
Guest post by Steven Mosher
In Climategate: The Crutape letters we tried to avoid accusing Professor Jones of CRU and UEA of outright fraud. Instead, based on the record found in the emails, we argued a case of noble cause corruption. I enlarged upon that charge at Pajama’s Media . Commenters took me to task for being too soft on Jones. Based on the extant text at that time I would still hold to my case. No skeptic could change my mind. But Phil Jones makes it hard to defend him anymore. On March 1st he testified before Parliament and there he argued that it was standard scientific practice to not share data. Those who still insist on being generous with him could, I suppose, argue that he has no recollection, but in my mind he is playing with the truth and knows he is playing with the truth.
In 2002 Steve McIntyre had no publications in climate science. He wrote to Jones requesting temperature data. The history of their exchange is detailed in this Climate Audit Post. Jones sent data to McIntyre along with the following mail:
Dear Steve,
Attached are the two similar files [normup6190, cruwld.dat] to those I sent before which should be for the 1994 version. This is still the current version until the paper appears for the new one. As before the stations with normal values do not get used.
I’ll bear your comments in mind when possibly releasing the station data for the new version (comments wrt annual temperatures as well as the monthly). One problem with this is then deciding how many months are needed to constitute an annual average. With monthly data I can use even one value for a station in a year (for the month concerned), but for annual data I would have to decide on something like 8-11 months being needed for an annual average. With fewer than 12 I then have to decide what to insert for missing data. Problem also applies to the grid box dataset but is slightly less of an issue. I say possibly releasing above, as I don’t want to run into the issues that GHCN have come across with some European countries objecting to data being freely available. I would like to see more countries make their data freely available (and although these monthly averages should be according to GCOS rules for GAA-operational Met. Service.
Cheers
Phil Jones
We should note these things: Jones sent data. That was his practice. Jones is aware of the problems in releasing this data. Jones believes that these monthly averages should be released according to GCOS [WMO resolution 40] rules. In 2002 his practice is to release data to a total unknown with no history of publication. And Jones releases the data to him knowing that there are issues around releasing that data.
In 2004 Warwick Hughes exchanges a series of mails with Jones. In 2000 Jones appears to have a cooperative relationship with Hughes. In 2004 the record shows the following
Dear Jean Palutikof, Dr P.D. Jones,
I was just reading your web page at; http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/info/warming/ and wish to access the station by station temperature data, updated through 2001 referred to on your CRU web page; http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/#datdow as
“Over land regions of the world over 3000 monthly station temperature time series are used.” Where can I download the latest station by station data which is a foundation of Dr Jones et al published papers ? Note, I am not asking about the CRU gridded data which I can see on your web site. Looking forward to your help,
Best wishes,
Warwick Hughes
Warwick,
The station data are not on the CRU web site. If you look at the GHCN page at NCDC, you’ll see they have stopped access and cited WMO Res. 40 for this. To my mind this resolution is supposed to make access free. However, it was hinted at to me a year or two ago that I should also not make the station data available.
The gridded data are there as you know.
I would suggest you take this up with WMO and/or GCOS. I have raised it several times with them and got nowhere.
Cheers
Phil
As Jones points out he believes that WMO Resolution 40 should make access free. Jones also says that he himself has taken up this issue with them. One can presume he took it up because he wanted to give access to data. Further, he knows that there may be agreements that preclude release of the data.
The start of 2005 is a critical point in the story line. Jones had cordial exchanges with Hughes in 2000. Jones shared data with McIntyre in 2002 and in 2004 Jones believed that the data should be shared. In 2005 he has been transformed. In January of 2005, McIntyre published a paper (MM05) critical of Mann. As luck would have it at this time former CRU employee Wigley sent an email to Jones about a flyer he has received that discusses FOIA. At this stage no FOIA have been sent to CRU. But Wigley and Jones are concerned about skeptics. What ever willingness Jones had to share data is gone. Again, Jones shows a clear understanding of the existence of agreements:
Data is covered by all the agreements we sign with people, so I will be hiding behind them. I’ll be passing any requests onto the person at UEA who has been given a post to deal with them.
At the start of Feb 2005, Jones’ attitude toward data sharing becomes clearer and also contradictory. Some people can get this data in violation of agreements, while others who ask for it using legal means will be thwarted.
Mike,
I presume congratulations are in order – so congrats etc !
Just sent loads of station data to Scott [Rutherford]. Make sure he documents everything better this time ! And don’t leave stuff lying around on ftp sites – you never know who is trawling them. The two MMs [McIntyre and McKittrick] have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I’ll delete the file rather than send
to anyone. Does your similar act in the US force you to respond to enquiries within 20 days? – our does ! The UK works on precedents, so the first request will test it. We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind. Tom Wigley has sent me a worried email when he heard about it – thought people could ask him for his model code. He has retired officially from UEA so he can hide behind that. IPR should be relevant here, but I can see me getting into an argument with someone at UEA who’ll say we must adhere to it !
Two weeks after the publication of MM05, prior to the issuance of any FOIA whatsoever, Jones contemplates destroying data rather than sharing it. But read closely. Jones sends this data to Scott Rutherford. So what’s the standard scientific practice? The data is covered by confidentiality agreements. Jones shared it with McIntyre in 2002, and now shares it with Rutherford in 2005. Jones knows it is covered by agreements and he’s questioned those agreements—except when he finds it convenient to hide behind those agreements. He violates them as he pleases. He shares data as he pleases. And if he is pushed to share it he contemplates destroying it.
On Feb 21, 2005 Keith Briffa sends Jones a mail with a list of editorials that are critical of Dr. Mann for not releasing data. Jones replies to Warwick Hughes’ request for data that same day:
Warwick,
Hans Teunisson will reply. He’ll tell you which other people should reply. Hans is “Hans Teunissen”
I should warn you that some data we have we are not supposed top pass on to others. We can pass on the gridded data – which we do. Even if WMO agrees, I will still not pass on the data. We have 25 or so years invested in the work. Why should I make the data available to you, when your aim is to try and find something wrong with it. There is IPR to consider.
You can get similar data from GHCN at NCDC. Australia isn’t restricted there.
Several European countries are. Basically because, for example, France doesn’t want the French picking up data on France from Asheville. Meteo France wants to supply data to the French on France. Same story in most of the others.
Cheers
Phil
Jones has changed his attitude about the WMO. Prior to the publication of MM05 Jones believed that the WMO guidelines would make the data available. Moreover he argued with WMO that it should be released. Now, Jones changes his tune. He argues that he will not release the data even if the WMO agrees. His concern? Hughes will find something wrong with it.
When it comes to deciding whether to share data or not, standards have nothing to do with the decisions Jones made and he knows that. He knows he shared confidential data with Rutherford while he denied it to McIntyre and Hughes. He knows he regarded the confidentiality of those agreements quixotically. Violating them or hiding behind them on a whim. This was scientific malpractice. Lying about that now is beyond excuse.
April 2005 comes and we turn to another request from McIntyre: There is a constant refrain amongst AGW defenders that people don’t need to share code and data. They argue that papers do a fine job of explaining the science: They argue that people should write their own code based on description in papers. Here is McIntyre’s request. Note that he has read the paper and tried to emulate the method:
Dear Phil,
In keeping with the spirit of your suggestions to look at some of the other multiproxy publications, I’ve been looking at Jones et al [1998]. The methodology here is obviously more straightforward than MBH98. However, while I have been able to substantially emulate your calculations, I have been unable to do so exactly. The differences are larger in the early periods. Since I have been unable to replicate the results exactly based on available materials, I would appreciate a copy of the actual data set used in Jones et al [1998] as well as the code used in these calculations.
There is an interesting article on replication by Anderson et al., some distinguished economists, here [1]http://research.stlouisfed.org/wp/2005/2005-014.pdf discussing the issue of replication in applied economics and referring favorably to our attempts in respect to MBH98.
Regards, Steve McIntyre
When you cannot replicate a paper based on a description of the data and a description of the method, standard practice is to request materials from the author. McIntyre does that. Jones’ “practice” is revealed in his mail to Mann:
From: Phil Jones <p.jones@xxxxxxxxx.xxx>
To: mann@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Fwd: CCNet: DEBUNKING THE “DANGEROUS CLIMATE CHANGE” SCARE
Date: Wed Apr 27 09:06:53 2005
Mike,
Presumably you’ve seen all this – the forwarded email from Tim. I got this email from McIntyre a few days ago. As far as I’m concerned he has the data sent ages ago. I’ll tell him this, but that’s all – no code. If I can find it, it is likely to be hundreds of lines of uncommented fortran ! I recall the program did a lot more that just average the series. I know why he can’t replicate the results early on – it is because there was a variance correction for fewer series.
See you in Bern.
Cheers
Phil
Jones does not argue that code should be withheld because of IPR[Intellectual Property Rights]. It’s withheld because he is not sure he can find it and he suspects that it is a mess. More importantly Jones says he knows why McIntyre cannot replicate the results. Jones does not argue “standard scientific practice” to withhold code; he withholds code because it’s either lost, or sloppy and because it will allow McIntyre to understand exactly how the calculations were done. This is malpractice. Today when questioned whether people could replicate his work from the papers he wrote Jones “forgot this mail” and said they could replicate his work. And we should note one last thing. Jones again acknowledges sending data to McIntyre. So, what exactly is Jones’ notion of standard practice? To share or not to share? What the record shows is that Jones shared data and didn’t share data, confidential or not, on a basis that cannot be described as scientific or standard. He did so selectively and prejudicially. Just as he refused data to Hughes to prevent his work being checked he refuses information that McIntyre needs to replicate his published results. At the same time he releases that data to others.
That’s not the end of the story as we all know. In 2007 the first two FOIA were issued to CRU for data. One request for a subset of the data was fulfilled after some delay. The larger request was denied. By 2009 it became clear to McIntyre that the CRU data had also been shared with Webster. When McIntyre requested the very same data that Webster got from Jones, CRU started again with a series of denials again citing confidentiality agreements, inventing the terms of those agreements ex nihilo. Webster could have the data. McIntyre could not.
What the record shows is that Jones had no standard scientific practice of sharing or not sharing data. He had no consistent practice of abiding by or violating confidentiality agreements. He had his chance to sit before Parliament and come clean about the record. He had an opportunity to explain exactly why he took these various contradictory actions over the course of years. Instead he played with the truth again. Enough.
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I can’t blame Phil for being nervous. He’s the poster boy for bad science, and the politicians in whose service he laboured are going to blame bad science for their failure to grasp worldwide power through carbon control. He’s just a sad little poor scientist who will end up the scapegoat, and the monsters who promoted this scare will skate.
Yep, I’d flutter my hands before my face, too.
==============
Steven Mosher
Thanks Steve, a very to the point post.
Every time I reflect and want to cut these guys some slack,
they say or do something that destroys that feeling in me.
Here is a link to an interview with Mann that has all but sealed
my opinion of the whole crowd. This is a long interview (40 min)
“Michael Mann – Unprecedented Attacks on Climate Research”
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/mp3_stream/myWimpy.html
steven,
You assert that Jones’ attitude changed with the publication of MM05, but you are forgetting one very important event from 2005: Congressman Barton’s fishing expedition into the lives of climate scientists, which was essentially an attack on scientists (remember that Barton wanted not just details on the science, but details about the personal lives of Mann and others.)
Whether McIntyre was working closely with Barton or not–he seemed to be. So why would scientists share data with someone perceived as being part of the witch hunt against them? Thus, Jones started treating McIntyre differently, and while he may not have been justified in his actions, they are certainly understandable given the circumstances.
Peter Heardon:
“If what people like Mr Mosher say is wrong it might cost the world billions because climate change science will have been right all along but we didn’t listen to it and sort the problems when we could because we listened to the Mr Moshers of this world. So, therefore, he should be open to the same scrutiny as everyone else in this business – views like his might cost the world BILLIONS. What kind of an excuse for not scrutinising views that might cost us billions is it that Mr Mosher isn’t a public employee? It’s a nonsensical excuse.
”
If only someone of the hundreds of governmentally-paid for research studies had a conflicting view to “mainstream” climate science, so that you could issue FOI requests to them…
And that’d be GRAND, because it would mean that the money was going toward fully understanding the issues from all angles. Perhaps some enterprising young scientist can get funding to do just that, now that the orthodoxy is broken.
And Dr. Jones is fully capable of asking Mr. Mosher for information, and trying to discredit his work. I seriously doubt that Mr. Mosher would be anything but forthcoming. FOI requests wouldn’t be neccessary, unlike the crew with something to hide.
“He does not look like Mann, who can lie to himself and others for all eternity without missing a step”
The key to really getting away with a lie is somehow to convince yourself it’s true. Jones evidently doesn’t. Look at how ill he is looking with the realisation of what he’s been up to the last few decades.
Peter Hearnden (02:04:34) :
He’s got to be trying out stuff for some sort of comedy review doesn’t he?…
Oh… I see from the followups that he is serious.
Well, a particular biblical quote (perhaps paraphrase) seems relevant
There are none so blind as those that refuse to see.
(and mate, at this point you must be really really trying hard not to see)
Re the so called “science” and the so called “research”.
another old saying comes to mind.
“I may be cabbage looking, but I am not green”
cheerio
Jim
Peter:
“If sceptics are wrong but we mistakenly listen to you, you will have cost the world BILLIONS! Thus scepticism needs to be scrutinised as much as science.”
Hi Peter. Whether you like it or not, or think it’s a good idea or not- rigorous and normal scientific scepticism as applied to climate science actually helps scientific understanding of climate. I’ve seen enough sceptical scientists here admit their mistakes- I’ve never seen a pro AGW scientist admit their mistakes…
This quote best sums it up I think-
“What gets us into trouble is not what we don’t know.
It’s what we know for sure that just ain’t so.”
” Veronica (03:29:41) :
Peter Hearnden
You are vicious. ”
No I’m not (and this is not about me or my character) but I suspect nothing will convince you otherwise?
R.S.Brown (03:29:11) :
No, I’m not trolling, I’m asking question that I think need answers. Again, I suspect nothing will convince you otherwise either but it happens to be the truth.
Boris 4:25:50
The Barton Committee came about because the Piltdown Mann’s Hockey Stick was crook’d, not because of any sort of ‘attack on science’ as envisioned in Deep Climate’s deeply paranoid head.
===================
The main point Mr Mosher makes is very important to push out there right now.
Much press gives it that Jones consistently refused requests for his data.
Such a claim can be defended by policy, rules, protocol and even by the lesser crime of not wanting others to take a royal road to publication by lifting all CRUs hard work.
Mosher’s point is that Jones inconsistently refused requests for his data.
This is a lot harder to defend especially when clear patterns start to emerge in the inconsistency.
There is an irony here which is delightfully delicious for me. For years the alarmists castigated skeptics by accusing them of believing in a worldwide conspiracy of scientists. Now that that conspiracy is revealed for the world to see, the response of the alarmists is to accuse the skeptics of belonging to a worldwide conspiracy.
You can see such stark raving paranoia from many of the most rabid alarmists. In the US that paranoia is still supported by the mainstream press, but too many of the public are getting wise to the madness. As I told Phil Plait, I pity Naomi Oreskes for her paranoia, and I feel sorry for Jeffrey Sachs for his fear.
There is so much pathology.
===========
Peter Hearnden (03:13:12) : states…
“I just don’t see why, if the sceptic case is so strong, it can’t be placed under the same scrutiny as the science? What has the sceptic case got to hide?”
Hum?, first of all if the climate scientists had released their data and metadata, as requested years ago, there would have been no need for the e-mails to be released. As far as I know S. Mosher is not proposing anything, and his questions are very upfront, so what are you trying to decipher by your absurd proposal, what would you hope to gain? Third, the proposals for preventing CAGW will, for certain, cost trillions of dollars and disrupt billions of lives, and without India and China fully aboard with like measures, achieve virtually no effect; and the benefits of doubled CO2 (which are known) may out weigh the negative consequences (which are ifs and maybes), we simply do not know, we just know we have certain costs, with very uncertain results, this equalls bad policy. Fourth, the skeptics such as M&M, do make their data available, or have you not been paying attention.
“Remember, if the sceptic case is wrong but we act upon it, then it will be scepticism that costs the world BILLIONS!.”
I think you mean, if we choose not to act, unless you consider non action, to be action, which is sort of like considering cooling to be warming (-: See above for policy comments. The precautionary principal does not apply for the case of CAGW.
And fifth, the skeptic case is science also, indeed more so, as the e-mail release shows.
Jones opened his mouth a couple of times during yesterday’s hearing to change feet.
Gaz — You so-called sceptics are tying yourselves into knots trying desperately to prove that the intrumental temperature records are wrong… [snip]”
You’re confused and a bit like that Peter guy. The job of warming advocates is to prove their case. Skeptics doubt their case. Skeptics don’t disprove, they merely ask for proof.
That the temperature seems to be rising is self-evident; the Thames used to freeze up as did the Hudson. No longer. However, before the cooling of what’s called the Little Ice Age (LIA) occured, these rivers did not freeze. Vikings were farming Greenland; England had a great deal of viticulture; even today it’s still too cold for these things. These are all things known from historical written record, archaeology, etc.
Knowing this, it is therefore logical to ask whether or not the rising temps are natural recovery from the LIA, part of a natural cycle, etc. It is up to the warming advocates, who claim that it isn’t natural, to provide proof that rising temps are not natural. It is not up to the skeptics to prove otherwise; by definition skeptics are simply demanding the extraordinary proof that is required for an extraordinary claim. Warming advocates are making the claim. Skeptics are not. The burden of proof belongs to the claimant.
Regarding proof, the IPCC output is riddled with editorials from eco-groups touted as ‘scientific evidence’ mixed with a series of papers of unknown quality given that much of the source of these is hidden. In this day and age, proof doesn’t consist of editorials, opinions, and graphs derived from mysterious and shrouded data and/or methods. In recent months it is being demonstrated unequivocally that what has been claimed as proof is actually nothing of the sort.
So where does that leave us?
Most of the skeptical community would like little more than to remove the secret witch doctor mask from the process. (This is the 21st century, not medieval Europe.) If the world is warming due to man, then it will be proven OPENLY and we’ll deal with it. But no back room stuff, no hidden data, no secret deals.
On a personal note, the advocate’s argument sounds eerily similar to that which is in Ken Follet’s Pillars Of The Earth where medieval priests are convinced of their obviously superior knowledge of medicine (because they studied Galen!) and using this authority like a club to ban (working) practices like washing hands in vinegar between patients because it’s unscientific (not what they learned.)
At least when the Mayan priests scared the populace into submission via lunar eclipse prediction they were using knowledge. Jones, Hansen, Mann, Briffa — less trustworthy than Mayan shamans.
“As before the stations with normal values do not get used.”
There must be millions of normal values pushed aside to just allow the abnormal values and not incorporating these would make value left look more menacing.
These people know exactly what they are doing and expected to have free funding without anyone reviewing their raw data.
Why would anyone? The umbrella of the UN is protected information.
To alter or destroy any science is to manipulate it to your own means!
This creates many believers that are manipulated and hard to sway back as it was published and must be true then.
Gaz @ur momisugly 3:29:38
You have put your finger on the real crime of the alarmists. Truly, we no longer know what we know or don’t know. Had they not blindly insisted on the settledness of the science, we might have made real progress toward the truth rather than chasing the chimera of carbon demonization.
================
How many FOI requests did they get? It seems to me the relevance of the ‘make work’ FOI requests is proportional to the number they received. If they received 5,000 with McIntyre’s being just one, to which they have to respond to emails, taylor the data to the requests, etc. then that is something to talk about. Does anybody know the numbers of requests we are talking about?
2 FOI requests is not ‘make work’. Thx
REPLY: Sixty FOI requests, most for the same thing, which could have been satisfied under a blanket release. – A
Gaz (03:29:38) :
This is all really sad.
You so-called sceptics are tying yourselves into knots trying desperately to prove that the intrumental temperature records are wrong, the UHI effects that have been allowed for are biasing the data, that the satellite records are wrong, that all the different proxy reconstructions are wrong, that the temperature data you think are rubbish show the world is cooling, that the glaciers aren’t retreating, that the ice caps aren’t losing volume, that the ice shelves aren’t disintegrating, that the saturation argument wasn’t disproved 60 years ago, that species aren’t migrating their habitats, that growing seasons aren’t changing …
What’s really sad is that you forgot to add “that the sea level hasn’t risen 20 feet since 1989, that millions of species are going extinct every year, that dozens of Force 5 hurricanes have been lashing the Gulf Coast every year since An Inconvenient Truth came out, and that Teh Earth is going to explode like a kitten in a microwave.”
Geez, if you’re going to use talking points to refute data, use *all* the talking points.
That is “Progressive Ethics”
@Peter Hearnden (03:13:12) :
“Hello, the personal stuff starts.
I just don’t see why, if the sceptic case is so strong, it can’t be placed under the same scrutiny as the science? What has the sceptic case got to hide?
Remember, if the sceptic case is wrong but we act upon it, then it will be scepticism that costs the world BILLIONS!”
The burden of proof does not lie with the skeptics. The burden of proof lies with the persons forming the hypothesis, in this case it is the warmists / AGW crowd. Another tenet of science is that the claims must be falsifiable. That is why the persons making the claims must freely share their methods and data, so other scientists can attempt to reproduce them, or if the claims appear to be invalid, to attempt to shred them. That’s the way science works. (I have nearly 30 years of experience working in an academic research department at an Ivy League University, so know a bit about the process.) This sharing clearly has not been done (i.e. “The dog ate my data!”), hence the FOI requests. And to spend large sums of money acting on a hypothesis (Anthropogenic Global Warming /Climate Change) that has not only NOT been verified, but has many contraindications is a fool’s mission.
Peter Hearnden (03:13:12) :
I just don’t see why, if the sceptic case is so strong, it can’t be placed under the same scrutiny as the science? What has the sceptic case got to hide?
Remember, if the sceptic case is wrong but we act upon it, then it will be scepticism that costs the world BILLIONS!
…so I’ll go and do something more productive for a while.
The phrase “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” comes to mind. Perhaps you’ve heard of it? You see, before “post-normal science”, when science was just science, skepticism was the norm. The bigger the claim, the more evidence was required. Common sense to most, but something AGW Believers have difficulty with, I guess. The claims of AGW, that we humans, through our additions of C02 to the atmosphere are causing the climate to either heat up or to change dangerously are indeed huge.
But, in answer to your ridiculous question, “What has the sceptic case got to hide?”, the answer is, nothing at all. The skeptic case, as you put it, is about bringing back basic scientific principles, which have been run roughshod over by climate scientists like Jones. What skeptics, or climate realists want essentially is the truth, nothing more, and nothing less.
I see you are now whining about things “getting personal”, which is a typical troll tactic, playing the victim card. As far as doing something “more productive” – good idea. You might try reading a bit beyond the usual AGW claptrap. Here are a few links to try:
http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=1396
http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=1396
http://climaterealists.com/index.php?id=1302
“Peter Hearnden (02:56:07) :
So, we’re not all equal under the law. That’s bunkum.”
Most people certainly are not, that’s the most people, like myself, who cannot afford expensive lawyers, like Jones, Gore, Mann et al.
You should remove your blinkers.
Pete (03:03:18) :
Re 3×2 (02:46:01):
As I recall, correct me if I am wrong, Jones did not even release the station list (their identities) and still claims to have released all data and methods necessary for other scientist to replicate his findings. You don’t need any witnesses for that, it should be easy to verify it with help of documents.
Just pointing out that potential expert witnesses would all be from the same incestuous little clique identified in climategate and by Wegman. Most of them having as much to loose as Jones himself.
Jeez said: “I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you”.
Just great! Copied, filed, deserves to be immortilized.
Would you please drop by my blog (El Atril del Orador”) and let me know your real name?