Climategate: Plausibility and the blogosphere in the post-normal age.

I’m honored to offer this guest post by Jerome Ravetz, of Oxford University in the UK. Mr. Ravetz is an environmental consultant and professor of philosophy of science best known for his books challenging the assumptions of scientific objectivity, discussing the science wars and post-normal science. Read more about him at his personal web page here, his Oxford page here, or at his blog the Post-normal Times. Also, my thanks to WUWT regular “tallbloke” for his facilitation. – Anthony

Guest post by Jerome Ravetz

At the end of January 2010 two distinguished scientific institutions shared headlines with Tony Blair over accusations of the dishonest and possibly illegal manipulation of information.  Our ‘Himalayan glaciers melting by 2035’  of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is matched by his ‘dodgy dossier’ of Saddam’s fictitious subversions.  We had the violations of the Freedom of Information Act at the University of East Anglia; he has the extraordinary 70-year gag rule on the David Kelly suicide file. There was ‘the debate is over’ on one side, and ‘WMD beyond doubt’ on the other. The parallels are significant and troubling, for on both sides they involve a betrayal of public trust.

Politics will doubtless survive, for it is not a fiduciary institution; but for science the dangers are real.  Climategate is particularly significant because it cannot be blamed on the well-known malign influences from outside science, be they greedy corporations or an unscrupulous State.  This scandal, and the resulting crisis, was created by people within science who can be presumed to have been acting with the best of intentions.  In the event of a serious discrediting of the global-warming claims, public outrage would therefore be directed at the community of science itself, and (from within that community) at its leaders who were either ignorant or complicit until the scandal was blown open.  If we are to understand Climategate, and move towards a restoration of trust, we should consider the structural features of the situation that fostered and nurtured the damaging practices.  I believe that the ideas of Post-Normal Science (as developed by Silvio Funtowicz and myself) can help our understanding.

There are deep problems of the management of uncertainty in science in the policy domain, that will not be resolved by more elaborate quantification.  In the gap between science and policy, the languages, their conventions and their implications are effectively incommensurable.  It takes determination and skill for a scientist who is committed to social responsibility, to avoid becoming a ‘stealth advocate’ (in the terms of Roger Pielke Jr.).  When the policy domain seems unwilling or unable to recognise plain and urgent truths about a problem, the contradictions between scientific probity and campaigning zeal become acute.  It is a perennial problem for all policy-relevant science, and it seems to have happened on a significant scale in the case of climate science.  The management of uncertainty and quality in such increasingly common situations is now an urgent task for the governance of science.

We can begin to see what went seriously wrong when we examine what the leading practitioners of this ‘evangelical science’ of global warming (thanks to Angela Wilkinson) took to be the plain and urgent truth in their case.  This was not merely that there are signs of exceptional disturbance in the ecosphere due to human influence, nor even that the climate might well be changing more rapidly now than for a very long time.  Rather, they propounded, as a proven fact, Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming.  There is little room for uncertainty in this thesis; it effectively needs hockey-stick behaviour in all indicators of global temperature, so that it is all due to industrialisation.  Its iconic image is the steadily rising graph of CO2 concentrations over the past fifty years at the Mauna Loa volcano in Hawaii (with the implicit assumption that CO2  had always previously been at or below that starting level).  Since CO2 has long been known to be a greenhouse gas, with scientific theories quantifying its effects, the scientific case for this dangerous trend could seem to be overwhelmingly simple, direct, and conclusive.

In retrospect, we can ask why this particular, really rather extreme view of the prospect, became the official one.  It seems that several causes conspired.  First, the early opposition to any claim of climate change was only partly scientific; the tactics of the opposing special interests were such as to induce the proponents to adopt a simple, forcefully argued position.  Then, once the position was adopted, its proponents became invested in it, and attached to it, in all sorts of ways, institutional and personal.  And I suspect that a simplified, even simplistic claim, was more comfortable for these scientists than one where complexity and uncertainty were acknowledged.  It is not merely a case of the politicians and public needing a simple, unequivocal message.  As Thomas Kuhn described ‘normal science’, which (as he said) nearly all scientists do all the time, it is puzzle-solving within an unquestioned framework or ‘paradigm’.  Issues of uncertainty and quality are not prominent in ‘normal’ scientific training, and so they are less easily conceived and managed by its practitioners.

Now, as Kuhn saw, this ‘normal’ science has been enormously successful in enabling our unprecedented understanding and control of the world around us.  But his analysis related to the sciences of the laboratory, and by extension the technologies that could reproduce stable and controllable external conditions for their working.  Where the systems under study are complicated, complex or poorly understood, that ‘textbook’ style of investigation becomes less, sometimes much less, effective.  The near-meltdown of the world’s financial system can be blamed partly on naïvely reductionist economics and misapplied simplistic statistics.  The temptation among ‘normal’ scientists is to work as if their material is as simple as in the lab.  If nothing else, that is the path to a steady stream of publications, on which a scientific career now so critically depends.  The most obvious effect of this style is the proliferation of computer simulations, which give the appearance of solved puzzles even when neither data nor theory provide much support for the precision of their numerical outputs.  Under such circumstances, a refined appreciation of uncertainty in results is inhibited, and even awareness of quality of workmanship can be atrophied.

In the course of the development of climate-change science, all sorts of loose ends were left unresolved and sometimes unattended.  Even the most fundamental quantitative parameter of all, the forcing factor relating the increase in mean temperature to a doubling of CO2, lies somewhere between 1 and 3 degrees, and is thus uncertain to within a factor of 3.  The precision (at about 2%) in the statements of the ‘safe limits’ of CO2 concentration, depending on calculations with this factor, is not easily justified.  Also, the predictive power of the global temperature models has been shown to depend more on the ‘story line’ than anything else, the end-of century increase in temperature ranging variously from a modest one degree to a catastrophic six.  And the ‘hockey stick’ picture of the past, so crucial for the strict version of the climate change story, has run into increasingly severe problems.  As an example, it relied totally on a small set of deeply uncertain tree-ring data for the Medieval period, to refute the historical evidence of a warming then; but it needed to discard that sort of data for recent decades, as they showed a sudden cooling from the 1960’s onwards!  In the publication, the recent data from other sources were skilfully blended in so that the change was not obvious; that was the notorious ‘Nature trick’ of the CRU e-mails.

Even worse, for the warming case to have political effect, a mere global average rise in temperature was not compelling enough.  So that people could appreciate the dangers, there needed to be predictions of future climate – or even weather – in the various regions of the world.  Given the gross uncertainties in even the aggregated models, regional forecasts are really beyond the limits of science.  And yet they have been provided, with various degrees of precision.  Those announced by the IPCC have become the most explosive.

As all these anomalies and unsolved puzzles emerged, the neat, compelling picture became troubled and even confused.  In Kuhn’s analysis, this would be the start of a ‘pre-revolutionary’ phase of normal science.  But the political cause had been taken up by powerful advocates, like Al Gore.  We found ourselves in another crusading ‘War’, like those on (non-alcoholic) Drugs and ‘Terror’.  This new War, on Carbon, was equally simplistic, and equally prone to corruption and failure.  Global warming science became the core element of this major worldwide campaign to save the planet.  Any weakening of the scientific case would have amounted to a betrayal of the good cause, as well as a disruption of the growing research effort.  All critics, even those who were full members of the scientific peer community, had to be derided and dismissed.  As we learned from the CRU e-mails, they were not considered to be entitled to the normal courtesies of scientific sharing and debate.  Requests for information were stalled, and as one witty blogger has put it, ‘peer review’ was replaced by ‘pal review’.

Even now, the catalogue of unscientific practices revealed in the mainstream media is very small in comparison to what is available on the blogosphere.  Details of shoddy science and dirty tricks abound.  By the end, the committed inner core were confessing to each other that global temperatures were falling, but it was far too late to change course.  The final stage of corruption, cover-up, had taken hold.  For the core scientists and the leaders of the scientific communities, as well as for nearly all the liberal media, ‘the debate was over’.  Denying Climate Change received the same stigma as denying the Holocaust.  Even the trenchant criticisms of the most egregious errors in the IPCC reports were kept ‘confidential’.  And then came the e-mails.

We can understand the root cause of Climategate as a case of scientists constrained to attempt to do normal science in a post-normal situation. But climate change had never been a really ‘normal’ science, because the policy implications were always present and strong, even overwhelming.  Indeed, if we look at the definition of ‘post-normal science’, we see how well it fits:  facts uncertain,values in dispute, stakes high, and decisions urgent.  In needing to treat Planet Earth like a textbook exercise, the climate scientists were forced to break the rules of scientific etiquette and ethics, and to play scientific power-politics in a way that inevitably became corrupt.  The combination of non-critical ‘normal science’ with anti-critical ‘evangelical science’ was lethal. As in other ‘gate’ scandals, one incident served to pull a thread on a tissue of protective plausibilities and concealments, and eventually led to an unravelling.  What was in the e-mails could be largely explained in terms of embattled scientists fighting off malicious interference; but the materials ready and waiting on the blogosphere provided a background, and that is what converted a very minor scandal to a catastrophe.

Consideration of those protective plausibilities can help to explain how the illusions could persist for so long until their sudden collapse.  The scientists were all reputable, they published in leading peer-reviewed journals, and their case was itself highly plausible and worthy in a general way.  Individual criticisms were, for the public and perhaps even for the broader scientific community, kept isolated and hence muffled and lacking in systematic significance.  And who could have imagined that at its core so much of the science was unsound?  The plausibility of the whole exercise was, as it were, bootstrapped.  I myself was alerted to weaknesses in the case by some caveats in Sir David King’s book The Hot Topic; and I had heard of the hockey-stick affair.  But even I was carried along by the bootstrapped plausibility, until the scandal broke. (I have benefited from the joint project on plausibility in science of colleagues in Oxford and at the Arizona State University).

Part of the historic significance of Climategate is that the scandal was so effectively and quickly exposed.  Within a mere two months of the first reports in the mainstream media, the key East Anglia scientists and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change were discredited.  Even if only a fraction of their scientific claims were eventually refuted, their credibility as trustworthy scientists was lost.  To explain how it all happened so quickly and decisively, we have the confluence of two developments, one social and the other technical.  For the former, there is a lesson of Post-Normal Science, that we call the Extended Peer Community.  In traditional ‘normal’ science, the peer community, performing the functions of quality-assurance and governance, is strictly confined to the researchers who share the paradigm.  In the case of ‘professional consultancy’, the clients and/or sponsors also participate in governance.  We have argued that in the case of Post-Normal Science, the ‘extended peer community’, including all affected by the policy being implemented, must be fully involved.  Its particular contribution will depend on the nature of the core scientific problem, and also on the phase of investigation.  Detailed technical work is a task for experts, but quality-control on even that work can be done by those with much broader expertise.  And on issues like the definition of the problem itself, the selection of personnel, and crucially the ownership of the results, the extended peer community has full rights of participation.  This principle is effectively acknowledged in many jurisdictions, and for many policy-related problems.  The theory of Post-Normal Science goes beyond the official consensus in recognising ‘extended facts’, that might be local knowledge and values, as well as unoffficially obtained information.

The task of creating and involving the extended peer community (generally known as ‘participation’) has been recognised as difficult, with its own contradictions and pitfalls.  It has grown haphazardly, with isolated successes and failures.  Hitherto, critics of scientific matters have been relegated to a sort of samizdat world, exchanging private letters or writing books that can easily be ignored (as not being peer-reviewed) by the ruling establishment.  This has generally been the fate of even the most distinguished and responsible climate-change critics, up to now.  A well-known expert in uncertainty management, Jeroen van der Sluijs, explicitly condemned the ‘overselling of certainty’ and predicted the impending destruction of trust; but he received no more attention than did Nikolas Taleb in warning of the ‘fat tails’ in the probability distributions of securities that led to the Credit Crunch. A prominent climate scientist, Mike Hulme, provided a profound analysis in Why We Disagree About Climate Change, in terms of complexity and uncertainty.  But since legitimate disagreement was deemed nonexistent, he too was ignored.

To have a political effect, the ‘extended peers’ of science have traditionally needed to operate largely by means of activist pressure-groups using the media to create public alarm. In this case, since the global warmers had captured the moral high ground, criticism has remained scattered and ineffective, except on the blogosphere.  The position of Green activists is especially difficult, even tragic; they have been ‘extended peers’ who were co-opted into the ruling paradigm, which in retrospect can be seen as a decoy or diversion from the real, complex issues of sustainability, as shown by Mike Hulme.  Now they must do some very serious re-thinking about their position and their role.

The importance of the new media of communications in mass politics, as in the various ‘rainbow revolutions’ is well attested.  To understand how the power-politics of science have changed in the case of Climategate, we can take a story from the book Here Comes Everybody by Clay Shirkey.  There were two incidents in the Boston U.S.A. diocese of the Roman Catholic Church, involving the shuffling of paeodophile priests around parishes.  The first time, there was a criminal prosecution, with full exposure in the press, and then nothing happened.  The second time, the outraged parents got on their cell phones and organised; and eventually Cardinal Archbishop Bernard Francis Law (who had started as a courageous cleric in the ‘60’s) had to leave for Rome in disgrace.  The Climategate affair shows the  importance of the new IT for science, as an empowerment of the extended peer community.

The well-known principle, ‘knowledge is power’ has its obverse, ‘ignorance is impotence’.  And ignorance is maintained, or eventually overcome, by a variety of socio-technical means.  With the invention of cheap printing on paper, the Bible could be widely read, and heretics became Reformers. The social activity of science as we know it expanded and grew through the age of printing.  But knowledge was never entirely free, and the power-politics of scientific legitimacy remained quite stable for centuries.  The practice of science has generally been restricted to a social elite and its occasional recruits, as it requires a prior academic education and a sufficiency of leisure and of material resources.  With the new information technology, all that is changing rapidly.  As we see from the ‘open source’ movement, many people play an active role in enjoyable technological development in the spare time that their job allows or even encourages.  Moreover, all over IT there are blogs that exercise quality control on the industry’s productions.  In this new knowledge industry, the workers can be as competent as the technicians and bosses.  The new technologies of information enable the diffusion of scientific competence and the sharing of unofficial information, and hence give power to peer communities that are extended far beyond the Ph.D.s in the relevant subject-specialty.  The most trenchant and effective critics of the ‘hockey stick’ statistics were a University-employed economist and a computer expert.

Like any other technology, IT is many-faceted.  It is easily misused and abused, and much of the content of the blogosphere is trivial or worse.  The right-wing political agendas of some climate sceptics, their bloggers and their backers, are quite well known.  But to use their background or motivation as an excuse for ignoring their arguments, is a betrayal of science.  The  blogosphere interacts with other media of communication, in the public and scientific domains.  Some parts are quite mainstream, others not.  The Climategate blogosphere is as varied in quality as any other.  Some leading scholars, like Roger Pielke, Jr. have had personal blogs for a long time.  Some blogs are carefully monitored, have a large readership and are sampled by the mainstream media (such as the one on which this is posted, Wattsupwiththat.com).  Others are less rigorous; but the same variation in quality can be found in the nominally peer-reviewed scientific literature.  Keeping up with the blogosphere requires different skills from keeping up with traditional literature; it is most useful to find a summarising blog that fits one’s special interests, as well as a loyal correspondent, as (in my case) Roger ‘tallbloke’ Tattersall.

Some mainstream publications are now saying nice things about the blogosphere.  Had such sentiments been expressed a while ago, the critical voices might have had a public hearing and the Climategate scandal might have been exposed before it became entrenched so disastrously.  And now the critical blogosphere does not need to be patronised.  Like any extension of political power, whether it be the right to believe, to protest, to vote, to form trades unions, or to be educated, it can lead to instabilities and abuses.  But now the extended peer community has a technological base, and the power-politics of science will be different.  I cannot predict how it will work out, but we can be confident that corruptions built on bootstrapped plausibility will be less likely in the future.

There is an important philosophical dimension to Climategate, a question of the relation of personal scientific ethics to objective scientific facts.  The problem is created by the traditional image of science (as transmitted in scientific education) as ‘value-free’.  The personal commitments to integrity, that are necessary for the maintenance of scientific quality, receive no mention in the dominant philosophy of science. Kuhn’s disenchanted picture of science was so troubling to the idealists (as Popper) because in his ‘normal’ science criticism had hardly any role.  For Kuhn, even the Mertonian principles of ethical behaviour were effectively dismissed as irrelevant.  Was this situation truly ‘normal’ – meaning either average or (worse) appropriate?  The examples of shoddy science exposed by the Climategate convey a troubling impression.  From the record, it appears that in this case, criticism and a sense of probity needed to be injected into the system by the extended peer community from the (mainly) external blogosphere.

The total assurance of the mainstream scientists in their own correctness and in the intellectual and moral defects of their critics, is now in retrospect perceived as arrogance.  For their spokespersons to continue to make light of the damage to the scientific case, and to ignore the ethical dimension of Climategate, is to risk public outrage at a perceived unreformed arrogance. If there is a continuing stream of ever more detailed revelations, originating in the blogosphere but now being brought to a broader public, then the credibility of the established scientific authorities will continue to erode.  Do we face the prospect of the IPCC reports being totally dismissed as just more dodgy dossiers, and of hitherto trusted scientists being accused of negligence or worse?  There will be those who with their own motives will be promoting such a picture.  How can it be refuted?

And what about the issue itself?  Are we really experiencing Anthropogenic Carbon-based Global Warming?  If the public loses faith in that claim, then the situation of science in our society will be altered for the worse. There is very unlikely to be a crucial experience that either confirms or refutes the claim; the post-normal situation is just too complex. The consensus is likely to depend on how much trust can still be put in science.  The whole vast edifice of policy commitments for Carbon reduction, with their many policy prescriptions and quite totalitarian moral exhortations, will be at risk of public rejection.  What sort of chaos would then result?  The consequences for science in our civilisation would be extraordinary.

To the extent that the improved management of uncertainty and ignorance can remedy the situation, some useful tools are at hand.  In the Netherlands, scholars and scientists have developed ‘Knowledge Quality Assessment’ methodologies for characterising uncertainty in ways that convey the richness of the phenomenon while still performing well as robust tools of analysis and communication.  Elsewhere, scholars are exploring methods for managing disagreement among scientists, so that such post-normal issues do not need to become so disastrously polarised.  A distinguished scholar, Sheila Jasanoff, has called for a culture of humility among scientists, itself a radical move towards a vision of a non-violent science.  Scientists who have been forced to work on the blogosphere have had the invaluable experience of exclusion and oppression; that could make it easier for them to accept that something is seriously wrong and then to engage in the challenging moral adventures of dealing with uncertainty and ignorance.  The new technologies of communications are revolutionising knowledge and power in many areas.  The extended peer community of science on the blogosphere will be playing its part in that process.  Let dialogue commence!

——————-

My thanks to numerous friends and colleagues for their loyal assistance through all the drafts of this essay.  The final review at a seminar at the Institute of Science, Innovation and Society at Oxford University was very valuable, particularly the intervention from ‘the man in the bus queue’.

Get notified when a new post is published.
Subscribe today!
5 1 vote
Article Rating
596 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
tallbloke
February 15, 2010 4:41 pm

Willis Eschenbach (15:09:12) :
If you are “fearful of the reception you are going to get”, you should not be a scientist. I can’t tell you the abuse I’ve taken for my scientific posts. I’m called a liar and worse on a regular basis … so what? That’s why I coined the term “Science is a blood sport”. That’s why I quote Truman, “If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.” That’s science, and has always been. Read the papers from the 1700s and 1800s, no holds barred.
The main problem that I have with this thread, tb, is that Ravetz hasn’t come back to defend his ideas. He’s the one that’s talking about the new, interactive, citizen driven science … but where is Citizen Ravetz?

Well, this is it I guess. Ravetz is a philosophical scholar, not a ruffty tuffty lab scientist with battle scars all over. He was undecided about wading into the thread or waiting to see what shape it took and then posting a ‘reply to points raised’. I think the Marxism slur turned him off. He resigned from politics a long time ago, observing that he found himself more in agreement with the more cerebral members of the opposition than the more vocal of his comrades. He has promised to do some sort of follow-up though.
And to you as well, tb. You are the man in the middle, I don’t envy you
Thanks for that. I’ve got broad shoulders and an even temper (mostly). Seeing the comments coming from the warmista on the Guardian site, I feel the same for him at the moment. I told him before he came here that the middle of the road was a tricky place to stand, and that he would get shot from both sides.
He replied:
“Chocks away”

Editor
February 15, 2010 7:15 pm

tallbloke (16:41:25)


Well, this is it I guess. Ravetz is a philosophical scholar, not a ruffty tuffty lab scientist with battle scars all over. He was undecided about wading into the thread or waiting to see what shape it took and then posting a ‘reply to points raised’. I think the Marxism slur turned him off. He resigned from politics a long time ago, observing that he found himself more in agreement with the more cerebral members of the opposition than the more vocal of his comrades. He has promised to do some sort of follow-up though.

Ooooh, poor widdle baby Jerry, we insulted his cerebral sensitivities by calling him a big bad Marxist so he took his toys and went home …
Now, you claim that he “resigned from politics”, but he sure hasn’t resigned from Marxism …

I think I told you a funny story about my return from Istanbul where I was sitting on a train opposite some historians of science. This was the days of the recombinant DNA issues and they were on the anti-side. One was an American at Leeds. (This was Jerry Ravetz!) The other was a woman who may have been at Michigan at that time. I didn’t look like a scientist because there I was in a leather jacket having come back from Istanbul so I looked like a tourist – an American tourist in England. The train had seats facing each other – a little table between them – one of the old fashioned trains on the King’s Cross Line. They spent the entire trip, an hour and a half between London and Cambridge, basically doing a Marxist analysis of the recombinant DNA debate. Of course they were criticizing all my closest friends.

Here’s Ravetz from 2007:

The theory of Post-Normal Science…needs to be renewed and enriched…The time is not ripe for a modification of PNS, and so the best move forward is to raise the issue of Sustainability. For that I sketch a theory of complex systems, with special attention to pathologies and failures. That provides the foundation for a use of ‘contradiction’ as a problem incapable of resolution in its own terms, and also of ‘characteristic contradiction’ that drives a system to a crisis. With those materials it is possible to state the characteristic contradiction of our modern industrial civilisation, and provide a diagram with heuristic power.

How on earth is that not a Marxist analysis stem to stern?
Ravetz 2002:

blah blah blah although Marx’s ‘labour theory of value’ has not been accepted by economists, ironically it has become the implicit basis for the valuation of people, both on the labour market and then off it as well. For it is increasingly asumed that people acquire their value on the labour market only in respect of what they can contribute the the specific purposes for which their labour is bought. The wider context of human values (and valuation) which Marx strove so hard to preserve through his political struggles has been progressively diluted ; in the current atmosphere of economic pressure through continuous tecnological innovation at (almost?) all costs, this wider human context often seems at best marginal.
However, Marx was right in focusing on some special factor relating to human involvement in productive processes blah blah blah

So how is it a “slur” to call him a Marxist, when he obviously is one, dialectic and all? Or do you actually believe that he’s not a Marxist?
Or were you saying that it was a “slur” to say that Marx’s ideas had led to more murdered people than anyone one else in the history of mankind? Bad news, the truth is an absolute defense against slander …
So just what anti-Marx “slur” got his high-thread-count 100% cotton knickers in a twist? And why should we care?
Look, this is the genius who came up with the plan that was used to muzzle honest decent scientists around the planet, including myself. So don’t expect a shred of sympathy from me. He is one of the founding fathers of the IPCC school of scientific totalitarianism. You seem to think we should tiptoe around him and cut him slack because he is 80, or because he is sensitive to “slurs”, or because he is famous, or because the word “Oxford” excites class envy, or something.
[snip] He is responsible for huge human misery, including a good chunk of mine. The amount of damage that his ideas have done to science is inconceivable, immensurable. But he won’t discuss that, he is totally unrepentant as far as I can tell. In an honest world, he’d be in jail, not in Oxford, for heinous crimes against science and for the muzzling of freedom of speech.
But he’s too sensitive to take on that whole topic, after all, he’s a “cerebral” guy not a “vocal” guy, doesn’t want to get his hands dirty by actually involving himself in public discussion …
You remember public discussion, the kind of discourse that he lauds, that he think is wonderful, the kind of interaction he claims to support and further? But that’s all so crass and far too “vocal’ for him, so he refuses to talk to the “extended peer community” that he worships from afar.
I warned both you and him, way, way back upthread, that he needed to come out of his ivory closet and discuss these issues. I warned that if he did not do so, it would go very hard on him. I warned that he needed to defend what he has claimed, and to explain what he means.
Instead, he has written a page, but hasn’t shown it to us. Instead, he has run from some fancied “slur”, and sits quietly licking his imaginary wounds.
Big mistake … I tried to tell him.

February 16, 2010 10:07 am

As I was looking into PNS in the IPCC, I came across Ravetz’s PNS being cited in the context of extended peer review to justify how Greenpeace and other advocacy groups got involved in the ‘peer-review’ process. No wonder so much advocacy material ended up being cited.
Hans von Storch has a paper in Leviathan Volume 37, Number 2 / June, 2009 (in German) Klimaforschung und Politikberatung – zwischen Bringeschuld und Postnormalität (Climate research and policy advice between Bringeschuld and postnormality). In translation he makes the point that
“Climate science is being used by various social groups as support for achieving their interests – as is common for a post-normal phase.”
That is exactly what Mike Hulme explicitly says we should be doing – pursuing it not as a science, but as a social (philosophical, theological…) construct to further political ends (socialism, in his case).
In another paper in European Physical Journal – Special Topics, Volume 176, Number 1 / September, 2009 Von Storch makes some interesting, and refreshingly honest, observations about matters of faith and ‘trust’ in AGW:
“…How fast can climate change when only natural causes are operating? This rate may be described by a probability distribution…This distribution is not known…It is not possible to prove that the estimation is “right”; we can only show that it is consistent with the little knowledge we have. I personally believe that our estimates are approximately correct – but I have to admit that I may be wrong with that assessment.
…the quality of estimating the magnitude of naturally caused variability is a key issue in this exercise. This magnitude is not known but must be estimated. Accepting its estimated value is a matter of trust. If somebody believes that the estimate is inadequate because of the limited data base, then I can not disprove this assertion. The same is true for my belief that the data base is good enough to allow a reasonable educated guess of this quantity – possible opponents are not able to prove that I am wrong.
…We humans – at least in the western culture – seem to be predisposed to accept “anthropogenic climate change” as an acceptable explanation for uncommon events even if they are natural and simply rare. This may be one of the reasons why the prophets of “climate catastrophes” and disasters are so successful in communicating with the general public – they articulate a primal fear, so to speak an eigen-oscillation of public perception.
…often the implicit assumption is made that when a climate change signal is detected in the global mean temperature, which is attributable to increased greenhouse gas concentrations, then all extraordinary meteorological events, like disastrous storms or extensive floods, must also be causally related to this anthropogenic climate change…There are even scientists who admit that exaggeration of the threat of climate change would be in order – because
without exaggeration the public would not take the threat sufficiently serious (Bray and von Storch, 2007).
…If every extreme event is considered a support of the concept of anthropogenic climate change – how would we be able to falsify the hypothesis of anthropogenic climate change, if it would actually be false? Only by the absence of extreme events – which would, on the other hand, be a sure proof of climate change, as extreme events are integral parts of the statistics of weather.
The emphasis on “protection of climate” and the wrong causality of emissions and weather extremes is…a detrimental disinformation. It causes people to falsely believe that normal weather extremes are really related to climate change, and that such extreme would no more happen as soon as a successful climate policy is installed. The vulnerability against weather extremes is enhanced because of the false perception that we are facing a
revengeful environment which is striking back against the perpetrator instead of the view that extremes of this sort are “normal” and need preparation on our side even if these events are rare.”

Tom
February 16, 2010 2:04 pm

Why do Communists & Fascist always turn into totalitarian states? They are godless or occult, read history. It is because they have a heap of pride. They know better. They trust in man as a god. They mimic god. They want to know all… What is so hard to understand?

tallbloke
February 17, 2010 1:05 pm

Jerry Ravetz has written a long and very interesting followup to the thread. It covers some history, both personal and relating to the climate science story, and squares up to the criticism he has had here.
I have sent it to Anthony for his consideration and asked him to additionally host and link the page on ‘Quality’ a concept whose applicability to science vexed some contributors, if he decides to publish it.
I won’t be around for the debate, as I fly to Spain for ten days backpacking in the mountains with my lady tomorrow. I’ve asked Jerry to join in this time as his schedule permits. Play nice, and remember, the more you give people the chance to speak, the more you learn about them and yourself.
Regards to all
tb.

Editor
February 17, 2010 2:46 pm

Thanks, tallbloke, that’s great news. I look forward to reading what Jerry has written.
However, I’m not sure what you mean when you say:

Play nice, and remember, the more you give people the chance to speak, the more you learn about them and yourself.

Play nice I understand, but perhaps you could point out someone who has not been given a chance to speak here …
Have a marvellous time backpacking in Spain with your good lady, what could be better.
w.

tallbloke
February 17, 2010 3:25 pm

Thanks Willis.
I’m talking about the future, not the past, though Jerry has a huge amount of past experience in the science policy arena for everyone to draw on, which is a great opportunity to get an insight into the corridors of power. Could be useful. I’m just trying to say there are a variety of interesting lines of discussion which could be followed, so I hope the airwaves aren’t dominated by any one topic. Anyway, I’ll stop fussing about it, because I won’t be around.
All the best
tb.

D. Patterson
February 17, 2010 7:57 pm

tallbloke (03:56:23) :
D. Patterson (17:55:48) :
tallbloke (16:39:34) :
Which is a quote from Karl Marx taken out of the context in which it permits ruthless dishonesty and deception when used to implement the Marxist ideology. An expression of this Marxist ideology appeared in the form of Lenin’s description of the “useful idiots” who were ruthlessly exterminated in mass genocides regardless of their past Marxist allegiances.
Got a link to what Marx wrote which contains the quote in it’s extended context? Or are you going o secondary sources again?
Didn’t Marx famously say “I am not a Marxist”? What was the context of that quote?
Like Willis, I’m more interested in scientific theories than political ideologies, but I am curious about the demonization of Marx.

Conversely, your critics shake their heads in sad disbelief at how you continue employing classic Marxist-Communist style political rhetoric in the guise of post-normal science while disavowing the negation of genuine science caused by such thinly disguised political rhetoric. Common to such Marxist-Communist rhetoric is your denial of the character, intent, and role of Karl Marx in the instigation of the events perpetrated in the name of Karl Marx and his political ideology. You asked for a quote indicating Marx’s role in leading his followers to commit acts of deeption against those deemed to be the enemies of Marxist-Communism. Note how Marx wrote his manifesto which “abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality….”

The Communist Manifesto”There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.”
What does this accusation reduce itself to? The history of all past society has consisted in the development of class antagonisms, antagonisms that assumed different forms at different epochs.
But whatever form they may have taken, one fact is common to all past ages, viz., the exploitation of one part of society by the other. No wonder, then, that the social consciousness of past ages, despite all the multiplicity and variety it displays, moves within certain common forms, or general ideas, which cannot completely vanish except with the total disappearance of class antagonisms.
The communist revolution is the most radical rupture with traditional relations; no wonder that its development involved the most radical rupture with traditional ideas.
But let us have done with the bourgeois objections to communism.
We have seen above that the first step in the revolution by the working class is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class to win the battle of democracy.
The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state, i.e., of the proletariat organized as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.
Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionizing the mode of production.

There is a fundamental and very real problem to be resolved when a person attempts to debate a question, scientific or non-scientific, with another person who is an adherent to the Marxist-Communist ideology or ideologies. If and when the Marxist-Communist debater deems it is in their own personal interest or the interest of the Marxist-Communist revolutionary movement to lie, cheat, deceive, or otherwise act with dishonesty, the Marxist-Communist person can alwas point to Marx’s Communist Manifesto and justify the dishonesty as a duty of any revolutionary to “abolish” the old morality and it’s morale duty for honesty. The question must be asked and answered how a non-Marxist-Communist person is supposed to be able to know and rely upon the trustworthiness and honesty of any Marxist-Communist person representing themselves and their statements to be of the same moral character and meaning as defined in the non-Marxist-Communist society?
In the field of science, the problem is exacerbated by the The Communist Manifesto and its abolition of such norms, which permits its ideological followers to deem “eternal truths” as abolished and constituted on a new basis. It is quite arguable that the Marxist-Communist and other political Left establishment seek to “use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree,” the perpetual search for objective Truth by the scientific method from today’s society and abolish it by “constituting” post-normal science as the revolutionary replacement for traditional science. Although there may be protestations there is no such purpose or intent for post-normal science, What basis of trustworthiness can there be for promises, assurances, or assessments made by anyone adhering to the Marxist-Communist ideology?
Your critics do genuinely wish to debate the scientific questions and issues presented by Ravetz’s essay. How can they do so, however, when they perceive the essay contains erroneous and perhaps dishonest statements, Ravetz fails to address those concerns, and Ravetz appears to be an adherent to and practioner of a political ideology which declares the abolishement of “eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality…”?

tallbloke
February 18, 2010 12:10 am

D. Patterson (19:57:54) :
I don’t have much time to waste on this but I note:
1) You failed to provde any extension to the quote I originally gave which shows Marx advocating any ruthless deception or dishonesty as you claimed he did.
2) You write:
Note how Marx wrote his manifesto which “abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality….”

The Communist Manifesto”There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.”

Here’s what Marx wrote in the lead-up to the section you quote::

“When the ancient world was in its last throes, the ancient religions were overcome by Christianity. When Christian ideas succumbed in the 18th century to rationalist ideas, feudal society fought its death battle with the then revolutionary bourgeoisie. The ideas of religious liberty and freedom of conscience merely gave expression to the sway of free competition within the domain of knowledge.
“Undoubtedly,” it will be said, “religious, moral, philosophical, and juridical ideas have been modified in the course of historical development. But religion, morality, philosophy, political science, and law, constantly survived this change.”
“There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But Communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.”
What does this accusation reduce itself to?…”

So what’s going on here? You have reduced the context so that it appears that Marx is saying that communism abolishes eternal truths, religion and morality, when it should be obvious to anyone who reads the preceding few lines that Marx is saying that this is an accusation levelled at communism by the new ruling class.
You are the one who is being dishonest and deceptive by curtailing the context and misrepresenting what Marx meant. Or maybe you were quoting a secondary source which snipped the context instead of going to the source. Which is it?
I don’t defend Marxism or communism, but I do defend honest interpretation and balanced assessment.
My assessment is that Marx thought that the way to end class antagonism was to force everyone to be of the same class under a state run communist regime, with the state eventually “withering away” as it would become unnecessary once everyone came to recognise the benefit of ending class war and division. I think he was hopelessly idealistic, and that the project ws doomed to failure, because the will to power would cause individuals to seek to dominate society, which of course is what historically happened under Stalin. But Stalinism is not Marxism, and anyone who thinks it is needs to go learn something about the history of ideas.
then (after some mud slinging following your false analysis) you say:
It is quite arguable that the Marxist-Communist and other political Left establishment seek to “use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree,” the perpetual search for objective Truth by the scientific method from today’s society and abolish it by “constituting” post-normal science as the revolutionary replacement for traditional science.
Go ahead and try to argue it. I advise you to read Ravetz piece on ‘quality’ first though if Anthony hosts and links it as I requested.

Editor
February 18, 2010 1:15 am

In arguing about this word and that word, you guys are missing the point, which is
Marxism –> Totalitarianism –> Murder
Marxism, for reasons unknown, rather than leading to freedom, leads to totalitarianism, and thence to mass murder. It is supposed to result in the leadership of the proletariat, but leads to their death instead.
I don’t know what words and ideas in Marx lead to that result. I just note that, time after time, in society after society, that has been the tragic procession.
In the same way,
Ravetzism –> scientific totalitarianism –> the death of scientific freedom
Again, I don’t know what words and ideas in Ravetz lead to that result. I’m just observing what happens. The IPCC is a perfect example. It was supposed to support science. But instead, it has lead to the promulgation of junk science, along with a demonization of anyone who disagrees with the revealed IPCC religion, complete with claims that “deniers” should be put on trial.
Now, anyone who wants to espouse either of those ideas has a responsibility to first solve that conundrum. Why does that occur? I don’t have a clue myself, because I espouse neither.
But to ignore that reality is a crime to me. To me, before Ravetz takes a single step further in promoting his ideas, he needs to take a long, hard look at how and why his words have ended up with “scientists” calling for folks like myself to be put on trial for scientific heresy. And this is still going on. Bill Nye the Science Guy just announced that anyone who disbelieves in the revealed AGW wisdom is unpatriotic …

“If you want to get serious about it, these guys claiming that the snow in Washington disproves climate change are almost unpatriotic. It’s really, they’re denying science.”

Unpatriotic? Say what? How did patriotism get into the scientific equation?
So I look forward to what Ravetz has to say … but only if he explains how his ideas turned me into a criminal who should be put on trial, and how he intends to fix that.
In any case, tb, have a great holiday, it’s not your problem.

D. Patterson
February 18, 2010 1:30 am

tallbloke (00:10:45) :
I’ll reserve comment on the preceding while I ask the following for clarification:
Do you or do you not also deem Vladimir Lenin and his Leninist-Marxism to be Marxism?

tallbloke
February 18, 2010 1:46 am

Thanks again Willis.
It’s everyones problem, and lynching Jerry Ravetz won’t solve it.
Marxism, Revisionism, McCarthyism, Thisism, Thatism. They all end the same way as the word Schism.
Get it together and have a good constructive debate.
Goodbye freezing Britain, Hola Costa Blanca!

tallbloke
February 18, 2010 2:09 am

D. Patterson (01:30:47) :
tallbloke (00:10:45) :
I’ll reserve comment on the preceding

I’m not surprised. You have been caught out and you know it.
while I ask the following for clarification: Do you or do you not also deem Vladimir Lenin and his Leninist-Marxism to be Marxism?
The clue is in the title. Anyway, what has that got to do the substantive parts of my previous reply to you? You are just stalling and obfuscating. Own up, move on and get a life.
Right, finish packing…

D. Patterson
February 18, 2010 2:15 am

Willis Eschenbach (01:15:56) :
The ideology of Marxism is divided into branches that are typically antagonistic towards each other with respect to certain issues while being united against a common enemy such as non-Marxists or what they describe as Reactionaries. Many self-described Marxists deny Bolshevism and/or other branches of Marxism as being actual Marxism. The distinctions recognized by a self-described Marxist can be bewildering to fellow Marxists, much less to anyone who has no familiarity of Marxism or Communism at all. Consequently, it is quite common for some Marxist-Communists and others citing their evaluations of themselves as being entirely divorced from the crimes of the other branches of Marxism or so-called Marxism. Since they have often suffered persecution alongside other political prisoners in states dominated by Bolshevist regimes, there is some measure of truth to the idea they are not willing participants in some of the crimes. However, the dispute and controversy about any Marxist having responsibilities for the crimes of others claiming to be Marxist-Communists remains a contentious and often bitter argument.
From the cynical viewpoint of an outsider it might be described as a situation where you need a programme or a scorecard to distinguish between the participants and which side or sides they are playing on in the competition for the mantle of true Marxism.
The confusion resulting from the conflicts within the Marxist ideology makes it all that more difficult for outsiders to recognize the values being used to define the measurable output of a post-normal science method.

D. Patterson
February 18, 2010 2:41 am

tallbloke (01:46:32) :
Thanks again Willis.
It’s everyones problem, and lynching Jerry Ravetz won’t solve it.

No one is trying to “lynch” Jerry Ravetz. We are questioning and challenging his statements and our own understandings and misunderstandings of his statements. Doing so cannot be accomplished in a mutual admiration society, hence the frank and direct questioning intended to discover the limits and flaws in the controversies. It is unfortunate that you choose to assume bad faith and bad motives are the only reasons behind such questioning and challenges.
I asked about your position with regard to Lenin’s Marxism to better understand how and why you disavow any connection between the tenets of post-normal science versus those of any form of Marxism, Communism, pseudo-Marxism, or other ‘isms. While you appear to disagree that post-normal science has anything to do with our concerns about Marxism, making the assertions and pointing us to works we are or are not already acquainted with is not going to persuade us to abandon our concerns. Making light of our concerns is certainly not going to endear us to post-normal science or anyone associated with post-normal science. Only those arguments which are rational and persuasive in our points of view rather than your point of view or Ravetz’s point of view will matter to us. We have open minds to the extent we are willing to listen and debate the issues, but we can hardly be expected to surrenderour viewpoints to the first person who proclaims the rectitude of their essays and crys “insult” and “lynching” when challenged on the basis of the wording being used.

ammonite
February 18, 2010 2:58 am

What we are talking about here is the culture that exists inside and outside the scientific community. Try working for local government, try libraries, try hospitals for example. The same collective resonating fear of stating the blindingly obvious at the expense of group think tank or the next way to collect more data to prop up their not so new way forward. No dissent heard, furtive jittery papering of cracks, turning blind eyes, gushing assistance to the new whatever it is mantra. Whispers in the galleries. Hiding the decline is being done more than ever… It is how governments work after all.
This does not negate the responsibility of science perhaps even hands the whole thing over for science to examine. Why should those who question or speak the truth be villified? Why should those who ‘bend to fit’ their findings not re-examine the way and WHY they accomplished their world shattering fear mongering. They are part of the same influences, misguided, encouraged, funded and moulded.
The world needs open debate and open minds. I read these posts with a hopeful sense as many others must, Copenhagen in tatters, the media exposed, there is now a listening watching discerning community out there. Something that has not happened for quite some time.

Zeke the Sneak
February 19, 2010 7:57 pm

ScientistForTruth (15:58:29) :

“science for policy (e.g., Ravetz, 1986) involves being responsive to policymakers’ needs for expert judgment at a particular time, given the information currently available, even if those judgments involve a considerable degree of subjectivity…”

This just means “Post Normal Science” is “close enough for government work.”
The two phrases are interchangable.
Very nice work.

pkerr
February 22, 2010 2:04 pm

Certainly one of the most eloquent descriptions of the challenges conventional scientific culture is experiencing.
It is obvious conventional peer review must evolve and resist the pressures of political advocacy.

RichieRich
March 2, 2010 3:55 pm

ScientistForTruth (15:58:29) :
“science for policy (e.g., Ravetz, 1986) involves being responsive to policymakers’ needs for expert judgment at a particular time, given the information currently available, even if those judgments involve a considerable degree of subjectivity…”
This just means “Post Normal Science” is “close enough for government work.”

slow to follow
March 6, 2010 6:23 am

FWIW – Real Climate still tops the blogroll at Post Normal Times. Not a mention of WUWT. So much for debate methinks.
[Reply: For those interested in seeing how RealClimate compares with WUWT, click on the Weblog Awards and the Wikio icons at the top right of the home page. ~dbs, mod.]

Al
March 15, 2010 9:47 pm

Interesting idea, but misleading and dangerous, as it tries to legitimize a pseudo scientific process .
Richard Feynman would have described it as ‘Cargo cult science’.
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm
Essentially, climate scientists have more in common with shamans and witchdoctors than chemists or physicists. For that very reason, their standards of integrity and honesty have to be exemplary.
The IPCC climategate scientists were seen to be, not just sloppy but willful, in disregarding their obligations.

1 22 23 24