Foreword: The focus of this essay is strictly altitude placement/change of GHCN stations. While challenge and debate of the topic is encouraged, please don’t let the discussion drift into other side issues. As noted in the conclusion, there remain two significant issues that have not been fully addressed in GHCN. I believe a focus on those issues (particularly UHI) will best serve to advance the science and understanding of what GHCN in its current form is measuring and presenting, post processing. – Anthony

By Steven Mosher, Zeke Hausfather, and Nick Stokes
Recently on WUWT Dr. McKitrick raised several issues with regard to the quality of the GHCN temperature database. However, McKitrick does note that the methods of computing a global anomaly average are sound. That is essentially what Zeke Hausfather and I showed in our last WUWT post. Several independent researchers are able to calculate the Global Anomaly Average with very little differences between them.
GISS, NCDC, CRU, JeffId/RomanM, Tamino, ClearClimateCode, Zeke Hausfather, Chad Herman, Ron Broberg, Residual Analysis, and MoshTemp all generally agree. Given the GHCN data, the answer one gets about the pace of global warming is not in serious dispute. Whether one extrapolates as GISS does or not, whether one uses a least squares approach or a spatial averaging approach, whether one selects a 2 degree bin or a 5 degree bin, whether one uses an anomaly period of 1961-90 or 1953-1982, the answer is the same for virtually all practical purposes. Debates about methodology are either a distraction from the global warming issues at hand or they are specialist questions that entertain a few of us. Those specialist discussions may refine the answer or express our confidence in the result more explicitly, but the methods all work and agree to a high degree.
As we noted before, the discussion should therefore turn and remain focused on the data issues. How good is GHCN as a database and how serious are its shortcomings? As with any dataset, those of us who analyze data for a living look for several things. We look for errors, we look for bias, we look at the sampling characteristics, and we look at adjustments. Dr. McKitrick’s recent paper covers several topics relative to the make up and changes in GHCN temperature data. In particular he covers changes over time in the sampling of GHCN stations. He repeats a familiar note: over time the stations representing the temperature data set have changed. There is, as most people know, a fall off in stations reporting shortly after 1990 and then again in 2005. To be sure there are other issues that he raises as well. Those issues, such as UHI, will not be addressed here. Instead, the focus will be on one particular issue: altitude. We confine our discussion to that narrow point in order to remove misunderstandings and refocus the issue where it rightly belongs.
McKitrick writes:
Figure 1-8 shows the mean altitude above sea level in the GHCN record. The steady increase is consistent with a move inland of the network coverage, and also increased sampling in mountainous locations. The sample collapse in 1990 is clearly visible as a drop not only in numbers but also in altitude, implying the remote high-altitude sites tended to be lost in favour of sites in valley and coastal locations. This happened a second time in 2005. Since low-altitude sites tend to be more influenced by agriculture, urbanization and other land surface modification, the failure to maintain consistent altitude of the sample detracts from its statistical continuity.
There are several claims here.
- The increase in altitude is consistent with a move inland and out of valleys
- The increase in altitude is consistent with more sampling in mountainous locations.
- Low level sites tend to be influenced by agriculture, urbanization and other land use modifications
A simple study of the metadata available in the GHCN database shows that the stations that were dropped do not have the characteristics that McKitrick supposes. As Nick Stokes documents, the process of dropping stations is more related to dropping coverage in certain countries rather than a direct effort to drop high altitude stations . McKitrick also get the topography specifics wrong. He supposes that the drop in thermometers shifts the data out of mountainous inland areas into the valleys and low level coastal areas, areas dominated by urbanization and land use changes. That supposition is not entirely accurate as a cursory look at the metadata shows.
There are two significant periods when stations are dropped; Post 1990 and again in 2005. As Stokes show below.
FIGURE 1: Station drop and average altitude of stations.
The decrease in altitude is not caused by a move into valleys, lowland and coastal areas. As the following figures show, the percentage of coastal stations is stable, mountainous stations are still represented and the altitude loss more likely comes from the move out of mountainous valleys .
A simple summary of the total inventory shows this
| ALL STATIONS | Count | Total | Percent |
| Coastal | 2180 | 7280 | 29.95 |
| Lake | 443 | 7280 | 6.09 |
| Inland | 4657 | 7280 | 63.97 |
TABLE 1: Count of Coastal Stations
The greatest drop in stations occurs in the 1990-1995 period and the 2005 period, as shown above McKitrick supposes that the drop in altitude means a heavier weighting for coastal stations. The data do not support this
| Dropped Stations 90-95 | Count | Total | Percent |
| Coastal | 487 | 1609 | 30.27 |
| Lake | 86 | 1609 | 5.34 |
| Inland | 1036 | 1609 | 64.39 |
| Dropped in 2005-06 | |||
| Coastal | 104 | 1109 | 9.38 |
| Lake | 77 | 1109 | 6.94 |
| Inland | 928 | 1109 | 83.68 |
TABLE 2: Count of Coastal Stations dropped
The great march of the thermometers was not a trip to the beach. Neither was the drop in altitude the result of losing a higher percentage of “mountainous” stations.
FIGURE 2: Distribution of Altitude for the entire GHCN Inventory
| Minimum | 1st Qu | Median | Mean | 3rd Qu | Max | NA |
| -224.0 | 38.0 | 192.0 | 419.9 | 533.0 | 4670 | 142 |
TABLE 3: descriptive statistics for Altitude of the entire dataset
We can assess the claim about the march of thermometers down the mountains in two ways. First, by looking at the actual distribution of dropped stations.
FIGURE 3 Distribution of altitude for stations dropped in 1990-95
| Minimum | 1st Qu | Median | Mean | 3rd Qu | Max | NA |
| -21.0 | 40.0 | 183.0 | 441 | 589.2 | 4613.0 | 29 |
TABLE 4: Descriptive statistics for the Altitude of dropped stations
The character of stations dropped in the 2005 time frame are slightly different. That distribution is depicted below
FIGURE 4 Distribution of altitude for stations dropped in 2005-06
| Minimum | 1st Qu | Median | Mean | 3rd Qu | Max | NA |
| –59 | 143.0 | 291.0 | 509.7 | 681.0 | 2763.0 | 0 |
TABLE 5: Descriptive statistics for the Altitude of dropped stations 2005-06
The mean of those dropped is slightly higher than the average station. That hardly supports the contention of thermometers marching out of the mountains. We can put this issue to rest with the following observation from the metadata. GHCN metadata captures the topography surrounding the stations. There are four classifications FL, HI, MT and MV: flat, hilly, mountain and mountain valley. The table below hints at what was unique about the dropout.
| Type | Entire Dataset | Dropped after90-95 | Dropped 2005-06 | Total of two major movements |
| Flat | 2779 | 455 (16%) | 504 (23%) | 959 (43%) |
| Hilly | 3006 | 688 (23%) | 447 (15%) | 1135 (38%) |
| Mountain | 61 | 15 (25%) | 3 (5%) | 18 (30%) |
| Mountain Valley | 1434 | 451(31%) | 155 (11%) | 606 (42%) |
TABLE 6 Station drop out by topography type
There wasn’t shift into valleys as McKitrick supposes, but rather mountain valley sites were dropped. Thermometers left the flatlands and the mountainous valleys. That resulted in a slight decrease in the overall altitude.
That brings us to McKitrick’s third critical claim. McKitrick claims that the dropping of thermometers over weights places more likely to suffer from urbanization and differential land use. “Low level sites tend to be influenced by agriculture, urbanization and other land use modifications.” The primary concern that Dr. McKitrick voices is that the statistical integrity of the data may have been compromised. That claim needs to be turned into a testable hypothesis. What exactly has been compromised? We can think of two possible concerns. The first concern is that by dropping higher altitude mountain valley stations one is dropping stations that are colder. Since temperature decreases with altitude this would seem to be a reasonable concern. However, it is not. Some people make this claim, but McKitrick does not. He doesn’t because he is aware that the anomaly method prevents this kind of bias. When we create a global anomaly we prevent this kind of bias from entering the calculation by scaling the measurements of station by the mean of that station. Thus, a station located at 4000m may be at -5C, but if that station is always at -5C its anomaly will be zero. Likewise, a station at sea level in Death Valley that is constantly 110F will also have an anomaly of zero. Anomaly captures the departure from the mean of that station.
What this means is that as long as high altitude stations warm or cool at the same rate as low altitude stations, removing them or adding them will not bias the result.
To answer the question of whether dropping or adding higher altitude stations impacts the trend we have several analytical approaches. First, we could add back in stations. But we can’t add back in GHCN stations that were discontinued. The alternative is to add stations from other databases. Those studies indicate that adding addition stations does not change the trends:
http://moyhu.blogspot.com/2010/07/using-templs-on-alternative-land.html
http://moyhu.blogspot.com/2010/07/arctic-trends-using-gsod-temperature.html
http://moyhu.blogspot.com/2010/07/revisiting-bolivia.html
http://moyhu.blogspot.com/2010/07/global-landocean-gsod-and-ghcn-data.html
The other approach is to randomly remove more stations from GHCN and measure the effect. If we fear that GHCN has biased the sample by dropping higher altitude stations, we can drop more stations and measure the effect. There are two ways to do this. A Monte Carlo approach and an approach that divides the existing data into subsets:
Nick Stokes has conducted the Monte Carlo experiments. In his approach stations are randomly removed and global averages are recomputed. Stations were removed based on a randomization approach that preferentially removed high altitude stations. This test gives us an estimate of the Standard Error as well.
| Period | Trend of All | Re-Sampled | s.d |
| 1900-2009 | 0.0731 | 0.0723 | 0.00179 |
| 1979-2009 | 0.2512 | 0.2462 | 0.00324 |
| Mean Altitude | 392m | 331m |
Table 7 Monte Carlo test of altitude sensitivity
This particular test consists of selecting all the stations whose series end after 1990. There are 4814 such stations. The sensitivity to altitude reduction was performed by randomly removing higher altitude stations. The results indicate little to no interaction between altitude and temperature trend in the very stations end after the 1990 period.
The other approach, dividing the sample, was approached in two different ways by Zeke Hausfather and Steven Mosher. Hausfather, approached the problem using a paired approach. Grid cells are selected for processing if the have stations both above and below 300m. This eliminates cells that are represented by a single station. Series are then constructed for the stations that lie above 300m and below 300m.
| Period | Elevation > 300m | Elevation <300m |
| 1900-2009 | .04 | .05 |
| 1960-2009 | .23 | .19 |
| 1978-2009 | .34 | .28 |
Table 8. Comparison of trend versus altitude for paired station testing
FIGURE 5: Comparison of temperature Anomaly for above mean and below mean stations
This test indicates that higher elevation stations tend to see higher rates of warming rather than lower rates of warming. Thus, dropping them, does not bias the temperature record upward. The concern lies in the other direction. If anything the evidence points to this: dropping higher altitude stations post 1990 has lead to a small underestimation of the warming trend.
Finally, Mosher, extending the work of Broberg tested the sensitivity of altitude by dividing the existing sample in the following way, by raw altitude and by topography.
- A series containing all stations.
- A series of lower altitude stations Altitude < 200m
- A series of higher altitude stations Altitude >300m
- All Stations in Mountain Valleys
- A series of stations at very high altitude. Altitude >400m
The results of that test are shown below
FIGURE 6 Global anomaly. Smoothing performed for display purpose only with a 21 point binomial filter
The purple series is the highest altitude stations. The red series lower elevation series. Green is the mountain valley stations. A cursory look at the “trend” indicates that the higher elevation stations warm slightly faster than the lower elevation, confirming Hausfather. Dropping higher elevation stations, if it has any effect whatsoever works to lower the average. Stations at lower altitudes tend to warm less rapidly than stations at higher elevations. So quite the opposite of what people assume, the dropping of higher altitude stations is more likely to underestimate the warming rather than over estimate the warming.
Conclusion:
The distribution of altitude does change with time in GHCN v2.mean data. That change does not signal a march of thermometers to places with higher rates of warming. The decrease in altitude is not associated with a move toward or away from coasts. The decrease is not clearly associated with a move away mountainous regions and into valleys, but rather a movement out of mountain valley and flatland regions. Yet, mountain valleys do not warm or cool in any differential manner. Changing altitude does not bias the final trends in any appreciable way.
Regardless of the differential characteristics associated with higher elevation, changes in temperature trends is not clearly or demonstrably one of them. For now, we have no evidence whatsoever that marching thermometers up and down hills makes any contribution to a overestimation of the warming trend.
Dr. McKitrick presented a series of concerns with GHCN. We have eliminated the concern over changes in the distribution of altitude. That merits a correction to his paper. The concerns he raised about latitude, and airports and UHI will be addressed in forthcoming pieces. Given the preliminary work done on airports. (and here) and latitude to date, we can confidently say that the entire debate will come down to two basic issues: UHI and adjustments, the issues over latitude changes and sampling at airports will fold into those discussions. So, here is where the debate stands. The concerns that people have had about methodology have been addressed. As McKitrick notes, the various independent methods get the same answers. The concern about altitude bias has been addressed. As we’ve argued before, the real issue with temperature series is the metadata, its related microsite and UHI issues and adjustments made prior to entry in the GHCN database.
Special thanks to Ron Broberg for editorial support.
References:
A Critical Review of Global Surface Temperature Data Products. Ross McKitrick, Ph.D. July 26, 2010





” Paul says: August 19, 2010 at 7:59 pm
Unfortunately, this essay fails to demonstrate a lack of bias due to altitude changes. “
Paul, you say that the analysis doesn’t discriminate between Land Use changes and GHG changes. That’s true – we only used the measured temperatures, which don’t show that distinction. All this kind of analysis can show is whether selecting low altitude stations biases trends as observed.
Steven Mosher [August 19, 2010 at 5:09 pm] says:
I would not that on many occassion I get people arguing 2 things:
1. We cant say that its warmer today.
and later they say things like..
2. “Well we are coming out of a LIA.” a period for which there is very little measurement, Yet, Yet, no skeptic questions it. I find that ironic.
Uggh! Sounds like you are calling ‘skeptics’ hypocrites. That quoted dialog looks exactly like something Joe Romm or Grant Foster would write.
The kindest way for a ‘skeptic’ to interpret this would be as clumsy strawman argument with your anecdotes 1) and 2), points which are not even mutually exclusive, a requirement for hypocracy (or irony 🙂
So, to be kind I ask you to stand at 5th and 33rd in NYC and look up a quarter mile to the top of a famous building. Now roll the clock back 20,000 years and see the glacier that is twice (or possibly 4) times as tall. Roll the clock back further to 4 million and 65 MYA and you’ll notice something quite different.
Now Steve, I can and will state with a probability of one that the climate is warmer today than 20 KYA in that location without possessing a single measurement. Am I still a hypocrite (or ironic)? So unless you are now with those trying to disappear the recent LIA (at least there are a few measurements) I would re-think this one.
A less kind way for a ‘skeptic’ to interpret the above quote would result in gifting you a psychoanalysis book, with the chapter on Stockholm Syndrome tabbed and highlighted 😉
tonyb says:
August 20, 2010 at 1:52 am
“Chiefios’ wonderful ‘March of the thermometers- which has been referenced in this thread several times.
In a fine example of Anglo American cooperation Verity Jones and Lucy Skywalker kindly put the information into an excellent graphical form…”
Tony, the ‘correct version’ is here. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vYBt7hixAMU/SzpY-r3HTbI/AAAAAAAAALI/bIMyN3qFjGE/s640/March+of+the+Thermometers.bmp
IIRC correctly E.M.Smith chose 50 Deg as one of his latitude cut off points, and both my and Lucy’s previous versions connected to the wrong latitude lines. Anyway we have sonce realised that the GISS lattitude bins e.g. 64N-90N give equal areas.
Steven Mosher says:
August 19, 2010 at 6:41 pm
bottomline:
LOW altitude stations WARM AT THE SAME RATE as HIGH altitude. its simple physics. Think about it. If the worls warms 10c over time, do you think that WARMING can be confined? the warm low sites get warmer and the high cool sites get warmer. and they warm at the SAME RATE over TIME.
You might be right if we forget about natural influences like Ocean Currents, Jet Streams, Weather Systems, Continental Effects, Inversion Layers, Diurnal Ranges, Sea Breezes, Prevailing Winds, Climate Cycles etc etc etc…. You might be right if you forget about human influences like UHI, Jet Engines, Land Use, Population Growth, Economic Cycles, Depopulation etc etc etc
Unfortunately, real world temperature measurements are impacted by such things… so your bottomline is really scrapping the bottom of the barrel.
If we could just use the Lapse Rate then we could start reducing the number of stations to, say, one per degree of Latitude…
OH! I see they have started doing that already! I wonder why!
Steven Mosher says:
August 19, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Wow. The temperature is FLAT. that is one of the points of doing an anomaly.
And the other reasons for doing an anomaly are Obscuration, Manipulation, Misdirection, Disinformation, Deflection etc etc etc.
They are pre-baking the Station data so they can produce a fully baked grid of extrapolated data that drives a meaningless Global Average. Get Real!
Nick Stokes says:
August 20, 2010 at 3:05 am
We do have over thirty GSOD stations reporting in Bolivia during this period. The story they tell is not substantially different to the GHCN account
Graphical evidence? What does ‘not substantially different’ mean in this case Nick?
deduced from neighboring stations.
Neighbouring as in “in another country”?
I am in agreement that knowing the quality of the data at its source is of paramount importance. It is the foundation of the pyramid and therefore very important.
I take exception to the first paragraph of this post:
Several independent researchers are able to calculate the Global Anomaly Average with very little differences between them.
So?
The crucial question is : does the Global Anomaly Average have a meaning as far as energies impacting on the whole globe and therefore local temperatures?
I am sure that several independent researchers would calculate the same average phone number for the phone book of New York. Does the output have a meaning?
I have said several times that anomalies are third level convolutions and have a distorted connection with the primary objective, energy received and radiated.
The first level of convolution is from energy to local temperature, the second level is from local temperature to local anomaly, the third level is from local anomaly to global anomaly.
There is absolutely no way one can deconvolve from a global anomaly to a local energy, and hence to a global energy budget.
Local anomalies at a more esoteric level also include various mechanisms of heat transport that have tenuous ( again through convolutions) connection with radiative energy. Example : there are at times in the winter 15C and more anomalies in the arctic. These are the result of air currents and not radiation. Nevertheless they are happily averaged in the global anomaly. The recent heat in Russia, is due to stalled air, and should be demonstrating how important the air transport mechanisms are on the temperatures displayed.
The whole global average business needs a rethink from the foundation, in my opinion. Of course if even the data are not to be relied upon, one should just give up.
Steven Mosher says:
August 19, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Latitude. Over short periods of time higher latitude warm MORE. physics also.
Higher latitude are cool. but cool is not the question RATE OF WARMING. that is the Q.
=======================================================
Steve, I would like to see all of the stations that were dropped (high, low, medium, valley, under water) analyzed. It’s too much of a coincidence that many stations were dropped and there’s an immediate 1/2 degree jump in temps.
Those stations had something in common. The only way to figure that out, is to take apart each one and figure it out.
And over short periods of time, higher stations cool more. If they are taking two readings a day, the lower night temps is where they lost that 1/2 degree.
High, low, medium, doesn’t matter. I would like to see every dropped station analyzed.
A STORY OF OUR TIME
Some poor guy has a very serious road accident… the ambulance arrives and carts him off to a good teaching hospital… where he dies.
This guy’s wife is obviously very upset and asks the hospital “What Happened?”.
The hospital replied:
We’re sorry. Our top specialists did everything they could do.
Our top Dietician said he was not overweight – especially as he had lost a lot of blood.
Our top Psychiatrist said your husband was not mad… just angry and in pain.
Our top Nail Technician said your husband’s remaining hand got a lovely manicure.
Our top Chiropodist said your husband didn’t have any ingrown toenails.
Our top Dentist said your husband did not need any fillings in his few remaining teeth.
Out top Cleaner said your husband was a model patient and never left his bed.
Out top Priest gave your husband the last rights although he was not a Catholic.
Our top Lecturer said he demonstrated typical accident injuries to her students.
Our top Administrator said these specialists worked to the highest possible standards.
==============================
This is the sense of unreality I get when I read postings validating AGW data.
PS
Our top Speech Therapist stated that your husband could articulate “I need a doctor now!” very clearly and spoke with a lot of expression. However, our top Speech Therapist was worried about your husbands very limited vocabulary because that is all he ever said.
Nice effort. UHI and ‘adjustments’ have always been the difficult issue.
Unfortunately, I do not think those issues will be so easily addressed as the altitude effects of dropped stations. Comparison of satellite lower troposphere temperature trends for low population, high population and ocean areas may help with the UHI question, or at least better define the possible size of the UHI effects.
However, I fear the issue of adjustments could be endlessly contentious, especially since at least some individual stations can be identified where known adjustments seem difficult to justify. If some reasonable upper bound for the combined effects of station adjustments and UHI can be defined, then that would make a great contribution to the debate, since such an upper bound would automatically set a reasonable lower bound for overall warming. It would be constructive if most everyone could agree the instrument record shows a warming between a lower limit of ‘A’ and an upper limit of ‘B’ degrees.
Addendum to my
anna v says:
August 20, 2010 at 5:30 am
Somehow, in this game called AGW morphed to Climate Change the ball of the very basics has been lost.
1) The black/gray body radiation is used for balancing energies to tell us whether we are warming or cooling, BUT, the temperatures used are average temperatures at 2m in the atmosphere. Most of the time, that temperature has a tenuous connection with the skin surface temperature that is the one that is radiating the heat away. The atmosphere has very little heat capacity to be really representative.
2) Have a look at http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NasaNews/ReleaseImages/20040421/01_lstday_modism.jpg
to see real temperatures, the ones that should go into the T^4 calculations an ponder the logic of averaging day/night etc
Look at the scale of the first image, the globe goes from -25C to 45, and again, think T^4.
The whole anomaly chase in the context of real energies in a real world reminds me of the ancient greek word Omphaloscopy,
i.e. navel gazing.
.e
You know what would be cool?
A map of the anomaly difference between adjusted and raw by .5DEG grid cell. For each year since 1930.
Where do the anomalies come from? And when.
That kind of anomaly would be useful.
Nice work in the post, and also heartening to see Dr. McKitrick weighing in. Everyone won’t agree (duh), but the issues get a full and fair airing.
Minor point: the introductory text reads
I am almost certain that “degrees” in that sentence refers to degrees of latitude and longitude, rather than to degrees of temperature. It is a reference to the size of the bins (squares of 2 or 5 deg longitude x 2 or 5 deg latitude) as used in geographical gridding procedures.
Terrific thread, from which I’ve learnt a lot. Thanks especially to E.M Smith.
Nick:
Glad to see we’ve establish a baseline about what the essay says.
Some editing of the essay is in order. The essays leaves the reader with the impression of having vitiated McKitrick’s claims, whereas the actual claims made are finely worded and specific in a way that the essay ignores.
Indeed, your essay supports the original claim that we should care about the impact of altitude changes because of a disparate impact of land use changes. That’s not a different issue. That is the issue that was raised.
tonyb says: August 20, 2010 at 1:52 am
Tony, there certainly are long term records. GHCN, IIRC, has records (Berlin) going back to 1701. But GISS is in the business of compiling hemisphere and global averages, and you can’t do that with such sparse coverage. CRU goes back to 1850, but is often criticised about the sparsity of the early data. Even GISS’ 1880 start is sometimes criticised for the sparse coverage at that time.
Paul says: August 20, 2010 at 8:42 am
“Indeed, your essay supports the original claim that we should care about the impact of altitude changes because of a disparate impact of land use changes. That’s not a different issue. That is the issue that was raised.”
Yes, Ross did talk about land use changes etc. But the evidence available, that he discussed, is the GHCN land temperature record, and that does not discriminate attribution. In his summary, he said:
“The collapse in sample size has not been spatially uniform. It has increased the relative fraction of data coming from airports to about 50 percent (up from about 30 percent in the 1970s). It has also reduced the average latitude of source data and removed relatively more high-altitude monitoring sites. GHCN applies adjustments to try and correct for sampling discontinuities. These have tended to increase the warming trend over the 20th century.”
A few things to try to clarify there:
1. An adjusted temperature file is offerred as part of the GHCN data, but the major indices (GISS and CRU) don’t use it. They use the raw data file.
2. I don’t think the adjustments are trying to correct in any way for the change in numbers of stations in the record. They try to correct for changes within each station’s record. In fact, they make no adjustment to a station without a period of data before and after, which means they can’t adjust for the “dropping” of a station.
3. It’s true that Ross attributes the increase in warming trend in that para to the adjustments, rather than an effect on the raw data. But in th epaper he goes on to talk about the effect on GISS and CRU, which use as input not the adjustments, but only the raw data. And the only way they could be affected is if the selection effects that he describes did show up in the raw trends. We are trying to show that they don’t.
Nick at 10.03
Fortunately we have literally hundreds of thousands of highly reliable records that back up the instruments and tell us what was happening. Far from being anecdotal they are much more credible than lumps of old wood.
As regards to ‘sparse’ data, thats why I had earlier referred to Giss’s arbritary start date of 1880. A more logical time would have been 1910-1920 when there was better coverage in both hemispheres and the Stephenson screen had been universally adopted.
Dr Hansen measured from a dip in temperatures in 1880 which accentuated the subsequnt upswing. Have you any thoughts why such a rational person would have chosen such an irrational start date?
tonyb
Nick Stokes: “But GISS is in the business of compiling hemisphere and global averages, and you can’t do that with such sparse coverage.”
Maybe GISS should stop measuring temperatures in the USA (and elswhere) at JUST a handful of UHI contaminated airports.
tallbloke says: August 20, 2010 at 4:59 am
“Graphical evidence? What does ‘not substantially different’ mean in this case Nick?”
The graph shows it best. But the trends are similar. 0.0373 ± 0.0982 C/Dec for the GHCN estimate based on stations over the border. 0.0559 ±0.118 C/Dec for GSOD for the same region, including 30+ stations within Bolivia. And 0.0703 ±0.116 C/Dec for GSOD data, Bolivia alone. Small trends, differing far less than standard error.
Paul
“Indeed, your essay supports the original claim that we should care about the impact of altitude changes because of a disparate impact of land use changes. That’s not a different issue. That is the issue that was raised.”
If the Issue is land use changes, then the focus should be land use changes.
Altitude changes have not been shown to be associated universally with land use changes. If the concern is land use changes, then that can be assess directly without reference to altitude changes.
change in altitude per se is not a problem. We know physically why it should not be a problem. We showed that it is not a problem. Altitude changes may be associated with land use changes, but that has not been established. The claim was that there was a move out of mountains into valleys and low lying areas. Well, there wasnt.
Further, if altitude were a perfect proxy for land use changes, then we just proved that land use changes dont matter!
My preference is to focus on the thing that matters. Land use changes. Not a proxy for it, the thing itself.
Latitude:
latitude says:
August 20, 2010 at 5:30 am (Edit)
Steven Mosher says:
August 19, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Latitude. Over short periods of time higher latitude warm MORE. physics also.
Higher latitude are cool. but cool is not the question RATE OF WARMING. that is the Q.
=======================================================
Steve, I would like to see all of the stations that were dropped (high, low, medium, valley, under water) analyzed. It’s too much of a coincidence that many stations were dropped and there’s an immediate 1/2 degree jump in temps.
Those stations had something in common. The only way to figure that out, is to take apart each one and figure it out.
###############################
STATIONS WERE NOT DROPPED. in the early 1990 there was a COMPILATION of the EXISTING DATA. those stations that were available were compiled. That is why you get the big number. THEN they decided that going forward they would collect data via CLIMAT reports. hence fewer stations. Dont worry, there will be another compilation in 2011. WRT to looking at all the dropped stations. DID THAT. that’s what a study of RETAINED stations does. no difference.
“And over short periods of time, higher stations cool more. If they are taking two readings a day, the lower night temps is where they lost that 1/2 degree.”
you still dont get it.
High, low, medium, doesn’t matter. I would like to see every dropped station analyzed.
Been there done that. you are welcomed to the data. The simple fact is this. Drop every dropped station. Drop the WHOLE THING. Take only the stations that start in 1900 and end in 2010. dont add a thing. no “adding” of high altitude stations in the 50-90 period. Same answer. The drop doesnt matter.
Tony rogers.
None of us use Hansens method. Not zeke, not me, not nick.
Nick doesnt even use an anomaly. That is WHY we argued in our previous paper that all these methods give substantially the same answer
Ross:
“Going on to Table 6, the 4-way division of landforms is intrinsically less interesting because it does not directly map onto altitude. Why look at these terms as indicators of altitude, when altitude itself is available? Presumably a “Mountain Valley” is itself a high elevation site, at least compared to a coastal valley. Likewise Flatland can be high-elevation flatland or low-elevation flatland. Your table is hard to read, again because it doesn’t have a date to define the sample with, it doesn’t show a before/after comparison, and the % calculations are not defined. Since columns don’t add to 100% we can eventually figure out what you’re doing, but it isn’t what you need to do to make your argument. You want to argue, presumably, that the different land forms each lost a similar percentage of their stations. But your numbers show that the losses were not similar across categories, they were Flat 34.5%, Hilly 37.8%, Mountain 29.5%, MV 42.2%”
Sorry, the much longer version of the paper covered this in detail>
Basically I’m looking at the prior distribution of stations before the drop
and the distribution after to see if the loss was uniform per category or not
or if there was a skew: in terms of distribution the fraction of flat goes up
moutain stays the same. Hilly stays the same. valley goes down. All very slight movements. Hope that explains the table. distribution of topography prior.
distribution after, roughly the same. Putting a fine point on it ( I like that) the move is out of MV into flatlands. The percent ( of the total) of MV goes down The percent of flat goes up. Hilly and Mountainous stays the same. Since mountainous valleys ( one could argue) are higher than flatlands you see a small change in altitude overall. But altitude, per se, doesnt matter. If its land use change we are after we should look directly at that. Which you did. Unforntuanely, people might be left with a perception that ALTITUDE in an of itself matters. It doesnt. I find it hard to make people follow the argument about land use, when issues get conflated. That is why I keep harping on the same point: the problem isnt altitude, per se, its not latitude, is not the dropping of stations. Its the land use. its UHI. the other points are confusing what should be a clear explication of the problem
So more clearly here
Flat: 2779 38%
Hilly 3006 41%
Mountain 61 1%
Mountain Valley 1434 20%
After the drop of 1
1820 40%
1871 41%
43 1%
828 18%
Note that about 14 percent of the stations are above 1,000 meters. Approximately 25 percent of the Earth’s land surface is above 1,000 meters. The Highland climate could be described as “terra incognita”. Indeed it’s a big “H” in the classification system, which is so often ignored.