisco has apparently banned McDonald’s Happy Meals, at least ones with extra goodies for the kiddies:

    (…)
    The San Francisco law would allow toys to be given away with kids’ meals that have less than 600 calories, contain fruits and vegetables, and include beverages without excessive fat or sugar.
    Backers of the ordinance say it aims to promote healthy eating habits while combating childhood obesity.
    (…)

    I wonder if puzzles and doodle games on the boxes would be considered “toys”.
    Meanwhile soda is still sold. Which is increasingly being made with “Real Sugar!” rather than corn syrup, while Sugar soars to 30-year high as supply fears grow:

    (…)
    The dramatic rise in sugar prices is causing headaches for policymakers. While sugar is widely available in the west and its price is rarely considered, it is an essential source of cheap calories in emerging economies, where surging sugar prices are driving food inflation.
    (…)

    With the US being a major producer of corn and thus corn syrup, would it really be so bad if we’d start selling more corn syrup to those “emerging economies” given our declining in-country demand, just like we did with our tobacco crops?

  112. “”””” Steve says:
    November 3, 2010 at 11:57 am
    If someone could point me to a link that details businesses actually hurt by the “early actions” of AB 32 already in place, it would be a great help. I know of businesses that have been helped – they are getting state dollars! But hurt… I haven’t seen details for a single one. Are people referring to an exodus of consumers who don’t like the high cost of living in California? OK, I can see that. “””””
    Well T.J. Rodgers; the CEO of Cyprus Semi-Conductor; and a major factor in Sun Power Systems said just yesterday that AB-32 will result in the exodus of his business from California. As of now he won’t be building any more fabs in California; and he is about down to just Engineering jobs; and he can go anywhere and hire good people to do those jobs.
    MOST pf the creative businesses in California, can move to any place on earth they want to and not miss a beat.
    Carly Fiorina, who was chastised for “laying off” 30,000 HP workers (so they say) apparently chose to not say why she did that.
    Something like 15k to 17 k of those were actually workers for Compaq Computer; a Texas company competitor of HP, that Carly bought out; thereby getting rid of one of HP’s competitors; they weren’t California jobs anyway.
    And the export of the rest of those jobs to the far east mostly; but also other States; came largely as a result of Californioa’s anti-business environment. I think I already explained that even in California, corporations do not pay taxes to anybody for any reason. And her prime directive was to grow the profits for HP investors; which along the way supports the jobs of the remaining employees.
    You can’t employ anybody if you go belly up; I know I’ve been there.

  113. Jimbo says:
    November 3, 2010 at 2:04 am
    “Every cloud has a silver lining.”
    “US Republicans seize lower house” – 3 November 2010
    “US Republicans have seized the House of Representatives in mid-term elections, dealing a severe blow to President Barack Obama’s ability to pass laws.”
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11671935
    And now when California goes tits-up the NEW US House of Repesentatives will (hopefully) not vote them the bail out money they want from the rest of us poor unwashed masses to support their costly, idiot life style.

  114. “It costs a company lots of money to pull-up roots and move, a decision not to be taken lightly. The majority of these jobs and companies will never come back. The last part tells the story we as a small business deal with every day.” — source unknown
    The following is a list that was recently sent to me. I suspect it is fairly accurate, but have not verified these. — Roger Sowell
    JOBS LEAVING CALIFORNIA
    Abraxis Health, a unit of Los Angeles-based Abraxis BioScience Inc, opened a new plant that will create 200 jobs in 2010 — in Phoenix. This follows the company’s Phoenixexpansions that occurred in 2007 and 2008.
    Alza Corp. In 2007 eliminated about 600 jobs in drug R&D while also exiting its Mountain View, Calif., HQ. At the time the company said that its 1,200-person Vacaville facility will continue to operate. But the Vacaville Reporter on Oct. 23, 2009 revealed that the plant is being offered for sale by J&J, its parent company. It’s unclear if more layoffs are in the facility’s future.
    American AVK, a producer of fire hydrants and other water-related products, moved from Fresno to Minden, Nevada.
    American Racing moved its auto-wheel production to Mexico, ending most of its 47-year operation in California.
    Apple Computer has expanded in other states, most recently with a $1 billion facility planned for North Carolina.
    Audix Corporation relocated from Redwood City, Calif., and to accommodate growth moved to a 78,000-square-foot facility in Wilson, Oregon.
    Apria Healthcare Group of Lake Forest is shifting jobs from California to Overland Park, Kansas, a K.C. Suburb.
    Assurant Inc. Cut 325 jobs in Orange County and consolidated positions in Georgia, Ohio and South Carolina.
    Automobile Club of Southern California placed 1,100 jobs in Texas.
    Barefoot Motors, a small “green” manufacturer, moved from Sonoma and will grow inAshland, Oregon.
    Bazz Houston Co., Located in Garden Grove, has slowly been building a workforce of about 35 people in Tijuana. In early 2010 the company said it expects to move more jobs toMexico, citing cost and regulatory difficulties in Southern California.
    Beckman Coulter, a biomedical test equipment manufacturer headquartered in Brea, relocated part of its Palo Alto facilities to Indianapolis, Indiana, two years ago. In early 2010, it’s making a multimillion-dollar investment to expand and create up to 100 new jobs inIndiana. The company said the area offers a “favorable business environment and lower total cost of operations, plus a local work force with strong skills in both engineering and manufacturing.”
    Bild Industries Inc., which specializes in business news, directories and market reports, moved to Post Falls, Idaho, from Van Nuys, a part of the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles.
    Bill Miller Engineering, Ltd., suffering under the “hostile business climate” in Californiaand Los Angeles County, moved from Harbor City to Carson City, Nevada.
    BMC Select has conducted an unusual relocation. The company, which had shifted its headquarters from Idaho to San Francisco, relocated its H.Q. Back to Boise in January 2010. The building materials distributor said that regaining its footing in Boise retained access to high-quality employees while reducing wage and occupancy costs.
    BPI Labs, which formulates, manufactures, and fills personal care products for the health and beauty industry, relocated from Sacramento to Evanston, Wyoming, a move the company’s owner called “very successful . . . It felt good and we�ve never looked back.
    Buck Knives after 62 years in San Diego moved to Post Falls, Idaho.
    CalPortland Cement has announced in late 2009 closure of its Riverside County plant because of new environmental regulations from a state law (AB 32). The company’s CEO wrote, “A cement plant cannot be picked up and moved, but the next new plant probably won�t be built in California meaning more good, high paying manufacturing jobs will be lost to Nevada or China or somewhere.”
    California Casualty Group left San Mateo for Colorado, cutting operating costs to remain competitive.
    CalStar Products Inc., headquartered in Newark, Calif., in the San Francisco Bay Area, in January 2010 was awarded $2.44 million in federal clean energy tax credits. The company said in the future it expects to build additional plants in the Mississippi Valley and the East Coast. In late 2009 CalStar opened a plant in Caledonia, Wisconsin.
    Checks-To-Go moved to Utah where workers’ comp rates helped make the troubled company healthier.
    Chivaroli & Associates, a healthcare-related insurance service based in Westlake Village,Calif., moved a regional office to Spokane, Washington.
    CoreSite, A Carlyle Company, is delaying a Santa Clara project while it expands its data center in Reston, Virginia.
    Creators Syndicate may flee L.A. because it operates like a Banana Republic.
    Creel Printing Left Costa Mesa for Las Vegas and So Cal loses 60 more jobs.
    Dassault Falcon looked at building an aircraft services facility in Riverside County but instead located in Reno.
    DaVita Inc., moved its HQ from Los Angeles to Denver; expects to see millions of dollars in savings over time.
    Dennys Corp., the large restaurant chain once had its headquarters in La Mirada, later in Irvine, Calif, and then moved to Spartanburg, South Carolina. In fairness, I note the move occurred in the early 1990’s. However it’s noteworthy because the company was founded in California and its growth over time created HQ jobs in another state.
    Digital Domain, the Academy-Award-winning visual effects studio based in Venice, Calif, placed new studios in Vancouver, British Columbia, and Port St. Lucie, Florida, which combined will have about 500 employees. The facilities will allow the company to reduce costs while continuing to deliver cutting-edge work.
    Ditech, headquartered in Costa Mesa, announced in January 2010 a 269-job cut and is moving most activities to the GMAC Financial Services (parent company) headquarters in Fort Washington, Pennsylvania. In 2007, Ditech relocated some workers from Costa Mesa toPhoenix. A once robust Costa Mesa facility employing hundreds will be down to 20 or 30 workers.
    DuPont Fabros Technology suspended a $270 million Santa Clara data center project in favor of one in Ashburn, Virginia.
    eBay, based in San Jose, will create 450 jobs in Draper, Utah, in a new $334 million operations, customer support and data center.
    EDMO Distributors, Inc., a world-wide wholesaler of aircraft avionics, test equipment, and pilot supplies, moved its HQ from Valencia, Calif., to Spokane Valley, Wash. Since, it has built a larger headquarters in the city’s Mirabeau Point community complex.
    Edwards Lifesciences based in Irvine will expand with 1,000 employees not in California but in Draper, Utah.
    EMRISE Corp. completed its HQ move from Rancho Cucamonga to Eatontown, NJ, in May 2009. The company said the move “will result in additional annualized cost savings of approximately $1 million and facilitate improvements in operating efficiency”. . . . The cost savings associated with relocating our corporate headquarters will start immediately. . . The aggregate total of these expense reductions will increase our profitability and cash flow in this and succeeding years and, over time, substantially improve our ability to further reduce our long term debt.
    Facebook, based in Palo Alto, will expand in a major way in Oregon by locating a custom data center in Prineville. It will be a 147,000-square-foot facility costing $180 million and will employ 200 workers during construction and another 35 full-time once operating in 2011.
    FallLine Corporation Left Huntington Beach, where they were being “hammered” with multiple governmental regulatory fees, for Reno, Nevada.
    Fidelity National Financial left Santa Barbara for Florida, spurred by California’s “oppressive” business environment.
    First American Corp., based in Santa Ana, will open a call center in March 2010 not in California but in Phoenix, where it expects to employ about 400 people within two years.
    Fluor Corp. moved its global headquarters from Aliso Viejo to Irving, Texas, with about 100 employees asked to relocate while the company planned to hire the same number there. In 2006, when Fluor moved into its new headquarters building, a company statement said: “The official dedication had a decidedly Texas theme” as a horseshoe was raised on the building, a time-honored Texas tradition. NEWSALERT – LAST I HEARD, WHEN I WORKED ON A JOINT PROJECT WITH THEM, THEY ARE NOW PLANNING TO LEAVE ALISO VIEJO AS WELL.
    Foxconn Electronics, a large contract electronics maker, moved some of its Fullerton operations to Dallas.
    Fox Family moved its farming operations to Cookeville, TN. All employees moved with the firm.
    Fuel System Solutions moved its headquarters from Santa Ana to New York.
    Gregg Industries, owned by Neenah Enterprises Inc., in Wisconsin, closed a 300-employee foundry in El Monte foundry under pressure from the South Coast Air Quality Management District to make $5 million in upgrades. The company didn�t want to make the investment in the difficult economic climate so it decided instead to leave the state.
    Helix Wind Inc. may move its research and development, engineering, and testing departments from San Diego to “more supportive” Oregon.
    Hewlett-Packard, HQ’d in Palo Alto, at various times has moved jobs to Tennessee and Texas.
    Hilton Hotels Corp. in 2009 is moving from its longtime corporate H.Q. in Beverly Hills to a new office in Tysons Corner, Virginia.
    Hino Motor Manufacturing USA moved from California to Williamstown, West Virginia, in 2007, where it now employs about 100 workers. The company has growth plans to “Raise Hino�s presence from medium-heavy/heavy-duty trucks to all ranges of trucks” and an aggressive program to improve fuel economy and emissions. The company builds trucks under its own brand and also manufactures Toyota-branded vehicles.
    Intel Corporation, HQ�d in Santa Clara, has chosen to expand operations in neighboring states
    Intuit of Mountain View created a customer support office (110 people) not in Californiabut in Colorado because of lower operating costs.
    Intuit placed a data center near Quincy, Washington.
    Intuit also located Innovative Merchant Solutions LLC in Las Vegas as part of a $1.8 million investment in Nevada.
    J.C. Penney closed it Sacramento call center and moved the work to five out-of-state centers.
    Kimmie Candy Co., a manufacturer that was started in 1999, moved from Sacramento to Nevada in 2005. “I really don’t have a lot of regrets about moving up to Reno,” said owner Joe Dutra.
    Klaussner Home Furnishings in closing its La Mirada manufacturing plant will maintain its NC and Iowa operations.
    Knight Protective Industries moved to Oregon “where 4-day work weeks were permitted by the state” and wanted by the employees.
    Kulicke & Soffa Industries Inc. announced in February 2010 that it is closing its Irvineplant, laying off 56 people, and will shift the work to Malaysia and Singapore. The facility had been owned by Orthodyne Electronics Corp., which Kulicke & Soffa bought in 2008.
    LCF Enterprises, which makes specialized high-end amplifiers used by researchers, medical professionals and others, moved from Camarillo, Calif., to Post Falls, Idaho.
    Lennox Hearth Products Inc., in Orange, Calif., will lay off 71 workers and by March 2010 will transfer the jobs to Nashville and Union City, Tennessee, “to reduce costs and increase operating efficiencies.”
    Lyn-Tron, Inc., a supplier of electronic hardware, moved from Los Angeles to Spokane, Wash. Their website has a rather California(ish) statement: “Our commitment is to maintain a manufacturing environment that is progressive and safe, where our employees are able to achieve their personal objectives, thereby adding to their quality of life and to the community in which they live.”
    Mariah Power, a “green” manufacturer of small wind turbines, moved from California toNevada and in 2009 teamed up with another company to begin production in Manistee,Michigan.
    Maxwell America, a boating equipment maker, in February 2010 closed its Santa Ana offices and moved them to Hanover, Md. One reason given was the indirect impact ofCalifornia environmental regulations. A company official said over the years many Californiaboat builders relocated to the Midwest and East where they don’t face the same restrictions.
    MiaSolé, based in the Silicon Valley, was reported in January 2010 to be planning a 500,000-square-foot plant, which could be one of the largest solar factories in the United States. The location is not near its in Santa Clara headquarters but in the Atlanta, Georgia, area where its workforce eventually could exceed 1,000. The news came one week after MiaSolé received $101.8 million in federal tax credits.
    MotorVac Technologies announced in February 2010 that it’s leaving Santa Ana forOntario, Canada. MotorVac’s CEO said he “really fought hard to keep MotorVac here, but unfortunately the numbers didn�t support it. “The move cuts costs because it’s new owner, UView, has its own plant with excess capacity in Canada. And the general cost of doing business in California is much more expensive.
    Nissan North America moved its Los Angeles headquarters to Nashville, Tenn.
    Northrop Grumman by 2011 will relocate its Los Angeles H.Q. to the Washington, DCmetro area. It’s the last major aerospace company to leave Southern California, the birthplace of the aerospace industry.
    One2Believe, a specialty religious-toy maker, left California for East Aurora, New York.
    Patmont Motor Werks, Inc., (GoPed manufacturer), after being hit by California regulators for hundreds of thousands of dollars in small fines even though his company has a stellar safety record, moved to Nevada.
    Paragon Relocation Resources moved from Rancho Santa Margarita to Irving, Texas.
    Pixel Magic, headquartered in Toluca Lake, Calif., (Los Angeles metro area), is locating a studio in Lafayette, Louisiana, where it will create 40 new jobs between 2010 and 2013. The company, which provides digital effects for motion pictures and television, said the Louisianapeople they were in contact with have an immediate understanding of technology and data handling.
    Plastic Model Engineering, Inc., a custom plastic injection molder and mold manufacturer, moved from Sylmar, Calif., to the “Inland Northwest,” notably Post Falls,Idaho.
    Precor will stop manufacturing fitness machines in California and re-open in North Carolina.
    Premier Inc.,the largest healthcare alliance in the nation, will move its HQ from San Diego to Charlotte, involving an investment of $17.7 million and adding 300 jobs in North Carolina. The announcement was made Oct. 14, 2009.
    Pro Cal of South Gate, in Los Angeles County, a unit of Myers Industries, expanded itsSparks, Nev., operations to become the company�s primary West Coast production and distribution facility. Pro Cal is a plastics manufacturer of nursery containers and a big recycler.
    Race Track Chaplaincy of America started 2010 by shifting its headquarters from Los Angeles to Lexington, Kentucky. The non-profit group said it had wanted to relocate from the Hollywood Park Race Track for several reasons, one of which is the significant cost of doing business on the West Coast.
    Red Truck Fire & Safety Company left Fresno for Minden, Nevada in 2007 because of California�s myriad fees and regulations that meant “death by thousand cuts.”
    SAIC will move its headquarters east, from San Diego to McLean, Virgina, which the Washington Post called “Another Coup for Area.” The announcement was made Sept. 24, 2009; it is unclear how many employees will move east in 2009 and 2010.
    Scale Computing, a data-storage developer and manufacturer, is leaving Silicon Valley for Indiana.
    Schott Solar Inc. will close its sales and customer service office in Roseville and will relocate the office to Albuquerque, NM.
    SimpleTech transferred its manufacturing work from Santa Ana to Asia more than a year ago.
    Smiley Industries, an aerospace manufacturer, moved to Phoenix, where productivity improved.
    Solaicx, based in the Silicon Valley, said in early 2010 that it will expand its manufacturing plant in Portland, Oregon. Solaicx received $18.2 million in federal tax credits as part of Washington’s efforts to advance green energy.
    SolarWorld, a maker of solar technology founded in Camarillo, consolidated manufacturing in Oregon after that state offered property tax abatement and business energy tax credits. The company will employ about 1,000 in Oregon by 2011
    Special Devices Inc., brought 250 jobs to Mesa, Arizona, from Moorpark, Calif.
    StarKist headquarters is leaving San Francisco for Pittsburgh, Pa. (Pelosi’s Husband’s Company)
    Stasis Engineering moved from Sonoma County to West Virginia, a “friendlier business climate.”
    Stata Corp., which specializes in data analysis and statistical software, moved from Santa Monica, California to College Station, Texas.
    Tapmatic, a metalworking firm whose owners were “fed up with the onerous business environment,” moved from Orange County, California to Post Falls in northern Idaho.
    Teledesic moved to Washington state in anticipation of better capital gains.
    Telmar Network Technology Inc., moved from Irvine to Plano, Texas, consolidating some 150 workers there.
    Terremark postponed a Santa Clara project earlier this year to invest $50 million in a Culpeper, Va., project.
    Terumo Cardiovascular Systems is moving R&D from Orange County to Ann Arbor,Michigan, involving 65 jobs and $3.5 million in investments.
    Toyota will stop making cars in Fremont, will idle 4,700 workers, and move work toCanada and San Antonio, Texas.
    True Games Interactive Inc., will its H.Q. from Irvine to Austin, Texas, where it expects to have about 60 workers by the middle of 2010.
    TTM Technologies will leave L.A. & Hayward and move to other states and China to achieve big cost savings.
    Twentieth Century Props of L.A. has gone out of business as film-making has moved to lower-cost states
    Understand.com moved from the San Francisco Bay Area to Reno, a loss for California in that the company is a leader in web-based patient education content and shows strong growth. The company was named 2007 Innovator of the Year by a Northern publication and the company’s founder and received a media and Reno-Tahoe Young Professionals Network 20 Under 40 award and was selected as a 20/20 Business Visionary by Nevada Business Magazine.
    US Airways is realigning operations and California is no longer considered part of its “core.” The airline is closing its John Wayne Airport maintenance station and in early 2010 will redistribute the mechanics across its system.
    US Press shifted work from Los Angeles and San Diego to Portland, “where union rules were almost rational.”
    USAA Insurance closed its 625-person Sacramento campus in favor of other states.
    Yahoo opened a data center in Quincy, Washington, a community that now hopes to land high-tech manufacturing.

  115. California.
    You can’t use the obamanotor’s ditch metaphor for this one. It’s more like a canyon they’re heading for. The pedal was already to the metal. Now, governor moonbeam and the box lady are just pushing harder on the pedal. Like the obaminator, they want the rest of us to ride in the back of this bus as it careens over the cliff into the canyon. But, we’re bailing out the rear emergency exit.
    Don’t look for the rest of us to vote for any idiots who would throw any of our Chinese-supplied money down this rat hole.

  116. Maybe some of the CA businesses planning to move to TX can spread the wealth to some of the other states with even lower taxes. Try some of the other states where a $1,000,000 CA house won’t even get built because its 900 ft^2 is smaller than a walk-in closet in a $150,000 house in a lot of the South. And, the annual property tax on it is measured in $100’s, not $10,000’s.

  117. Well thanks for the links and lists of companies leaving or having left California, but I didn’t see references as to how AB 32 was the cause of any of them (which was my question).
    The goal regarding “effect on the California economy” would be to show a track of California’s GDP over the years and calculate how that would have looked without AB 32. Saying AB 32 results in a net business/job loss does not actually show that AB 32 actually did that. It is rhetoric, and without some hard backup it isn’t compelling enough for me to admit that it’s true. Kinda like global warming.

  118. “Unfortunately, the citizens of California then move to places like Colorado and start electing the same kinds of idiots that made them leave their old state.”
    but Bern… the people leaving leave because of the politics. It’s a distillation process, the repubs leave and the dims (and apathetics) stay.
    I’m thinking Pagosa Springs is looking better and better. I’d have to get used to that white stuff though.

  119. @ Steve,
    “The goal regarding “effect on the California economy” would be to show a track of California’s GDP over the years and calculate how that would have looked without AB 32. Saying AB 32 results in a net business/job loss does not actually show that AB 32 actually did that. It is rhetoric, and without some hard backup it isn’t compelling enough for me to admit that it’s true. Kinda like global warming.:
    AB 32’s full effects have not yet occurred, as the law has dozens of aspects, each of which phase in by different degrees at different times. As of this writing, little of AB 32 has actually “kicked in.” The escalation of renewable power plants is one such aspect, with the requirement of 20 percent renewable electricity by 12/31/2010. There are a few others, known as “early action items.” Cap-and-trade, for example, begins in 2012 and will be fully phased in by 2020.
    The businesses that have left already did so for a variety of reasons, all of which are well-known in California, and presumably known elsewhere. The list of reasons that California is an anti-business state includes high real estate prices, high electric power prices, high taxes or all kinds, high workers’ compensation insurance, high legal fees and people who sue over the smallest harm, uneducated high school graduates who require expensive on-the-job remedial education and training, extremely burdensome state and local regulations, meddlesome regulatory authorities, and one of the most important: high employee attrition due to young men and women who get a job in California, meet, mate, and want to raise a family but find the cost of a detached home is beyond their means. These people quit and move to more enticing areas, taking their skills and training with them.
    AB 32 is known to increase a number of those items just listed: electric power prices, cost of a new home, taxes or tax-substitutes in the form of cap-and-trade, more layers of regulators who will audit, inspect, and meddle, among others. Until the federal government adopted the California vehicle mileage standards, AB 32 would have also increased the cost of buying a new car. The cost of cars is going up, but it will now do no good to buy in another state, as the mileage standards are nationwide.
    It doesn’t take much in the way of intelligence to realize that AB 32 will make the business environment worse, much worse than it is presently. Unless, of course, one’s business is making or selling any of the products or services mandated by AB 32. Solar panels come to mind.
    I hope this helps.

  120. Steve says:
    November 3, 2010 at 5:08 pm
    Well thanks for the links and lists of companies leaving or having left California, but I didn’t see references as to how AB 32 was the cause of any of them (which was my question).
    The goal regarding “effect on the California economy” would be to show a track of California’s GDP over the years and calculate how that would have looked without AB 32. Saying AB 32 results in a net business/job loss does not actually show that AB 32 actually did that. It is rhetoric, and without some hard backup it isn’t compelling enough for me to admit that it’s true. Kinda like global warming.
    Steve let me try this simply. If you raise the cost of energy, you raise the cost of business. If you also raise the cost of the state administrating business you must raise taxes. Some of those taxes will be direct business costs, some will be employee paid. Employees also consider this (net salary) when considering where to work, as well as the cost of living, thus demanding higher salries in some states, further increasing business costs. A question for you, do you think this legislation will not raise the cost of energy?

  121. BTW Roger, the solar panel manufacturing will probably be exported. The sales, installation and transportation will of course be local, all subsidized by additional taxes, coorporate and private.

  122. A business relocation coach is needed in California?
    http://www.businessrelocationcoach.com/Sacramento_Speech.html
    Often, California business people feel like Rodney Dangerfield – “I get no respect!”
    I offer you Los Angeles as an example. The company is Creators Syndicate and Rick Newcombe is its president. He met with Los Angeles officials about an outrageous business tax reclassification, which by the way is a speech in and of itself. When Mr. Newcombe and his wife walked into a meeting with city officials, an employee greeted them as “The enemy!” The enemy? The city employees in the room laughed.
    End
    Of course they can laugh,it is never their salary or retirement that is affected.

  123. david said on November 3, 2010 at 10:34 pm:

    BTW Roger, the solar panel manufacturing will probably be exported. The sales, installation and transportation will of course be local, all subsidized by additional taxes, coorporate and private.

    I await the development of “Solar Trailers”, photovoltaic panel systems assembled in more economically-friendly areas on road-legal trailer bases, wheeled to the location and parked at the right orientation, which will get plugged in with the same connector used for portable home generators. “In theory” with the inverter and other electronics installed on the trailer there will only be minor electrical work needed on site, especially if you’re skipping special metering and just sending the excess generated current through the normal meter to the grid. Being portable they’ll also duck certain permitting and zoning requirements, as well as frustrating the “homeowners associations,” unless the authorities get really picky. Assembled in Texas or perhaps even Mexico, transported to and sold in California. Should be significantly cheaper than a permanent installation, great for residential use, and also for companies wanting clean green “carbon offsets” and such as they can be deployed on vacant lots with cheap leases and quickly moved to even-cheaper land or to where they’re paying even higher rates for green electricity.
    They’ll also transport well to their new locations when their owners decide it’s time to evacuate California, for whatever very good reason pops up. Just latch the trailer to the hitch ball on the Prius, and take your free energy with you to wherever you go. Heck, hitch a solar trailer to a plug-in electric car, and you could drive clear across the country without using any fossil fuels at all! ☺

  124. The US needs to prepare to SELL California to Mexico in exchange for a few multi-trillion dollar payment for, say, three decades. (The US can repossess for non-payment, of course.) A far-sighted win-win arrangement, what with the entitlement’s crisis coming, I say.

  125. Green jobs are an important part of the recovery of California. Not surprisingly, Californians would like to cut down on the air pollution that causes ashma and other health problems among their children.

  126. BillD says:
    November 4, 2010 at 3:28 am
    “Green jobs are an important part of the recovery of California. Not surprisingly, Californians would like to cut down on the air pollution that causes ashma and other health problems among their children.”
    Bill, can you show me the research that shows anything but particulates is affecting children with ashma. Certainly CO2 is not. Also have you heard of misallocation of resources?

  127. “”””” Roger Sowell says:
    November 4, 2010 at 10:18 am
    @ david, re solar panels manufacturing sites,
    Please see Solyndra in the news, New York Times article below, which states the California solar panel plant is reducing capacity due to overseas competition. “””””
    Well that may be what Solyndra says; they should have added that so far, since opening their doors; they haven’t made a brass razoo in real profits; and they likely never will.
    More efficient solar technologies is more likely the reason they are shutting down plants and laying off workers. Now didn’t Californians just vote themselves a whole slew of “Green ” Jobs.
    Currently there’s maybe 50 “black” oil jobs in California for every “green” job and Californians just voted to chase those black oil jobs (along with their energy) out of the state, and replace every 50 of them with one green job. The difference is that the black oil jobs atually provide a net energy, AND make a profit. It’s not likely those green jobs will do either of those things.
    Solyndra is just the latest player (and I use the term advisedly) to face the economic realities of free clean green renewable alternative energy.

  128. “”””” david says:
    November 4, 2010 at 4:16 am
    BillD says:
    November 4, 2010 at 3:28 am
    “Green jobs are an important part of the recovery of California. Not surprisingly, Californians would like to cut down on the air pollution that causes ashma and other health problems among their children.”
    Bill, can you show me the research that shows anything but particulates is affecting children with ashma. Certainly CO2 is not. Also have you heard of misallocation of resources? “””””
    As a life long Asthmatic, I can assure Bill D, that CO2 DOES NOT cause or induce asthma. Enough of it, may eventually asphyxiate one; whether asthmatic or not; but it won’t bring on an asthma attack.
    MTBE used as a fuel “Oxygenate” most certainly DOES bring on asthma attacks; and my childhood asthma returned as an adult for the duration of California’s CARB and that moron Mary Nichols experiment on us with MTBE laced gasoline; until we fought them to get rid of it. (my first foray, into grass roots activism); and that bunch of dummies; none of whom is a scientist simply replaced the MTBE with an equally unneeded Oxygenate, in the form of ETHANOL.
    My car; and every one I have ever owned contains a machine whose purpose it to “Oxygenate” the fuel, to create heat with which to operate my car; they call it “The Engine”, and it does a wonderful job of Oxygenating gasoline.
    Lemme guess Bill; you also don’t have a problem with THE STATE adding a poison in the form of Calcium Fluoride to ALL of California’s water so that 0.0000000001% of it can be used by the candy inebriated rug rats who can’t be bothered to brush their teeth. Why not add cough mixture; and Omega-3 fish oil; and say Aspirin or Tylenol to the water to take care of the little kiddies.
    But be sure to tell us exactly what all your do put in out water for compulsory medication because industry will need to know that so they can remove all your crap out of 99.999999999% of the water so it is fit to use in their profit making enterprises to provide taxable jobs to keep Mary Nichols and other idiots like her off the dole.
    Unfortunately; some of our gasoline now get oxygenated in the refinery or cocktail mixing plant; which results in some of the energy being lost there; so I have to use even more gasoline; with even more of that destructive ethanol in it.

  129. Roger Sowell says:
    November 3, 2010 at 7:43 pm
    “It doesn’t take much in the way of intelligence to realize that AB 32 will make the business environment worse, much worse than it is presently. Unless, of course, one’s business is making or selling any of the products or services mandated by AB 32. Solar panels come to mind. I hope this helps.”
    No, not really, since your post was essentially a reiteration of what I already said. AB 32 will focus consumer dollars from one business sector into another – that is a given. My specific question was to how AB 32 has been shown (in data, or reports) to have specifically been the cause of a loss of California business and whether there is any good analysis showing that the net change is a drop in California’s GDP. A study is available to the public, which claims the exact opposite, but it is beyond my ability to peer review it. See http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/scopingplan/document/scopingplandocument.htm, specifically the appendices for the “science”. I am looking for a peer review report that contradicts the scoping plan report findings, not more rhetoric.
    david says:
    November 3, 2010 at 10:28 pm
    “Steve let me try this simply. If you raise the cost of energy, you raise the cost of business. If you also raise the cost of the state administrating business you must raise taxes. Some of those taxes will be direct business costs, some will be employee paid. Employees also consider this (net salary) when considering where to work, as well as the cost of living, thus demanding higher salries in some states, further increasing business costs. A question for you, do you think this legislation will not raise the cost of energy?”
    You left out “most will be consumer paid.” I have no doubt that AB 32 will raise energy costs in the short term, but I have no idea what this rise will be compared to the rise in energy costs that was going to happen anyway (supply/demand). For the long term it may reduce energy costs – that’s the goal, anyway. For a detailed economic analysis of energy cost reductions by 2020 (full implementation), see Appendix G of the scoping plan I referenced above.
    david says:
    November 4, 2010 at 4:16 am
    “Bill, can you show me the research that shows anything but particulates is affecting children with ashma. Certainly CO2 is not. Also have you heard of misallocation of resources?”
    Anthony’s article on AB 32 misrepresented the science when he stated “The kid with the inhaler is a nice touch, don’t you think? There’s no science here, AB32 it’s about limiting CO2 and other GHG’s, not particulates!” It is generally correct to say that AB 32 is not “about” limiting particulates, but the fact is that limiting GHG emissions will limit particulates. It’s damn near impossible, in the current industrial market, to reduce one without reducing the other. Again, see the report I referenced above. To contradict Anthony’s claim, the study specifically states (page 16 of the PDF) “Almost 12,000 incidences of asthma and lower respiratory symptoms will be avoided.” Anthony went on to say,”And I used to think the Lung Association was a straight shooter. With this ad, they’ve reached a slimy low. They are off my list of charities now. They should be off everyone’s.” He should have read the science before he criticized them so vehemently. They based their ad off of someone else’s science, so if there was any slime involved it wasn’t theirs.
    In general I agree that the claim of AB 32 reducing “global warming side effects” is based on half-assed science. Supporters take a very simple proposition, that a GHG increase will result in increased temperatures, and then run with it, blaming any possible effect on said cause (the shotgun approach). Simple logic is used to make a reasonable hypothesis, but to prove the hypothesis you have to carry the science all the way through. As to how AB 32 will affect California, I see that Anthony and others are guilty of the same error they deride others for. At least read the science before you make the opposite claim with nothing but pure rhetoric on your side!

  130. @ Steve,
    “I am looking for a peer review report that contradicts the scoping plan report findings, not more rhetoric.”
    The Scoping Plan you refer to has been widely criticized by many experts, yet CARB plowed right ahead with their regulations. The economic peer review found that the Scoping Plan’s claims were wildly wrong.
    For the energy predictions in the Scoping Plan, again they are hopelessly optimistic. Homeowners will use 40 percent less electricity compared to 1990? Really? Power prices will increase “only” 13 percent by 2020? Really? Future prices of oil and natural gas will increase so much that renewable power will be cheap in comparison? Really? Given the very low cost of natural gas (due to a world-wide glut), and the fact that crude oil futures are not expensive (indicating no sign of a shortage), there is no basis for the claim.
    Next, you assert that “but the fact is that limiting GHG emissions will limit particulates. It’s damn near impossible, in the current industrial market, to reduce one without reducing the other.”
    No, that is simply not true. Particulate emissions have been reduced over the decades while CO2 emissions have increased. Many industrial processes were forced to install particulate traps of various designs to meet requirements of the Clean Air Act. Fuel selection, burner selection, combustion box attributes, stack scrubbers, even ambient air temperature and quality all impact CO2 emissions and, separately, particulate emissions.
    It appears that you read then blindly trust the “science” in CARB’s Scoping Plan. It is not science, it is agenda-driven bunkum. All CARB must do is find peer-reviewed science – any peer-reviewed science will do. They are not required to use the best science, i.e. that which most closely follows known laws of physics. Their “science” is very, very shaky at best.
    Re reading the science, we do read the science, or what is trotted out all dressed up as science. It is mainly Bad Science, or BS.

  131. Nice try Steve, but Roger Sowell is right. AB32 has no redeeming features, and it is based on pseudoscience that says carbon dioxide is a pollutant. It isn’t. Without the pollution argument there is no reason to hobble the state economically with AB32.
    Other than the loss of Prop 23, the election was on balance a good one, with one big loser.

  132. Roger Sowell says:
    November 4, 2010 at 1:27 pm
    “The Scoping Plan you refer to has been widely criticized by many experts, yet CARB plowed right ahead with their regulations. The economic peer review found that the Scoping Plan’s claims were wildly wrong.”
    Well that refers to peer review, but you don’t actually point me towards any peer review. Am I supposed to accept your word blindly? And for someone who already stated that little of AB 32 has actually kicked in, what regulations, exactly has CARB “plowed right ahead with?”
    “No, that is simply not true. Particulate emissions have been reduced over the decades while CO2 emissions have increased.”
    Yes, reducing particulates without reducing GHG emissions is relatively simple – a filter will do. In the context of AB 32, it should have been fairly obvious that I was referring to the process of lowering GHG emissions without also lowering particulates.
    “It appears that you read then blindly trust the “science” in CARB’s Scoping Plan.”
    Well I actually pointed you to the science, which is a hell of a lot more than you are doing for me. It appears that you blindly disagree with the science. I am willing to question it if you can point me to a comparably exhaustive peer reviewed report. I am certainly not going to believe blindly in your rhetoric. How am I supposed to counter such comprehensive analysis such as “hopelessly optimistic”, “really?” and “pure bunkum”?
    “Re reading the science, we do read the science, or what is trotted out all dressed up as science. It is mainly Bad Science, or BS.”
    Your comments didn’t make any mention of the allegedly faulty science before I brought it up, nor who debunked it and how. Your additional failure to provide links pointing to helpful analysis that debunks the report gives your tirade the reek of BS.

  133. Thank you California for voting down prop23. The coming year would have been a lean laughter year in the WUWT community if we didn’t have wacky Califorina to laugh at. We now get to watch CA self destruct as it tries to impliment it’s short sighted plans to save the planet and bankrupt itself. I think they call what we in the community are about to experienc; shadenfrenfreude.
    P.S.
    The planet doesn’t need saving, the people do.

  134. @ Steve,
    Not a tirade, but an accurate analysis of the junk that is AB 32.
    You ask for links to peer review. No, since you are too lazy to go find it yourself, I won’t do it for you. However, I will suggest that you use an internet browser, Google has one of those, and input the words scoping plan peer review. Have a good read on those links you will find there.
    For peer-reviewed articles that debunk the idea that man-made CO2 causes the earth to heat catastrophically, I suggest you look around here on WUWT, as there have been a number of posts on that very topic. I seem to remember that there are more than 400 such articles, or papers, on that list.
    For good, solid evidence that I used and still use, to show that adjusting CO2 in the atmosphere will not and cannot change the earth’s temperature, I refer you to my own blog, and the most-viewed post on that blog – most by a long shot. This refers to, and explains the recent letter of Dr. Pierre R. Latour, PhD in Chemical Engineering, P.E. in chemical engineering and control system engineering. Dr. Latour explains why adjusting CO2 cannot be used to control the earth’s temperature, because to do so would violate several requisites of process control engineering. By the way, Dr. Latour is world-renowned as an expert, and no one ever violates the fundamentals of process control. Never. It cannot be done. With that short introduction, here is the website: (and no, I get zero funds from that website).
    http://sowellslawblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/chemical-engineer-takes-on-global.html
    Dr. Latour later wrote another letter about one year later on the same topic, and I again featured that in a blog post, which you may want to also read:
    http://sowellslawblog.blogspot.com/2010/03/chemical-engineer-slams-global-warming.html
    Finally, it is quite clear that the scientists who maintain that CO2 in the atmosphere causes global warming cannot explain why some cities have zero warming over more than a century, yet others have some apparent warming. One of the fundamental tenets of process control is that if a system is controllable, it must behave consistently and reliably. In the context of CO2 and global warming, it is not possible for CO2 to cause warming in some cities yet no warming at all in nearby cities. I investigated this and posted results on my blog. See this entry, and other entries near that time.
    http://sowellslawblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/usa-cities-hadcrut3-temperatures.html
    You may remain convinced that the world will soon overheat from an excess of CO2, and that is your right to believe whatever you choose. I also wanted to believe that, because if there is a problem, it will be the chemical engineers who fix it. My clients are chemical engineers, primarily. I investigated deeply and found that no problem exists. None at all.

  135. Michael,
    The problem is that you [if you are an American taxpayer] will have to pay for California’s failure. Obama has repeatedly demonstrated that he is president only of Democrats by taking sides, for example his arbitrary shutting down of hundreds of GM dealerships located in Republican districts – while keeping those in Democrat districts open. [And IANAR.]
    When California requires a bailout caused by AB32’s ridiculous mandate to radically reduce “carbon” emissions, it will be bailed out by all Federal taxpayers. Meaning you and everyone else. California is way far Left; Obama’s kind of people. If it were Texas they wouldn’t get a dime.
    Steve:
    The issue is not particulates like soot [although that should be the issue]. AB32 is mainly about GHG’s, specifically, carbon dioxide.
    However, you will notice that the current climate was seriously warmer than now numerous times over the past 10,000 years. In fact, today’s climate is right in the middle of normal. With a 40% increase in CO2, nothing unusual is occurring; there is no global warming out of the ordinary, but agricultural productivity is rising due to the added trace gas. Observations show conclusively that the added CO2 is harmless and beneficial.
    The onus is not on scientific skeptics to prove anything; the onus is on alarmists, who believe that the climate is outside its past parameters due to added CO2. It is not, as anyone can see.
    The alarmists have failed miserably to falsify the null hypothesis of natural climate variability. But the alternative CO2=CAGW hypothesis – based on models – has been repeatedly falsified.
    According to the scientific method, you need to start over. But alarmists have no use for the scientific method, since it falsifies their belief system and doesn’t give them the answers they want. So they ignore science and turn to politics.
    Pretty reprehensible, eh?

  136. Mods, thanks, y’all.
    No need to post this. Just wanted to say thanks for the assist in my post just above. Appreciate all you do, all of you! — Roger
    [You’re welcome. ~dbs]

  137. M.A.DeLuca II says:
    November 3, 2010 at 1:26 am
    “….. Now they get to prove to themselves and the world just how bad their plans really are. Unfortunately, California’s economy is a sizable fraction of North America’s, but at least some of the lost productivity will shift to other states. Then, after everything in California crashes and burns under the regulatory weight, the Greens will have been discredited and the western world will be able to get back to being productive again.
    I’m such an idealist.”
    ===========================================================
    No M.A….. You’re a realist. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head….

  138. The sad part of all of this is that the other side kept promising that AB32 would generate all sorts of “Green Jobs”; however this is based on a study that makes a number of assumptions. What if the assumptions are wrong? Well, California is screwed.
    California voters need to look at the cold hard facts: “State Unemployment Rate Stagnates At 12.4%”, Daily Breeze 10/23/2010. The other border states are far better off; Arizona is 10%, New Mexico is 8.4%, and Texas is only 8.4%. Our high unemployment rate can’t be blamed on illegals from Mexico.
    http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=usunemployment&met=unemployment_rate&idim=state:ST480000&dl=en&hl=en&q=unemployment+in+texas#met=unemployment_rate&idim=state:ST480000

  139. It might be poetic justice if this turns out to be one of those unusual winters when it snows in San Francisco…. Of course that usually coincides with a strong, brrr, arctic outbreak over Washington and Oregon.

  140. OK, so the responses to my comments are:
    – go find the reports/data that support arguments against the AB 32 scoping plan yourself
    – AB 32 doesn’t reduce particulate emissions
    and my favorite
    – CO2 doesn’t cause global warming
    Regarding the first… weak. And this come from someone accusing me of “blindly” believing in the AB 32 scope report. I did Google for alternative views, and using the same Google search I found detailed data/reports refuting every single one. If you have the balls to quote any of the reports you believe in, we could discuss. But as to essentially calling me a gullible idiot for taking someones word on the science, and then giving me nothing but words to back up your claims… hypocrite.
    Regarding the 2nd, the commenters should read my comments and go to the report that clarifies AB 32 will reduce both GHG emissions AND particulate emissions. The report even details the assumptions regarding reductions in asthma.
    As to the last… well that just makes me seriously question the reading comprehension of all of the commenters. How would you interpret my previous statement,”It is rhetoric, and without some hard backup it isn’t compelling enough for me to admit that it’s true. Kinda like global warming.”? And,”So they used BS science to support taxes/fees on certain types of businesses – such is politics.” I do not believe in AGW. Arguing against AGW is neither an argument against me nor an argument for AB 32 causing a reduction in California GDP.

  141. Steve,
    I don’t recall anyone saying that CO2 doesn’t cause any warming. But the effect is so minuscule that it cannot be measured. If it could be quantified and reliably measured, there would be no debate about the sensitivity number.
    You say there are three responses to your comments. There are actually more than that, because you never answered my own comment:
    “The onus is not on scientific skeptics to prove anything; the onus is on alarmists, who believe that the climate is outside its past parameters due to added CO2. It is not, as anyone can see.”
    There is no observed difference between an atmosphere with .00028 CO2, and one with .00039. Therefore, any minor effect from CO2 can be disregarded for all practical purposes, and we should stop wasting money on endless “studies” of this non-problem. AB32 is hugely more problematic than the rise in a very small, harmless and beneficial trace gas.

  142. “California Crushes Proposition 23: What It Means for America… and Investors”
    “the solution to our energy will come from the ground up, rather than the top down… And Tuesday’s elections provided a great example of that, as voters in California emphatically crushed Proposition 23, sending a clear message in support of green energy.”
    http://seekingalpha.com/article/235102-california-crushes-proposition-23-what-it-means-for-america-and-investors#comment_update_link

    I’ve left three negative comments there.

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